Author Topic: Potential way to destroy the Idea of Evil—and some musings about the Eschaton  (Read 5515 times)

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Offline Jajimufu

I also agree with your statement that Slan is interested more with Guts' mind, emotions, psychology, etc than the physical side of Guts like his looks, body, physical feats, etc

Offline Walter

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That quote from slan is the sole reason why I started this whole conversation about Guts using a beherit

And it's something that is very often discussed. Here's something I wrote about it recently:

I don't think the series has ruled out a sacrifice using a Beherit. It's just unlikely to happen in the story, and wouldn't make a terrible amount of sense. For years I thought it strictly wasn't possible, because of Conrad's words in Vol 3. But then I noticed something about when God Hand talk are talking about Beherits and being ordained by causality.

I think what Conrad said had less to do with Guts being a sacrifice, and more to do with his relationship with the Beherit. Conrad said Guts wasn't "ordained" to be among them as an apostle during the Count's ceremony. But shortly afterwards, Guts ends up with a Beherit, which he's carried around ever since. Now, let's recall Ubik's words to Griffith in Volume 12: "From the moment you took possession of that crimson Beherit, you had the qualities to become a demon ... No, perhaps I should say that because you had those qualities, it fell into your hands."

Though these two dialogues are separated by almost 10 volumes worth of material, the thrust of this argument is reinforced by the repeated urgings from Slan (Vol 3, 26) and the specters (Vol 16), for Guts to use it. That could all be merely dramatic tension or a true threat. But if he ever took the offer, it would be a dead-end in terms of the story.

Let's apply that potential outcome to the two most obvious scenarios:

Guts takes the deal, however unlikely that sounds. This effectively ends the series. Guts is no longer a human, and the God Hand have influence over him, just like what happened when Ganishka faced Griffith in Vritannis. Thus, the conflict at the heart of the series would come to a swift and unsatisfying end.

Casca takes the deal. There'd be no saving her from that. Whether he can bring himself to kill her or not, Guts would be demoralized, and his consistent savior to relinquish the Beast's hold on him would be gone.

So... yeah, it's not something I like spending too much time debating. I'm a pragmatic guy, and hypotheticals aren't really my thing. Instead, as we've said here for years, I can't help but think that Miura has bigger plans for it than merely another apostle ceremony.

The God Hand would presumably have less power over controlling the causal web of existence after the Blast. Material reality is the most objective layer of existence in which substance denies desire—you can stare at a door all day willing it to open but it won't budge. But the higher you go on the layers the more substance conforms to desire and the less objective reality is. So the God Hand would be more powerful in a micro sense, but they would be less powerful in a macro sense by having less power over all causality.

That may have made some sense before the Blast. But after? We don't know the current makeup of the world. It's a huge variable. Besides, "controlling the causal web of existence" is not exactly what the God Hand do. We've seen them in action behind the scenes. They pull the strings on various large-scale world events (Conrad and the plague, Slan in the presence of the cultists, Femto likely responsible for the mass dream). The deeper level manipulations that I think you are referring to are part of the Idea of Evil's purview.
:femto: :slan: :ubik:

Offline The Warrior-Prophet

Sorry Walter, I'm not a mindreader—though that would be nice—and there is plenty of semantic content in what anyone communicates. Not sure specifically what 'that' you're referring to. Could you explicate a little bit more?

It's my own fault but I suppose I view the God Hand and Idea of Evil as metonymies of one another. In that, whatever actions the God Hand take are indistinguishable from what the Idea of Evil wills, and whatever the Idea of Evil wills is indistinguishable from what the God Hand enacts, because that is their nature. But I'll try to be more specific in the future.

Offline Walter

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Sorry Walter, I'm not a mindreader—though that would be nice—and there is plenty of semantic content in what anyone communicates. Not sure specifically what 'that' you're referring to. Could you explicate a little bit more?

I was referring to the entire plan that you had offered ("The God Hand would presumably have less power over controlling the causal web of existence after the Blast"). You are relying on consistent rules between the astral and physical worlds -- rules that might not exist anymore, after the Blast. We don't know how the astral world works anymore.

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I view the God Hand and Idea of Evil as metonymies of one another...
whatever actions the God Hand take are indistinguishable from what the Idea of Evil wills, and whatever the Idea of Evil wills is indistinguishable from what the God Hand enacts

Well honestly we're both out of our depth if we're trying to pin down precisely what happens behind the scenes. That being said, the God Hand and the IoE certainly aren't on the same level, and taking Ep 83 into account, we know that they execute on completely different levels. To use your language, it's micro versus macro manipulation. The God Hand may be able to perform mass actions like the ones I described previously, but they aren't as deeply rooted in every human like the Idea of Evil is. It has manipulated bloodlines over centuries. By comparison, Conrad pushes rats around, Ubik can peer through time, and Slan bolsters passions. In the grand scheme, they're the janitors of Causality.

