Author Topic: Episode 345  (Read 27972 times)

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Offline Defengar

Re: Episode 345
« Reply #100 on: July 26, 2016, 02:36:17 AM »
What Ganishka did wasn't a sacrifice. And what you propose doesn't sound very likely -- Griffith would rule over the... what, 5% left of the planet's population? That doesn't sound like a doable endgame for Berserk.

I think it would be very limiting, if not misleading, to subscribe to that way of thinking about these supernatural beings in a fantasy story. Were they once human? Certainly, but I think their lack of empathy for others doesn't weigh as heavily on their motivations as all the other factors at play.

Meaning... what? That he has to abide by that character's arc?

Ruling over the remnants of humanity is inconsequential compared to ruling the laws of reality on Earth. Ever read "I Have No Mouth and I Must Scream"?

 As for what I mean, I mean I think that the very existence and ruling of humans is probably inconsequential to him compared to his new goals in the long run. New "subjects" would be trivial to create if he transcends to a state of borderline omnipotence. If you are God, does it really matter that you banish countless millions of Angels and souls to Hell? Absolutely not. Also there is nothing wrong in drawing parallels between characters in fiction that bear similarities.

Offline Sikorsky87

Re: Episode 345
« Reply #101 on: July 26, 2016, 03:46:06 AM »
Great episode. I especially enjoyed the explanation of the "great trees".

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Re: Episode 345
« Reply #102 on: July 26, 2016, 08:21:38 AM »
The Tree of Life/Helix Tree binds all the worlds together, but if it's too strong it pulls them too close together so they overlap and create chaos. Is this how it works? Does the Tree itself called the Dragon's Road? Or it has the Dragon's Road somewhere at it's base similar to how Elfin Forrest was illustrated?

Did I understood correctly that the Dragon's Road is a separate phenomenon and could appear or be opened not only via Beherit activation or Helix Tree appearance? The concept of the Dragon's Road kind of makes the creation of the first Godhand member a bit more comprehensible. The first Godhand member could have found the entrance or was able to open the Dragon's Road and had the first contact with IoE (either became an apostle straight away as a result, or the entrance was "weak" enough to just receive the crimson Beherit). Maybe closing or opening a fissure like that was the reason behind the Gaiseric's Empire Capital destruction. I wonder if Guts will ever go down the Dragon's Road to the Abyss at some point, to meet with the Idea personally? We saw in ep 83 that Griffith appeared before the Idea as his ego body, so I wonder if the Beast of Darkness could get a nice little chat with the Idea at some point?

If the Helix Tree's power could be drained by the Spirit Trees, could some other entity do something similar? I mean feed on it's power. We saw Moonlight Child's ability to enter into the Tree and travel within it and we saw his extraordinary powers. I wonder if he has such abilities because he's just using Femto's powers, or he has a special access to the Tree and this is what gives him his abilities? Could the Tree provide the combined ultimate power from all the worlds that it's connected to? Something like this could be a "deus ex machina" type of thing with the Moonlight Child.

I hope Griffith won't turn out to be "more power because power" type of stereotypical villain and he will have some twist to his goals and motivation in the end. I guess we'll know a bit more about it once he will get married to Charlotte and his wish will be "officially" granted. Hope he will not betray his dream, as he said.

Offline MrFlibble

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Re: Episode 345
« Reply #103 on: July 26, 2016, 08:37:52 AM »
If Falconia, and thus its residents, are merely a stepping stone for him transcending the God Hand, then why would they make valid sacrifices...? Particulary if you regard him as a sociopath (he's not -- he's a demigod who shed his emotions), it wouldn't work by the rules of what makes a sacrifice.

Also Griffith is a God Hand, he's the most powerful being in the world, what would he have to gain by transforming again?

Offline Defengar

Re: Episode 345
« Reply #104 on: July 26, 2016, 10:14:38 AM »
Also Griffith is a God Hand, he's the most powerful being in the world, what would he have to gain by transforming again?

Perhaps becoming something similar to the Idea of Evil, but not reliant upon the emotions of humans to exist.

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Episode 345
« Reply #105 on: July 26, 2016, 10:40:09 AM »
Griffith, like many conquerors of history, is not satisfied after accomplishing his initial aims

His goals changed when he became Femto, which is only natural. That's all there is to it.

My theory is that his goal now is to use Falconia as a giant sacrificial altar to achieve even greater power; sacrificing almost the entire rest of the human species (and maybe even his army of Apostles) during a third eclipse event in order to transcend the God Hand, to become a true "god" himself that can wield omnipotent power over reality and magic.

Your "theory" doesn't seem to take into account the way sacrifices work to begin with. What you propose is simply not possible within the constraints of the story.

Also if he kills almost all of mankind, the idea of evil (if it's even still a thing) would become massively diminished. A spiritual power vacuum could potentially happen that Griffith sees himself as filling...

That's not how it works. Not only do you not know whether the Idea of Evil would be diminished at all (since it would only mean more souls for the vortex), but it's not like Femto could ever hope to replace it. They're fundamentally very different types of beings. Oh and also the Idea of Evil gave Femto his power, you know? And likely planned the entire life he's been living so far?

I mean I think that the very existence and ruling of humans is probably inconsequential to him compared to his new goals in the long run. New "subjects" would be trivial to create if he transcends to a state of borderline omnipotence. If you are God, does it really matter that you banish countless millions of Angels and souls to Hell?

You don't know what Griffith's goals are. "The ruling of humans is probably inconsequential to him?" I don't think so. Lastly, I don't think you quite understand how "God" works in Berserk either, because the Idea of Evil isn't omnipotent. If it were, there would be no story. Maybe it seeks a kind of omnipotence, but it hasn't reached it yet, and merely "sacrificing" people certainly won't allow Femto to do so himself.

Perhaps becoming something similar to the Idea of Evil, but not reliant upon the emotions of humans to exist.

That's not possible within the story of Berserk as far as we know.

------------

The Tree of Life/Helix Tree

The name is World Spiral Tree. World Helix Tree if you really want, but not "Tree of Life". Use the proper name.

it binds all the worlds together, but if it's too strong it pulls them too close together so they overlap and create chaos. Is this how it works?

