Author Topic: Elfhelm: the stage for the next great tragedy  (Read 8401 times)

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Offline flip

Elfhelm: the stage for the next great tragedy
« on: August 31, 2016, 05:29:01 PM »
After years of waiting, finally we're seeing Guts and Casca reach Elfhelm. The place looks incredibly idyllic, and it seems like a perfect safe haven... which means we'll definitely see the place crash and burn soon. I'd like to hear other people's opinions on how this next bloodbath will occur. We've had two times so far where I imagine, from recent foreshadowing, that there are three big elements that are about to become important.

First, and most obvious, we have the God Hand's interest in destroying the spirit woods, as stated on episode 345. What isn't stated, but is made clear by several comparisons between Skellig and Flora's woods, is that Elfhelm itself seems to be one of these places, and presumably one of the last ones left. So, it stands to reason that the island is a huge target. The amount of witches and fantasy creatures on the place might make it so it's better suited to defend itself from an Apostle attack. For this reason, I imagine the God Hand might actually want to get personally involved in the invasion. We may see at least one of them attacking, maybe even all five (or four, if Griffith is too busy running his city).

Then there is the matter of the Beherit. It's getting a lot of attention recently, with Gedfring giving us some clarification about what it does, as well as restating Flora's questions about who its true owner might be. I think this points towards a payoff to Guts's possession of the item, meaning it's about to finally be activated again.

And lastly, we have Casca. It's about time she gets her sanity back, but as the Skull Knight has implied, she may not see eye-to-eye with Guts. Now, what she'll actually do and remember is anyone's guess. Will she remember all those years with the mentality of a child? Will she know about her kid, and its relation to Griffith? How will she react to all of that, if she does remember? Be it as it may, the story has being pointing towards she and Guts not ending this arc on happy terms with each other.

So, my speculation on how these things will connect is as follows. Casca will be healed, probably with a bit of struggle to get there, but she'll not just gladly rejoin Guts's party. She'll be livid with rage, much like Guts at his darkest hour, the memories of the Eclipse still as fresh on her mind as if they had just happened. This, and the realisation of her powerlessness will make her activate the Beherit and start the Apostle-making ritual. Now, I see two possibilities here. She'll either try to pull a Ganishka and become an Apostle to fight against the God Hand, putting her in direct opposition with Guts, or we may actually see the Apostle-to-be refusing the call for once. Either way, it won't matter, for the activation of the Beherit will open a path for the God Hand to invade the island, bypassing any magical barriers that might have existed there, and another huge battle will ensue. This might be an event as traumatic as the original Eclipse and the fake Eclipse after that, with a few of the characters of Guts's new group dying in the process, and the island being destroyed. But I also think it might have some positive outcomes. Maybe one of the God Hand will even perish fighting the Flowerstorm King, giving the heroes a bit of hope by proving that they can be defeated after all, and setting things up for the endgame.

So, what do you guys think of these predictions, and how do you guys think events will unflod?

Offline Lawliet

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Re: Elfhelm: the stage for the next great tragedy
« Reply #1 on: August 31, 2016, 06:16:12 PM »
After years of waiting, finally we're seeing Guts and Casca reach Elfhelm. The place looks incredibly idyllic, and it seems like a perfect safe haven... which means we'll definitely see the place crash and burn soon.
I don't think Berserk is that kind of story tbh. That's not just predictable but also done to death in so many works.

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And lastly, we have Casca. It's about time she gets her sanity back, but as the Skull Knight has implied, she may not see eye-to-eye with Guts. Now, what she'll actually do and remember is anyone's guess. Will she remember all those years with the mentality of a child? Will she know about her kid, and its relation to Griffith? How will she react to all of that, if she does remember? Be it as it may, the story has being pointing towards she and Guts not ending this arc on happy terms with each other.

The only thing Skull Knight meant was that Casca may not want to get her sanity back, as this will cause her to remember the Eclipse. That's how I understand the "your wish may not be her wish" statement. Not that she and Guts  wouldn't see eye to eye. Sure there may be some problems at first but I don't think they will end the arc on bad terms.

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So, my speculation on how these things will connect is as follows. Casca will be healed, probably with a bit of struggle to get there, but she'll not just gladly rejoin Guts's party. She'll be livid with rage, much like Guts at his darkest hour, the memories of the Eclipse still as fresh on her mind as if they had just happened. This, and the realisation of her powerlessness will make her activate the Beherit and start the Apostle-making ritual. Now, I see two possibilities here. She'll either try to pull a Ganishka and become an Apostle to fight against the God Hand, putting her in direct opposition with Guts, or we may actually see the Apostle-to-be refusing the call for once. Either way, it won't matter, for the activation of the Beherit will open a path for the God Hand to invade the island, bypassing any magical barriers that might have existed there, and another huge battle will ensue. This might be an event as traumatic as the original Eclipse and the fake Eclipse after that, with a few of the characters of Guts's new group dying in the process, and the island being destroyed. But I also think it might have some positive outcomes. Maybe one of the God Hand will even perish fighting the Flowerstorm King, giving the heroes a bit of hope by proving that they can be defeated after all, and setting things up for the endgame.

Some problems with this:

1. If I understand how the beherit works correctly, it makes the person using it go to the God Hand and not the opposite. So they can't use it to get to Elfhelm I believe.
2. Beherits are also activated when it's user is utterly broken. I don't think that's what we would describe Casca when the Sovereign of the Flower Storm is done with her.
3. I'm not sure we know how Beherits work exactly now that the God Hand are present in the world.
4. It's probably too early for a battle you're describing to take place.

IMO the entire thing sounds far too unlikely.

"There are no pacts between men and lions. Wolves and lambs cannot enjoy a meeting of the minds." ~ Achilles, the Iliad of Homer

Offline Nothingwillbewong

Re: Elfhelm: the stage for the next great tragedy
« Reply #2 on: August 31, 2016, 06:42:06 PM »
Honestly what I'm more interested in is what the corridor of dreams will be all about if it will be an mc escher like universe inside casca or something much simpler than that

Offline favole

Re: Elfhelm: the stage for the next great tragedy
« Reply #3 on: August 31, 2016, 08:59:16 PM »
I agree with Lawliet, not to say your idea of a bloodbath is completely unlikely because we can't really know for sure (as it's just the beginning of their time there), but Skellig Island remained out of Griffith's interest so far, so why would he suddenly order an attack on the island?

As several people already explained in different threads, now that the world tree appeared, it doesn't seem likely that Griffith would attack simply to destroy a few more spirit woods, I think the matter of the Beherit is completely unrelated and it's not because of Guts and Casca's presence on the island either, since he has no more feelings about them as he said in volume 22.

So if there is a bloodbath at some point on Skellig Island, I think the triggering event leading to it did not happen yet in the story, that's why for the moment, with what we've read about, I would also consider it's unlikely.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2016, 09:59:15 PM by favole »

Offline DANGERDOOOOM

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Re: Elfhelm: the stage for the next great tragedy
« Reply #4 on: August 31, 2016, 10:36:15 PM »
She'll either try to pull a Ganishka and become an Apostle to fight against the God Hand, putting her in direct opposition with Guts, or we may actually see the Apostle-to-be refusing the call for once.

Ganishka didn't become an apostle just so he could be in disposition of the God Hand. He decided that later himself as an apostle.

Either way, no. I highly doubt Casca will activate the beherit and become an apostle.

Maybe one of the God Hand will even perish fighting the Flowerstorm King, giving the heroes a bit of hope by proving that they can be defeated after all, and setting things up for the endgame.

We don't know the power of the Sovereign of Flower Storm compared to that of the God Hand as of yet. I doubt the God Hand will make a true appearance on Elfhelm unless the beherit is somehow activated. If one was to make an appearance, it would be like what happened in the Qliphoth with Guts and Slan.

The idea of having one of the God Hand die by the Sovereign of Flower Storm doesn't have a lot of weight on it now.

Offline Lithrael

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Re: Elfhelm: the stage for the next great tragedy
« Reply #5 on: September 01, 2016, 12:09:15 PM »
Either way, no. I highly doubt Casca will activate the beherit and become an apostle.

Though it would be quite a twist, it's off the table from the start because all the things that would make suitable Casca-sacrifices have already been sacrificed.  You'd need a lot of post-sane Casca time in the story to even try to build up an idea like her caring enough about Farnese or even (if it were possible) moon baby, before that choice would have any narrative tension.  (Though it'd make a cute Omake for her to end the show by sacrificing Incarnated GrifFemto.)

