Author Topic: Episode 345  (Read 27711 times)

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Offline Mangetsu

Re: Episode 345
« Reply #125 on: July 30, 2016, 06:41:08 PM »
I simply loved this episode. Seeing how everything is being connected reminded me of that one interview in which Miura talked about how everything falls into place subconsciously. It feels all natural and smooth and that's what i love about this.



« Last Edit: August 03, 2016, 10:13:59 AM by Mangetsu »

Offline ABH

Re: Episode 345
« Reply #126 on: July 31, 2016, 01:11:13 AM »
I don't know if we can say that this is an "entirely new world", in the sense that this is a fusion between two preexisting "parts" of the world, and that it is a return to a state the world was in during ancient times. Similarly, I don't think Griffith embodies the theme of being strong enough to make your own way without being dependent on others. He failed to achieve his goals, then sacrificed what was most dear to him in exchange for evil power that was bestowed to him by a higher entity that he now serves, directly or indirectly.

I would reference back to the Egg Apostle whose own wish was to create a new world with his sacrifice being the old world. In volume 34 after the light spreads across the globe, there is a reference to the realization of mankind's desires coming to fruit and a reference to Fantasia. The intro to volume 35 states the "Sword of Actuation turned Ganishka into the source from which sprung a new world." The citizens of Midland when first seeing Falconia describe it as the capital of a new world. It would seem to me to be rather blatant what the reference is.

Interestingly enough, the page that first uses the term Fantasia references the creatures coming into the human world now as being the fantasies of mankind for millennia, plural. This could just be that Miura hadn't fleshed everything out fully. Something that just occurred to me is that perhaps the Idea of Evil's birth was somewhat closer to that point in time, and it was only just starting to establish causality. But that's getting closer to older fan theories that it all started there which I'm not too sure on. History here could be cyclical going back far longer or that could be the sort of beginning to this story.

And in terms of the embodiment of making your own way, yes I meant Guts.

The Holy See worships the Falcon of Light. I don't think it's meant to be related to the Idea of Evil like that, although I also believe the Holy See's establishment was part of the IoE's scheme.

How or what the Idea of Evil is remains obscure, obviously. At least in the lost chapter, it refers to itself as god. Griffith in the last panel of the preceding chapter also references, though there may just not be a way to cut it.

I don't think that comparison is apt. The way Schierke calls for the help of elemental spirits is radically different to how the God Hand, apostles and the Idea of Evil work. These latter entities are powered by human souls, and specifically by the evil of mankind. When they undergo their transcendence, the very soul of an apostle is infused with evil and irremediably changed. That is what gives them their power. It's really a completely different process

The comparison cannot be taken too far or too literally. It may be wrong entirely. I am aware of the four elementals, we also have Schierke making 'pacts' with the spirits she draws power from. I only meant that magic users are serving some larger purpose, even if not knowingly (at least all of them) to keep the worlds in balance. They aren't servants of some Idea of Good.

To me the good in this world seems somewhat chaotic. If causality is controlled by the Idea of Evil, then the opposite of that would be, I guess, people who struggle against it. Struggle against causality and try to change it. Those who resist destiny. So perhaps there is no overarching Idea of Good out there somewhere yet to be revealed, and we only have the four spirits representing the basic elementals (also sort of a throw back to Greek philosophy which gave way to Christianity). Magic users are tapping into that power of the other world to influence the world they live in which is somewhat similar to the way Apostles and God Hand are beneficiaries of causality.

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To quote it directly: "Humans desired reasons. Reasons for pain, reasons for sadness, reasons for life, reasons for death. Reason why their lives were filled with suffering... Reasons why their deaths were absurd. They wanted reasons for the destiny that kept transcending their knowledge."

The way I read this is, Griffith asks if its God. The explanation provided is a reason for why humans came up with the concept of God in the first place. God gives the answer to those questions. The Idea of Evil views its purpose that way. Going back to the Egg Apostle, it saw itself as sacrificing the old world for a new perfect one. How literal anyone wants to be with the new world aspect is up to them, but the implication to me is that

The Idea of Evil says humans desired reasons, and that "I produce those...as it is what I have been brought into existence for." Whether the Idea of Evil has any particular motive isn't clear at all. It is cryptic only saying that Griffith's will is the same as its as he is part of the collective consciousness of humanity. Yet its creation of Apostles and the God Hand suggests it does to me. I mean, creating destiny/causality would not *seem* to require those things. He also tells Griffith he manipulated the past to ensure he would be in that place for the Eclipse which indicates intent.

So, there's manipulation to some end, and if the Idea of Evil's purpose is related to providing answers to those very questions humans have. Back to the Egg Apostle, it views itself as sacrificing the old world to create a new perfect one. Griffith's will is in line with that of the Idea of Evil which is in turn really just the collective consciousness of humanity. If humanity is yearning for a collective savior, a Griffith-type character would be the answer. And he would have to create something superficially resembling a utopia to provide the answers. A place where scarcity doesn't exist, where there is peace and everything is controlled by Griffith.

