Author Topic: How does Griffith's mind look after being reborn (human form)  (Read 4877 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

TricksieThiefsie

  • Guest
I've always wondered how Griffith's mind works after being reborn into a physical world. We know that to be a member of the God Hand is to become an emotionless being. They sink into the evil itself which makes them get rid off emotions. I am curious how (if) did he change after coming back. He definitely lost some of his character traits due to being emotionless, since he shows none of the childish glee he used to possess in victory when he was human. Although he had to maintain something from his former self, since he still wanted a kingdom for himself. My point is: how does he see the world now? Is he just emotionless Griffith who is aware of his possibilities and uses them for his own agenda? How does his personality work now?

I really hope that Miura will show him more as an independent person and not just a being driven by a grand scheme without his own personality.



Also I really appreciate the fact that users of this forum take their time to make quality posts.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2016, 05:23:21 PM by TricksieThiefsie »

Offline Aazealh

  • 髑髏の騎士
  • Administrator
  • Of Terror
  • *****
  • Posts: 18399
  • Karma: 624
  • Gender: Male
  • そうはいかぬ
Re: How does Griffith's mind look after being reborn (human form)
« Reply #1 on: July 15, 2016, 05:32:54 PM »
I've always wondered how Griffith's mind works after being reborn into a physical world.

It may help you better understand it if you refer to it more accurately as Femto's mind after being incarnated (receiving a body of flesh) into a new Griffith. Because it's not like the old Griffith from before the Eclipse came back. Femto just stole a body (the child's) and is now wearing a Griffith costume. It's an important distinction to make to understand the character.

We know that to be a member of the God Hand is to become an emotionless being. They sink into the evil itself which makes them get rid off emotions.

I'm not sure being completely emotionless is a requirement for being part of the God Hand. Ubik seems pretty gleeful for example, and Slan isn't emotionless either. But it does make them unbelievably evil and that strips them of certain human qualities. Furthermore, Griffith specifically was already a cold person, and he tried to be as detached as possible during his human life so as not to deal with the consequences of his actions. That trait was strenghtened when he became Femto.

I am curious how (if) did he change after coming back. He definitely lost some of his character traits due to being emotionless, since he shows none of the childish glee he used to possess in victory when he was human. Although he had to maintain something from his former self, since he still wanted a kingdom for himself. My point is: how does he see the world now? Is he just emotionless Griffith who is aware of his possibilities and uses them for his own agenda? How does his personality work now?

He is still Femto. So yeah, he's emotionlessly furthering his agenda. Also, he has attained his objective of ruling a kingdom (although Falconia is more of a city-state), but we should assume that his ambitions go beyond that now. He wanted to be a king when he was a man, but he's much more than just a man now, so his ambition have grown as well. And indeed, his actions haven't actually been solely driven by a desire to be king. What he did during the Millennium Falcon arc fit into a much bigger plan, which is why he unleashed Fantasia upon the world... and in the process, brought in his kindred. His actual end-goal beyond ruling over Falconia is unknown at this point, nor do we know what the God Hand as a whole really wants.

Side note: I'm not touching upon the fact Guts and Casca's son still exists within him because I don't think it's what you're after here, but it's also worth mentioning.

I really hope that Miura will show him more as a independent person and not just a being driven by a grand scheme without his own personality.

Miura has been keeping him as mysterious as possible since the incarnation but I don't think that has made him look less independent or without personality. It's just that he's close to being all-powerful now. How would such a man act? I bet it'd be pretty close to how Griffith is now. :slan:

Offline buttonmasher

Re: How does Griffith's mind look after being reborn (human form)
« Reply #2 on: July 15, 2016, 05:44:12 PM »
I think you're falling into the trap of thinking of the apostles as purely evil.  They seem to all have their character flaws indulged, nurtured, and as a result become more prominent.  As early as the Slug Count we see some emotions as he is obviously struggling with sacrificing Teresa.  Rosine has a very emotional departure and cares deeply for Jill.  Griffiths new generals all have personalities and even Zodd has been shown to be multidimensional. 

I belive Griffith'so ambitions have reached new heights, making him more dangerous than ever.  Considering he is also a member of the GH and not just a lowly apostle we can assume that he has more freedom than apostles. 

Apostles are created differently from members of the GH, however, and so there may room to debate which faction is more "purely evil."  While Apostles wander the land satisfying their various lusts, Griffith is working on a higher plane with a far grander vision. 

So to cut to the chase, Femto is pure unadulterated evil while this form of Griffith is probably much more susceptible to the human condition making him feel and act more human.  While he apparently holds no more regarding for Guts, I'm sure there are other things he cares deeply for and will die to protect.