No, it's not. The tree goes through the worlds, and it is like a crack in the corporeal world from which the astral world spilled.

Does the Tree itself called the Dragon's Road? Or it has the Dragon's Road somewhere at it's base similar to how Elfin Forrest was illustrated?

The name "road of dragons" refers to a way to reach deep into the Astral World, as opposed to the "road of elves", which allows to reach shallow parts of it. The tree itself is not called the "road of dragons", it is called the World Spiral Tree.

Did I understood correctly that the Dragon's Road is a separate phenomenon and could appear or be opened not only via Beherit activation or Helix Tree appearance?

The name "road of dragons" is a general designation referring to a way to reach deep into the Astral World. From what is implied in this episode, there exist several different ways to travel on this road. A beherit is one. The branches of the tree are another.

The concept of the Dragon's Road kind of makes the creation of the first Godhand member a bit more comprehensible. The first Godhand member could have found the entrance or was able to open the Dragon's Road and had the first contact with IoE (either became an apostle straight away as a result, or the entrance was "weak" enough to just receive the crimson Beherit).

The first member of the God Hand became an apostle? I don't think so. I also don't think learning of the name "road of dragons" changes all that much regarding what we understand of the world. By that I mean that traveling deep within the Astral World wasn't considered impossible before.

Maybe closing or opening a fissure like that was the reason behind the Gaiseric's Empire Capital destruction.

That would have to be a really, really big fissure, on the order of the World Spiral Tree itself. Otherwise I don't see how the scale would match. But even then I'm not convinced. What of the branded corpses, for examples? Clearly there was more to it than what you're proposing.

I wonder if Guts will ever go down the Dragon's Road to the Abyss at some point, to meet with the Idea personally? We saw in ep 83 that Griffith appeared before the Idea as his ego body, so I wonder if the Beast of Darkness could get a nice little chat with the Idea at some point?

Uhhh... The Beast of Darkness isn't Guts' ego. I'm also not sure there would be much of a point to this, or that it would even be possible.

If the Helix Tree's power could be drained by the Spirit Trees, could some other entity do something similar? I mean feed on it's power. We saw Moonlight Child's ability to enter into the Tree and travel within it and we saw his extraordinary powers. I wonder if he has such abilities because he's just using Femto's powers, or he has a special access to the Tree and this is what gives him his abilities? Could the Tree provide the combined ultimate power from all the worlds that it's connected to? Something like this could be a "deus ex machina" type of thing with the Moonlight Child.

The "Boy in the Moonlight" (the proper name) already had those powers before the World Spiral Tree appeared. It is more likely that his already formidable power allows to travel through the tree rather than the opposite.

I hope Griffith won't turn out to be "more power because power" type of stereotypical villain and he will have some twist to his goals and motivation in the end. I guess we'll know a bit more about it once he will get married to Charlotte and his wish will be "officially" granted. Hope he will not betray his dream, as he said.

Griffith hasn't been a stereotypical villain so far, so there's no reason for him to become one in the future. That he is defined by his insatiable ambition is nothing new. That he doesn't just want a kingdom is nothing new. By the same token, merely seeing his marriage with Charlotte is unlikely to shed light on his ulterior motives.

Offline ABH

Re: Episode 345
« Reply #106 on: July 26, 2016, 11:29:00 AM »
What I'm posting isn't necessarily new or innovative but seems to fit the conversation.

When it comes to Griffith's new goal, one thing above creating your own kingdom or even ruling the world to me seems to be the creation of an entirely new one. Which seems to be what the story is getting at for some time. There is a new age dawning - one of darkness - created by Griffith. The reality that people have known for at least 1,000 years is being undone and recreated by Griffith who in turn is making the humans that remain dependent upon him for their safety. That all really ties back into one of the major themes of Berserk - being strong enough to make your own way, live your life as you please, rather than just being dependent or clinging to others.

Griffith's vision seems to fit in perfectly with what the Idea of Evil would want. One would think that it would in fact be stronger in this new world created by Griffith and that the events of the last 1,000 years at least were all set-up to get to this point. If the Holy See is worshiping the Idea of Evil or some version of it, it served the purpose first of weakening the belief in the spirit world and magic which, as we now know, was protecting people from the Astral world. Weakening that belief would have made the current reality/world vulnerable and prepared the way for the age of darkness. Then at least with Griffith's return, it helped to create legitimacy for Griffith as a new ruler. If there are beings in the Astral world which are opposite to the Idea of Evil in some sense, magic users are tapping into it a bit like the Apostles with the Idea of Evil. What we are going to get now is a new reality where the manifestations of evil grow stronger and dominate.

I wonder if the origins of the Holy See don't trace back to those of Void somehow. He has always been something of the prophet type character with even the other God Hand.

I don't know if I believe Griffith is looking to sacrifice the remaining humans gathering in Falconia. He is definitely making them dependent upon him for survival and in turn making himself the center of the new reality. I don't know if I'd rule out the ability of a sacrifice, though. If the original city served as a sacrifice, I would think that Falconia could, as well. It would have significance to Griffith even if it were a stepping stone. Whether that's enough for a sacrifice, I'm not sure. But the idea of replacing the Idea of Evil is flimsy to me and doesn't fit.

Another angle may be that the Idea of Evil is something in the Berserk world that people turn to in their despair. The Apostles and God Hand are all somewhat tragic villains whose lives came apart somehow. The Idea of Evil was what provided at least a chosen few an answer. Its tough to base an entire theory off a now recanted chapter of the story, but what if the Idea of Evil sees as its purpose removing despair, and the means to accomplish that is the creation of a new seemingly utopian world - the one created by Griffith? The world would appear perfect to the ignorant white sheep inhabiting it, but would be pretty empty. You'd be a pathetic, dependent creature with little purpose. Life is easier and seemingly without suffering for those who give in and accept Griffith as their savior. Those who refuse are forced to live in the unstable outside struggling against the monsters who now roam freely.