Offline MrFlibble

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Re: Elfhelm: the stage for the next great tragedy
« Reply #6 on: September 12, 2016, 09:47:15 PM »
I don't believe there are any large tradgic twists due for Elfhelm, the Eclipse sometimes paints the themes of the series in the wrong light, Berserk isn't constant tragedy and suffering (just a lot of it  :guts:).

I don't believe Casca will use the Beirut for two reasons
1) Guts is Griffiths sacrifice, and sacrifices cannot be branded twice, since you can only sacrifice what is most important to you, and the only two candidates that fit the bill for Casca are off limits, Casca has nothing to sacrifice.

2) Cascas mind was restored in a game written by Miura, in that she doesn't react with hatred or insanity towards Guts, I know it's reaching to use a forgotten game from the nineties as evidence for what will happen now, Miura is the type to foreshadow things long in advance, so I think this is an indication that Casca will not lose her mind upon regaining her sanity.

I can imagine the God Hand invading Elfhelm, and I honestly don't think Griffith is suited to the task, however I'm not sure how the God Hand will accomplish this, as far as we know they are still relegated to only appearing in habitats of immense darkness, how they will manage to manifest in happy Elf land is anyone's guess.

Offline Vixen Comics

Re: Elfhelm: the stage for the next great tragedy
« Reply #7 on: September 17, 2016, 05:13:55 AM »
I'm a little disturbed by how some think Casca will be the cause of the next tragedy on elf helm though some kind of betrayal like using the beherit to sacrifice someone. Hasn't it been touched on a sacrifice can't be sacrificed twice? Or try to sacrifice some one else? Also I really would be upset if Casca post healing would have such a weak character as to even resort to using the beherit. The thing ruined her life and she witnessed everyone she cared about killed because of the Godhand. I don't think she would resort to using one herself.
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Offline Delta Phi

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Re: Elfhelm: the stage for the next great tragedy
« Reply #8 on: September 17, 2016, 10:55:30 PM »
Or try to sacrifice some one else?

That hasn't be specifically addressed. Twice Slan has mused over Guts becoming an apostle, even though he is branded. If it were impossible I don't know that she would keep bringing it up. Though the second time she mentions it (in the Qliphoth), it seems she is merely trying to provoke an emotional response out of Guts instead of actually seriously suggesting it.

Offline Cyrus Jong

Re: Elfhelm: the stage for the next great tragedy
« Reply #9 on: September 18, 2016, 12:47:34 AM »
That hasn't be specifically addressed. Twice Slan has mused over Guts becoming an apostle, even though he is branded. If it were impossible I don't know that she would keep bringing it up. Though the second time she mentions it (in the Qliphoth), it seems she is merely trying to provoke an emotional response out of Guts instead of actually seriously suggesting it.
I really wouldn't say the first instance (which I assume is during the Count's ceremony in Volume 3) was suggesting it either. She just remarked how she would "love it" if Guts "became one of [theirs]," which Conrad immediately shoots down. Personally, I don't take it to mean anything other than how she expresses her depraved lust for him. Or perhaps how she would love the irony of someone who becomes an Apostle despite (or more accurately, because) of his supreme hatred for them.

Offline Walter

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Re: Elfhelm: the stage for the next great tragedy
« Reply #10 on: September 18, 2016, 01:14:33 AM »
Hasn't it been touched on a sacrifice can't be sacrificed twice? Or try to sacrifice some one else?

I don't think the series has ruled out a sacrifice using a Beherit. It's just unlikely to happen in the story, and wouldn't make a terrible amount of sense. For years I thought it strictly wasn't possible, because of Conrad's words in Vol 3. But then I noticed something about when God Hand talk are talking about Beherits and being ordained by causality.

I think what Conrad said had less to do with Guts being a sacrifice, and more to do with his relationship with the Beherit. Conrad said Guts wasn't "ordained" to be among them as an apostle during the Count's ceremony. But shortly afterwards, Guts ends up with a Beherit, which he's carried around ever since. Now, let's recall Ubik's words to Griffith in Volume 12: "From the moment you took possession of that crimson Beherit, you had the qualities to become a demon ... No, perhaps I should say that because you had those qualities, it fell into your hands."

Though these two dialogues are separated by almost 10 volumes worth of material, the thrust of this argument is reinforced by the repeated urgings from Slan (Vol 3, 26) and the specters (Vol 16), for Guts to use it. That could all be merely dramatic tension or a true threat. But if he ever took the offer, it would be a dead-end in terms of the story.

Let's apply that potential outcome to the two most obvious scenarios:

Guts takes the deal, however unlikely that sounds. This effectively ends the series. Guts is no longer a human, and the God Hand have influence over him, just like what happened when Ganishka faced Griffith in Vritannis. Thus, the conflict at the heart of the series would come to a swift and unsatisfying end.

Casca takes the deal. There'd be no saving her from that. Whether he can bring himself to kill her or not, Guts would be demoralized, and his consistent savior to relinquish the Beast's hold on him would be gone.

So... yeah, it's not something I like spending too much time debating. I'm a pragmatic guy, and hypotheticals aren't really my thing. Instead, as we've said here for years, I can't help but think that Miura has bigger plans for it than merely another apostle ceremony.
:femto: :slan: :ubik:

Offline The Awful Truth

Re: Elfhelm: the stage for the next great tragedy
« Reply #11 on: January 01, 2017, 05:49:19 PM »
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Casca takes the deal. There'd be no saving her from that. Whether he can bring himself to kill her or not, Guts would be demoralized, and his consistent savior to relinquish the Beast's hold on him would be gone.

I do believe that Casca is the character who is most likely to use Guts' Beherit and this is why.

The Beherit that Guts is carrying is basically a

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chekhov%27s_gun

There's no reason for that Beherit to be there unless it will be used by someone in Guts' party. I'm just saying that Casca is more qualified to use it than anyone else in Guts' party.

What's the most important lesson from the Eclipse? That sometimes people can't go back to how they used to be.

All the warning signs are there that something bad might happen after Casca's mind is "fixed":

1. Nobody asked Casca if she wants to be cured. That's probably the most important thing about all this. Guts, Farnese, and Schierke may think that they are helping Casca, but does Casca see it that way?

2. Guts didn't tell his new comrades anything about what really happened during the Eclipse or about Casca's miscarriage or about their child. Schierke might have some ideas about what happened (although she is obviously wrong about the moonchild being the Elf Queen's avatar) but Farnese is totally clueless. Are they really qualified to fix Casca's mind? I'm not so sure. I believe that only Guts can truly help Casca, but the problem is that Casca now hates and fears him.

3. What exactly is being hinted at in Episode 202 when Guts asks Flora to teach him how to use the Beherit and we see Casca suddenly run into the room. Why is she there? Guts isn't going to sacrifice Casca (or anyone else) so what's Miura trying to tell us in that scene? It's not like Casca suddenly wanted to be with Guts, she already hates and fears him at that point in the story.

4. Casca isn't 100% mentally disabled. She was able to safely jump down the cliff in the Conviction story arc, she was able to pick up a sword and kill those bandits who tried to rape her in the Falcon Of The Millennium story arc, and she is clearly able to recognize her child. We even see her feeding the moonchild in Episode 238. What happens if Casca really didn't want her mind to be "fixed"? Will she get angry? Will she become irrational and hostile to the party? Even Golden Age Casca was emotionally disturbed and suicidal at one point. She just isn't as strong as Guts physically and mentally.

We have seen many times in Berserk that people can't escape their fate no matter what they do. I understand why many fans might not like such a tragic outcome. But even if most fans don't like it, that doesn't make it illogical.

I am certainly not suggesting that Casca will suddenly turn into an evil, vengeful bitch and sacrifice Farnese just to get a power up. Of course not, that would be stupid. Casca will have to hit rock bottom and be at a point of no return before she uses the Beherit. If it happens, it happens. I expect that Miura will not disappoint us. The Skull Knight did warn Guts that Casca may not want what he wants. Miura has never mislead the audience before. He basically told us back then that there won't be any happy ending for Guts & Casca.
And we have seen that the Godhand can be very persuasive. They don't exactly lie but they do twist the truth to convince the person who summoned them to accept their offer. Casca does have something that her new friends can't help her with, her child.