Offline Aazealh

  • 髑髏の騎士
  • Administrator
  • Of Terror
  • *****
  • Posts: 18399
  • Karma: 624
  • Gender: Male
  • そうはいかぬ
Re: How does Griffith's mind look after being reborn (human form)
« Reply #3 on: July 15, 2016, 05:54:00 PM »
I think you're falling into the trap of thinking of the apostles as purely evil.  They seem to all have their character flaws indulged, nurtured, and as a result become more prominent.  As early as the Slug Count we see some emotions as he is obviously struggling with sacrificing Teresa.  Rosine has a very emotional departure and cares deeply for Jill.  Griffiths new generals all have personalities and even Zodd has been shown to be multidimensional.

They're all still indubitably evil though. That's a defining trait for each of them.

Considering he is also a member of the GH and not just a lowly apostle we can assume that he has more freedom than apostles.

Apostles are free to do as they please, that's their core tenet. So are members of the God Hand.

Apostles are created differently from members of the GH, however, and so there may room to debate which faction is more "purely evil."

The God Hand is more evil. They have more evil power. I don't think the manga leaves us any doubt about that.

So to cut to the chase, Femto is pure unadulterated evil while this form of Griffith is probably much more susceptible to the human condition making him feel and act more human.  While he apparently holds no more regarding for Guts, I'm sure there are other things he cares deeply for and will die to protect.

Oh boy, that's completely wrong on all fronts. Griffith right now is no different from Femto. It's the same person.
And about Guts, while he did tell him he felt nothing, the child inside him (Guts' son) does feel something, which will be a key element when they eventually face against each other. Just like the boy made Griffith protect Casca from falling rocks, he might stop him from hurting his father.

Offline buttonmasher

Re: How does Griffith's mind look after being reborn (human form)
« Reply #4 on: July 15, 2016, 06:13:54 PM »
The God Hand is more evil. They have more evil power. I don't think the manga leaves us any doubt about that.
Yeah the point I was trying to make here was completely lost.  Apostles are people imbued with power while the GH are transcended beings - so when an apostle kills someone they are an asshole but when a GH kills someone it is just their nature.  If a dentist from the midwest kills an giraffe it' a big deal but if a lion does the same thing, well, that's just the way things go.  Maybe there isn't any wiggle room here.
Quote
Oh boy, that's completely wrong on all fronts. Griffith right now is no different from Femto. It's the same person.
And about Guts, while he did tell him he felt nothing, the child inside him (Guts' son) does feel something, which will be a key element when they eventually face against each other. Just like the boy made Griffith protect Casca from falling rocks, he might stop him from hurting his father.

See here's the thing about this for me...Isn't Griffith in a human body?  Similar to Jesus Christ who was simultaneously completely human and completely divine.  Jesus had the full human existential experience while being a deity.   That's why I refer to Griffith/Femto as separate entities -  because Femto(God) does not possess a human body while Griffith(Jesus) does indeed - essentially two parts of the same being.  I may be reading into this incorrectly, but with Griffith being a prophesized mesiah I thought the parallel couldn't be ignored.

I understand that the boy is influencing his actions at times but I hadn't really figured that into the equation.  My point here is that Griffith has established his Kingdom in more than one sense and I'm sure he cares about protecting that very much and is not totally devoid of all emotion.   

« Last Edit: July 15, 2016, 06:43:58 PM by buttonmasher »

Offline ApostleBob

  • Inhuman Cinephile
  • Falconian
  • Of the Nexus
  • *****
  • Posts: 524
  • Karma: 59
  • Gender: Male
Re: How does Griffith's mind look after being reborn (human form)
« Reply #5 on: July 15, 2016, 06:23:40 PM »
They're all still indubitably evil though. That's a defining trait for each of them.

I do think buttonmasher has a nuanced point on whether or not the Apostles are capital E 'Evil.'  Some undoubtedly are such as Wyald, and the Snake Baron. They seem like sadists who do all they do for the enjoyment of screams and others suffering. But we've also seen apostles help fallen human soldiers while they fought Ganishka, get angry at the death of human comrades, and rescue refugees from astral creatures. The relationship between Irvine and Sonia seems to bear this out.

By their very nature, they all have done unforgivable things to become an Apostle. But I don't think Miura is painting with so broad a brush to preclude a level of redemption for some of them. And that's not me wanting it to be true, we see the hinting of this throughout the series. And this may be related to the resolution we see between Griffith and Guts. I'm not expecting forgiveness or apology, but like all things Miura has done so far, there will probably be a bittersweet component to it.

Offline Aazealh

  • 髑髏の騎士
  • Administrator
  • Of Terror
  • *****
  • Posts: 18399
  • Karma: 624
  • Gender: Male
  • そうはいかぬ
Re: How does Griffith's mind look after being reborn (human form)
« Reply #6 on: July 15, 2016, 06:47:00 PM »
Yeah the point I was trying to make here was completely lost.  Apostles are people imbued with power while the GH are transcended beings - so when an apostle kills someone they are an asshole but when a GH kills someone it is just their nature.  If a dentist from the midwest kills an giraffe it' a big deal but if a lion does the same thing, well, that's just the way things go.  Maybe there isn't any wiggle room here.