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As for Guts, I'm not sure I agree with calling him "brutish", but more importantly you should keep in mind that "struggler" is just a nickname the Skull Knight gave him. It's not some celestial role he fulfills. And no one was really "chosen by fate" either, unless it refers to the Idea of Evil's manipulation of the principle of causality.

Perhaps the better way to phrase all of this is that there is an odd contrast between good and evil in Berserk. It flips standard or conventional notions of good and evil on their heads in many ways.

I think good in the Berserk world is chaotic. He is a man who, when he goes off to find his own path, can only come back to fighting and seeking out stronger challenges. He has incredible rage. He has killed mass amounts of people. In terms of brutishness, he is not a dumb brute. But he most definitely is viewed as brutish by many of the people he encounters. And that is how he will appear to Griffith. Griffith is a false savior, and I don't in anyway subscribe to the 'theory' that he is the real hero of the story or anything. But he presented as all-powerful, beautiful even to the men in the story, incredibly intelligent and outside his affinity for Guts/sleeping with Charlotte, nearly infallible. Guts by contrast is a cursed individual born from a corpse, generally treated like garbage, and comes off as a mad dog to people when they first meet him after everything he's been through.

Then there are the forces that seem 'good' or at least not evil in the Astral world. Back to those four elementals. They are simply representations of elements that don't seem to have a will. If Guts represents someone struggling against causality, a causality that has been manipulated for Griffith - an anti-Christ type figure or false savior - the opposite of that to me is free will. Berserk is not Western and hardly only has superficial elements of Western traditions, but I go back to the comparison between the Holy See/Christianity and magic/paganism of the classical world there. The elementals are compared to the sole Idea of Evil chaotic, seemingly without any will, merely forming occasional pacts with people in-tune with the magical world. Guts is an incredible exception in the story itself because of his strength. Most people could not live his way where regardless of what happens, he just keeps fighting. Most of them are the ones yearning out to the Idea of Evil.

This is just how I perceive the contrast right now. Griffith is established a rather artificial little safe haven for people that provides them seemingly everything they'd need. Their wants are met, they are safe, and nothing is left to chance. There's a hidden side to that in that Griffith created that scenario, but the world before was a pretty ugly place (though, again, manipulated by the Idea of Evil).

So Berserk in many ways flips common tropes of good and evil. It's not unique in doing so, though it does it in a special way.

Furthermore, they've been presented as being mostly equals so far in the story. Femto is their vanguard and has the main role in the corporeal world (which makes sense), but amongst them the de facto leader is Void.

Griffith's creation is to me quite clearly represented as special - the culmination of a process that started perhaps 1,000 years ago (which may have started with Void). I think his place is obviously quite special compared to the others. If we go back to the Christianity tie-in, which can be admittedly shaky, he's a bit like the anti-Christ, the fifth horseman compared to the other four.

But we can only wait and see until we learn more about the God Hand.

Offline Cyrax

Re: Episode 345
« Reply #127 on: July 31, 2016, 09:08:48 AM »
Yes. In Young Animal #17 that will be released on August 26. It was stated early on in the thread, so you must not have searched for that answer very thoroughly.

Yeah.... I guess I didn't.

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Episode 345
« Reply #128 on: July 31, 2016, 09:45:49 AM »
I would reference back to the Egg Apostle whose own wish was to create a new world with his sacrifice being the old world. In volume 34 after the light spreads across the globe, there is a reference to the realization of mankind's desires coming to fruit and a reference to Fantasia. The intro to volume 35 states the "Sword of Actuation turned Ganishka into the source from which sprung a new world." The citizens of Midland when first seeing Falconia describe it as the capital of a new world. It would seem to me to be rather blatant what the reference is.

I know of everything you mention. My comment still stands in the wider context provided (among other things) by the very episode whose thread this is. It isn't really an "entirely new world", even though it seems to be so for the average person living in Falconia right now. Even Falconia isn't an entirely new city, since it is based on Gaiseric's old capital. Like you mention later in your post, there are hints a cyclical aspect to the present events. So as far as the themes of Berserk go, I disagree with your interpretation in that specific context.

Interestingly enough, the page that first uses the term Fantasia references the creatures coming into the human world now as being the fantasies of mankind for millennia, plural. This could just be that Miura hadn't fleshed everything out fully.

No, it just means that:

1) In Japanese the plural and singular form are both possible.
2) We don't know when the Corporeal and Astral worlds started coming apart.

How or what the Idea of Evil is remains obscure, obviously. At least in the lost chapter, it refers to itself as god. Griffith in the last panel of the preceding chapter also references, though there may just not be a way to cut it.

The individual issues of Berserk are called episodes, not chapters. And like I told you, the Holy See worships the Falcon of Light. That the Idea of Evil is referred to as God or a god does not mean the Holy See worships it. As far as we currently know, it doesn't. But it still serves Its designs by revering one of its agents (Griffith).