It would lead to the other odd contrast in Berserk between good and evil. Evil is rarely wholly so, and appears almost magnificent within it. Griffith being the perfect manifestation of that. He is offering salvation, albeit from a disaster he himself created. Whereas Guts is this brutish man who at times comes off more like a monster. He's not chosen by fate, seemingly. He's 'the struggler.'

Post has gone on long enough so wrapping it up here. I don't have great story predictions as much as a general theory of what the goals of Griffith may be and how he serves the Idea of Evil. It is more inline with the ideas above that Griffith is doing his part in its plan. That doesn't preclude destroying the other God Hand. I would imagine that once their purpose has been filled they may all become expendable. The other four may have simply been tools paving the way for Griffith rather than his equals, depending on what you think they represent compared to Griffith. Is he simply the fifth and final one in a line or were the other four prerequisites for his role and whatever he may represent? Griffith is the ruler. Perhaps the others are merely other manifestations of things that lead people to despair and Griffith is the ultimate answer.

Offline Defengar

Re: Episode 345
« Reply #107 on: July 26, 2016, 12:16:25 PM »
There is certainly a lot of philosophical subtext to the story.

Guts a Nietzsche ubermensch Vs. Demi-god Griffith and his spirituality linked "Brave New World"

Offline Feeblecursedone

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Re: Episode 345
« Reply #108 on: July 26, 2016, 12:27:58 PM »
Quote
If there are beings in the Astral world which are opposite to the Idea of Evil in some sense, magic users are tapping into it a bit like the Apostles with the Idea of Evil. What we are going to get now is a new reality where the manifestations of evil grow stronger and dominate.

There are. 4 Elemental Kings.

Quote
He's not chosen by fate, seemingly. He's 'the struggler.'

But his " fate " is to struggle through with sheer determination and willpower. Guts still falls under laws of casuality even if he made turns where he shouldn't have been able. At least for now, we don't know if there's a way to completely remove one from casuality.


pav327

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Re: Episode 345
« Reply #109 on: July 26, 2016, 10:40:13 PM »
His goals changed when he became Femto, which is only natural
That he doesn't just want a kingdom is nothing new

But where was this stated?
Griffith said himself (in episode 180 which is actually called "Unchanged") that nothing has changed and that he will not betray his dream. Pretty much everything he did so far was done for sake of achieving his dream.
If you mean that IoE probably has different goals than a kingdom and Femto/Griffith will have to obey and follow, then his words about not betraying his dream will mean that he will oppose IoE if it comes down to it. We know it's possible to go against something that's way above you, as this is one of the main themes of the manga.
I would love to see something like that happen because it would make Griffith not simply a pure evil as Slan said, but a determined strong character that he was the whole time before he was broken by Guts' influence. He went through some revealing experience and now he's renewed and (almost) flawless, but, again, unchanged.
It's not like something like this will redeem his deeds before Guts' eye. :guts:

No, it's not. The tree goes through the worlds, and it is like a crack in the corporeal world from which the astral world spilled.

Crack is something that happens, I got an impression that the Tree always existed and it is what binds worlds together. Binds meaning holds together. I mean Spirit Trees were existed before World's Tree appeared and they drained it's power from the very beginning of the manga, right? And the term "overlapping" came up previously when Schierke talked about astral beings that aren't supposed to exist in the physical world.

I don't really understand how a crack (a break in the matter) could be made weaker or have power at all, let alone having a parasites on it's body. I could understand a concept of three dimensional crack though. But it sounded like the Tree is the reason why all the chaos is happening, but it's not the actual source of the astral "spillage" like Qliphoth was. Sure, this all might not supposed to be understandable by human, but come on.

The first member of the God Hand became an apostle?

I meant of course the human that became the first God Hand member.

I also don't think learning of the name "road of dragons" changes all that much regarding what we understand of the world. By that I mean that traveling deep within the Astral World wasn't considered impossible before.

Um, up to this chapter I always thought that it's unreachable from the physical world, without the Beherit activation, and even Beherit does not take you straight down to the Abyss. Daiba's man-made Beherit is probably the closest thing, but we know that regular people weren't able to visit hell, only Ganishka.
And I guess we saw that the Sword of Actuation could cut through the layers of existence straight to the Vortex, but it was more like a rupture rather than a way that one could just enter.

I think I saw somewhere on this site a scheme of the astral world layers and it was stated that it's possible to go down only 3 layers down from where you're originally stand. Not sure if I remember it correctly or how true it was.

What of the branded corpses, for examples?

They could be the people that took part in a ritual that actually opened the fissure.
This goes back to the speculation about a cult that existed in the Capital and the brands on the foreheads are man-made and the leader of the cult was human Void who was a mage of some sort.

Uhhh... The Beast of Darkness isn't Guts' ego

It's not an evil spirit of any kind - Beast was present inside dwarf's cave in vol 17.
The episode 190 in which Guts goes into the beast mode and bites Casca called "Fangs of Ego".
When Schierke entered Guts' conscious for the first time she saw the Beast and Guts' actual ego inside of it. And Guts' ego acted just like the Beast before Guts remembered himself.
It's an ego of his rage maybe, but it's not like it doesn't belong to Guts' ego. Unless he'll go completely towards a multiple personality disorder. But even then they're inseparable.

The "Boy in the Moonlight" (the proper name) already had those powers before the World Spiral Tree appeared

Shouldn't the proper name be in Japanese? :)
As I said before, my impression was that the World's Tree always existed and now it appeared because it got a lot more power than it had before. I think so mainly because Spirit Trees drained it's power long before it has actually appeared.
I wouldn't bet my money on the Boy feeding off the Tree at this point, but since it was established that the Tree could act as a power source (because it has some immense power that could be drained), it opens an opportunity to utilize such mechanics in the future. Maybe Griffith will be using it instead (to oppose IoE, for example). Or maybe it was just an explanation for the Spirit Trees and that's it.


By the way could it be that those human trees we saw in the previous chapter are man-made Spirit Trees that were created from the mages in order to compensate for destruction of the Spirit Trees? We have seen that there is a very few adults and the village is kind of empty (at least, so far), so maybe that's where most of them went?