Again, it's not so implausible that the Godhand might show Casca visions of her child and convince her that the only way she can "save" her child is by ascending beyond normal human limits. It doesn't help than one of the Godhand is a woman. Slan might convince Casca that:

1. she can't rely on others
2. the men who she loved have only hurt her
3. a good mother will sacrifice anything for her child

Golden Age Casca would never accept anything the Godhand have to offer but that version of Casca doesn't exist anymore. She is now a rape victim and a mother who lost her child. Her mind regressed to an infantile state for a good reason.

Guts is the only person there who truly loves Casca and knows everything about her. That's undeniable. I believe that Guts is far more qualified to help heal Casca's mind than some kid who barely knows her or some friendly noblewoman who knows almost nothing about what Casca has been through. So it looks very strange that the Elf Queen (who supposedly knows everything) already refused to use the power of love to cure Casca in this magical therapy session. It almost looks like the therapy session is already set up to fail badly, not because the Elf Queen has any malicious intentions but because it has to fail to advance the story.
And I don't buy the explanation that the all-powerful Elf Queen (who knows everything) somehow can't use her magic to calm Casca down so that Guts can participate in the therapy.

And just to remind everyone how unqualified Schierke is to help Casca during the therapy, see Episode 252. She couldn't even help Casca bathe. Casca doesn't listen to her and doesn't obey her at all. Farnese is more qualified than Schierke but see Episode 288. Farnese doesn't understand why Casca hates and fears Guts. What is Miura telling us here? That Farnese has good intentions but she doesn't really know Casca at all.

Of course we know that the Godhand are evil bastards who couldn't care less about actually helping Casca but does Casca understand this? What she knows is that the Godhand took Griffith's broken, incapacitated body and gave him a new life.

Casca does remember how the apostles raped her but this is unfortunately yet another reason why she might accept the Godhand's offer now. Casca might feel that she must become stronger at any cost so that nobody can hurt her again. She isn't stupid. Even if she is given a magical weapon I don't see her getting very far. Hell, Serpico and Isidro have magical weapons but they didn't kill a single apostle during the battle in the Spirit Tree Forest, and there's no spare set of berserker armor for Casca to use.

What is Casca's dream now? She wanted to be useful to Griffith but that dream is over. I think that now Casca just wants to be with her child but she also wants to be strong enough so that men and demons can't hurt her ever again. Looking at this from her point of view it actually makes a lot of sense for her to ascend beyond human limits.

And yes I definitely understand why many fans don't like this idea at all. They want Golden Age Casca back. They want Guts and Casca to become lovers again. They want Guts and Casca to work together to defeat Griffith and then settle down and live happily ever after. But this is Berserk that we are talking about. Guts not dying in the end would be a happy ending.

Speaking of what may happen in Elfhelm, we know that Griffith considers all magic users to be a threat. But his army can't launch a surprise attack on Elfhelm because all the wizards and witches can sense od. They would be able to sense the evil od of Griffith's soldiers from miles away. The archmages and the Elf Queen are certainly smart enough to expect and prepare for an invasion from the outside. So what's the best way to destroy Elfhelm? Have someone (Casca) use the Beherit to summon the Godhand in Elfhelm.

We haven't yet seen members of the Godhand fight a real battle. We don't know what they are truly capable of but it's obvious that they are much more powerful than the apostles. If anyone can destroy Elfhelm, it's them.

Nothing is a coincidence in Berserk. It's not a coincidence that Guts obtained the Count's Beherit. It's not a coincidence that Zodd destroyed the elf cave thus forcing Guts and Casca to travel to Elfhelm in the first place. And it's not a coincidence that Farnese in now Casca's best friend and easily qualifies as a sacrifice.

Guts was warned that it's dangerous to own and carry a Beherit but he didn't listen, something bad has to happen sooner or later.

Offline Walter

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Re: Elfhelm: the stage for the next great tragedy
« Reply #12 on: January 02, 2017, 01:43:44 AM »
Thanks for the long post Awful Truth. I always appreciate it when people endeavor to clearly articulate their points.

It seems that my post might have spurred yours on, but I think you're discounting some of the nitty gritty details, along with the natural fallout, of a scenario where Casca sacrifices someone. Who would it be? How would Guts move on after such an event?

The Beherit that Guts is carrying is basically a https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chekhov%27s_gun

I don't think it's necessary to namecall Chekov's Gun in relation to Guts' beherit. Its significance and the dramatic tension surrounding it has been made pretty clear. And I also think viewing it through this lens -- introducing an object with a singular purpose that must be used in that way or dramatic tension will remain unfulfilled -- is misleading. We've seen the function of beherits subverted before, and I doubt we've seen the last of it.

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What's the most important lesson from the Eclipse? That sometimes people can't go back to how they used to be.

They won't go back to how they used to be. Casca is inevitably going to emerge a different woman. The relationship dynamic with Guts is going to be different as well. I also don't think that's THE fundamental lesson of the Eclipse. Instead, it's:  A true friend stabs you in the front :guts: :griffnotevil:

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1. Nobody asked Casca if she wants to be cured. That's probably the most important thing about all this. Guts, Farnese, and Schierke may think that they are helping Casca, but does Casca see it that way?

They have had no way of doing that. But the real reason for the obscurity here is that Miura has chosen to leave Casca's intentions as a blank slate, likely to create suspense for events to be revealed in the coming episodes.

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Are they really qualified to fix Casca's mind? I'm not so sure. I believe that only Guts can truly help Casca, but the problem is that Casca now hates and fears him.

Danan seemed to think so, and given her obvious mastery over this ceremony, I don't foresee her insistence on omitting Guts backfiring on them. Rather, Guts' lack of presence there now signals that his role in reaclimating Casca (and rediscovering who this new Casca is) is going to be a separate struggle that's yet to come.

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3. What exactly is being hinted at in Episode 202 when Guts asks Flora to teach him how to use the Beherit and we see Casca suddenly run into the room. Why is she there?

I think you might be looking too hard for evidence. Casca wanders into view for a narrative purpose -- so that the topic of conversation can naturally change to her.

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4. Casca isn't 100% mentally disabled.

I've never seen anyone argue that she was...?

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What happens if Casca really didn't want her mind to be "fixed"? Will she get angry? Will she become irrational and hostile to the party?

Casca, get angry? Noooooo. :ganishka: Seriously though, what are you insinuating exactly? That she'll become a threat to the party?

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I understand why many fans might not like such a tragic outcome. But even if most fans don't like it, that doesn't make it illogical.

What would be illogical is for Miura to string out Casca's tragic demise for more than 20 years, with Guts suffering all along the way, only to cash out at the end with another bucket o tragedy. Instead of what it seems like is happening: A journey of restoration, after which Guts may finally have the ally he needs who can rescue him from his own torments.

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The Skull Knight did warn Guts that Casca may not want what he wants. Miura has never mislead the audience before. He basically told us back then that there won't be any happy ending for Guts & Casca.

That's a very specific reading of a very general prophecy.

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Casca does have something that her new friends can't help her with, her child.

Don't know about that. These friends are probably the ones who ARE going to help her with her child.

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I believe that Guts is far more qualified to help heal Casca's mind than some kid who barely knows her or some friendly noblewoman who knows almost nothing about what Casca has been through. So it looks very strange that the Elf Queen (who supposedly knows everything) already refused to use the power of love to cure Casca in this magical therapy session. It almost looks like the therapy session is already set up to fail badly, not because the Elf Queen has any malicious intentions but because it has to fail to advance the story.

Whew, this sounds like something you should take up in Elfhelm Appeals Court, not here. Anyway, it seems to me that you're overlooking the real culprit here. Guts knows Casca better, certainly. But Danan (wisely) detects that he could do more harm than help because of their history. That's pretty logical, to me.

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And I don't buy the explanation that the all-powerful Elf Queen (who knows everything) somehow can't use her magic to calm Casca down so that Guts can participate in the therapy.

This sounds ridiculous, even in the context of them inhaling spores and mind-melding with Casca. A spell so that she's calm when they're intentionally seeking out her inner mind to help her confront her about her darkest memories? How would that work exactly? Wouldn't such a thing be against the grain of the entire mission? At that point, why have this scene at all? Why not just have the Queen cast a spell to restore Casca period?

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Of course we know that the Godhand are evil bastards who couldn't care less about actually helping Casca but does Casca understand this? What she knows is that the Godhand took Griffith's broken, incapacitated body and gave him a new life.

And condemned she and her friends to being eviscerated and raped.