The comparison cannot be taken too far or too literally. It may be wrong entirely. I am aware of the four elementals, we also have Schierke making 'pacts' with the spirits she draws power from. I only meant that magic users are serving some larger purpose, even if not knowingly (at least all of them) to keep the worlds in balance. They aren't servants of some Idea of Good.

Yeah I'm sorry but no matter how far you take it or not, it's just incorrect. The process is completely different. But sure, magic users serve an important purpose, no doubt about that.

To me the good in this world seems somewhat chaotic. If causality is controlled by the Idea of Evil, then the opposite of that would be, I guess, people who struggle against it. Struggle against causality and try to change it. Those who resist destiny. So perhaps there is no overarching Idea of Good out there somewhere yet to be revealed, and we only have the four spirits representing the basic elementals (also sort of a throw back to Greek philosophy which gave way to Christianity). Magic users are tapping into that power of the other world to influence the world they live in which is somewhat similar to the way Apostles and God Hand are beneficiaries of causality.

I don't know about that whole chaotic thing. For starters, I don't think there needs to be something directly opposing the Idea of Evil. For example, I don't think there's an Idea of Good, but there must be a place in the great ocean of souls were people with good karma go. It's just that that place hasn't developed an ego. And the four elemental kings are fundamentally different beings too. They rule over the four elements, but they aren't tied to mankind like the Idea of Evil is. So this is an asymmetrical situation where there is no direct counterpart to the Idea of Evil... which is why the Idea of Evil has been doing exactly what it wants without any real opposition (even the Skull Knight's intervention worked in its favor in volume 34) so far. Magic users can be seen as a threat to its plans because of their deep understanding of how the world works, but it's still an enormous stretch to compare them to apostles or the God Hand.

Anyway, I think it's specious to say that because the Idea of Evil manipulates the principle of causality to achieve its results, it must mean that chaos is good. People still suffered before the Idea of Evil was born, and in fact that's precisely why it was born. And is the current chaos outside of Falconia good, when humans can't survive there? In episode 345, Ged didn't seem to relish the idea of the "ancient chaos" coming back at all. He described it as a catastrophic event. I guess my point is that the opposition between good and evil isn't as simplistic as you make it out to be. People living harmoniously with nature and with each other, that's good. But is it human nature?

The Idea of Evil says humans desired reasons, and that "I produce those...as it is what I have been brought into existence for." Whether the Idea of Evil has any particular motive isn't clear at all.

I believe you just mentioned its motive: "I produce those [reasons]... as it is what I have been brought into existence for."

If humanity is yearning for a collective savior, a Griffith-type character would be the answer. And he would have to create something superficially resembling a utopia to provide the answers. A place where scarcity doesn't exist, where there is peace and everything is controlled by Griffith.

You've typed a lot of text but it didn't actually address what I told you. Which is that, if we stick to episode 83, the Idea of Evil produces reasons for people's misery (pain, suffering, death, etc.) and the destiny that transcends their knowledge. So "removing despair" wouldn't be in its interest, since it feeds off of it. And "reasons" doesn't mean "answers" either.

Perhaps the better way to phrase all of this is that there is an odd contrast between good and evil in Berserk. It flips standard or conventional notions of good and evil on their heads in many ways.

I really, really love Berserk, but I don't think it's revolutionizing the concept of good and evil. Guts was an anti-hero before anti-heroes were cool. And yet he's still exceptionally strong, whether it's physically or mentally, and is fundamentally a good guy. As for Griffith, he wears white, looks angelic, eats cakes with princesses and saves kingdoms from monsters. But we know it's just a facade behind which lurks Femto, the Wings of Darkness. We know he has apostles at his command and that his ulterior motives are necessarily evil. I think this is all really cool, and it's not the norm, but it isn't beyond comprehension either. Tales of heroic outlaws who fight corrupt despots have existed in fiction since the dawn of time. While Miura has subverted the tale of the white knight in shining armor, as the readers we know what's really going on.

He is a man who, when he goes off to find his own path, can only come back to fighting and seeking out stronger challenges. He has incredible rage. He has killed mass amounts of people. In terms of brutishness, he is not a dumb brute. But he most definitely is viewed as brutish by many of the people he encounters. And that is how he will appear to Griffith. Griffith is a false savior, and I don't in anyway subscribe to the 'theory' that he is the real hero of the story or anything. But he presented as all-powerful, beautiful even to the men in the story, incredibly intelligent and outside his affinity for Guts/sleeping with Charlotte, nearly infallible. Guts by contrast is a cursed individual born from a corpse, generally treated like garbage, and comes off as a mad dog to people when they first meet him after everything he's been through.

I think you oversimplify people's view of Guts here. He's big and strong, but the main definition of "brutish" in the dictionary is "brutal or cruel", and I don't think that has fit people's view of Guts for a long time. But I get what you mean: he appears unrefined compared to Griffith. As for being cursed, he is only so because he was branded during the Eclipse. Again, I get what you mean: Guts wears black and struggles in the mud while Griffith shines brightly in his white armor and soars in the sky. That is one of the themes at the core of Berserk. But the story gives enough more than enough details for us to see things aren't that simple. The same goes for Griffith actually: as a man, he was certainly fallible, and it goes much farther than just him being upset in volume 8 and sleeping with Charlotte.