Ehhh I get what you're saying but I don't know, I'd say killing is also in an apostle's nature, and a member of the God Hand like Femto is also an asshole when he rapes or kills. More importantly though, the members of the God Hand due to their nature aren't governed by the petty instincts of apostles and work on a higher level (influencing humans themselves as a species), for a grander scheme. We just don't really have details on what said scheme is.

See here's the thing about this for me...Isn't Griffith in a human body?  Similar to Jesus Christ who was simultaneously completely human and completely divine.  Jesus had the full human existential experience while being a deity.   That's why I refer to Griffith/Femto as separate entities -  because Femto(God) does not possess a human body while Griffith(Jesus) does indeed.  I may be reading into this incorrectly, but with Griffith being a prophesized mesiah I thought the parallel couldn't be ignored.

There is a parallel to be made, very clearly. But Femto as Griffith isn't experiencing life like Jesus did. Griffith cannot be hurt, and men do not want to hurt him. The only opposition he's had came from a pawn who was set up to oppose him (and prepare the ground for him to save the day) and that was only so that a greater goal (the advent of Fantasia and Falconia) could be accomplished. A better parallel for Griffith than one with Jesus is with the Antichrist, and that's because Griffith isn't actually a savior or a messiah. He's a fraud, a demon in sheep's clothing whose agenda isn't for humanity (or the rest of the world) to flourish.

I understand that the boy is influencing his actions at times but I hadn't really figured that into the equation.  My point here is that Griffith has established his Kingdom in more than one sense and I'm sure he cares about protecting that very much and is not totally devoid of all emotion.

That's the problem though: we don't know whether he feels anything or not. And so far the balance leans more towards "not". In fact, one of the reasons why his merging with the boy is such a great part of the story is because it allows this cold, emotionless character to feel a struggle within himself while he shouldn't have any. From a storytelling perspective, that makes up for a natural deficiency of the character.

Offline ApostleBob

  • Inhuman Cinephile
  • Falconian
  • Of the Nexus
  • *****
  • Posts: 524
  • Karma: 59
  • Gender: Male
Re: How does Griffith's mind look after being reborn (human form)
« Reply #7 on: July 15, 2016, 06:52:35 PM »
See here's the thing about this for me...Isn't Griffith in a human body?  Similar to Jesus Christ who was simultaneously completely human and completely divine.  Jesus had the full human existential experience while being a deity.   That's why I refer to Griffith/Femto as separate entities -  because Femto(God) does not possess a human body while Griffith(Jesus) does indeed - essentially two parts of the same being.  I may be reading into this incorrectly, but with Griffith being a prophesized mesiah I thought the parallel couldn't be ignored.

I used to have this misconception too... But nothing in the series really bears this out.  It's likely that your own culture is influencing the way you're interpreting it. The current Griffith is Femto in a human suit. That's it. There's no Jekell and Hyde thing going on where personalities are changing, or where one is evil and the other is not. Femto is just clever and playing the hero and into everyone's hopes. If you read his parts again, you'll notice that at best he's simply distant and untouchable in personality. Magnificent to the point of being inhuman. Never outwardly friendly, more just polite. He's a devil in angel's clothes.

Offline Aazealh

  • 髑髏の騎士
  • Administrator
  • Of Terror
  • *****
  • Posts: 18399
  • Karma: 624
  • Gender: Male
  • そうはいかぬ
Re: How does Griffith's mind look after being reborn (human form)
« Reply #8 on: July 15, 2016, 06:57:50 PM »
I do think buttonmasher has a nuanced point on whether or not the Apostles are capital E 'Evil.'  Some undoubtedly are such as Wyald, and the Snake Baron. They seem like sadists who do all they do for the enjoyment of screams and others suffering.

Apostles are by definition evil. It is their nature. They literally are monsters. So I'd say that yeah, capital 'E' Evil fits. That doesn't mean they are one dimensional or can't have nuanced personalities. But they are evil, there is no doubt about that. To be honest, arguing about it is ridiculous to me.

But we've also seen apostles help fallen human soldiers while they fought Ganishka, get angry at the death of human comrades, and rescue refugees from astral creatures.

This was an exceptional situation and is pointed out as such in the story, with commentary from Daiba and so on. It does not reflect on the fact apostles aren't monstrous, but rather on the abnormality of what's happening. Currently, where are all those apostles? In the Pandemonium, isolated from the rest of Falconia.

And this may be related to the resolution we see between Griffith and Guts. I'm not expecting forgiveness or apology, but like all things Miura has done so far, there will probably be a bittersweet component to it.

