Author Topic: At what point in the Golden Arc did Guts surpass Griffith in swordsmanship?  (Read 3261 times)

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Offline TakedaKershaw

Hi everyone this is my first post on Skullknight so I apologise if this is a bit of a nooby question. My question is at what point did Guts surpass Griffith in combat ability during the Golden Age Arc? We see in 04 BE Griffith outsmarts and out skills Guts in combat. In the second fight they have on the hill it could be argued the fight was quite close with Guts actually landing a few hits on Griffith. But then when Guts leaves The Band Of The Hawk  and duels Griffith again for his freedom it seems he beats Griffith quite easily. So when does Guts become stronger? I know this question is more speculation than anything else however I just wanted to check if I missed anything out in the manga that could have indicated Guts surpassing Griffith in combat ability.  :guts:
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Online Walter

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Re: At what point in the Golden Arc did Guts surpass Griffith in swordsmanship?
« Reply #1 on: September 28, 2016, 04:28:21 PM »
After the three years he was with the Falcons. Guts trained for battle every day, while Griffith began focusing his time and efforts elsewhere.

Quote
We see in 04 BE Griffith outsmarts and out skills Guts in combat.
What does 04 BE signify? There isn't an agreed-upon time table for Berserk's events, though I have cobbled one together for reference purposes.
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Offline ApostleBob

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Re: At what point in the Golden Arc did Guts surpass Griffith in swordsmanship?
« Reply #2 on: September 28, 2016, 05:17:27 PM »
After the three years he was with the Falcons. Guts trained for battle every day, while Griffith began focusing his time and efforts elsewhere.

Agreed. As Griffith's army grew and the Falcons gained in reputation, he had to focus more on the larger picture and strategy while Guts was getting front line experience regularly and trained so often that the other Falcons teased him about it. It was a gradual process.  Not to mention that in addition to skill improvements, Guts grew from a teenager into a man, with significant physical strength.

Offline TakedaKershaw

Re: At what point in the Golden Arc did Guts surpass Griffith in swordsmanship?
« Reply #3 on: September 29, 2016, 10:54:31 AM »
That does make sense with Griffith focusing a lot on leading his troops and trying to win the kings favour by attending balls and doing other such noble related things. it makes sense that Guts would surpass him after being in so many battles. Also thanks for the reply! I do apologise for getting the date wrong I tried to find out what the date was when Griffith fought Guts for reference and all I could find was 04BE and thanks for the timeline that is super helpful.
 
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Offline Vixen Comics

I always wondered how Guts might have fared in his little rematch with Griffith had he not been still wounded by their first encounter. But seeing how Griffith owned him in the blink of an eye, maybe him more hale may not have made a difference in that situation...God, even all that has happened I miss Guts and Griffith's old friendship...
/center]

Offline Jajimufu

I'd say he surpassed Griffith during the 100 Man Battle

Offline Arc

I always wondered how Guts might have fared in his little rematch with Griffith had he not been still wounded by their first encounter. But seeing how Griffith owned him in the blink of an eye, maybe him more hale may not have made a difference in that situation...God, even all that has happened I miss Guts and Griffith's old friendship...

Yeah i was gonna say this. Seeing how the rematch was pretty close and Guts had literally just woken up from a injury induced coma I imagined them being pretty close in skill at this time. I feel like if Guts couldn't take him at this point with full HP it certainly wouldn't have taken him long to eclipse Griffith (huehue).

-Arc
The night is dark and full of terrors.

Offline Masacrator SR

Yeah i was gonna say this. Seeing how the rematch was pretty close and Guts had literally just woken up from a injury induced coma I imagined them being pretty close in skill at this time. I feel like if Guts couldn't take him at this point with full HP it certainly wouldn't have taken him long to eclipse Griffith (huehue).

-Arc

I think Griffith was far more skillful than guts (even at full health), he was able to easily parry those heavy strikes plus submit him even while he was punching his girly face (a very disadvantage position if u ask me). 
 
But there is a limit for skill to overcome raw beastly power and we saw it 3 years later .

Offline Arc

True, I guess I was thinking of this in terms of fighting strength and not in terms of swordsmanship. Griffith definitely uses a more advanced form of swordplay with clever parry's and counter-attacks.
The night is dark and full of terrors.

