I find it odd that someone wants to get so literal about this when the creator of the series has banged the point home multiple times, and it's even placed outside the story in descriptions of the volumes. [...] The dirt in the new world is the same as the old one, but for the people involved in the story, in the big picture, and the way it is being presented is as a new world. The old one with its order and the old reality as a whole are being torn apart and replaced.
I think you're trying to confuse the issue here. Fantasia being described as a "new world" by characters in the story and you saying that Griffith's goal was to
create an entirely new world like an omnipotent god would are two different things. The word "entirely" matters here, and I disagree with what you said in the context you said it. I also think I've given you good reasons why, in the big picture, this world isn't
entirely new. Like the fact, as Ged mentions in this episode, the world used to be like that long ago. That Fantasia is a "new" world in the immediate context of the story isn't up for debate, but that's not my point.
Curious - do you think Griffith and Femto are one in the same, or is Femto different from Griffith in your view?
Hahaha, you're cute. Yes, Femto and Griffith are one
and the same, with the critical exception of Guts and Casca's son. My thoughts on the matter (which are merely me stating a fact) have been all over this forum for over a decade, and are reiterated so often I might have said it last week for all I know. Of course I assume you're speaking about the new Griffith here, the one Femto was incarnated into. The original, human Griffith underwent a pretty drastic transformation when he became Femto. Hence the change of names, and the fact Femto was "born" from Griffith.
I interpret Berserk in terms of symbols and ideas based on what is presented in the manga. If there's evidence contradicting my views, I accept it and try to see what Miura is saying. But I don't think meaning is derived from treating what is said as encyclopedic.
So you're divining omens based on chicken bones is what you're saying? As opposed to stupidly reading from the book like
some people. Yet in our exchange just above, you were the one quoting lines to justify what you said, while I was telling you the context mattered. So who's who here in the end?
What the Holy See worships remains unclear.
Are you saying the Holy See doesn't worship the Falcon of Light? Him being their prophecized savior is all over the story, and their holy symbol itself is shaped like a falcon... The Pontiff publicly groveled before him on their first meeting, etc.
Yet its odd to think that the Idea of Evil brought about the Holy See in some way, presumably views itself as God given the content revealed so far, and yet it has no place in its religion.
It's not that odd if you think a little. What does the Idea of Evil have to gain by being worshipped directly? From the content revealed so far in the story, nothing. It exists regardless, and its power isn't affected by people's prayers. On the other hand, it greatly benefits from the effects the Holy See has had on people's conception of the world (obfuscating the real powers at play), and obviously that religion has played an important role in furthering its plans since it blindly follows Griffith, one of its agents. Going further than that, the various heretics we've seen in Berserk directly oppose the Holy See, but know that also works in the God Hand's favor (and therefore the Idea of Evil's). I could talk about the Kushans as well but it doesn't matter, the point is that while the Holy See is definitely tied to the God Hand and therefore the Idea of Evil (even through imagery, as their symbol is reminiscent of the Brand and the IoE's double helix), so far nothing in the story implies the IoE is being directly worshipped by it.
There is an issue I have here where ideas get shot down definitively, and its not really based on the source material. So a statement such as as far as we currently know, this isn't true when we don't know at all doesn't hold water. We know nothing, and there's nothing indicating it isn't. There's at least some things I have pointed to that indicate there is some connection.
Basing your entire speculation or theory on unknown elements isn't the surest way for it to hold water. For example, we don't know that the Skull Knight isn't a robot, but he still isn't. That aside, I don't think you've made a convincing case, otherwise I would agree with you. But it's also fine if we disagree, exchanging ideas is what this place is all about. It's normal that not everyone thinks the same.
Except we just learned last chapter they are serving a greater purpose in maintaining order between the two worlds. And presumably intentionally. And they form pacts with the other world. If you want to view it as completely different, by all means. But I see parallels there.
I have told you before: the individual issues of Berserk are called episodes (話), not chapters ((章). Chapters refer to collections of episodes, like the current Chapter of the Elf Island. I would expect someone theorizing on the big picture in Berserk to get such details right. Moving on...
Try as you might, your sentence:
"If there are beings in the Astral world which are opposite to the Idea of Evil in some sense, magic users are tapping into it a bit like the Apostles with the Idea of Evil." is far-fetched and will remain so. Like I have stated before, no direct opposition to the Idea of Evil has been made evident at this point in the story (it's a more asymmetrical relation), and beyond that, the way magic users enlist the help of spiritual entities, or just use their knowledge of the world to achieve a result, works really completely differently from how apostles are created. And if I wanted to nitpick, I'd point out that apostles don't "tap into" the Idea of Evil. They are "chosen" and their lives manipulated in such a way that they sacrifice what they hold most dear, receiving in exchange evil power (based on human karma) that permanently twists their soul. The fact magic users might have sealed the World Spiral Tree away in the past or played a role in keeping it at bay does not change anything in that regard.