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Casca does remember how the apostles raped her but this is unfortunately yet another reason why she might accept the Godhand's offer now. Casca might feel that she must become stronger at any cost so that nobody can hurt her again. She isn't stupid.

She isn't stupid, but this notion is. "Condemn me? I'll serve you. Devour my friends and make a sexual plaything of my unconscious body? Let's hang. Hands off my kid, though."

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Hell, Serpico and Isidro have magical weapons but they didn't kill a single apostle during the battle in the Spirit Tree Forest

Granted, they had about 2 days of experience using those weapons and no knowledge of apostles. I'll bet they could take out quite a few now. Weird topic to bring up here...?

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What is Casca's dream now?

We haven't met the new Casca yet.

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And yes I definitely understand why many fans don't like this idea at all. They want Golden Age Casca back.

Not sure who you're talking about exactly, but anyone who expects that the Corridor of Dreams is going to somehow result in Golden Age Casca isn't a very close reader of Berserk.

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They want Guts and Casca to become lovers again. They want Guts and Casca to work together to defeat Griffith and then settle down and live happily ever after. But this is Berserk that we are talking about.

That's right, it's Berserk, not Game of Thrones. The author of Berserk is interested in telling a consequential story that flows naturally, not with fits and starts of murder to punctuate the boring scenes. The series does not necessarily need to end with every main character's head on a pike.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2017, 02:28:48 AM by Walter »
:femto: :slan: :ubik:

Offline The Awful Truth

Re: Elfhelm: the stage for the next great tragedy
« Reply #13 on: January 02, 2017, 03:08:09 AM »
Chekov's Gun is a good point, but I don't see why it must be used by any member of Guts party : perhaps Guts just carry it for someone else, could even be someone we haven't even met yet. Maybe the beherit won't be used at all the way we've seen so far, but as a mean to reach a better understanding of the God Hands and their potential weaknesses.

I agree it must have a purpose, but at this point we can't know for sure what it'll be used for.

1. Skullknight himself hinted that, indeed, she might not want to be "cured" as it would mean remembering the Eclipse. We can't really say what will happen, but in my opinion it's really unlikely Casca will use the Beherit to become an apostle, first and foremost because she has nothing to sacrifice, she already lost it all.

She has Farnese. Since Volume 24 to the latest episode Casca treats Farnese as her best friend.

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2.The way I understand it, the cluelessness of Farnese and Schierke is precisely their strenght to perform the ritual : they don't know about the eclipse, so they don't have any hatred or any other strong, negative feeling that could lead to a failure... And they are witches, their understanding of the astral world can't hurt in the Corridor of Dreams.

The Elf Queen warned them that what they will see in Casca's dreams may not be 100% true. Of course we haven't yet seen the official English translation of Episode 347 but if the scanlations are accurate it may mean that Farnese and Schierke will not necessarily see the Eclipse or even the aftermath of the Eclipse. They might see "Casca's version" of what happened but it may be very different from the truth. This is why I believe that they aren't really qualified to help Casca. Guts knows Casca much better than they do. Guts could probably figure out what Casca's dreams really mean.

It's not just the Eclipse, what's much more important is why Casca now hates and fears Guts. Farnese and Schierke don't know that Guts abandoned Casca in a cave for 2 years, physically and sexually assaulted her, tied her up like a prisoner, and dragged her along against her will. This is very important. I always assumed that Casca's therapy will involve Guts going into her mind and apologizing to her for what he did. I'm sure that Farnese and Schierke will see "Casca's version" of what Guts did, but the problem is they don't know what really happened. So how can they possibly understand what Casca is trying to tell them?

What may happen is that Casca's "dream version" of Guts will be a cruel and ugly monster that bears no resemblance to the real Guts. If "dream Guts" appears as the werewolf-like creature Farnese and Schierke may notice a resemblance to the berserker armor. But how do you think they will react to that? We can't deny that Farnese and Schierke have feelings for Guts. In other words, they are biased. They see Guts as a hero who always protects Casca. It may never occur to them that maybe Guts did something bad to Casca. And we already saw that Farnese is beginning to lose her patience with Casca. I will not be surprised if Farnese finally snaps and flat out accuses Casca of being an ungrateful bitch. Of course the Elf Queen can always interrupt the therapy if things begin to go wrong but I still don't understand why Farnese and Schierke were chosen to participate in this therapy in the first place. Why couldn't the Elf Queen do it herself or perhaps ask more experienced witches for help? I'm sure there are plenty of them in Elfhelm.

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4. All these times her life was at stake, I don't think she will try to react violently while being "cured".

Well, the main issue here is if Casca even wants to be cured and also how she is cured. If Casca is cured against her will by two people who don't really know her and don't really understand her feelings it can easily lead to a tragic outcome. Casca might feel that she was betrayed by her new friends, that they violated her mind. And if that happens Casca may very well hit rock bottom and thus qualify to use that Beherit.

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Except it's not consistant with what we've seen so far, Beherit's users are taken to the God Hands, not the other way around. We don't know how it works in Fantasia, but it's pretty unlikely anyway.

The people who used their Beherits were taken to the Godhand's realm when the physical world and the astral world were still separate. But that's no longer the case. Guts didn't use his Beherit in the Troll Cave but that didn't stop Slan from appearing. And we have seen in Volume 34 that the other 4 members of the Godhand are now in the physical world even though they don't have actual physical bodies. Think about that for a minute. There are literally 5 angels/devils now living somewhere in the physical world. They are a huge threat.

We have seen what the 4 Elemental Kings and various other spirits who were summoned by Schierke are capable of. I'm sure that the oldest, most experienced mages in Elfhelm can put up a very strong resistance to any invasion from the outside world.

If the Godhand do not appear in Elfhelm I don't see any other way how Elfhelm can be destroyed. Griffith's human soldiers would stand no chance against real magic users let alone against all the mythical creatures in Elfhelm. Even the apostles would have a hard time conquering the whole island and killing every single magic user. Griffith has always been portrayed as a military genius, he isn't likely to start a battle that he can't win.

Offline The Awful Truth

Re: Elfhelm: the stage for the next great tragedy
« Reply #14 on: January 02, 2017, 04:17:43 AM »
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What would be illogical is for Miura to string out Casca's tragic demise for more than 20 years, with Guts suffering all along the way, only to cash out at the end with another bucket o tragedy. Instead of what it seems like is happening: A journey of restoration, after which Guts may finally have the ally he needs who can rescue him from his own torments.

I'm aware that this may be what Miura has in mind but does this really make sense? You said it yourself, the new Casca will not be the Golden Age Casca. I don't see why the new Casca should "rescue" Guts from his own inner demons.

Guts fell in love (and conceived a child) with Golden Age Casca, not with this new Casca. And let's be realistic here, I know this sounds like a broken record but Guts did some pretty bad things to Casca. Guts abandoned Casca in a cave for 2 years, physically and sexually assaulted her, tied her up like a prisoner, and dragged her along against her will. Most people wouldn't stay friends after something like that. I will not be surprised if Casca decides that she wants nothing to do with Guts and Griffith ever again.

Having Casca hit rock bottom and use the Beherit thus causing the destruction of Elfhelm sounds like Eclipse 3.0 and I understand why that would be boring and predictable to some fans.

But having the new, cured Casca somehow "help" Guts in the future would be equally cliched and boring in my opinion. I know that it's a work of fiction and it's not going to be 100% realistic but you know... Guts did some pretty bad things to Casca. Why should Casca do anything for Guts after she is cured? Why can't she move on with her life and pursue her own dreams?

Guts has many new friends who can help him. Why not use them?

I believe that the story is nowhere near finished and I certainly don't believe that Elfhelm will be the last stop for Guts and his party. I don't even see Elfhelm as the last bastion of humanity. But I do think that Silat's hometown will be that place.
The Bakiraka philosophy of relying only on "our own bodies and skills" to survive in Berserk's cruel world (not some God, or angels, or other supernatural beings) fits Guts perfectly. That's exactly what Guts has been doing since he was a kid and that's exactly the kind of allies he needs. They, and his friends, can help him to overcome his inner demons.