Then there are the forces that seem 'good' or at least not evil in the Astral world. Back to those four elementals. They are simply representations of elements that don't seem to have a will.

The four kings are inherently elemental, and seem to be immutable parts of the world, but I don't think we can say they don't have a will. That is not reflected in what Schierke says about them. Anyway, "evil" in Berserk typically refers to "evil power" created from a concentration of human souls with bad karma. It's not hard to imagine that the very concept of fueling oneself with human souls might be fundamentally incompatible with good karma, therefore explaining why we haven't heard of it. Other than that, the idea that the "forces of nature" might stand in opposition to the Idea of Evil's camp is something I've long speculated about myself. However, in the end, that opposition may end up being closer to "mankind vs nature" than "evil vs good", unless Guts can do something about it.

The elementals are compared to the sole Idea of Evil chaotic, seemingly without any will, merely forming occasional pacts with people in-tune with the magical world.

That isn't true, actually. Going past the four kings themselves, the various spiritual beings Schierke has called for help all had a will of sorts, as shown in Schierke's dialogue. They each have their particularities, which is why she has to form a pact with them instead of just tapping into that power directly. And they aren't chaotic either, on the contrary they rule over a specific domain.

Guts is an incredible exception in the story itself because of his strength. Most people could not live his way where regardless of what happens, he just keeps fighting. Most of them are the ones yearning out to the Idea of Evil.

No yearning is necessary. People don't consciously want an overseer to control their lives. As for Guts, he has played a key part in the Idea of Evil's schemes. He was at the heart of Griffith's rise to glory and fall to despair, which is what led him to join the God Hand. He has been branded and bears his fair share of darkness (which ties him to the Idea of Evil). If he died today, he would join the Vortex of Souls. Guts is certainly very strong, but he's not outside of the Idea of Evil's reach. The gurus might be, though.

This is just how I perceive the contrast right now. Griffith is established a rather artificial little safe haven for people that provides them seemingly everything they'd need. Their wants are met, they are safe, and nothing is left to chance. There's a hidden side to that in that Griffith created that scenario, but the world before was a pretty ugly place (though, again, manipulated by the Idea of Evil).

Let's not forget that the situation with Falconia might still evolve though. We don't know what the end-goal is yet.

Offline Feeblecursedone

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Re: Episode 345
« Reply #129 on: July 31, 2016, 05:31:34 PM »
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but there must be a place in the great ocean of souls were people with good karma go

How about becoming a spirit in some layer of astral world? I mean, we know its possible for wizards and witches to likely exist there in afterlife, but a lot of people with " good " karma tend to be mages in fact. In general people who associate with magic and natural order of the world seem to be largely free of the taint of society and evil in general. Not all though, those Kushan sorcerers didn't smell as " good " to me.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2016, 05:47:38 PM by Feeblecursedone »

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Episode 345
« Reply #130 on: July 31, 2016, 07:44:37 PM »
How about becoming a spirit in some layer of astral world? I mean, we know its possible for wizards and witches to likely exist there in afterlife, but a lot of people with " good " karma tend to be mages in fact. In general people who associate with magic and natural order of the world seem to be largely free of the taint of society and evil in general. Not all though, those Kushan sorcerers didn't smell as " good " to me.

Haha, I'm not sure I'd even really count those nameless Kushan guys as magic users given how low they were on the ladder. Farnese's a prodigy compared to them. Anyway, a master witch like Flora has managed to subsist after death, but we don't really know how widespread that practice is. Nor what form that takes exactly. Has Flora just become a spirit like those Schierke calls upon? I don't really think so. Either way, I do believe most people (good or bad) end up in the ocean of souls. You make a good point though about the fact most of the people we've seen in Berserk seem to have bad karma.

Offline scopedog

Re: Episode 345
« Reply #131 on: August 01, 2016, 03:42:43 AM »
You make a good point though about the fact most of the people we've seen in Berserk seem to have bad karma.

I'd be curious to know how exactly karma operates in the world of Berserk because the specific mechanics of it can vary between Indian traditions. Though I seriously doubt Miura will give much if any additional time to expound on this as there are more important things to focus on.

If you look at it from a Hindu perspective karma is a bit easier to work with. Giving gifts is a central aspect of acrueing karmic merit, and this is why traditionally the one receiving a gift in ancient India wouldn't be saying much thanks or making a big deal out of it because the one giving the gift is the one really benefiting.

However from a Buddhist perspective the system becomes much trickier to work with and frankly most people in this modern day world would have rather low or even negative karma even without doing particularly bad deeds. This is because in the Buddhist system a person's mind states and especially their intent for any given action are factored in heavily to the equation. Also speaking truthfully is very important as well. So if you aren't watching what you say and actively cultivating a clean/high state of mind (ie. with the brahma viharas), there's a good chance your karma is at least such that you won't be looking forward to rebirth in a heavenly realm.   