See what I said about the boy. Therein lies the key to the emotional component regarding the final battle.

TricksieThiefsie

  • Guest
Re: How does Griffith's mind look after being reborn (human form)
« Reply #9 on: July 15, 2016, 07:19:43 PM »
How would old Griffith's kingdom look? From what I remember we only know that he wanted a kingdom, but we don't actually know how he would manage it. Was that just a simple desire to rule? Did he want to be a good king?

Offline Aazealh

  • 髑髏の騎士
  • Administrator
  • Of Terror
  • *****
  • Posts: 18399
  • Karma: 624
  • Gender: Male
  • そうはいかぬ
Re: How does Griffith's mind look after being reborn (human form)
« Reply #10 on: July 15, 2016, 07:23:49 PM »
How would old Griffith's kingdom look? From what I remember we only know that he wanted a kingdom, but we don't actually know how would he manage it. Was that just a desire to rule? Did he want to be a good king?

This is purely speculation, obviously, but I imagine it'd be just like Midland, except it'd be a meritocracy. He'd have lowered the barrier between social classes somewhat, so that industrious commoners could rise to better positions, and so incompetent or corrupt nobles would not be above consequences. I don't think he would have been a bad king to his subjects, but his ruthless and arrogant side would have persisted.

Offline Walter

  • 賢者
  • Administrator
  • Of the Abyss
  • *****
  • Posts: 15863
  • Karma: 463
  • Gender: Male
  • Chapter ≠ Episode
Re: How does Griffith's mind look after being reborn (human form)
« Reply #11 on: July 15, 2016, 07:27:35 PM »
How would old Griffith's kingdom look? From what I remember we only know that he wanted a kingdom, but we don't actually know how he would manage it. Was that just a simple desire to rule? Did he want to be a good king?

He was never meant to rule a kingdom as a human, so that alternative future is murky to predict at best.
:femto: :slan: :ubik:

TricksieThiefsie

  • Guest
Re: How does Griffith's mind look after being reborn (human form)
« Reply #12 on: July 15, 2016, 07:34:04 PM »
Well he was portrayed as a bad king, almost a tyrant I think in episode 1 of '97 anime. I know it's not canon, but makes you think why someone can see him like that.

Offline residentgrigo

  • Of the Interstice
  • **
  • Posts: 116
  • Karma: -73
  • Gender: Male
  • Excitement and Enjoyment!
Re: How does Griffith's mind look after being reborn (human form)
« Reply #13 on: July 15, 2016, 07:35:56 PM »
Femto comes off as someone who is wearing a "human suit". He is always staring into a distant horizon, true characterization is rare and he feels like an actor doing his "job". His lines about the tasty nature of Charlotte cakes and some of his more serene moment have a genuine element though. :griffnotevil: is ultimate a character that is used sparingly and needs to be interpreted rather than "read".
Letīs see how much time will pass when we next return. I fully expected a coronation during the last visit to Falconia (what a name!) but donīt expect one now. Will the act of sitting on THE throne of his childhood dreams even mean a thing to a near all powerful demi-god? Insert Just According to Keikaku joke [here].

Offline Walter

  • 賢者
  • Administrator
  • Of the Abyss
  • *****
  • Posts: 15863
  • Karma: 463
  • Gender: Male
  • Chapter ≠ Episode
Re: How does Griffith's mind look after being reborn (human form)
« Reply #14 on: July 15, 2016, 07:41:20 PM »
Well he was portrayed as a bad king, almost a tyrant I think in episode 1 of '97 anime. I know it's not canon, but makes you think why someone can see him like that.

Not only is it not canon -- it's nonsensical.
:femto: :slan: :ubik:

TricksieThiefsie

  • Guest
Re: How does Griffith's mind look after being reborn (human form)
« Reply #15 on: July 15, 2016, 10:01:54 PM »
Not only is it not canon -- it's nonsensical.

Actually I would like see Griffith as a tyrant without Falconia. Maybe something softer than that but it would add some depth to his character, since now he doesn't really do anything on his own and shows no real personality. That is quite a difference though so we would have to get some big changes to the plot I guess.

I think that Griffith getting a normal kingdom and then going for Falconia could be better than what we got. Mostly because as I mentioned earlier - there was no struggle. He is a demon king but he got everything without any effort, that made it pretty boring in my opinion. The only struggle he has ever felt so far after becoming Femto was conceding to Guts and Casca's child. It is going to be his undoing but still, it's not that much now.

Offline Aazealh

  • 髑髏の騎士
  • Administrator
  • Of Terror
  • *****
  • Posts: 18399
  • Karma: 624
  • Gender: Male
  • そうはいかぬ
Re: How does Griffith's mind look after being reborn (human form)
« Reply #16 on: July 15, 2016, 10:29:14 PM »
Actually I would like see Griffith as a tyrant without Falconia.