I also think it's a mistake to think of Causality as something that's changed on the fly. It's a massively complicated series of interconnected relationships set in motion more than a millennium ago. All human life has been preconditioned to lean in the direction of Causality's flow. That doesn't mean the IoE needs to actively yank the individual strings for each puppet.
:femto: :slan: :ubik:

Offline Jajimufu

Walter I totally understand where you're coming from, but you just brought up something interesting.
What if Guts uses a crimson/ regular beherit to gain power to hopefully defeat Grififth. Of course that would mean that the Godhand would have supreme power over Guts, yes?
Guts was also supposed to die in the eclipse right? If not he would have surely been dead by all of the hungry demons that chase him relentlessly through the night.
It's also a miracle that Guts lived through his first time in the Berserker Armor, who knows how many pounds of blood he lost from that experience, surely no normal man could accomplish a feat such as that.
Berserk is a story of struggle and perseverance no matter what lays ahead of you. It would not surprise me at all if Guts fights and struggles (what Guts have been doing through the entire story) through their immense control and gain his own freedom. Then of course from there it's an uphill, losing battle that Guts has to fight to defeat all 5 of the Godhand, but isn't that what he's been doing all along?

Offline Walter

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What if Guts uses a crimson/ regular beherit to gain power to hopefully defeat Grififth.

Sacrificing Casca in the process? Is that really the road you think Guts will take? To gain a negligible amount of power? Guts is already extremely powerful, able to face Zodd as a human, and challenge Grunbeld as an apostle. I don't foresee him becoming much more powerful, myself.

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It's also a miracle that Guts lived through his first time in the Berserker Armor, who knows how many pounds of blood he lost from that experience, surely no normal man could accomplish a feat such as that.

Blood isn't measured in pounds. And his survival is because of Schierke's intervention, not a supernatural volume of blood flowing within him.

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Then of course from there it's an uphill, losing battle that Guts has to fight to defeat all 5 of the Godhand, but isn't that what he's been doing all along?

Nothing says that Guts will have to defeat all 5 God Hand members by himself.
:femto: :slan: :ubik:

Offline Jajimufu

I totally didn't notice I measured blood in lbs lmao I meant liters.
Okay let me counter your points here
You never know what sort of circumstances Guts and Casca is gonna be in. Maybe she wants Guts to sacrifice her to beat the living fuck outta Griffith for all of the evil he has commited. You're right about Guts already having immense power as it is, but after he gets a power boost from a Beherit who knows what kind of havoc and carnage he may be capable of.
And I never said Guts had a supernatural supply of blood. What I was saying is something to support my original statement that Guts can break free of the control of the Godhand IF he were ever to be in that kind of situation. Listen if Guts can persevere through having his bones crushed and most of his blood supply ran dry and then kill a giant dragon whose skin is "harder to break through than diamond" then he can surely take on the Godhand by himself.

Offline Walter

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You never know what sort of circumstances Guts and Casca is gonna be in. Maybe she wants Guts to sacrifice her to beat the living fuck outta Griffith for all of the evil he has commited. You're right about Guts already having immense power as it is, but after he gets a power boost from a Beherit who knows what kind of havoc and carnage he may be capable of.

You keep saying "you never know," but boy you are really insisting on this one distant outcome. In your version of things, he would gain power as an apostle but still contend with the natural disadvantage he'll have against the God Hand. And somehow that ends up being a net plus? Even then, he'd still have to deal with Femto's abilities, and we saw how that opposition worked in Volume 3. Femto just toyed with him. So you've given him one additional existential hurdle in his eventual fight with Femto, but he'd be "stronger."

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And I never said Guts had a supernatural supply of blood. What I was saying is something to support my original statement that Guts can break free of the control of the Godhand

It's not a matter of "control." The mere presence of Griffith was enough to bring Ganishka to his knees.  Ganishka physically couldn't oppose Griffith until he twice-transformed (and even then...). But you're saying that Guts is a real tough guy, and that wouldn't matter.

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Listen if Guts can persevere through having his bones crushed and most of his blood supply ran dry and then kill a giant dragon whose skin is "harder to break through than diamond" then he can surely take on the Godhand by himself.