One of the more interesting beliefs I've heard from a Buddhist is that when a being dies its actually the being itself who's turning around and doing the weighing and judging of their karma, deed by deed, and in this moment one is not unlike a God, and we actually end up coming down rather hard on ourselves as we often imagine a God would do. And it is only by becoming a 'stream-enterer' (the abandonment of the first 3 fetters including 'permanent self view' ie. breaking through the illusion of an ego) or attaining the further 3 stages toward nirvana that one can actually see what's going on in this process clearly after death and simply choose to be born in a fortunate location. So it doesn't have to be a completely static and unthinking law of the universe, there are different ways to approach this issue.                 

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Episode 345
« Reply #132 on: August 01, 2016, 06:18:39 AM »
I'd be curious to know how exactly karma operates in the world of Berserk because the specific mechanics of it can vary between Indian traditions. Though I seriously doubt Miura will give much if any additional time to expound on this as there are more important things to focus on.

The basis for it is from Buddhism, but obviously it's its own thing in Berserk. The only time it's been mentioned in the story so far was by Flora and she didn't go into details, so we don't know much about it.

Offline ApostleBob

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Re: Episode 345
« Reply #133 on: August 01, 2016, 08:18:24 PM »
Good idea! I agree, that'd be pretty cool to see.

This could be especially cool with all the water imagery used in the series. The ship could literally sail through layers. But I'm getting ahead of myself.

Offline the immortal bob

Re: Episode 345
« Reply #134 on: August 02, 2016, 07:27:35 AM »
One would think that the being who laid plans for Griffith's birth, rise, fall, and ascension, manipulating history for a thousand years to pave the way for  him, would have seen such a thing coming.

I think you're a bit confused here. The desire Griffith had as a human to take his own kingdom was born from his desire to rule. It's pretty simple, particularly given the context he provides in the speech you mention (though this happened not after the fight with Zodd, but in Volume 3, during an undisclosed time when they were still young). More than a kingdom, which is a symbol of the power he wants to wield, he wants to become one of the people who set the world in motion.

I just base it on the idea that, this fate was planned for Griffith but he had his own dream despite being fated to hold the egg of the king.

I don't feel that this vision now coincides with his original dream, on a subjective level.


Offline Johnstantine

Re: Episode 345
« Reply #135 on: August 02, 2016, 03:40:28 PM »
I don't feel that this vision now coincides with his original dream, on a subjective level.

That's exactly how I feel about it. It's just cool to see it clearly stated by Guts finally.

Offline Feeblecursedone

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Re: Episode 345
« Reply #136 on: August 02, 2016, 09:35:48 PM »
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Haha, I'm not sure I'd even really count those nameless Kushan guys as magic users given how low they were on the ladder. Farnese's a prodigy compared to them.

Haha, cmon, Pishaca were bloody cool. Especially Makara. Albeit, that name cracks me every time. In Croatian, Pishaca ( Pišača ) is a slang for urin/pee.... You'll never look at them in same light <.<


Offline Aazealh

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Re: Episode 345
« Reply #137 on: August 02, 2016, 09:52:53 PM »
Haha, cmon, Pishaca were bloody cool. Especially Makara.

Oh they were great for sure, but the nameless guys who controlled them can't be compared to the magicians of Skellig. :schnoz:

Offline ABH

Re: Episode 345
« Reply #138 on: August 02, 2016, 10:47:58 PM »
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My comment still stands in the wider context provided (among other things) by the very episode whose thread this is. It isn't really an "entirely new world"

I find it odd that someone wants to get so literal about this when the creator of the series has banged the point home multiple times, and it's even placed outside the story in descriptions of the volumes. Curious - do you think Griffith and Femto are one in the same, or is Femto different from Griffith in your view?

The dirt in the new world is the same as the old one, but for the people involved in the story, in the big picture, and the way it is being presented is as a new world. The old one with its order and the old reality as a whole are being torn apart and replaced. I interpret Berserk in terms of symbols and ideas based on what is presented in the manga. If there's evidence contradicting my views, I accept it and try to see what Miura is saying. But I don't think meaning is derived from treating what is said as encyclopedic.

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. And like I told you, the Holy See worships the Falcon of Light. That the Idea of Evil is referred to as God or a god does not mean the Holy See worships it. As far as we currently know, it doesn't. But it still serves Its designs by revering one of its agents (Griffith).

What the Holy See worships remains unclear. Which is why the initial point was posted as speculative and not fact. It's not a matter of knowing that it doesn't. It's just that the characteristics of the Holy See's deity are completely unrevealed. Yet its odd to think that the Idea of Evil brought about the Holy See in some way, presumably views itself as God given the content revealed so far, and yet it has no place in its religion.