I'm not quite sure what you're asking for, but Falconia is here to stay.

he doesn't really do anything on his own and shows no real personality.

He's distant and detached, and we're not privy to his thoughts, but that doesn't meant he doesn't do anything himself or has no personality. His interactions with Ganishka were telling, and he intervened himself directly to make Fantasia happen. I'm not going to type a laundry list, but a lot of tiny hints about him have filtered through subtle things over the years since he was incarnated. Also, like I said earlier, the fact he's mostly unreadable isn't an accident, it's by design. He's meant to be mysterious and different from his human self. He is Femto, and his true goals and true personality remain unknown to us at the moment. That adds to his allure as far as I'm concerned.

I think that Griffith getting a normal kingdom and then going for Falconia could be better than what we got. Mostly because as I mentioned earlier - there was no struggle. He is a demon king but he got everything without any effort, that made it pretty boring in my opinion. The only struggle he has ever felt so far after becoming Femto was conceding to Guts and Casca's child. It is going to be his undoing but still, it's not that much now.

First off, I'm glad you're not writing the story. Second, you actually call the Millennium Falcon arc boring? Really? The apostle army assembling in Shet, Ganishka's nightmarish restyling of Wyndham, the Holy See assembling in Vritannis and the Kushans' subsequent attacks (with the Pishacha and then the regular army), Griffith's reversal of the situation, and then Ganishka's unthinkable transformation into "Shiva", the titanic battle of the apostles and humans against Ganishka's spawns and Femto's unleashing of the Astral World... culminating with the reveal of the World Spiral Tree and Falconia. You call that boring? Wow.

That aside, I think you're mistaken about Griffith's role in the story. He's the antagonist. He's not the one meant to be struggling; that's Guts. Guts struggles in the mud while Griffith soars in the sky, that's how Berserk was conceived. Griffith is meant to be all-successful and unattainable... until Guts gets to him anyway.

TricksieThiefsie

  • Guest
Re: How does Griffith's mind look after being reborn (human form)
« Reply #17 on: July 15, 2016, 10:51:12 PM »
Quote
First off, I'm glad you're not writing the story. Second, you actually call the Millennium Falcon arc boring? Really? The apostle army assembling in Shet, Ganishka's nightmarish restyling of Wyndham, the Holy See assembling in Vritannis and the Kushans' subsequent attacks (with the Pishacha and then the regular army), Griffith's reversal of the situation, and then Ganishka's unthinkable transformation into "Shiva", the titanic battle of the apostles and humans against Ganishka's spawns and Femto's unleashing of the Astral World... culminating with the reveal of the World Spiral Tree and Falconia. You call that boring? Wow.

That aside, I think you're mistaken about Griffith's role in the story. He's the antagonist. He's not the one meant to be struggling; that's Guts. Guts struggles in the mud while Griffith soars in the sky, that's how Berserk was conceived.

Well, I am not glad that you see Miura as someone who doesn't do mistakes, at least I am getting that vibe. The events you mentioned aren't boring themselves, the boring part is about Griffith. He is so overpowered that literally nothing could stand in his way. Many people wanted Ganishka to oppose him and even he couldn't do that. Being invincible is boring by default and it's a fact, because there is no tension, you do what you want. You'll tell me that it is a part of the story - yes, a pretty boring part. You know, I havent been thinking much about Griffith, he was just mysterious kind of a character who has an agenda yet to be shown. Now after taking more time with that, I think Griffith seems to be like a shounen character. No real personality, he is just there, reminding Guts that he exists but thats it. That was a challenge for Miura, to make someone who is untouchable interesting and have his own struggles. The only interesting part about Griffith is that we dont know what is he thinking at the moment. Thats nice and all, but thats really it.

Maybe the author didnt care much, maybe he has a grand plan for Griffith that will redeem him as a character, but now its not that interesting. Golden Age Griffith was a lot better in almost every regard.

Then you may ask - how can Griffith be improved if he is meant to be an emotionless shell? Well, first of all he didnt have to be like that. I see it as a mistake, but seeing how Miura drags it on, I guess its just his vision. Another thing is to give more hints than we get now, but that is not easy because it has to be logical somehow.

Anyway try to see it at different angles, it's not like everything the author of Berserk has done is perfect.

Offline Aazealh

  • 髑髏の騎士
  • Administrator
  • Of Terror
  • *****
  • Posts: 18399
  • Karma: 624
  • Gender: Male
  • そうはいかぬ
Re: How does Griffith's mind look after being reborn (human form)
« Reply #18 on: July 15, 2016, 11:00:05 PM »
Anyway try to see it at different angles, it's not like everything the author of Berserk has done is perfect.