Offline Vixen Comics

Re: Elfhelm: the stage for the next great tragedy
« Reply #15 on: January 02, 2017, 06:22:21 AM »
The awful truth I think you are barking up the wrong tree on this. I don't know where to start. You keep mentioning guts did a lot of bad things to casca but he has done a lot of good things for her as well. Do you think none of that will have any bearing on casca? My hope is that casca will be able to objectively evaluate the things that occurred to her after she gets her mind back. And Farnese is not a bitch, she won't call casca an ungrateful bitch regardless on whether or not she has feelings for guts and idolises him. Farnese has supported casca this whole time why would that stop?
/center]

Offline The Awful Truth

Re: Elfhelm: the stage for the next great tragedy
« Reply #16 on: January 02, 2017, 08:29:11 AM »
The awful truth I think you are barking up the wrong tree on this. I don't know where to start. You keep mentioning guts did a lot of bad things to casca but he has done a lot of good things for her as well. Do you think none of that will have any bearing on casca? My hope is that casca will be able to objectively evaluate the things that occurred to her after she gets her mind back. And Farnese is not a bitch, she won't call casca an ungrateful bitch regardless on whether or not she has feelings for guts and idolises him. Farnese has supported casca this whole time why would that stop?

I will be honest, I never liked Casca as a character. Her obsession with Griffith, her hysterical behavior, her screaming at Guts that it's all his fault after Griffith got wounded fighting Zodd. I know this isn't a popular opinion but Casca was always an annoying, unpleasant person. She was always subconsciously hostile to Guts since the day Guts joined the Band Of The Hawk.

The biggest problem is that nobody ever told Casca to shut the hell up and know her place. Guts, Griffith, Pippin, and Judo were much better warriors than Casca. We saw it during the battles with the Chuder army, during Griffith's rescue mission, and again during the Eclipse. Of course some fans will say that Casca was under a lot of pressure since she was the only woman in the BOTH and so her worst behavior should be excused. Well you know what, nobody forced her to become a mercenary. It was her choice.

What really made me hate her was her behavior in Volume 9 when she attacked Guts at the waterfall (and this was after Guts once again saved her life a few hours earlier). Comrades aren't supposed to treat each other that way.
I know that people will say "but that was Golden Age Casca and we aren't getting that version of Casca back". So what? She hasn't been a relevant or useful member of Guts' party since 1996. Miura has introduced other female characters who are much more likeable than Casca ever was. Erika, Jill, Luca, Flora, (nice) Farnese, Schierke, Farnese's mother, Isma, and Isma's mother.

Even if Casca changes her personality 180 degrees after her therapy is over, what is the point of keeping her around now? I really do not like this idea that Guts still needs Casca to somehow help him battle his inner demons. I understand that Miura didn't plan that far ahead when he wrote the Eclipse and its aftermath but the fact is that Guts now has new female friends who treat him much better than Casca ever did. Isn't it time for Guts to move on?
« Last Edit: January 02, 2017, 09:24:13 PM by The Awful Truth »

Offline Cyrus Jong

Re: Elfhelm: the stage for the next great tragedy
« Reply #17 on: January 02, 2017, 10:42:14 AM »
And so the "awful truth" as it is comes out. It's amusing how there's always a correlation between how much someone dislikes Casca and how much they theorize she'll turn traitor.

The Awful Truth, you seem to want to have your cake and eat it too. You dismiss why Farnese should partake in the ceremony to restore Casca's mind because she doesn't know her (and even go so far as to say that Farnese won't even try to understand Casca's point of view), but then turn around and say that she's Casca's best friend and the one to qualify as a sacrifice. Either they have a deep emotional bond or they don't. You can't have it both ways. You also ignore a lot of points that were clearly spelled out. Danan outright says that Guts can't delve into Casca's dreams because her fear of him would disturb the ritual. Those who are tied to Casca are the ones most qualified to help her. That's why Schierke and Farnese were sent in, and complete strangers like the witches of Elfhelm were not. And being as Danan knows how the ritual goes and what needs to be done for it to be a success, I'd say she's a hell of a lot more qualified than you are in knowing what's best for Casca.

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I know this isn't a popular opinion but Casca was always a bitch. She was always subconsciously hostile to Guts since the day Guts joined the Band Of The Hawk.

No, she wasn't. They didn't get along at first, and they butted heads a lot, but they did bond during their time, and she did a lot of nice things to him too. Are you forgetting how happy Casca was to see Guts was alive amidst the piles of dead mercs after the hundred-man battle? How Casca healed Guts' wounds with elven powder and they shared their "Bonfire of Dreams" conversation. How she really didn't want Guts to leave the Falcons? How she comforted him when he had his emotional breakdown during their love scene?

Yeah, what a bitch.  :schierke:

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The biggest problem is that nobody ever told Casca to shut the hell up and know her place. Guts, Griffith, Pippin, and Judo were much better warriors than Casca. We saw it during the battles with the Chuder army, during Griffith's rescue mission, and again during the Eclipse.

What did we see exactly? During the Hundred Year War, we only ever saw Judeau and Pippin fighting ordinary mooks. We saw Casca kill mooks too, on top of Adon, so I'd say she's already got leg up on them. While it's easy to dismiss Mister Corbowitz, anyone with passing knowledge of martial combat would see just how tremendously skilled Casca would have to be to win that fight. Adon had all the advantages; he was bigger than her, stronger, decked in thick armor, and had the advantage of range with his spear. Casca, with her comparatively puny little frame and sword, schooled him without breaking a sweat. And she was still able to kill him even while he poisoned her.

Judeau and Pippin managed to show off some more impressive feats during their clash against the Bakiraka assassins, but Casca was there too (and calling the shots), so that's not really doing much to put them over her on the warrior hierarchy. Not to mention Casca has one thing that they didn't have: leadership abilities. It wasn't Judeau, Pippin, or Guts who led the Falcons during their darkest year when they were declared traitors of Midland, it was her.

Oh, and by the way, Casca's the only person besides Guts to actually have an Apostle kill under her belt. And she didn't have any magical weapons to help her then. So she's already got a few things over the rest of Guts' crew.

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What really made me hate her was her behavior in Volume 9 when she attacked Guts at the waterfall (and this was after Guts once again saved her life a few hours earlier). Comrades aren't supposed to treat each other that way.

And you ignore everything that happened afterwards. How through simple understanding, Casca helped Guts overcome the trauma of being raped and killing his father, which had been haunting him for years, and which cut him far deeper than the little stab wound Casca inflicted on him (and regretted immediately).

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She hasn't been a relevant or useful member of Guts' party since 1996. Miura has introduced other female characters who are much more likeable than Casca ever was. Erika, Jill, Luca, Flora, (nice) Farnese, Schierke, Farnese's mother, Isma, and Isma's mother.

Even if Casca changes her personality 180 degrees after her therapy is over, what is the point of keeping her around now? I really do not like this idea that Guts still needs Casca to somehow help him battle his inner demons. I understand that Miura didn't plan that far ahead when he wrote the Eclipse and its aftermath but the fact is that Guts now has new female friends who treat him much better than Casca ever did. Isn't it time for Guts to move on?

Yeah, Casca hasn't been relevant. She's only been, oh, I don't know, the entire reason this party formed in the first place and has been journeying to Elfhelm. Lovely to see how interchangeable you think female characters are too, and don't care one ounce about Casca's history with Guts, Griffith, and the child. Or don't think she can have any place in the story when she's just a stone's throw away from coming back in full force.

Sorry that Guts feels an attachment to a character that you don't. Sorry if you don't think she should or could be the one to save him from himself, even though she's done that before. Sorry you think it's awful how many mountains Guts is willing to move to help a soul who's been so terribly traumatized and that he should just "move on." There are lots of women in Berserk, but there's only one Casca, and like it or not, she's the only person Guts was ever able to confide in. It takes more than a pair of mammary glands to be able to do that.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2017, 11:07:39 AM by Cyrus Jong »

Offline The Awful Truth

Re: Elfhelm: the stage for the next great tragedy
« Reply #18 on: January 02, 2017, 09:19:43 PM »
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You dismiss why Farnese should partake in the ceremony to restore Casca's mind because she doesn't know her (and even go so far as to say that Farnese won't even try to understand Casca's point of view), but then turn around and say that she's Casca's best friend and the one to qualify as a sacrifice. Either they have a deep emotional bond or they don't. You can't have it both ways.

Farnese qualifies as a sacrifice because Casca sees her as her best friend. And nobody can deny that Farnese is beginning to lose her patience with Casca. That scene was written for a reason.

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Those who are tied to Casca are the ones most qualified to help her. That's why Schierke and Farnese were sent in, and complete strangers like the witches of Elfhelm were not.
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Danan outright says that Guts can't delve into Casca's dreams because her fear of him would disturb the ritual.