Also, I wonder, am I getting downvoted automatically with each post I make?  :schnoz:

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Episode 345
« Reply #110 on: July 27, 2016, 05:13:17 PM »
When it comes to Griffith's new goal, one thing above creating your own kingdom or even ruling the world to me seems to be the creation of an entirely new one. Which seems to be what the story is getting at for some time. There is a new age dawning - one of darkness - created by Griffith. The reality that people have known for at least 1,000 years is being undone and recreated by Griffith who in turn is making the humans that remain dependent upon him for their safety. That all really ties back into one of the major themes of Berserk - being strong enough to make your own way, live your life as you please, rather than just being dependent or clinging to others.

I don't know if we can say that this is an "entirely new world", in the sense that this is a fusion between two preexisting "parts" of the world, and that it is a return to a state the world was in during ancient times. Similarly, I don't think Griffith embodies the theme of being strong enough to make your own way without being dependent on others. He failed to achieve his goals, then sacrificed what was most dear to him in exchange for evil power that was bestowed to him by a higher entity that he now serves, directly or indirectly.

If the Holy See is worshiping the Idea of Evil or some version of it, it served the purpose first of weakening the belief in the spirit world and magic which, as we now know, was protecting people from the Astral world.

The Holy See worships the Falcon of Light. I don't think it's meant to be related to the Idea of Evil like that, although I also believe the Holy See's establishment was part of the IoE's scheme.

If there are beings in the Astral world which are opposite to the Idea of Evil in some sense, magic users are tapping into it a bit like the Apostles with the Idea of Evil.

I don't think that comparison is apt. The way Schierke calls for the help of elemental spirits is radically different to how the God Hand, apostles and the Idea of Evil work. These latter entities are powered by human souls, and specifically by the evil of mankind. When they undergo their transcendence, the very soul of an apostle is infused with evil and irremediably changed. That is what gives them their power. It's really a completely different process.

I wonder if the origins of the Holy See don't trace back to those of Void somehow. He has always been something of the prophet type character with even the other God Hand.

It's an interesting question about which I've wondered and speculated myself. I've been convinced for a very long time that the Holy See was created (or at least has been manipulated) by the God Hand as part of their greater scheme. The way it's served Femto after his incarnation is a pretty damning clue to that. But I'm not sure it was necessarily born from a specific human figure like a prophet as opposed to behind the scenes scheming and retroactively incorporating things into an overarching myth. The reason I say so is that it includes a lot of half-truth that originate in the magical study of the world, but that have been twisted to conform to its views. It also, as far as we know, revolves around a central falcon figure that Griffith now embodies, instead of a founding messiah. That being said, we still know so little about it that it's quite possible there was such a key figure in spite of the rest.

I don't know if I'd rule out the ability of a sacrifice, though. If the original city served as a sacrifice, I would think that Falconia could, as well.

We saw that some people were branded, but that doesn't mean "the whole city" was sacrificed. Anyway, I really don't find the idea of Griffith "sacrificing" Falconia likely. It seems a bit ridiculous to me, to be honest. It's just something people say because there was the Eclipse, and since they can't think of anything better it means it must happen again. But I think that'd just be boring and unoriginal.

Another angle may be that the Idea of Evil is something in the Berserk world that people turn to in their despair. The Apostles and God Hand are all somewhat tragic villains whose lives came apart somehow. The Idea of Evil was what provided at least a chosen few an answer. Its tough to base an entire theory off a now recanted chapter of the story, but what if the Idea of Evil sees as its purpose removing despair, and the means to accomplish that is the creation of a new seemingly utopian world - the one created by Griffith? The world would appear perfect to the ignorant white sheep inhabiting it, but would be pretty empty. You'd be a pathetic, dependent creature with little purpose. Life is easier and seemingly without suffering for those who give in and accept Griffith as their savior. Those who refuse are forced to live in the unstable outside struggling against the monsters who now roam freely.

The Idea of Evil isn't really some dark figure people can "turn to", because they don't know it exists. If we stick to what episode 83 tells us, the Idea of Evil was made sentient by people's desire for reasons that would explain all the senseless misery in their lives. To quote it directly: "Humans desired reasons. Reasons for pain, reasons for sadness, reasons for life, reasons for death. Reason why their lives were filled with suffering... Reasons why their deaths were absurd. They wanted reasons for the destiny that kept transcending their knowledge." That doesn't really work with what you're proposing here. That being said, the idea that its ultimate goal is the absolute control of mankind in all respects is something I've myself speculated about, so I agree it is a compelling possibility.

Side note: Berserk uses the term "episodes" to refer to individual issues. "Chapter" is used for collections of episodes, like in the Lost Children chapter.

It would lead to the other odd contrast in Berserk between good and evil. Evil is rarely wholly so, and appears almost magnificent within it. Griffith being the perfect manifestation of that. He is offering salvation, albeit from a disaster he himself created. Whereas Guts is this brutish man who at times comes off more like a monster. He's not chosen by fate, seemingly. He's 'the struggler.'

Evil is pretty clear-cut in Berserk. Griffith is a false savior, and the savaltion he offers from a disaster he helped cause is sure to be a deception in the end. As for Guts, I'm not sure I agree with calling him "brutish", but more importantly you should keep in mind that "struggler" is just a nickname the Skull Knight gave him. It's not some celestial role he fulfills. And no one was really "chosen by fate" either, unless it refers to the Idea of Evil's manipulation of the principle of causality.

I don't have great story predictions as much as a general theory of what the goals of Griffith may be and how he serves the Idea of Evil. It is more inline with the ideas above that Griffith is doing his part in its plan. That doesn't preclude destroying the other God Hand. I would imagine that once their purpose has been filled they may all become expendable. The other four may have simply been tools paving the way for Griffith rather than his equals, depending on what you think they represent compared to Griffith. Is he simply the fifth and final one in a line or were the other four prerequisites for his role and whatever he may represent? Griffith is the ruler. Perhaps the others are merely other manifestations of things that lead people to despair and Griffith is the ultimate answer.

I think serving the Idea of Evil's plan necessarily goes against the notion that Griffith would kill his kindred. The idea that they're all expendable does not shock me, but I think it would have to serve a serious purpose as I doubt they'd agree to it, or that the Idea of Evil would easily waste such precious resources. Furthermore, they've been presented as being mostly equals so far in the story. Femto is their vanguard and has the main role in the corporeal world (which makes sense), but amongst them the de facto leader is Void.