There is an issue I have here where ideas get shot down definitively, and its not really based on the source material. So a statement such as as far as we currently know, this isn't true when we don't know at all doesn't hold water. We know nothing, and there's nothing indicating it isn't. There's at least some things I have pointed to that indicate there is some connection.

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Yeah I'm sorry but no matter how far you take it or not, it's just incorrect. The process is completely different. But sure, magic users serve an important purpose, no doubt about that.

Except we just learned last chapter they are serving a greater purpose in maintaining order between the two worlds. And presumably intentionally. And they form pacts with the other world. If you want to view it as completely different, by all means. But I see parallels there.

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Anyway, I think it's specious to say that because the Idea of Evil manipulates the principle of causality to achieve its results, it must mean that chaos is good. People still suffered before the Idea of Evil was born, and in fact that's precisely why it was born. And is the current chaos outside of Falconia good, when humans can't survive there?

Without getting too long here:
1. As far as what's been revealed so far, it seems like the entire Astral world is created by man in a similar way as the Idea of Evil.
2. The world before wasn't 'good.' And I would reference that good in Berserk isn't really stereotypical good. Guts is not a typical hero. He's a guy who has murdered children and slaughtered hundreds of people. Outside elves, nothing is really described as 'good.' Nor has there been any character who is purely good. That the Idea of Evil is evil and considers itself God may speak to what Miura is trying to say about humanity.
3. The outside, the chaos isn't purely good or evil. But there is freedom there.

Do you reject that Miura draws contrasts between Guts and Griffith? And if Griffith is the false savior, then perhaps what he's saving people from isn't all bad in Miura's view. But it isn't meant to be some cliche of good, either.

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I guess my point is that the opposition between good and evil isn't as simplistic as you make it out to be.

I didn't think I was painting a black and white picture at all. But you did say in your previous post that "[e]vil is pretty clear-cut in Berserk." So if Griffith is evil, an anti-savior, then it kind of makes sense that the world he is building, or however you want to describe his (new?) dream is evil. Whatever he is ushering in is called the Age of Darkness so that's not too ambiguous to me. So I would think the characteristics of what Griffith/Femto is building would be a good indicator of what Miura is trying to say with the story about evil.

My own beliefs may influence my interpretations here, but I see a pretty sterile existence where people are accepting the safety and luxury of Falconia blindly in exchange for presumably their freedom. If I am right on Miura's overall statement, I think we will see Miura develop that theme. If I'm not, we'll see clarity on that.

I don't want to make this post ridiculously long. It's already pretty lengthy. So I'll cut it there and bow out.

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Episode 345
« Reply #139 on: August 03, 2016, 10:10:18 AM »
I find it odd that someone wants to get so literal about this when the creator of the series has banged the point home multiple times, and it's even placed outside the story in descriptions of the volumes. [...] The dirt in the new world is the same as the old one, but for the people involved in the story, in the big picture, and the way it is being presented is as a new world. The old one with its order and the old reality as a whole are being torn apart and replaced.

I think you're trying to confuse the issue here. Fantasia being described as a "new world" by characters in the story and you saying that Griffith's goal was to create an entirely new world like an omnipotent god would are two different things. The word "entirely" matters here, and I disagree with what you said in the context you said it. I also think I've given you good reasons why, in the big picture, this world isn't entirely new. Like the fact, as Ged mentions in this episode, the world used to be like that long ago. That Fantasia is a "new" world in the immediate context of the story isn't up for debate, but that's not my point.

Curious - do you think Griffith and Femto are one in the same, or is Femto different from Griffith in your view?

Hahaha, you're cute. Yes, Femto and Griffith are one and the same, with the critical exception of Guts and Casca's son. My thoughts on the matter (which are merely me stating a fact) have been all over this forum for over a decade, and are reiterated so often I might have said it last week for all I know. Of course I assume you're speaking about the new Griffith here, the one Femto was incarnated into. The original, human Griffith underwent a pretty drastic transformation when he became Femto. Hence the change of names, and the fact Femto was "born" from Griffith.

I interpret Berserk in terms of symbols and ideas based on what is presented in the manga. If there's evidence contradicting my views, I accept it and try to see what Miura is saying. But I don't think meaning is derived from treating what is said as encyclopedic.

So you're divining omens based on chicken bones is what you're saying? As opposed to stupidly reading from the book like some people. Yet in our exchange just above, you were the one quoting lines to justify what you said, while I was telling you the context mattered. So who's who here in the end? :slan:

What the Holy See worships remains unclear.

Are you saying the Holy See doesn't worship the Falcon of Light? Him being their prophecized savior is all over the story, and their holy symbol itself is shaped like a falcon... The Pontiff publicly groveled before him on their first meeting, etc.

Yet its odd to think that the Idea of Evil brought about the Holy See in some way, presumably views itself as God given the content revealed so far, and yet it has no place in its religion.