It's true that Casca hates and fears Guts however what the Elf Queen didn't seem to consider is that Farnese and Schierke are not exactly an unbiased 3rd party. Yes, they are tied to Casca but they also have strong feelings for Guts. And this could cause a serious problem during the ritual. Farnese and Schierke do not and will not see Guts as a monster the way Casca does. They know almost nothing about Casca's past. So although they are tied to Casca they may not be the most qualified people to cure her.

This happens all the time in fiction. The characters don't know what we know. This already happened in Berserk during the Golden Age story arc. We knew from the beginning of that arc that Griffith will betray and sacrifice his comrades. But of course none of the characters in the story could ever imagine something like that happening.

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No, she wasn't. They didn't get along at first, and they butted heads a lot,


Yes, for 3 years.

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but they did bond during their time, and she did a lot of nice things to him too. Are you forgetting how happy Casca was to see Guts was alive amidst the piles of dead mercs after the hundred-man battle? How Casca healed Guts' wounds with elven powder and they shared their "Bonfire of Dreams" conversation. How she really didn't want Guts to leave the Falcons?


This happened right before the Battle for Doldrey... and then Guts left the Band Of The Hawk.

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How she comforted him when he had his emotional breakdown during their love scene? And you ignore everything that happened afterwards. How through simple understanding, Casca helped Guts overcome the trauma of being raped and killing his father, which had been haunting him for years, and which cut him far deeper than the little stab wound Casca inflicted on him (and regretted immediately).

Yes, Casca began to change for the better... a few days before the Eclipse. I'm not denying that she began to change but it was too little too late.

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she's just a stone's throw away from coming back in full force.

But we are not getting Golden Age Casca back. When Casca is cured she may get a completely different personality and nothing so far implies that she will forgive Guts or want to be with him ever again.

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Lovely to see how interchangeable you think female characters are too, and don't care one ounce about Casca's history with Guts, Griffith, and the child.

I'm aware of that fan-theory but I don't buy it because:

1. Casca's child isn't going to kill himself to help them defeat Griffith. That would be ridiculous and just bad writing because

2. The Idea Of Evil controls and manipulates causality, it planned everything exactly the way it was supposed to be. The IOE planned for Griffith to be incarnated in the body of Casca's child. Is the IOE so incompetent that it unintentionally gave Griffith a fatal flaw that will lead to his defeat? That makes no sense. The IOE is a god. It does not make stupid mistakes.
Does the IOE want Griffith to be defeated someday? That doesn't make much sense either but I guess it's a little more debatable.

I don't believe that Griffith's defeat will have anything to do with Casca or Casca's child. Guts and his allies need to somehow contain or seal away the IOE to disrupt causality. Are you familiar with the works of H.P. Lovecraft (specifically the short story called The Dunwich Horror)? That story is a good example of how the IOE might be "defeated". If Guts and his allies can do this, then and only then it may become possible to defeat Griffith and the rest of the Godhand.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2017, 05:18:12 AM by The Awful Truth »

Offline Cyrus Jong

Re: Elfhelm: the stage for the next great tragedy
« Reply #19 on: January 03, 2017, 10:15:07 AM »
Farnese qualifies as a sacrifice because Casca sees her as her best friend. And nobody can deny that Farnese is beginning to lose her patience with Casca. That scene was written for a reason.

Farnese is only Casca's best friend in as much as her currently simple mind can allow. That may not (and most definitely will not) be the case once she recovers and gains more mental and emotional complexity. Because even in her current state, Casca doesn't know Farnese either. Not enough to make a worthy sacrifice. And that's assuming Casca can even recall the events that happened while she was mad, which will make it even less the case.

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It's true that Casca hates and fears Guts however what the Elf Queen didn't seem to consider is that Farnese and Schierke are not exactly an unbiased 3rd party. Yes, they are tied to Casca but they also have strong feelings for Guts. And this could cause a serious problem during the ritual. Farnese and Schierke do not and will not see Guts as a monster the way Casca does. They know almost nothing about Casca's past. So although they are tied to Casca they may not be the most qualified people to cure her.

You're assuming that any of this is going to be a problem in the ritual at all, 'cause I didn't see any sign that their impressions of Guts would affect anything. It wasn't Guts that broke Casca, it was the Eclipse, and it's the memories of that that she buried deep down in her mind. We already saw the impression of Guts that Casca has of him in her current state in e347, and it really didn't amount to anything outside of background fluff. You're also assuming that even if Guts' prior treatment of Casca does come into play during the ritual, that Schierke and Farnese are just going to turn their heads the other way and ignore it. They're not stupid, and Farnese in particular knows from experience how horrific sexual assault can be. AND she would finally have her answer as to why Casca is so hostile to Guts. It is possible that they won't keep him held up on a pedestal if they do find out too, you know.

And even if it is a problem, simple fact of the matter is that there isn't anyone better. All the witches on the island are strangers, Guts is just too unstable, Schierke is an experienced magic user who Casca is familiar with and doesn't mind, and Farnese is a witch-in-training who Casca is fond of. They're the best they've got. End of discussion.

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This happened right before the Battle for Doldrey... and then Guts left the Band Of The Hawk.

And the fact of the matter is that in that short time, their previous petty arguments no longer mattered. Guts and Casca were able to move past that and get along. Why can't you? And if you want to blame anyone for having things be cut short, then blame Guts. He's the one who left after all, even when Casca begged him not to go. Which, by the way, was a very hurtful thing of him to do to her, hence why she had such a strong emotional reaction once he came back one year later.

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Yes, Casca began to change for the better... a few days before the Eclipse. I'm not denying that she began to change but it was too little too late.

I can see there's no point in trying to change your mind since Casca's irredeemable to you. A few mean words to Guts are enough to place her over the edge, but helping him overcome the most painful memories in his life up to that point are "too little, too late."

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But we are not getting Golden Age Casca back. When Casca is cured she may get a completely different personality and nothing so far implies that she will forgive Guts or want to be with him ever again.

That wasn't my point. My point was is that she's going to become lucid soon. She's going to be able to start thinking for herself again, taking care of herself, talk, fight, find meaning in her life, and bathe without splashing water everywhere again. To continue writing her off as irrelevant (which she never was in the first place) when her recovery is happening right now is stupid as hell.

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I'm aware of that fan-theory but I don't buy it because:

What fan theory? I didn't put any theory in here whatsoever. I merely pointed out that Casca has a very unique and important connection with three extremely vital characters in the series. A connection that no one else in the series has, a connection that can't just be replaced by any female character as you seem to think, and a connection that would imply she has just as much importance as Guts, Griffith and the child.

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2. The Idea Of Evil controls and manipulates causality, it planned everything exactly the way it was supposed to be. The IOE planned for Griffith to be incarnated in the body of Casca's child. Is the IOE so incompetent that it unintentionally gave Griffith a fatal flaw that will lead to his defeat? That makes no sense. The IOE is a god. It does not make stupid mistakes.
Does the IOE want Griffith to be defeated someday? That doesn't make much sense either but I guess it's a little more debatable.

First of all, this isn't Lovecraft's story, this is Miura's. Second of all, the principle of Causality, while powerful and nearly impossible to divert, isn't absolute. Skull Knight explained this to Guts in v18.

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"The world is as moonlight reflected on the water's surface. The moon's light will not be extinguished. So long as the moon exists in the sky, moonlight will remain on the water...and this is a thing which already was.
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"Though minute singular details certainly can occur at the time junction point that even they can't predict, I will in turn gamble everything on that point. And even if it imitates the Eclipse, it doesn't mean it will be exactly the same. The scope too has natural limits in the material domain. Furthermore, that Brand carved into you, it may be an unanticipated aid. As I told you before, due to the Brand, you now live in the 'Interstice.' That is, the borderline between the physical and astral worlds. It's merely a half-step, but you are outside the reason of the world. Maybe you aren't a shadow on the water, but instead a fish that breaches the water's surface."

These junction points in time are where Causality is at its "weakest" and where the God Hand are at their least "omniscient." which is why the Skull Knight always makes his attacks when they're about to unfold. So far, his efforts haven't borne much fruit...but we do have good reason to think Guts' may have.