You know, one can find parallels in everything, but they're not always worth mentioning. Guts has a sword, so does Roderick. That's a parallel right there. Is it relevant? Does it matter at all? No.
1. As far as what's been revealed so far, it seems like the entire Astral world is created by man in a similar way as the Idea of Evil.
I have to disagree with that, actually. There are a few references in the story to the fact the Astral world is filled with the legends, myths and dreams that haunt people's minds. However, several elements show that it wasn't "created by man". The first and most obvious is the fact the Berserk world is divided into three worlds or realms: Corporeal, Astral, Ideal. When people die their souls go through these in order, and they've been established as basically being foundational elements of that universe. The second elements reinforces that notion: the four kings rule over the basic elements of fire, water, earth and air. These entities, alongside more minor spiritual beings like the Lady of the Depths, are shown to be pretty independent creatures whose existence isn't tied to people remembering them. Then there's the fact the Astral and Corporeal worlds were merged in times long past. While we don't know whether the world's existence began like that or whether it's cyclical and so on, the current implication is that separation may have been made-man.
Then there's two ways to view the references to astral creatures existing in people's minds. Either the Astral world subsisted in people's unconscious despite being cut off from the Corporeal world, or people's imagination and dreams, when strong enough, led to the birth of astral creatures (but the Astral world itself already existed, and so did some types of entities, maybe the most ethereal ones). A mix of both is also possible and the most likely to me.
2. The world before wasn't 'good.' And I would reference that good in Berserk isn't really stereotypical good.
Sure. Although I think it's important to keep in mind what I said about "evil" referring to "evil power" or "evil magic". People often get bogged down in philosophical debates about good and evil when the context of evil in Berserk is pretty specific most of the time. Which is why "good" isn't as clearly defined.
3. The outside, the chaos isn't purely good or evil. But there is freedom there.
Yeah obviously. I feel I must point out that it's not clear yet to what extent Falconia limits individual freedoms though, or even how chaotic the outside world really is (I would expect there to be a semblance of order similar to that of the animal kingdom).
Do you reject that Miura draws contrasts between Guts and Griffith? And if Griffith is the false savior, then perhaps what he's saving people from isn't all bad in Miura's view. But it isn't meant to be some cliche of good, either.
Come on, please don't insult me with fallacious questions. I think I made pretty clear what I reject. That aside, I agree with your logic here (and I have myself stated such things years ago).
But you did say in your previous post that "[e]vil is pretty clear-cut in Berserk." So if Griffith is evil, an anti-savior, then it kind of makes sense that the world he is building, or however you want to describe his (new?) dream is evil. Whatever he is ushering in is called the Age of Darkness so that's not too ambiguous to me. So I would think the characteristics of what Griffith/Femto is building would be a good indicator of what Miura is trying to say with the story about evil.
What you state here is all correct, however I have two remarks. The first one is that we don't know what the end-goal of Falconia is yet. I think it still holds some surprises for us. The second is that the core of my point to you was that I don't think your deduction that order=evil and chaos=good is valid. I've given you plenty of reasons why in my previous post, but I'll also point you to episode 301, titled "Chaos". Chaos is how is described the cooperation of humans and apostles. My own beliefs, which I've again stated many times before, are that the opposition will take a form more like "the natural order of things" VS "the human-centric, Idea of Evil-controlled order of things". And that is shown to some extent, I believe, by the opposition between the elemental magic wielded by Schierke and her kind and the kind of human-based, evil magic that powers the Idea of Evil, the God Hand, and the apostles.
My own beliefs may influence my interpretations here, but I see a pretty sterile existence where people are accepting the safety and luxury of Falconia blindly in exchange for presumably their freedom.
I completely understand what you're getting at, and like I told you in a previous post I have myself speculated along those lines before. The thought of an absolute control over mankind feels like it would perfectly fit into the Idea of Evil's schemes. What bothers me about your idea is the notion of a true utopia where there would be no despair, no sorrow, no fear, no suffering. According to episode 83, those are what fuel the Idea of Evil, what ties it to mankind. Maybe this is where the canon will diverge from it, but I still think it would be a strange development. If all of humanity were to live free of strife and negative thought, would that tie subsist? So I think those need to remain even in such a scenario. Basically, humans being content to merely live bland, meaningless lives isn't bad enough, in my opinion.