It's not that odd if you think a little. What does the Idea of Evil have to gain by being worshipped directly? From the content revealed so far in the story, nothing. It exists regardless, and its power isn't affected by people's prayers. On the other hand, it greatly benefits from the effects the Holy See has had on people's conception of the world (obfuscating the real powers at play), and obviously that religion has played an important role in furthering its plans since it blindly follows Griffith, one of its agents. Going further than that, the various heretics we've seen in Berserk directly oppose the Holy See, but know that also works in the God Hand's favor (and therefore the Idea of Evil's). I could talk about the Kushans as well but it doesn't matter, the point is that while the Holy See is definitely tied to the God Hand and therefore the Idea of Evil (even through imagery, as their symbol is reminiscent of the Brand and the IoE's double helix), so far nothing in the story implies the IoE is being directly worshipped by it.

There is an issue I have here where ideas get shot down definitively, and its not really based on the source material. So a statement such as as far as we currently know, this isn't true when we don't know at all doesn't hold water. We know nothing, and there's nothing indicating it isn't. There's at least some things I have pointed to that indicate there is some connection.

Basing your entire speculation or theory on unknown elements isn't the surest way for it to hold water. For example, we don't know that the Skull Knight isn't a robot, but he still isn't. That aside, I don't think you've made a convincing case, otherwise I would agree with you. But it's also fine if we disagree, exchanging ideas is what this place is all about. It's normal that not everyone thinks the same.

Except we just learned last chapter they are serving a greater purpose in maintaining order between the two worlds. And presumably intentionally. And they form pacts with the other world. If you want to view it as completely different, by all means. But I see parallels there.

I have told you before: the individual issues of Berserk are called episodes (話), not chapters ((章). Chapters refer to collections of episodes, like the current Chapter of the Elf Island. I would expect someone theorizing on the big picture in Berserk to get such details right. Moving on...

Try as you might, your sentence: "If there are beings in the Astral world which are opposite to the Idea of Evil in some sense, magic users are tapping into it a bit like the Apostles with the Idea of Evil." is far-fetched and will remain so. Like I have stated before, no direct opposition to the Idea of Evil has been made evident at this point in the story (it's a more asymmetrical relation), and beyond that, the way magic users enlist the help of spiritual entities, or just use their knowledge of the world to achieve a result, works really completely differently from how apostles are created. And if I wanted to nitpick, I'd point out that apostles don't "tap into" the Idea of Evil. They are "chosen" and their lives manipulated in such a way that they sacrifice what they hold most dear, receiving in exchange evil power (based on human karma) that permanently twists their soul. The fact magic users might have sealed the World Spiral Tree away in the past or played a role in keeping it at bay does not change anything in that regard.

You know, one can find parallels in everything, but they're not always worth mentioning. Guts has a sword, so does Roderick. That's a parallel right there. Is it relevant? Does it matter at all? No.

1. As far as what's been revealed so far, it seems like the entire Astral world is created by man in a similar way as the Idea of Evil.

I have to disagree with that, actually. There are a few references in the story to the fact the Astral world is filled with the legends, myths and dreams that haunt people's minds. However, several elements show that it wasn't "created by man". The first and most obvious is the fact the Berserk world is divided into three worlds or realms: Corporeal, Astral, Ideal. When people die their souls go through these in order, and they've been established as basically being foundational elements of that universe. The second elements reinforces that notion: the four kings rule over the basic elements of fire, water, earth and air. These entities, alongside more minor spiritual beings like the Lady of the Depths, are shown to be pretty independent creatures whose existence isn't tied to people remembering them. Then there's the fact the Astral and Corporeal worlds were merged in times long past. While we don't know whether the world's existence began like that or whether it's cyclical and so on, the current implication is that separation may have been made-man.

Then there's two ways to view the references to astral creatures existing in people's minds. Either the Astral world subsisted in people's unconscious despite being cut off from the Corporeal world, or people's imagination and dreams, when strong enough, led to the birth of astral creatures (but the Astral world itself already existed, and so did some types of entities, maybe the most ethereal ones). A mix of both is also possible and the most likely to me.

2. The world before wasn't 'good.' And I would reference that good in Berserk isn't really stereotypical good.

Sure. Although I think it's important to keep in mind what I said about "evil" referring to "evil power" or "evil magic". People often get bogged down in philosophical debates about good and evil when the context of evil in Berserk is pretty specific most of the time. Which is why "good" isn't as clearly defined.

3. The outside, the chaos isn't purely good or evil. But there is freedom there.

Yeah obviously. I feel I must point out that it's not clear yet to what extent Falconia limits individual freedoms though, or even how chaotic the outside world really is (I would expect there to be a semblance of order similar to that of the animal kingdom).

Do you reject that Miura draws contrasts between Guts and Griffith? And if Griffith is the false savior, then perhaps what he's saving people from isn't all bad in Miura's view. But it isn't meant to be some cliche of good, either.

Come on, please don't insult me with fallacious questions. I think I made pretty clear what I reject. That aside, I agree with your logic here (and I have myself stated such things years ago).