Come on... I'm not denying Guts is an incredible guy, but you're misrepresenting things.

He had a few broken bones, but the armor drastically dulls his sense of pain. We don't know exactly how much blood he lost (this is a bizarre thing to continually bring up, btw), and I'll reiterate that had the fight continued, he very likely would have bled out, and Schierke indeed was the one who brought him back to his senses, saving his life. Finally, he didn't kill Grunbeld. Their fight ended when Flora intervened.

And yes, I do think Guts will eventually take on Femto himself. That's a given. But I certainly don't think he has to abandon his humanity, the series' message, and everything he stands for in order to do so.
:femto: :slan: :ubik:

Offline Jajimufu

I'll try to keep it short and sweet this time.
Am I right or am I wrong about everyone not knowing what kind of situation Miura gonna think up, so Idek why you brought that up.
My end point is this:
Even if Guts became a demon/ apostle through the Beherit I honestly wouldn't be surprised if he said "Fuck you I'm still a human" so it's basically just a power boost for Guts to lessen the gap between him and Griffith.
And plus Guts went through A LOT more shit than volume 3 bro

Offline jackson_hurley

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And yes, I do think Guts will eventually take on Femto himself. That's a given. But I certainly don't think he has to abandon his humanity, the series' message, and everything he stands for in order to do so.

It's all about the barites, I'm sure they'll be usefull in the end. I hope we get more info on them.

Offline Walter

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Am I right or am I wrong about everyone not knowing what kind of situation Miura gonna think up, so Idek why you brought that up.

I brought it up because I've provided about 4 good reasons why your outcome is extremely unlikely, but now all you're doing is laying your case on the basis of "YA NEVER KNOW, BRO."

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Even if Guts became a demon/ apostle through the Beherit I honestly wouldn't be surprised if he said "Fuck you I'm still a human" so it's basically just a power boost for Guts to lessen the gap between him and Griffith.

So he'd be an apostle in denial? Sounds really solid, bro.

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And plus Guts went through A LOT more shit than volume 3 bro

Well bro, I was specifically referring to the last time he and Femto faced off, and how he casually tossed Guts aside with his abilities.

It's all about the barites, I'm sure they'll be usefull in the end. I hope we get more info on them.

That's ... a little thin.
:femto: :slan: :ubik:

Offline Jajimufu

This whole category is based off "ya never know bro" that's why it's called speculation.
I'm pretty confident I've laid out a pretty possible outcome/ way Guts could beat the Gohand singlehandedly

Offline jackson_hurley

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That's ... a little thin.

I know. But I'm not good at developping theories that much (you guys do it better anyway so reading yours is good enough for me). Besides I prefer to be surprised by the releases, I'm busy enough with my own project to develop. I'm still want know more.   :guts:

Offline Aazealh

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This whole category is based off "ya never know bro" that's why it's called speculation.

No, it's called speculation because it's about envisioning future developments. But that doesn't mean you can ignore the story so far, its constraints, and what makes sense going forward based on what we know of the characters.

I'm pretty confident I've laid out a pretty possible outcome/ way Guts could beat the Gohand singlehandedly

Your confidence only shows how weak your understanding of the series is. There is zero chance that what you proposed will happen.

Offline Sancho

Even if Guts became a demon/ apostle through the Beherit I honestly wouldn't be surprised if he said "Fuck you I'm still a human" so it's basically just a power boost for Guts to lessen the gap between him and Griffith.

I remember Conrad stating to the Count in vol 3 that in the process of becoming an apostle "a fracture will open in your heart into which evil will surge". And when Griffith became Femto the IoE said that the evil power comes from the negative thoughts of that inner world (the vortex). Thus, i think that when a human becomes an apostle or in general receive "evil power", his mind must become necessarly corrupted, there is no escape from that.

Offline Jajimufu

I don't think I'm ignoring and don't understand the story.
I'm not saying that Guts would use a Beherit to gain power, all I'm trying to say here is that he could do it and still be himself and not be evil.
I am VERY aware how unlikely it is for Guts to do this, it was just something I thought was interesting after rereading what Slan said to Guts

Offline Walter

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I don't think I'm ignoring and don't understand the story.
...
I'm not saying that Guts would use a Beherit to gain power, all I'm trying to say here is that he could do it and still be himself and not be evil.