Offline Aazealh

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I think Griffith was far more skillful than guts (even at full health), he was able to easily parry those heavy strikes plus submit him even while he was punching his girly face (a very disadvantage position if u ask me).
Griffith definitely uses a more advanced form of swordplay with clever parry's and counter-attacks.

Griffith was not exceptionally more skillful than Guts, even then. They use very different types of swords and so they fight differently, but the key differentiator is that Griffith is able to deflect the full brunt of Guts' strikes with a single hand (which is quite the feat of strength). Whether he could have done so as easily as he did had Guts not been wounded is actually a good question. That aside, Guts could also parry and counterattack, it's not like that's some super technical skill. His fighting style just doesn't lend itself to it as much since he uses a massive weapon.

Offline Arc

Re: At what point in the Golden Arc did Guts surpass Griffith in swordsmanship?
« Reply #10 on: December 19, 2016, 05:07:09 PM »
Griffith was not exceptionally more skillful than Guts, even then. They use very different types of swords and so they fight differently, but the key differentiator is that Griffith is able to deflect the full brunt of Guts' strikes with a single hand (which is quite the feat of strength). Whether he could have done so as easily as he did had Guts not been wounded is actually a good question. That aside, Guts could also parry and counterattack, it's not like that's some super technical skill. His fighting style just doesn't lend itself to it as much since he uses a massive weapon.

Don't get me wrong I'm not arguing Guts isn't a talented swordsman- just the fundamentals of his style have different win conditions than griffith. Griffith always seem to use an opponents attack to create an opening with a parry or similar maneuver whereas Guts style favors being the one to set the tempo using powerful attacks from his huge weapon to stagger or overwhelm his opponent.

Now obviously its no easy feat of swordsmanship to swing around a giant sword and keep up with the faster attacks of a smaller weapon and would require a great amount of skill and precision to use this style. However, Griffith's style is also very technical with precise ripostes and the ability to even parry Guts huge sword. I guess that's why it makes such a good matchup and story they are fairly even match.
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Offline Aazealh

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Re: At what point in the Golden Arc did Guts surpass Griffith in swordsmanship?
« Reply #11 on: December 19, 2016, 06:08:56 PM »
Griffith always seem to use an opponents attack to create an opening with a parry or similar maneuver

It's not as if we see enough fights starring Griffith to be able to determine what he "always" does. And as a matter of fact we see him strike first on a number of occasions. He relied on deflecting attacks when it came to Guts because Guts is very fast and his sword had a lot of reach. Plus he wasn't trying to kill him. That doesn't mean it's how he always fights. You really shouldn't extrapolate so much.

However, Griffith's style is also very technical with precise ripostes and the ability to even parry Guts huge sword. I guess that's why it makes such a good matchup and story they are fairly even match.

My point is that the ability to block a blow is not "very technical". Like I said, parrying Guts' strikes was as much if not more a feat of strength and dexterity as one of technique. That doesn't diminish how impressive it is. Griffith was a very skillful fighter either way (shown with how he struck Guts through the gap in his armor for example), but he also had strength and speed and it's the combination of all these that made him win.

I'm also not sure you can really say that Guts and Griffith were an even match. When they first meet Griffith is clearly the superior fighter, though Guts manages to catch him off guard a couple of times. Then in the course of a few years Guts progresses phenomenally and becomes unrivaled. When they fight again, he has become a better swordsman than Griffith in every possible way.

Offline Griffith

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Re: At what point in the Golden Arc did Guts surpass Griffith in swordsmanship?
« Reply #12 on: December 19, 2016, 06:41:56 PM »
I'd guess sometime between when he lost to him and before he beat him. You're welcome, everybody! :daiba:

Nah, I just wanted to chime in on Aaz's point that we really don't get a great overall view of Griffith's style because we mainly see him dueling with Guts, which is no ordinary case (credit to Griff for also cutting off Zodd's arm, even if it was a team effort). Against most others he would likely be so dominate and dispatch his opponent so quickly, see the canon fodder he cuts down, we still wouldn't have a great idea of his "style" other than, "really good." Like many others I think it would have been neat to see him and Serpico duel (though Serpico did at least compete with Guts long after the latter had surpassed human Griff); maybe Miura will settle it and do another flashback from Serpico's days defending Farnese's honor when some young punk merc gets out of line talking about his dreams 'n shit. :griffnotevil: :farnese: :serpico:

Offline The Wack Swordsman

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Re: At what point in the Golden Arc did Guts surpass Griffith in swordsmanship?
« Reply #13 on: February 19, 2017, 11:17:26 AM »
I believe it was soon after Guts joined the hawks. Not that he gained so much experience in such a short time or gained more strength but simply because we're talking about Guts here. Griffith merely surprised Guts with his actual skill and techniques. It was rare for Guts to encounter a human that could hold out against him even at that age.

One cannot deny his almost inhuman talent and reflexes during combat. He already surpassed Griffith in terms of strength, endurance and stamina. Heck! You might even say that Guts is "engineered" to be one of the strongest humans ever when seeing his performance in battle.  :void:

The only advantage Griffith had over him was his technique to counter and deflect even the hardest blows. Guts sure was shocked but he immediately analysed this technique during the battle itself and already tried thinking of a way to defeat Griffith. Guts sure is adaptable. A genius in his own way in my opinion.

I must say that the chance of him beating Griffith was rather great in case he weren't wounded. However could argue that we never saw Griffith at his best during that fight and that he was merely toying a bit and only got serious at the end. Knowing the calm and calculating Griffith I don't think he would've even started a fight with Guts unless he was sure of the odds.

This being said. Griffith knows how to spot talent.

Guts probably would've won if there was a rematch some weeks after their duel since no human can hold out in battle against the likes of Guts. The only difference is that it would take Guts a bit longer depending on the strength of his human opponent.
(Though there were humans stronger than Guts at that time like Boscogn but Griffith wasn't one of those humans... In terms of battle of course)

That being said... It doesn't take long for Guts to see and know how his opponent fights. He's very quick at learning this and he already fought Griffith so Guts would have the advantage.
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Offline serpico69

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Well... I think its intersesting to see what would have happened in their rematch if Griffith's sabre didn't snap in two in the first second. But I think the reason why Guts undoubtedly won was that while Griffith was utterly livid at that moment, Guts was unnaturally calm; Just like how in their first duel, Griffith was very calm while Guts was very angry.
I dont have any special technique names sorry

Offline Aazealh

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Well... I think its intersesting to see what would have happened in their rematch if Griffith's sabre didn't snap in two in the first second. But I think the reason why Guts undoubtedly won was that while Griffith was utterly livid at that moment, Guts was unnaturally calm; Just like how in their first duel, Griffith was very calm while Guts was very angry.

Guts won because he was a better swordsman at that point.

Offline serpico69

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Re: At what point in the Golden Arc did Guts surpass Griffith in swordsmanship?
« Reply #16 on: September 12, 2017, 05:15:48 PM »
I disagree
I dont have any special technique names sorry

Offline Menosgade

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Re: At what point in the Golden Arc did Guts surpass Griffith in swordsmanship?
« Reply #17 on: September 12, 2017, 06:17:58 PM »
I disagree

It's shown that Griffith knew what he was doing. He planned his attack, but it was useless against Guts' overwhelming strenght. You can't simply disagree Guts is better.

Offline Aazealh

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Re: At what point in the Golden Arc did Guts surpass Griffith in swordsmanship?
« Reply #18 on: September 12, 2017, 09:03:24 PM »
I disagree

Well then you're wrong. Not that I care.

Offline Griffith

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Re: At what point in the Golden Arc did Guts surpass Griffith in swordsmanship?
« Reply #19 on: September 12, 2017, 10:50:21 PM »
I truly appreciate the vote of confidence, though I had little thought to what I was doing! I certainly did not think victory was assured and only out of stubbornness and the arrogance of never having lost did I go through with it and think I could possibly beat him on the first strike. I was basically gambling my life, and his if I was successful, on a single sword stroke as Guts did against Zodd (or so he told me). Unfortunately, his strength and skill completely rendered mine moot and he not only broke my sword but had the control, strength and presence of mind to stop his before cutting me down. As you can tell from my expression at the time, I was just as surprised he could do that as anyone (as a matter of fact, I had to bathe and change my undergarments before I went to rape the princess). I understand it was ultimately an act of compassion and friendship, but that mercy only made it more humiliating for someone such as myself. Anyway, thank you for keeping the faith my friend, that is still my only loss as far as I am concerned... and as you say, mayhaps there was a defect in my sword after all... :griffnotevil:

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Offline N7Paladin

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Re: At what point in the Golden Arc did Guts surpass Griffith in swordsmanship?
« Reply #20 on: September 13, 2017, 01:51:48 AM »
I'd say Guts had surpassed Griffith by the 100-man battle, but that's just a guess. Griffith had obviously been surpassed by Guts when he was essentially one-shotted in the snow that day.   :guts:

Offline buttonmasher

Re: At what point in the Golden Arc did Guts surpass Griffith in swordsmanship?
« Reply #21 on: September 13, 2017, 03:12:15 AM »
I truly appreciate the vote of confidence, though I had little thought to what I was doing! I certainly did not think victory was assured and only out of stubbornness and the arrogance of never having lost did I go through with it and think I could possibly beat him on the first strike. I was basically gambling my life, and his if I was successful, on a single sword stroke as Guts did against Zodd (or so he told me). Unfortunately, his strength and skill completely rendered mine moot and he not only broke my sword but had the control, strength and presence of mind to stop his before cutting me down. As you can tell from my expression at the time, I was just as surprised he could do that as anyone (as a matter of fact, I had to bathe and change my undergarments before I went to rape the princess). I understand it was ultimately an act of compassion and friendship, but that mercy only made it more humiliating for someone such as myself. Anyway, thank you for keeping the faith my friend, that is still my only loss as far as I am concerned... and as you say, mayhaps there was a defect in my sword after all... :griffnotevil:

-Griffith

Can you continue to role-play all of your posts going forward?  Thanks.

Sincerely,
Everyone

Offline Griffith

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Re: At what point in the Golden Arc did Guts surpass Griffith in swordsmanship?
« Reply #22 on: September 13, 2017, 05:04:02 AM »
I think the gentleman doth flatter me. Though what do you mean by this anomalous request? [Role-play? Does he question my authenticity? Can he see right through me? Does he somehow gaze past the mask hiding the empty, insatiable void of ambition which drives me exhaustively to lie, betray, and murder my way to the top!? I must destroy this threat or become a thrall to fear...] ...Ahem, I mean, surely you jest, but of course my friend, for who else would I write these missives as other than myself? You are clearly also one of fine taste. We should meet and make merry some night at a lovely tavern I know in the old part of town. Do not mind the late hour, for you will be under my protection and I swear to see you safely to your rest.

Cheers! :griffnotevil:

-Griffith
« Last Edit: September 13, 2017, 08:42:55 AM by Griffith »

Offline buttonmasher

Re: At what point in the Golden Arc did Guts surpass Griffith in swordsmanship?
« Reply #23 on: September 14, 2017, 01:20:46 AM »
That was actually kinda terrifying.  I would hate to get that note slid under my door.  :ganishka:


Offline Cyrus Jong

Re: At what point in the Golden Arc did Guts surpass Griffith in swordsmanship?
« Reply #24 on: September 14, 2017, 02:15:21 AM »
I truly appreciate the vote of confidence, though I had little thought to what I was doing! I certainly did not think victory was assured and only out of stubbornness and the arrogance of never having lost did I go through with it and think I could possibly beat him on the first strike. I was basically gambling my life, and his if I was successful, on a single sword stroke as Guts did against Zodd (or so he told me). Unfortunately, his strength and skill completely rendered mine moot and he not only broke my sword but had the control, strength and presence of mind to stop his before cutting me down. As you can tell from my expression at the time, I was just as surprised he could do that as anyone (as a matter of fact, I had to bathe and change my undergarments before I went to rape the princess). I understand it was ultimately an act of compassion and friendship, but that mercy only made it more humiliating for someone such as myself. Anyway, thank you for keeping the faith my friend, that is still my only loss as far as I am concerned... and as you say, mayhaps there was a defect in my sword after all... :griffnotevil:

-Griffith

:ganishka: Oh, don't be so modest, Griffith. We all know the only reason Guts won that fight was because you lost. Otherwise, you would have totally won!