But you did say in your previous post that "[e]vil is pretty clear-cut in Berserk." So if Griffith is evil, an anti-savior, then it kind of makes sense that the world he is building, or however you want to describe his (new?) dream is evil. Whatever he is ushering in is called the Age of Darkness so that's not too ambiguous to me. So I would think the characteristics of what Griffith/Femto is building would be a good indicator of what Miura is trying to say with the story about evil.

What you state here is all correct, however I have two remarks. The first one is that we don't know what the end-goal of Falconia is yet. I think it still holds some surprises for us. The second is that the core of my point to you was that I don't think your deduction that order=evil and chaos=good is valid. I've given you plenty of reasons why in my previous post, but I'll also point you to episode 301, titled "Chaos". Chaos is how is described the cooperation of humans and apostles. My own beliefs, which I've again stated many times before, are that the opposition will take a form more like "the natural order of things" VS "the human-centric, Idea of Evil-controlled order of things". And that is shown to some extent, I believe, by the opposition between the elemental magic wielded by Schierke and her kind and the kind of human-based, evil magic that powers the Idea of Evil, the God Hand, and the apostles.

My own beliefs may influence my interpretations here, but I see a pretty sterile existence where people are accepting the safety and luxury of Falconia blindly in exchange for presumably their freedom.

I completely understand what you're getting at, and like I told you in a previous post I have myself speculated along those lines before. The thought of an absolute control over mankind feels like it would perfectly fit into the Idea of Evil's schemes. What bothers me about your idea is the notion of a true utopia where there would be no despair, no sorrow, no fear, no suffering. According to episode 83, those are what fuel the Idea of Evil, what ties it to mankind. Maybe this is where the canon will diverge from it, but I still think it would be a strange development. If all of humanity were to live free of strife and negative thought, would that tie subsist? So I think those need to remain even in such a scenario. Basically, humans being content to merely live bland, meaningless lives isn't bad enough, in my opinion.

Offline Kaladin

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Re: Episode 345
« Reply #140 on: August 05, 2016, 06:33:29 AM »
Looks like young animal will be releasing a berserk guidebook!

CDJapan

Amazon Japan

Release Date Will be September 23
« Last Edit: August 05, 2016, 06:43:44 AM by Kaladin »

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Episode 345
« Reply #141 on: August 05, 2016, 07:54:57 AM »
Looks like young animal will be releasing a berserk guidebook!

Release Date Will be September 23

Good find! However I'm not sure this will be of much interest to long time fans. Maybe there'll be some new artwork from Miura for it? Or some new character names will be transliterated?

Offline Kaladin

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Re: Episode 345
« Reply #142 on: August 05, 2016, 08:09:59 AM »
that's exactly what i was thinking, probably no new significant information about the story. Hopefully some new artwork on the front cover or inside the book. what would be super neat if it comes with an interview with miura  :carcus:. new transliterated names would be pretty neat too, especially for the new characters on skellig, the young mages and the gurus. i also wanna know if its laban or raban, better be raban  :femto:

Offline jackson_hurley

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Re: Episode 345
« Reply #143 on: August 06, 2016, 01:50:03 PM »
I'd like a map, or a mini map. I've always been curious to see what the countries and continent must look like. Especially Midland.

Offline Feeblecursedone

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Re: Episode 345
« Reply #144 on: August 06, 2016, 07:09:17 PM »
I'd like a map, or a mini map. I've always been curious to see what the countries and continent must look like. Especially Midland.

A map of the entire world would be pretty awesome. I've always wondered wether there's more than one continent. Also more remote islands is always sweet.

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Episode 345
« Reply #145 on: August 06, 2016, 09:19:42 PM »
I've always wondered wether there's more than one continent.

There seems to be, from what we see in episode 305.

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Re: Episode 345
« Reply #146 on: August 06, 2016, 10:12:59 PM »
a map of falconia or a never before seen angles of the city would be pretty cool too

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Re: Episode 345
« Reply #147 on: August 07, 2016, 04:45:53 PM »
A map of the entire world would be pretty awesome. I've always wondered wether there's more than one continent. Also more remote islands is always sweet.

As Aaz already said, we get a good look at the surrounding geography in Ep 305. I made these little images to provide a slightly better look: http://www.skullknight.net/forum/index.php?topic=10381.msg170647#msg170647
:femto: :slan: :ubik:

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Re: Episode 345
« Reply #148 on: August 08, 2016, 09:03:58 PM »
As Aaz already said, we get a good look at the surrounding geography in Ep 305. I made these little images to provide a slightly better look: http://www.skullknight.net/forum/index.php?topic=10381.msg170647#msg170647

Wow, I forgot about all this discussion of a "map." Multiple threads too. I could totally see Miura just doing one extemporaneously one day, and by extemporaneously, I mean he'd spend months on it. :ganishka:

Offline Feeblecursedone

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Re: Episode 345
« Reply #149 on: August 19, 2016, 08:10:10 PM »
If Molda gets to join the group I hope we'll see more of her blood-sacrifice magic. Otherwise I can't think of what use would her role be in the group since we already have two witches.

I like her " fight evil with evil " approach to the situation.