Bro, what you're proposing demonstrates that you don't have a firm grasp on how things work. Apostles are imbued with evil — their souls corrupted by the Vortex. Apostles aren't just really buff misunderstood people. They represent everything Guts stands against -- independent of the grudge he has against them. His power is his own. You're saying he should use evil power manifested from dooming loved ones to eternal damnation in order to bulk up. Does that sound like Guts to you...?

:femto: :slan: :ubik:

Offline Jajimufu

You're acting like I'm supporting the argument of Guts using the beherit, all I'm saying is don't say that "Guts is never gonna use a Beherit bc that's against his morals" because there's a possibility that he just might. You guys are acting like it's impossible for Guts to do that. Imo it would be better for Guts to stay human and just go berserk and then beat the Godhand that way; but I'm also open to the fact that some crazy shit that could surpass the eclipse could happen, change Guts' view on everything and make him resort to doing that; even though that would be against the central message of the story it's still possible

Offline Walter

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You guys are acting like it's impossible for Guts to do that.

Bro, I outlined how it MAY be possible in a massive post. Then I laid out the reasons it's not only impractical for the story, but against the message of the series and Guts' character.

Are we done here?
:femto: :slan: :ubik:

Offline Aazealh

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all I'm saying is don't say that "Guts is never gonna use a Beherit bc that's against his morals" because there's a possibility that he just might.

Guts will never use a beherit to become an apostle. This is no more a possibility than Rickert building a rocket and Guts using it to go to the moon. This whole conservation you guys have been having is a complete waste of time.

Offline Jajimufu

Hey I ain't tryna start an argument with y'all just wanted to hear your guys thoughts on it. In my original post I also stated that guts could find a way to cut off their power so they would just be like any average being. Your thoughts on that?

Offline Aazealh

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In my original post I also stated that guts could find a way to cut off their power so they would just be like any average being. Your thoughts on that?

Members of the God Hand are transformed through a ceremony. It's not like they have a specific, continuously running power source that you can cut off and then they lose their strength. As far as we know, once they get the power, they keep it. That being said, there might be ways for them to be weakened (and then killed). We just don't know what that might be yet. It's quite possible we'll get some clues while the group is in Elfhelm though. The exception to this is Griffith. The boy (Guts & Casca's son) whose body he stole is almost guaranteed to be the key to his downfall.

Offline Walter

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Hey I ain't tryna start an argument with y'all just wanted to hear your guys thoughts on it. In my original post I also stated that guts could find a way to cut off their power so they would just be like any average being. Your thoughts on that?

There are of course many possibilities. But once again you aren't really considering how such a notion would be executed. If the God Hand are reduced to average people ... that would nix any potential for a satisfying confrontation. Ubik on the ground, flapping his little hands, unable to float anymore, while Guts walks over and just stabs him.
:femto: :slan: :ubik:

Offline Jajimufu

If you guys want my honest to God opinion of what I think should happen/ want to happen its this:
To preserve the message of Guts keeping his humanity and not bow down to the temptations of the Beherit (which could happen but would be a load of horseshit with how the story is set up), he should just have a 5v1 battle with the Godhand with the berserker armor and any other thing Miura might give Guts to help him out. Like its his battle alone he shouldn't have anyone else helping him out. But I honestly think it's just gonna come down to Guts' rage being too much for them to handle (which is saying a lot after volume 3). He's gonna dig deep down inside and just let the Black Dog bowl and go berserk to beat the Godhand. I think it's how Guts should beat them after all the shit he went through.

Offline Aazealh

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To preserve the message of Guts keeping his humanity and not bow down to the temptations of the Beherit (which could happen but would be a load of horseshit with how the story is set up)

You know, even aside from everything else that makes it impossible, this would be the lamest thing ever. A travesty in every way.

he should just have a 5v1 battle with the Godhand with the berserker armor and any other thing Miura might give Guts to help him out. Like its his battle alone he shouldn't have anyone else helping him out. But I honestly think it's just gonna come down to Guts' rage being too much for them to handle (which is saying a lot after volume 3).

This is quite possibly the least likely scenario I've ever heard of. Members of the God Hand are masters of humanity's dark side. Rage is delectable to them. It's never going to be too much for them to handle. Beyond that, one member of the God Hand is already so powerful that everything Guts and his allies have got could not make a difference without a trump card, a way to greatly weaken him or her. To think Guts could, should or will take them on all at once is laughable, plain and simple. I can understand that it's your wet dream to see him triumph like that, but it's just not going to happen. If it were, it would have been done in volume 3. Victory against the God Hand will be complicated and require a lot of help, that's why we're up to volume 39 of the series.

the Black Dog

It's called the Beast of Darkness.