You know, I actually wonder why you're reading Berserk at all. I mean I don't have to see things at "different angles", because I'm pretty damn sure I see more angles to Berserk than you ever will. You're entitled to your opinion of course, and if you think Griffith is boring then there's not much I can respond except that your opinion sucks. But I'm curious why someone who hates Casca and finds Griffith boring is reading this series. I'm sure you also have secret complaints about other key characters, so I think maybe this just isn't the right series for you? I'm just laying it here because there's nothing else for me to say, I'm not going to argue with you about why the story is interesting if it's not obvious to you just by reading it.

TricksieThiefsie

  • Guest
Re: How does Griffith's mind look after being reborn (human form)
« Reply #19 on: July 15, 2016, 11:18:07 PM »
You know, I actually wonder why you're reading Berserk at all. I mean I don't have to see things at "different angles", because I'm pretty damn sure I see more angles to Berserk than you ever will. You're entitled to your opinion of course, and if you think Griffith is boring then there's not much I can respond except that your opinion sucks. But I'm curious why someone who hates Casca and finds Griffith boring is reading this series. I'm sure you also have secret complaints about other key characters, so I think maybe this just isn't the right series for you? I'm just laying it here because there's nothing else for me to say, I'm not going to argue with you about why the story is interesting if it's not obvious to you just by reading it.

You think about yourself as a superior, it definitely shows.You disregard every opinion that is opposing your way of thinking in way that you almost disregard it entirely. I understand that. You see more than me, you know more than me, I will never be as cool as you, but dont tell me what is for me or not, because i dont appreciate those kinds of things. Maybe its not so obvious for you (although it should be considering how smart you are), but to appreciate the true work of art is to embrace and understand its flaws. Maybe I am not right in everything I am saying in this thread, but at least I am trying to think about it critically. For you discussing Berserk is just to discuss plot points and characters, but to actually see out of that picture? You dont strike me as a person who lives in his little comfort zone but it seems like you really do.

As I see it now, there is no point in discussing anything with you, if it clashes with your opinions. I hope at least a small part of this will sink into your head and you will actually consider something out of your mind as something valuable.

Offline Aazealh

  • 髑髏の騎士
  • Administrator
  • Of Terror
  • *****
  • Posts: 18399
  • Karma: 624
  • Gender: Male
  • そうはいかぬ
Re: How does Griffith's mind look after being reborn (human form)
« Reply #20 on: July 15, 2016, 11:54:25 PM »
You think about yourself as a superior, it definitely shows.

Oh so this is about me now? I'm an administrator of this forum, its most prolific poster, am involved into all aspects of the community, and I've been a fan of Berserk for over 15 years. I value my own opinion more than that of a newcomer who probably found out about the series by reading it in one sitting 6 months ago, and whose posts consist of a long series of misconceptions about the main characters of the series. Do you honestly expect anything different? Since you're good at viewing things from different angles, try to imagine what things would be like if our roles were reversed. Maybe you'll see then how nice I actually am with you.

You disregard every opinion that is opposing your way of thinking in way that you almost disregard it entirely. I understand that. You see more than me, you know more than me, I will never be as cool as you, but dont tell me what is for me or not, because i dont appreciate those kinds of things.

Look, it's not just me here, we're all trying to explain to you what you asked for in the first place. But you're not listening. I think I've done a good job of explaining you why Griffith is the way he is. Being cold and detached isn't an absence of personality. It is his personality. It is what defines his character since he became Femto. Even then, throughout his many interactions, the careful reader can get a feel of what kind of person he really is. And yet he remains to us a mystery, and I find that pretty cool. If I didn't, I wouldn't have spent the past 15 years reading Berserk.

You also say what's happened with him has been boring and call him a "shounen character", even though what you would have preferred is a stereotypical villain, a tyrant cackling in the "normal castle" of his "normal kingdom". Well I fucking disagree. I think your vision sucks, is unoriginal and actually conforms perfectly to a million uninteresting "shounen characters" that already exist. And I think what Miura has done with Griffith in the Millennium Falcon arc and the Fantasia arc so far has been fucking stellar. Again, I wouldn't have kept reading the series for over 15 years if it hadn't been the case.

What I think is that you're just disappointed the story didn't go the way you would have wanted it to. You wanted a lame story with uninteresting developments because you lack imagination, and you can't appreciate the caviar you've been served instead of the 50 cents hot dog you expected. And so I'm doing you a favor by telling you to forget about Berserk now, because the story will never be what you want it to. Even the parts you think you like aren't really what you believe them to be, and if you read them again and pay close attention, you may notice it. Now since you're depicting yourself as the better man here, I hope you don't disregard my opinion. That wouldn't be nice of you.