We're going into theoretical matters here, but tellingly, the bolded part is repeated at the end of e166 (which is, also tellingly, called "Leaping Fish"), when Guts leaps from the top of the tower, sword-first into Mozgus, and right where he needs to be to protect Casca. Guts made his choice to protect Casca at that point, putting her safety and well-being over his revenge on Griffith. The use of this line at this scene emphasizes that Guts may indeed have jumped out of the flow of Causality. Very briefly, and it didn't really change much in the grand scheme of things, for Griffith gained his physical body and went on acquire his own kingdom...but it has left the parents of the child alive. And as we saw at the beginning of v22, the child does indeed have an effect on Griffith. So there you go, a chink in Griffith's armor formed from some miniscule events that didn't go fully with "the plan" as it were.

You can dismiss that as fan theory all you like. But unlike yours, it's based on details from the manga as written by Miura, and not from some short story published in 1929.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2017, 01:26:35 PM by Cyrus Jong »

Offline The Awful Truth

Re: Elfhelm: the stage for the next great tragedy
« Reply #20 on: January 03, 2017, 05:29:28 PM »
Farnese is only Casca's best friend in as much as her currently simple mind can allow. That may not (and most definitely will not) be the case once she recovers and gains more mental and emotional complexity. Because even in her current state, Casca doesn't know Farnese either. Not enough to make a worthy sacrifice. And that's assuming Casca can even recall the events that happened while she was mad, which will make it even less the case.

1. Farnese was written as Casca's best friend since Volume 24 for a good reason. Of course this doesn't necessarily mean that there will be an Eclipse 3.0 and that Farnese will be sacrificed but if it does happen it shouldn't be a surprise to anyone.

2. It makes absolutely no sense for Casca to "lose her memory" of everything that happened when she was insane. What's the point? Guts still has to tell Casca the truth about her child, about Griffith, about the neo-Band Of The Hawk, etc. And at some point Farnese will want to know why Casca hates and fears Guts.

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You're also assuming that even if Guts' prior treatment of Casca does come into play during the ritual, that Schierke and Farnese are just going to turn their heads the other way and ignore it. They're not stupid, and Farnese in particular knows from experience how horrific sexual assault can be. AND she would finally have her answer as to why Casca is so hostile to Guts. It is possible that they won't keep him held up on a pedestal if they do find out too, you know.

No, that's not what I said. Farnese and Schierke were warned by the Elf Queen that what they see in Casca's dreams may not be 100% true or accurate. I'm not saying that they will "look the other way and ignore it". I'm saying that Farnese and Schierke might not understand or believe what Casca is trying to tell them because they don't know what really happened. They have no reason to believe that Guts did anything bad to Casca. All they know is that Guts risked his life over and over to protect Casca.

Puck is the only person there who knows what Guts did to Casca but even he doesn't know about the worst incident (the sexual assault). I don't think we can just ignore and dismiss the significance of this. Casca might feel that nobody can understand what she has been through... which could push her over the edge. We know for a fact that Casca has struggled with depression and even tried to kill herself before. We can't just ignore all that.

The topic of this thread is "possible tragedy in Elfhelm" and I'm offering a what-if scenario about how it might happen.

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And the fact of the matter is that in that short time, their previous petty arguments no longer mattered. Guts and Casca were able to move past that and get along. Why can't you? And if you want to blame anyone for having things be cut short, then blame Guts. He's the one who left after all, even when Casca begged him not to go. Which, by the way, was a very hurtful thing of him to do to her, hence why she had such a strong emotional reaction once he came back one year later.

She attacked him with a deadly weapon and tried to kill him. That's not a normal "strong emotional reaction". That's basically all the evidence we need that Casca had mental problems even before she became insane.

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I can see there's no point in trying to change your mind since Casca's irredeemable to you. A few mean words to Guts are enough to place her over the edge

No, what makes her irredeemable is her violent, psychotic behavior in Volume 9. I'm not even sure if she really began to change for the better after that incident or if she was simply in a happy mood. She seems to have a

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bipolar_disorder

I don't think that Guts needs a mentally ill girlfriend/comrade.

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That wasn't my point. My point was is that she's going to become lucid soon. She's going to be able to start thinking for herself again, taking care of herself, talk, fight, find meaning in her life, and bathe without splashing water everywhere again. To continue writing her off as irrelevant (which she never was in the first place) when her recovery is happening right now is stupid as hell.

Well at this point in the story she basically is irrelevant. Guts, Serpico, Azan, Silat, and the Tapasa are much better warriors than Casca, and there are probably other very skilled warriors in Silat's hometown. Casca's (human) strength and fighting skills are no longer as useful as they used to be in this new world where dangerous mythical beasts are running wild. To have her start learning magic now would be a pointless rehash of what Farnese is already doing.

Turning Casca into an apostle (causing the destruction of Elfhelm in the process) at least creates an interesting and dangerous enemy for Guts to fight, if not in Elfhelm then in the final battle before he faces Griffith. It creates a moral dilemma for Guts. Will he kill the woman he loves in order to fight Griffith? Is defeating Griffith that important to Guts that he will even take Casca's life in order to do so?

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What fan theory? I didn't put any theory in here whatsoever. I merely pointed out that Casca has a very unique and important connection with three extremely vital characters in the series. A connection that no one else in the series has, a connection that can't just be replaced by any female character as you seem to think, and a connection that would imply she has just as much importance as Guts, Griffith and the child.

It's precisely because Griffith is using the body of Casca's child as a vessel why there can be no happy ending for Guts and Casca. That was my point.

The Idea Of Evil planned it this way. Griffith (using the body of Casca's child as a vessel/hostage) has something very important that he can use against Guts even if all his other powers and abilities are severely weakened or disabled. It's not a fatal weakness. It's his trump card. The IOE is not stupid, it knows what it is doing. Even if the IOE is disabled and sealed away, even if causality is disrupted, Guts will have to confront Casca (and kill her) before he can kill Griffith.
Casca will never agree to do anything that might harm her child. Even if she now hates Griffith for what he did to her and to the old BOTH, you can never underestimate a mother's love for her child. This is why I believe that Casca will use that Beherit and will become an apostle. Casca will not allow Guts and his allies to injure or kill her child. In the end she has no choice. She can't stop Guts and his party just by using her normal human fighting skills.

As far back as Episode 92 the Skull Knight warned Guts that Casca's child "someday will bring woe upon you both". This is from the official English translation. So my theory is based on details from the manga as written by Miura unlike these very optimistic fan-theories that Guts, Casca, and their child will work together to defeat Griffith and then will live happily ever after.
In Episode 92 when Guts grabbed Casca's child and tried to kill it Casca fought tooth and nail to protect it. Do you think that scene was written for no reason? Do you really think that scene doesn't foreshadow anything?

And I don't understand why some fans believe that Casca has to cooperate with Guts once she is cured or that she owes him something. She doesn't owe him anything. After the Eclipse she didn't ask him to protect her or to bring her to Elfhelm. In fact since Episode 89 "Awakening to a Nightmare" she made it pretty clear that she wanted Guts to stay the hell away from her. She only began to feel safe and comfortable around Guts at the end of the Conviction story arc but that ended as soon as he physically and sexually assaulted her in Volume 23.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2017, 03:55:57 AM by The Awful Truth »

Offline Arc

Re: Elfhelm: the stage for the next great tragedy
« Reply #21 on: January 05, 2017, 11:40:50 PM »
No, that's not what I said. Farnese and Schierke were warned by the Elf Queen that what they see in Casca's dreams may not be 100% true or accurate. I'm not saying that they will "look the other way and ignore it". I'm saying that Farnese and Schierke might not understand or believe what Casca is trying to tell them because they don't know what really happened. They have no reason to believe that Guts did anything bad to Casca. All they know is that Guts risked his life over and over to protect Casca.

We really have no idea what they will encounter in the corridor of dreams. Is it going to be a stroll through all her memories? Only a random few? Perhaps a select few pertaining to the most stressful portions of her life? Perhaps it will be more like a dream where many memories are warped into one. We have no idea what to expect- it seems likely it will be more of a rescue mission than a puzzle. I doubt Casca will be "trying to tell them" anything with her dreams and I'd be surprised if she even knew they were there until confronted.

If what the Elf King said is true Guts would make Casca more likely to run away or stir up the most vicious memories it only makes sense that the two women who have gotten the closest to her (and also happen to be magic users) be the next choices.


Well at this point in the story she basically is irrelevant.