---------

But where was this stated?
Griffith said himself (in episode 180 which is actually called "Unchanged") that nothing has changed and that he will not betray his dream. Pretty much everything he did so far was done for sake of achieving his dream.

The fact he ruthlessly chases his ambition is unchanged, and he did obtain a country of sorts. That's not in question. Femto's actions since he came back into the corporeal world showed better than anything else that his ambition was not just "to be king". Which is why he led Ganishka to undertake the actions he did, and then made it so Fantasia happened. You don't need a statement to see that. It just makes sense. The goals of a being who transcends mankind just aren't the same as those of a man. Incidentally, me and a lot of other people have been saying it for 10+ years. Were we just lucky that it happens to be the case? No, it just made sense. You know, you could say that even now, just because Guts has said it, it doesn't mean it's true. But if you look at how it was all set up, I think it become quickly evident that it was always meant to be like that.

If you mean that IoE probably has different goals than a kingdom and Femto/Griffith will have to obey and follow, then his words about not betraying his dream will mean that he will oppose IoE if it comes down to it. We know it's possible to go against something that's way above you, as this is one of the main themes of the manga.

That's not what I mean, that's not what I think will happen, and I don't think you properly apply Berserk's themes to the situation if you think Griffith destroying the Idea of Evil to stay true to his dream is something that will happen in the story. That the Idea of Evil has bigger goals than Griffith having a kingdom is so obvious I don't even know what to tell you. That Griffith is willingly taking part in that plan, and he himself has bigger goals than just having a kingdom also seems pretty obvious given what has happened in the story. Griffith didn't need to create Fantasia in order to have a kingdom. And Falconia isn't just "a kingdom", it's a giant city-state that magically appeared at the root of the World Spiral Tree where nearly all of mankind is amassed and reveres its leader. Finally, as Guts himself understands, Griffith's dream is his all-devouring ambition.

I would love to see something like that happen because it would make Griffith not simply a pure evil as Slan said, but a determined strong character that he was the whole time before he was broken by Guts' influence. He went through some revealing experience and now he's renewed and (almost) flawless, but, again, unchanged.

You're obviously taking Griffith's dialogue on the Hill of Swords too literally if you think he really hasn't changed at all. There's a reason his name changed when he became Femto. Femto is evil. "Pure evil" seems like an arbitrary distinction, but what's sure is that Femto is really very very evil. And also very powerful. The fact he serves the Idea of Evil doesn't change that. It's the choice he made during the Eclipse. He chose to sacrifice what was most precious to him in exchange for power. Nothing will change that now, and if you hope for it, you'll only be disappointed. The one thing that throws a wrench in this situation is the fact he shares a body with Guts and Casca's son. Also, Griffith was shown through flashbacks told by Casca to have had his share of weakness even before he met Guts, so I'm not sure you're really presenting this the right way. Griffith buckled under pressure and that's that. Again, nothing will change that. It's what was meant to be. I'm not quite sure where you're pulling that Slan reference from, by the way, but I'm pretty sure it's out of context.

Crack is something that happens, I got an impression that the Tree always existed and it is what binds worlds together. Binds meaning holds together. I mean Spirit Trees were existed before World's Tree appeared and they drained it's power from the very beginning of the manga, right? And the term "overlapping" came up previously when Schierke talked about astral beings that aren't supposed to exist in the physical world.

I know what the verb "to bind" means. Do you purport to teach me the English language? :schierke:

Anyway, I have already answered your question. The World Spiral Tree connects the worlds together. The World Spiral Tree existed before, but so far in the story it did not pierce through the Corporeal World like it does now. Now it does, and it is described to us as being like a crack, a great fissure from which the Astral World can pour into the Corporeal World. And yes, the Astral and Corporeal worlds overlap, but not in the way you think, and what you proposed is still wrong. Your idea is that because the tree is "too strong it pulls them too close together so they overlap and create chaos". That is not how it is described to us, neither in this episode nor in the previous ones. I don't know what else I can say: it just doesn't work like that.

I don't really understand how a crack (a break in the matter) could be made weaker or have power at all, let alone having a parasites on it's body. I could understand a concept of three dimensional crack though. But it sounded like the Tree is the reason why all the chaos is happening, but it's not the actual source of the astral "spillage" like Qliphoth was. Sure, this all might not supposed to be understandable by human, but come on.

Ok. Please keep in mind that even if I'm speaking tersely, I'm really trying to help you here. So the deal is that the World Spiral Tree is a big magical tree. Those parasitic trees were "seals" that leeched its power so it couldn't pierce through to the Corporeal world. That's what kept the worlds mostly apart. Now keep in mind, because the World Spiral Tree is a magical thing that connects entire realms of existence together, it necessarily has more than three dimensions. In Berserk, if we count time as the fourth dimension, then there's at least a 5th one as well that accounts for the transition from Corporeal to Astral and Ideal world. So as the World Spiral Tree came through the Corporeal world, because it connects to the Astral world (through the 5th dimension), it acts like a three dimensional fissure. Now of course, there's still a lot of details we don't know about the tree and how it all works, but I think that aspect should be pretty clear.

As for the chaos, well it's just the result of the very brutal and deep fusion of the two worlds. Instead of happening progressively over hundreds of years, it was done in an instant. It's no wonder chaos ensued. That's not really the World Spiral Tree's fault, it's the fault of those behind these events: the God Hand. Regarding the spillage, it's still not 100% clear to me how Ganishka's actions when he went to the Abyss & the Skull Knight's sword strike connect to the tree. However this episode makes it pretty clear that the World Spiral Tree is the conduit through which the fusion occurred.

Um, up to this chapter I always thought that it's unreachable from the physical world, without the Beherit activation, and even Beherit does not take you straight down to the Abyss. Daiba's man-made Beherit is probably the closest thing, but we know that regular people weren't able to visit hell, only Ganishka. And I guess we saw that the Sword of Actuation could cut through the layers of existence straight to the Vortex, but it was more like a rupture rather than a way that one could just enter.