Maybe its not so obvious for you (although it should be considering how smart you are), but to appreciate the true work of art is to embrace and understand its flaws. Maybe I am not right in everything I am saying in this thread, but at least I am trying to think about it critically. For you discussing Berserk is just to discuss plot points and characters, but to actually see out of that picture?

It sounds like you believe you've laid down some kind of high level critique here. I regret to inform you that you did not.

As I see it now, there is no point in discussing anything with you, if it clashes with your opinions. I hope at least a small part of this will sink into your head and you will actually consider something out of your mind as something valuable.

A discussion is an exchange of ideas and points of view. If you expect a discussion to be me agreeing with everything you say, even when it's basically that Berserk sucks, then no we can't have a "discussion". And no, there is nothing valuable for me in this thread, or in any interaction I've had with you so far. But I don't begrudge that.

TricksieThiefsie

  • Guest
Re: How does Griffith's mind look after being reborn (human form)
« Reply #21 on: July 16, 2016, 12:09:53 AM »
Quote
Oh so this is about me now? I'm an administrator of this forum, its most prolific poster, am involved into all aspects of the community, and I've been a fan of Berserk for over 15 years. I value my own opinion more than that of a newcomer who probably found out about the series by reading it in one sitting a month ago, and whose posts (including the very first one) consist of a long series of misconceptions about the main characters of the series. Do you honestly expect anything different? Since you're good at viewing things from different angles, try to imagine what things would be like if our roles were reversed. Maybe you'll see then how nice I actually am with you.

I know that. We are more alike than you would ever think and thats why I brought up this topic. I just know what kind of mess it can bring when you are too deep within yourself when it comes to discussions. I dont blame you because its pretty typical to feel better than someone based on various things. As I said though, its very destructive when it comes to discussing things with different people.

I can also admit that you have done much more than anyone on this forum and I can see that. Kudos to you for all those years of your insight.

Quote
You also say what's happened with him has been boring and call him a "shounen character", even though what you would have preferred is a stereotypical villain, a tyrant cackling in the "normal castle" of his "normal kingdom". Well I fucking disagree. I think your vision sucks, is unoriginal and actually conforms perfectly to a million uninteresting "shounen characters" that already exist. And I think what Miura has done with Griffith in the Millennium Falcon arc and the Fantasia arc so far has been fucking stellar. Again, I wouldn't have kept reading the series for over 15 years if it hadn't been the case.

You have jumped to a conclusion to early. I dont want a typical, mustache twirling villain. I want someone who can stand on his own not only by his looks, but also for his personality. Griffith seems to be empty now, to the point he has become not so interesting he used to be. Its not even because he is different, he actually didnt gain anything from being Femto. It brought up his arrogance and that stuff more but thats it.


Quote
It sounds like you believe you're laid down some kind of high level critique here. I regret to inform you that you did not.

No, that was a basic critique. Even that seems hurtful for you.

Quote
A discussion is an exchange of ideas and points of view. If you expect a discussion to be me agreeing with everything you say, even when it's basically that Berserk sucks, then no we can't have a "discussion". And no, there is nothing valuable for me in this thread, or in any interaction I've had with you so far. But I don't begrudge that.

This is exactly what you do, you expect me to agree with you, because you see yourself as one who has better understanding of everything. You will also disregard everything Ive said now just because I havent read this manga 10000 times. Whats the point then? Tell me.

Offline Oburi

  • Falconian
  • Of the Abyss
  • *****
  • Posts: 2729
  • Karma: 59
  • Gender: Male
  • All praise Grail
Re: How does Griffith's mind look after being reborn (human form)
« Reply #22 on: July 16, 2016, 12:10:17 AM »
Well, I am not glad that you see Miura as someone who doesn't do mistakes, at least I am getting that vibe.
Anyway try to see it at different angles, it's not like everything the author of Berserk has done is perfect.

Your failure to see Griffith/Femto as an interesting character isn't Miura's mistake. It's not really a popular opinion here (especially on forum dedicated to Berserk, CRAZY RIGHT), but that doesn't mean everyone else is wrong and not being critical enough. We all love this series here, and believe me, if you read through past threads over the years there's plenty of members that have been critical about different things, including the admins. Just look at the anime thread that's active right now. Obviously, if something is wrong or if it sucks, nobody is afraid to call it out. But what you're talking, the MAIN antagonist of the series being boring, well yea ok it's your opinion and I'm sorry you feel that way, but you're not going to convince anyone else here, because it's not an opinion held by anyone else here. You think Griffith was more interesting when he was human and he had to work to obtain his Kingdom. Great, got it. Femto is a slightly different character that us readers don't get to experience the same way as we did when Griffith was human. Honestly, how would that work anyway? Femto is a member of the God Hand, don't you think it would be silly if we got insight into is thoughts and such like we did for Griffith in the Golden Age? He is suppose to be detached, out of reach, beyond our understanding. Should we get Void's inner monologue too when he saw Skullknight? That's way more boring and typical of a villain. It's just not how the story is. I'm sorry that's boring to you but I have to agree, I'm glad you're not in charge here.