I would argue she pretty much IS and has been the story for many volumes. The entire party was formed by guts exclusively so he could protect Casca- she is one of the few fires still burning inside guts. The story thus far has pointed out on multiple occasions that her light outshines Guts desire for revenge and is basically the only thing keeping the beast in check.

The Idea Of Evil planned it this way. Griffith (using the body of Casca's child as a vessel/hostage) has something very important that he can use against Guts even if all his other powers and abilities are severely weakened or disabled. It's not a fatal weakness. It's his trump card. The IOE is not stupid, it knows what it is doing. Even if the IOE is disabled and sealed away, even if causality is disrupted, Guts will have to confront Casca (and kill her) before he can kill Griffith.
Casca will never agree to do anything that might harm her child. Even if she now hates Griffith for what he did to her and to the old BOTH, you can never underestimate a mother's love for her child. This is why I believe that Casca will use that Beherit and will become an apostle. Casca will not allow Guts and his allies to injure or kill her child. In the end she has no choice. She can't stop Guts and his party just by using her normal human fighting skills.

A wise french moderator once told me "you really shouldn't extrapolate so much" and I think that is an important lesson for you to learn here.

Firstly, we haven't even met the "new" Casca yet, we can make almost zero assumptions about what she will be like after. In her current "regressed" state she seems to function on mostly instinct. Her physical abilities have stayed with her (complex jumps down the rocks during the conviction arc, killing the mercs that tried to molest her, etc). I would further argue that she is once again acting on instinct when she is feeding moonlight boy by repeating what Farnese had done for her. I think it is obvious that protecting her child also falls under maternal instinct.

Secondly, Femto's incarnation in the body of Casca/Guts child has already proven to be a double edged sword. The encounter on the hill of swords shows that Griffith retained some sort of instinct to protect Casca after the incarnation. There is a lot of speculation that could be made around that event in particular- and if your theory comes to pass and Guts is forced into attacking Casca what happens then? Does Griffith once again protect her? Kinda seems like it goes both ways doesn't it?

Lastly, once Casca does regain her mind who is to say her stance won't change about her child. It obviously no longer resembles the child it was and likely a rational person could come to terms with what has happened. I would imagine at the very least she develop some disdain towards Femto/Griffith.
The night is dark and full of terrors.

Offline The Awful Truth

Re: Elfhelm: the stage for the next great tragedy
« Reply #22 on: January 07, 2017, 08:57:24 AM »
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I would argue she pretty much IS and has been the story for many volumes. The entire party was formed by guts exclusively so he could protect Casca- she is one of the few fires still burning inside guts. The story thus far has pointed out on multiple occasions that her light outshines Guts desire for revenge and is basically the only thing keeping the beast in check.

Yes, Guts protected Casca and put his quest for revenge on hold. However almost everything Guts did so far helped Griffith and paved the way for a hypothetical attack on Elfhelm. The only exception to this is the battle in Enoch Village. I doubt that it helped Griffith / the Godhand / the IOE in any way since it taught the people in that community a valuable lesson, that their God will not protect them or save them but the old, forgotten spirits of the land and the 4 Elemental Kings will.

Don't forget that Guts and his party literally saved the lives of all the noblemen in Vritannis, defeated most of the Kushan enchanted beasts, and ended up saving Zodd's life. Zodd and his goons would have been annihilated by Ganishka if Guts and Schierke weren't there. Even when Guts defeated the Sea God he unintentionally helped Griffith. Now there is one less enemy in the way if Griffith decides to invade Elfhelm. And we can't just ignore the fact that the Elfhelm mages were very worried when they saw Guts' Beherit.

This is why I believe that Guts has unfortunately become Griffith's / IOE's "useful idiot". He sincerely believes that he is protecting and helping the woman he loves... but in reality he is only helping his hated enemy. It's actually really sad and tragic.

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Secondly, Femto's incarnation in the body of Casca/Guts child has already proven to be a double edged sword. The encounter on the hill of swords shows that Griffith retained some sort of instinct to protect Casca after the incarnation. There is a lot of speculation that could be made around that event in particular- and if your theory comes to pass and Guts is forced into attacking Casca what happens then? Does Griffith once again protect her? Kinda seems like it goes both ways doesn't it?

It does go both ways but does it really make a difference if Griffith dies first or if Casca dies first in the final battle?

Let's say that Griffith (and the child) die first. At that point Casca has no reason to continue living and if she's now an apostle Guts still has to kill her. There's no way to pacify her and change her back into a normal human. As far as we know when a human become an apostle it's an irreversible one-way process. If it can be reversed it should certainly require divine intervention from a god that's at least as powerful as the IOE, and nothing in the story so far even hints at the existence of such god. I certainly hope that no such god is introduced into the story now because that would only create massive plot holes. The Idea Of Evil has existed for a very long time, probably since stone age. The Skull Knight fought against the Godhand for at least 1000 years. If there is an "Idea Of Good" or some other good god who can oppose the IOE where was it all this time? I'm confident that Miura will not use such a lame plot twist to defeat Griffith / the Godhand / the IOE.

So even if Casca can somehow be saved in the end, she will never forgive Guts for killing her child. It's still a tragic ending. So what would be a happy ending? If Guts survives, and doesn't become Skull Knight 2.0, and with the help of his friends overcomes his inner demons in the end, that's a happy ending.

Offline Vixen Comics

Re: Elfhelm: the stage for the next great tragedy
« Reply #23 on: January 08, 2017, 03:26:02 AM »
The Awful Truth I don't think anything can be said to change your mind that Casca is destined to betray Guts since you seem to be very biased against her. I do believe she will not be turned into an apostle though. If anything that stupid is ever done to her I will drop the manga quick. But I honestly don't think Miura is planning to have Casca turn into an apostle and stab Guts in the back. My biggest hope is that when Casca  comes back that she will will be vindicated and fans like you will stop speculating that she will turn traitor.
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Offline Arc

Re: Elfhelm: the stage for the next great tragedy
« Reply #24 on: January 08, 2017, 05:13:11 PM »
Don't forget that Guts and his party literally saved the lives of all the noblemen in Vritannis, defeated most of the Kushan enchanted beasts, and ended up saving Zodd's life. Zodd and his goons would have been annihilated by Ganishka if Guts and Schierke weren't there. Even when Guts defeated the Sea God he unintentionally helped Griffith. Now there is one less enemy in the way if Griffith decides to invade Elfhelm. And we can't just ignore the fact that the Elfhelm mages were very worried when they saw Guts' Beherit.

I really don't think ganishka would be a problem for Griffith even if he lost some of his demon army in the holy city. Nor am I sure we can assume that Zodd would have died without Guts intervention- I mean the guy has survived centuries of battle and I don't think Griffith would let his top lieutenant die so easily.

Guys has always struggled against whatever opponent is infront of him and i think the Sea God was another way to show that he has become capable of things that no average human could even dream of. While you could argue this made things easier for Griffith I really don't think it would have been hard for Griffith to deal with the Sea God- I mean just look at the final battle with Ganishka, he didn't even break a sweat against the most powerful apostle. Look at 303:12, tell me Femto is having a hard time.

I won't argue that the beherit doesn't seem like a good ticket for the godhand into elfhiem but I think any magic user who knows what a beherit is would be wise to be very worried when they see one. They don't exactly ever lead to good results.

This is why I believe that Guts has unfortunately become Griffith's / IOE's "useful idiot". He sincerely believes that he is protecting and helping the woman he loves... but in reality he is only helping his hated enemy. It's actually really sad and tragic.

While some of the things hes done have certainly helped pave the way for the neo band of the hawk he as also slowed them down a fair amount. Even if you don't count his apostle hunting days he still has a fairly solid list of set backs for Griffiths plans.
  • Slowed Flora's death and got some good apostle hunting items to help him and his party out. Also saved Schierke (+1 magic user) from death at the hands of the apostles
  • Closed the Quilpoth reducing the quantity of Slan's beasties
  • Supplied SK with a few more beherits for his scary sword

I'm sure there are more but those are just easy ones off the top of my head.

Let's say that Griffith (and the child) die first. At that point Casca has no reason to continue living and if she's now an apostle Guts still has to kill her.

What? How can you be so sure that after her mind is healed her child is the only thing shes going to care about? No reason for living?? Come on man she WAS in love with guts, she DID have a great feeling of responsibility for the band of the hawk, surely she will be livid once she comes to see the truth. I think you are way to set on Casca ONLY caring about her child- she is not such a one dimensional character.
The night is dark and full of terrors.