Well it depends in what way you mean. Witches can travel deep into the Astral World using their body of light, or spiritual selves. While Flora said in volume 24 that no one ever returned from the Abyss, it doesn't mean it's impossible for someone to reach it. In the scenario you proposed earlier, that's what would have happened. Because even with the World Spiral Tree and everything, it seems unlikely to me that someone could go down the Abyss still clad in their corporeal bodies. It's a journey of the soul. All that aside, why couldn't the first beherit predate the first member of the God Hand? Beherits are controlled by the Idea of Evil.

I think I saw somewhere on this site a scheme of the astral world layers and it was stated that it's possible to go down only 3 layers down from where you're originally stand. Not sure if I remember it correctly or how true it was.

Yeah it's an old diagram from back in the day. It has its merits but I would not recommend people to rely on it.

They could be the people that took part in a ritual that actually opened the fissure.

I mean even if we go with that, that's still a really big cataclysm to me compared to the scale of the crack you're proposing. There would have to have been more to it than that, or it would need to have been something the size of the World Spiral Tree itself.

It's not an evil spirit of any kind - Beast was present inside dwarf's cave in vol 17.
The episode 190 in which Guts goes into the beast mode and bites Casca called "Fangs of Ego".
When Schierke entered Guts' conscious for the first time she saw the Beast and Guts' actual ego inside of it. And Guts' ego acted just like the Beast before Guts remembered himself.
It's an ego of his rage maybe, but it's not like it doesn't belong to Guts' ego. Unless he'll go completely towards a multiple personality disorder. But even then they're inseparable.

You missed my point. The Beast of Darkness isn't Guts' ego. It is a personification of his dark side. His rage, his fear, his hatred, his guilt, his sorrow, his drive towards death. It is a psychological construct within Guts' mind. What that means is that it's a part of his ego. A side of him. But that's all. His ego is still... him. And guess what: "This world itself is I, the darkness that dwells in every human heart, the Idea of Evil." Guts doesn't need to go to the Abyss for the Idea of Evil to get acquainted with the Beast of Darkness. As told in episode 83, that dark side of him is literally what ties him to the IoE, same as every other human being.

That aside, I appreciate your efforts in detailing what parts of the story form the basis of your reasoning, but you must realize that everything you said here is known to me. I also must point out that it's pretty ridiculous to call "beast mode" the scene of Guts being briefly overcome by his pulsions in episodes 189 & 190. He doesn't transform like a robot. Moreover, Dark Horse's translation for the title of episode 190 is pretty bad if you ask me (it's a hard one to translate however). Lastly, when Schierke dives in Guts' consciousness in volume 27, what she sees, that maelstrom of flames that takes up the form of the Beast of Darkness, is explained as being the shape the Od of the Berserk's armor has fashioned from Guts' hatred. It is not his consciousness itself that is shaped like that.

Shouldn't the proper name be in Japanese? :)

I can actually use the Japanese names of the characters if you prefer. That is no trouble for me at all. In this case it's "月下の少年". But this is an English-speaking forum, and the English translation for that line is actually what's proper. Now the reason I go through the trouble of tirelessly pointing out the exact names of things to people is so that we don't end up one day with people saying "Moongirl", which has happened before.

As I said before, my impression was that the World's Tree always existed and now it appeared because it got a lot more power than it had before.

Yes, it preexisted its recent appearance in the Corporeal World. But it didn't just appear "because it got a lot more power". Destroying the trees that parasited it cleared the way for its manifestation in the Corporeal World, but what made it happen was what Femto did on top of Ganishka.

I wouldn't bet my money on the Boy feeding off the Tree at this point, but since it was established that the Tree could act as a power source (because it has some immense power that could be drained), it opens an opportunity to utilize such mechanics in the future. Maybe Griffith will be using it instead (to oppose IoE, for example).

Sure. But no I don't think Griffith will use that power to oppose the Idea of Evil. Also, whether Griffith or the Boy use that power is the same, right? :slan:

By the way could it be that those human trees we saw in the previous chapter are man-made Spirit Trees that were created from the mages in order to compensate for destruction of the Spirit Trees? We have seen that there is a very few adults and the village is kind of empty (at least, so far), so maybe that's where most of them went?

I don't think that's very likely.

Offline Zade

Re: Episode 345
« Reply #111 on: July 28, 2016, 10:57:00 AM »
WOW!  What an episode!  This is some amazing stuff.  Definitely what we've all been waiting for and then some.  This is a big moment in Berserk history guys!

I feel the same as you. Finally the moment we have been waiting for. and next berserk episode next month! oh yeah we are back in action

Offline Mammon

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Re: Episode 345
« Reply #112 on: July 28, 2016, 10:30:59 PM »
Amazing episode, can't believe Casca might finally be a few episodes away from being restored.
When I discovered Berserk so many years ago she was already in that state, this is a huge event.

Thanks guys for your posts, all my questions/doubts have been already been answered ITT  :ubik:

I wanted to see this guy smack Puck for the throwback

but I guess he didn't notice him yet.

Or it's not the same character, but the chara design is close...

Offline Kaladin

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Re: Episode 345
« Reply #113 on: July 29, 2016, 12:56:44 AM »
Finally got the digital YA, the art looks so nice in it  :ubik:

Offline TripleJMaster3

Re: Episode 345
« Reply #114 on: July 29, 2016, 05:24:36 AM »
I must say this story never disappoints and for all the waiting the reward is always worth while. I think the main points in this episode were covered quite thoroughly so I dont have much to add. However the one thought that is lingering in the back of my mind is what events are unwinding on the main land.
We all know that time is not flowing the same on the island and although I do not expect a huge time difference (several years) I do believe there will be plenty of significant changes. Rakshas  :rakshas: is still out for satisfaction and Im sure Griff  :griffnotevil: has already established his next move towards dominating mankind. Wouldnt be surprised if hes already tied the knot at the very least.
Also I feel we are in line for another full moon although as cool as it would be to see an appearance on the island I am not quite sure how it would fit the storyline considering the king would be keen to who the boy actually is. Perhaps there could be a meeting during their return trip although I am hoping that it wont involve another lengthy sea voyage.