Offline Aazealh

  • 髑髏の騎士
  • Administrator
  • Of Terror
  • *****
  • Posts: 18399
  • Karma: 624
  • Gender: Male
  • そうはいかぬ
Re: How does Griffith's mind look after being reborn (human form)
« Reply #23 on: July 16, 2016, 12:29:07 AM »
I dont blame you because its pretty typical to feel better than someone based on various things. As I said though, its very destructive when it comes to discussing things with different people.

But I don't think I'm better than you. I just know Berserk better than you do. Big difference. I'm not 14 years old and I don't think of knowledge as a measure of greatness.

You have jumped to a conclusion to early. I dont want a typical, mustache twirling villain. I want someone who can stand on his own not only by his looks, but also for his personality. Griffith seems to be empty now, to the point he has become not so interesting he used to be. Its not even because he is different, he actually didnt gain anything from being Femto. It brought up his arrogance and that stuff more but thats it.

He gained power, and he's been using that power. But he's also lost a part of his humanity. And that's how it's meant to be. I'm just repeating what I've already said here so I don't want to ramble on. The fact Griffith seems empty to you is because he's unreadable. He's not human anymore, he's alien. He's Femto. He looks otherworldly, and like he's above it all. Because he actually is. And he's like a fairytale hero who always wins... because the "fairytale" was set up in advance so he would always win. All of that is key to the story, and that's what he gained by becoming Femto. I don't know what more to tell you other than I like how that was done, and I find Griffith's alienness actually interesting, meaningful and logical.

No, that was a basic critique. Even that seems hurtful for you.

It's not hurtful at all, I just don't think it's true.

This is exactly what you do, you expect me to agree with you, because you see yourself as one who has better understanding of everything. You will also disregard everything Ive said now just because I havent read this manga 10000 times. Whats the point then? Tell me.

Look we're not going to spend hours on this. I do think I have a better understanding, not of everything, but of Berserk. But that's besides the point. I don't care how many times you've read Berserk. All I care is about what you're saying. I disagree with some of the things you've said, so I've responded to tell you about it. That's literally how a discussion works. Sometimes people agree, sometimes they disagree. Here I disagree. We disagree. You also keep replying to tell me I'm wrong, don't you? By the way, you know what I'd do if I truly disregarded what you were saying? I'd ignore you. I wouldn't bother talking to you. But I do.

TricksieThiefsie

  • Guest
Re: How does Griffith's mind look after being reborn (human form)
« Reply #24 on: July 16, 2016, 12:50:08 AM »
Quote
But I don't think I'm better than you. I just know Berserk better than you do. Big difference. I'm not 14 years old and I don't think of knowledge as a measure of greatness.

What do you think is a measure of greatness then, because it seems you value knowledge very much, at least when its related to Berserk.

Quote
He gained power, and he's been using that power. But he's also lost a part of his humanity. And that's how it's meant to be. I'm just repeating what I've already said here so I don't want to ramble on. The fact Griffith seems empty to you is because he's unreadable. He's not human anymore, he's alien. He's Femto. He looks otherworldly, and like he's above it all. Because he actually is. And he's like a fairytale hero who always wins... because the "fairytale" was set up in advance so he would always win. All of that is key to the story, and that's what he gained by becoming Femto. I don't know what more to tell you other than I like how that was done, and I find Griffith's alienness actually interesting, meaningful and logical.

I know that and I like Griffith for this otherwordly feeling but at the same time it seems lazy. I mean, he is the antagonist of this series and he is reduced now to a character that we have to imagine ourselves. Him being too abstract is a good thing if you get something else in return but we dont get anything really. Thats the whole point, we are meant to be far from him but we dont get anything for that. Also we got some (not much)insight into other God Hand members.

Well, there are definitely different viewpoints on this character. If you like him as a being who is so godly that we cant understand what the fuck is going on, he is interesting, compelling even. But this is where you have failed, because you said that my viewpoint sucks. I dont think the same about you.

Quote
Look we're not going to spend hours on this. I do think I have a better understanding, not of everything, but of Berserk. But that's besides the point. I don't care how many times you've read Berserk. All I care is about what you're saying. I disagree with some of the things you've said, so I've responded to tell you about it. That's literally how a discussion works. Sometimes people agree, sometimes they disagree. Here I disagree. We disagree. You also keep replying to tell me I'm wrong, don't you? By the way, you know what I'd do if I truly disregarded what you were saying? I'd ignore you. I wouldn't bother talking to you. But I do.

I wont change your ways and you wont change mine, because we are who we are. Even so I wish you the best of luck in serving as a guide to Berserk world, everyone deserves to enjoy this series.