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Episode 345
« Reply #115 on: July 29, 2016, 10:24:22 AM »
We all know that time is not flowing the same on the island and although I do not expect a huge time difference (several years) I do believe there will be plenty of significant changes. Rakshas  :rakshas: is still out for satisfaction and Im sure Griff  :griffnotevil: has already established his next move towards dominating mankind. Wouldnt be surprised if hes already tied the knot at the very least.

I'm quite sure we'll get to see the wedding/coronation. Either through a small cut to Falconia (maybe around the time Casca will be cured, to show a parallel between the two events?) or as a flashback later on.

Also I feel we are in line for another full moon although as cool as it would be to see an appearance on the island I am not quite sure how it would fit the storyline considering the king would be keen to who the boy actually is.

It feels inevitable to me that we'll get a full moon on the island. Hell, for all we know, maybe there are only full moons there as a result of the time flow difference. Each day is 28 days in the real world. :iva: Anyway, it'll be interesting to see whether the boy shows up or not. Would he have no trouble being in Elfhelm? Would the gurus or the Elf King immediately know what he is? The thing is, the way the story has been set up, Schierke will ask the King of the Flower Storm about the boy anyway, because she thinks it's an herald of his or an avatar or something. So we're going there, we just don't know to what extent yet. And of course, the upcoming change in Casca's condition is guaranteed to complicate the matter as well. It will be tremendously exciting to see those events unfold.

Perhaps there could be a meeting during their return trip although I am hoping that it wont involve another lengthy sea voyage.

I think it's a given that we won't get to see another long sea journey. Miura used that one opportunity to tell the things he wanted to, and I expect the return trip to either not be by sea, or to happen mostly off-screen. That being said, if you only count the episodes showing Guts' side of the story, the entire trip took up 30 episodes in total, and only 10 of those were actually spent on the ship itself (17 were spent on the Solitary Island, 3 were a flashback of Guts' childhood). Personally I was a big fan of the Sea God story, of the little flashback as well as of the actual stuff we saw on ship, so I really have no complaints.

Since we're on that topic though, there are two things everyone should wonder about. The first is obvious: what will happen to the Sea Horse? Assuming there is another way to leave the island (like by traveling through the World Spiral Tree's branches like the Moonlight Boy does), would it make sense for Roderick to abandon his ship on Skellig and leave it in his men's hands? The second is obvious as well but people never mention it: what about the merrows? Miura has used the confrontation with the Sea God to introduce us to Isma and to her people, the merrows. That wasn't done for no reason, and the fact they're still around means they have a role to play. So what is that role? Will they help defend the island against a threat coming from the sea? Will they accompany the group on a return trip (by sea) and encounter trouble on the way? Food for thought.

Offline the immortal bob

Re: Episode 345
« Reply #116 on: July 29, 2016, 01:51:31 PM »
I wonder if Griffith is interested in becoming God as well.

Like he's fated to in some way.  I think that while I am of the mind set of hating Griffith for basically not being able to handle the loss of guts, even though it's hard to judge and if they were better communicators and he hadn't have given that speech where he said he had no friends and the band had no dreams, (although he could have just been talking to the princess in his way, he didn't tend to mince words in his speeches) that might not have happened.  He could have just seen it as Guts going his own way.  Anyway, like i said, even though i am of that mindset i see it as coming down to a point where Griffith has to remember his own original motivations that made him human, even though he is now fempto.

Or he could become the thing that he was fated to be.  Which i believe is unrevealed, but is alluded to in the discussions following Guts and Griffith's first fight with zodd. (the one that the new anime also centers on.)

I feel this synergy in timing in Berserk right now putting a new focus on the theme of, there being no difference between the devil and god.

If Griffith isn't destined to become that, i see him having to struggle to remember his own motivations in some way as well.  In the sense that what comes next for a function of the universe after it is completed.  Five members of the god hand seem to complete it.

Lot more to be revealed.

One of the best parts of the chapter, came around the foreboding sense of nearing a goal and feeling a dire sense of uncertainty, couched in happiness, because of the compainship along the way, and the inherent success juxtaposed with the unknown.  I always compare it to losing a full bar of health in street fighter right before finishing the fight because of the idea of finishing or closing.  Like the closer in a baseball game.  In theory that final step carries some powerful mojo.

I felt the impatience Guts felt, mixed with the toying of the story, or the need for Guts to relax with Isidro, Schierke, Puck, Serpico, Farnese, and casca.  It seems fitting that at this moment he would finally speak of his past.



Online Walter

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Re: Episode 345
« Reply #117 on: July 29, 2016, 04:27:49 PM »
I wonder if Griffith is interested in becoming God as well.

One would think that the being who laid plans for Griffith's birth, rise, fall, and ascension, manipulating history for a thousand years to pave the way for  him, would have seen such a thing coming.

Quote
Griffith has to remember his own original motivations that made him human, even though he is now fempto.

Or he could become the thing that he was fated to be.  Which i believe is unrevealed, but is alluded to in the discussions following Guts and Griffith's first fight with zodd. (the one that the new anime also centers on.)

I think you're a bit confused here. The desire Griffith had as a human to take his own kingdom was born from his desire to rule. It's pretty simple, particularly given the context he provides in the speech you mention (though this happened not after the fight with Zodd, but in Volume 3, during an undisclosed time when they were still young). More than a kingdom, which is a symbol of the power he wants to wield, he wants to become one of the people who set the world in motion.
:femto: :slan: :ubik:

Offline TripleJMaster3

Re: Episode 345
« Reply #118 on: July 29, 2016, 06:54:15 PM »

It feels inevitable to me that we'll get a full moon on the island. Hell, for all we know, maybe there are only full moons there as a result of the time flow difference. Each day is 28 days in the real world.


I must have missed this as I do not recall a specification on how time flows on the island. This is a very important detail and I'm surprised I didn't catch it. Perhaps It's do to a poor translation since I'm often in a hurry to find English versions once episodes are release, but am probably doing myself a disservice by not waiting for more reliable translations directly from the Japanese versions.


I think it's a given that we won't get to see another long sea journey. Miura used that one opportunity to tell the things he wanted to, and I expect the return trip to either not be by sea, or to happen mostly off-screen. That being said, if you only count the episodes showing Guts' side of the story, the entire trip took up 30 episodes in total, and only 10 of those were actually spent on the ship itself (17 were spent on the Solitary Island, 3 were a flashback of Guts' childhood). Personally I was a big fan of the Sea God story, of the little flashback as well as of the actual stuff we saw on ship, so I really have no complaints.


Makes sense and I am certainly not complaining about the sea voyage as there were plenty of interesting events that occurred. I guess I'm just over eager to see it hit the fan, but again I have yet to be disappointed so patience is certainly a virtue especially when reading this story. So regardless of if we get some magical teleportation or another sea voyage I'm sure the end result will be rewarding as always.


Since we're on that topic though, there are two things everyone should wonder about. The first is obvious: what will happen to the Sea Horse? Assuming there is another way to leave the island (like by traveling through the World Spiral Tree's branches like the Moonlight Boy does), would it make sense for Roderick to abandon his ship on Skellig and leave it in his men's hands? The second is obvious as well but people never mention it: what about the merrows? Miura has used the confrontation with the Sea God to introduce us to Isma and to her people, the merrows. That wasn't done for no reason, and the fact they're still around means they have a role to play. So what is that role? Will they help defend the island against a threat coming from the sea? Will they accompany the group on a return trip (by sea) and encounter trouble on the way? Food for thought.


Interesting point about the merrows. Although the sea horse has not left my thoughts I must admit I have not been considering the merrows. It would be wasteful for them to not serve some higher purpose since they were kind enough to stand guard and of course wasteful details never tie into this story, at least I have not come across one yet. They certainly proved most helpful against the sea god and in saving Guts. Perhaps our team will get split, some traveling by boat and the rest by some magical means?

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Episode 345
« Reply #119 on: July 29, 2016, 10:22:07 PM »
I wonder if Griffith is interested in becoming God as well. Like he's fated to in some way.

As Walter mentioned, since "God" (the Idea of Evil) controls "fate" (the principle of causality), that seems pretty unlikely.

i see it as coming down to a point where Griffith has to remember his own original motivations that made him human, even though he is now fempto.

You just said it yourself: he's not human anymore. The motivations he had as a human that were shed when he became Femto cannot just be regained like that. What matters (his all-devouring ambition) is what remains, and it has been sublimated.

Or he could become the thing that he was fated to be.  Which i believe is unrevealed, but is alluded to in the discussions following Guts and Griffith's first fight with zodd. (the one that the new anime also centers on.)

Uhh, you must have misunderstood that scene. Zodd basically warns Guts about the Eclipse. That's it.

I must have missed this as I do not recall a specification on how time flows on the island. This is a very important detail and I'm surprised I didn't catch it.

Sorry, I think you mistook what I said: this was just me talking, it's not at all confirmed in the story. We currently do not know how time flows on the island.

Perhaps our team will get split, some traveling by boat and the rest by some magical means?

Indeed, the idea has crossed my mind before... Seeing some (all?) of the group cope without Guts would be a most unexpected yet interesting development.

Offline DragoonBG

Re: Episode 345
« Reply #120 on: July 30, 2016, 12:27:46 AM »
Since we're on that topic though, there are two things everyone should wonder about. The first is obvious: what will happen to the Sea Horse? Assuming there is another way to leave the island (like by traveling through the World Spiral Tree's branches like the Moonlight Boy does), would it make sense for Roderick to abandon his ship on Skellig and leave it in his men's hands? The second is obvious as well but people never mention it: what about the merrows? Miura has used the confrontation with the Sea God to introduce us to Isma and to her people, the merrows. That wasn't done for no reason, and the fact they're still around means they have a role to play. So what is that role? Will they help defend the island against a threat coming from the sea? Will they accompany the group on a return trip (by sea) and encounter trouble on the way? Food for thought.

I think it will be/might be a cool/neat idea if we have the chance to experience a travel through the World Spiral Tree's branches with the Sea Horse floating/flying through it imbued by magic (ofc.). Maybe a little bit too far off for a fantasy and it goes into the sci-fi direction, but in terms of visual presentation it can potentially create amazing vistas (a lonely ship gracefully drifting into the night sky, while full moon illuminates the crew on the deck and thousand little stars glitter distorted by the luminescent matter of the tree's essence). Also, I can imagine the insides of the tree's branches surroundings have their own (hm, how should I put it), laws, like an entirely different world with it's flora and fauna (ok, I guess this part is a bit too much, at least some of it :D). That would be a nice/natural development and good new location to be revealed/presented to us as well, before we get to/reach Falconia.

Offline Delta Phi

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Re: Episode 345
« Reply #121 on: July 30, 2016, 02:35:17 AM »
I think it will be/might be a cool/neat idea if we have the chance to experience a travel through the World Spiral Tree's branches with the Sea Horse floating/flying through it imbued by magic (ofc.). Maybe a little bit too far off for a fantasy and it goes into the sci-fi direction, but in terms of visual presentation it can potentially create amazing vistas (a lonely ship gracefully drifting into the night sky, while full moon illuminates the crew on the deck and thousand little stars glitter distorted by the luminescent matter of the tree's essence).

Reminds me of Peter Pan, The Silmarillion, and Final Fantasy IV, actually.

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Episode 345
« Reply #122 on: July 30, 2016, 08:44:17 AM »
I think it will be/might be a cool/neat idea if we have the chance to experience a travel through the World Spiral Tree's branches with the Sea Horse floating/flying through it imbued by magic (ofc.).

Good idea! I agree, that'd be pretty cool to see.

Offline Cyrax

Re: Episode 345
« Reply #123 on: July 30, 2016, 09:10:57 AM »
Can't seem to find an answer on this but will there be an episode next month?

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Re: Episode 345
« Reply #124 on: July 30, 2016, 09:16:12 AM »
Can't seem to find an answer on this but will there be an episode next month?

Yes. In Young Animal #17 that will be released on August 26. It was stated early on in the thread, so you must not have searched for that answer very thoroughly.