Author Topic: Star Wars: The Last Jedi  (Read 6183 times)

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Offline IncantatioN

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
« Reply #25 on: April 14, 2017, 03:36:11 PM »
Neat poster.

Teaser
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zB4I68XVPzQ
Watched it on mute cos I'm at work but it looks decent. There's some drama, action, explosions, running, BB, sabers. When it finished, I though to myself "Ok, I'm gonna have to watch the first one again before diving into this one ..." but the next moment, I figured I didn't have to. Episode VII didn't click with me to the extent that I feel the need to watch it a third time. I watched it again this past December after a year of it's release and it felt flat.

The video is over 2 mins long, why call it a teaser?!
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Offline Grail

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
« Reply #26 on: April 14, 2017, 03:48:02 PM »
Cool poster. The lightsaber glow tapering from blue to red, how foreboding! :rakshas:

Offline Johnstantine

Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
« Reply #27 on: April 14, 2017, 03:50:40 PM »
The video is over 2 mins long, why call it a teaser?!

For die-hard fans such as myself, anything less than the movie proper is a teaser.

Offline IncantatioN

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
« Reply #28 on: April 14, 2017, 04:11:21 PM »
For die-hard fans such as myself, anything less than the movie proper is a teaser.
Ahahaha, cool beans! I think this'll be the last video I watch before actually watching the film cos I don't want to get spoiled.
At the end of time, a moment will come when just one man remains. Then the moment will pass. Man will be gone. There will be nothing to show that we were ever here... but stardust.

Offline Walter

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
« Reply #29 on: April 14, 2017, 05:21:21 PM »
It looks alright. Nothing blowing me away yet, but the final line is intriguing.
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Offline Griffith

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
« Reply #30 on: April 14, 2017, 08:13:59 PM »
It was fine, a bit restrained like the final release trailer for the last one which is ok by me, but I wish the first words I heard Luke Skywalker speak in over 30 years weren't generic fodder for a teaser trailer. In retrospect another reason to give him a proper reintroduction in the last movie after playing his appearance so close to the vest, "Thank God we saved him for this... trailer?"

Anyway, he seems to be in a real dark place, but maybe he changes his tune early since he's likely training Rey, Kylo looks cooler (long hair and a perfect non-disfiguring accent scar! =) and I'm intrigued by the mask mayhem (any doubt he dresses exactly like Vader by Ep 9, if not literally becoming him), and I wonder how involved Finn is going to be in his condition, unless this is mostly material from the first act.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2017, 09:41:38 PM by Griffith »

Offline Johnstantine

Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
« Reply #31 on: April 14, 2017, 09:41:47 PM »
It was fine, a bit restrained like the final release trailer for the last one which is ok by me, but I wish the first words I heard Luke Skywalker speak in over 30 years wasn't generic fodder for a teaser trailer. In retrospect another reason to give him a proper reintroduction in the last movie after playing his appearance so close to the vest, "Thank God we saved him for this... trailer?"

Anyway, he seems to be in a real dark place, but maybe changes his tune early since he's likely training Rey, Kylo looks cooler and I'm intrigued by the mask, and I wonder how involved Finn is going to be in his condition, unless this is mostly material from the first act.

Probably going end of Dark Empire on us, which I'm okay with.

I've seen enough, so I'll be avoiding future trailers. Same with the new Thor.

Offline Skeleton

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
« Reply #32 on: April 14, 2017, 10:20:41 PM »
The trailer's a bit underwhelming, but I think that's just because I'm so hyped up for this movie.  Other than that, so far so good.

Offline Sareth

Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
« Reply #33 on: April 15, 2017, 11:06:17 AM »
Watched the teaser and felt nothing. The Force Awakens really killed all excitement I had for the new trilogy. :sad:

Offline Griffith

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
« Reply #34 on: April 15, 2017, 02:33:37 PM »
The Force Awakens really killed all excitement I had for the new trilogy. :sad:

Whether it's fair or not, I've seen a lot of this sentiment in reaction to the trailer, and it didn't seem nearly so prevalent a year ago, even among TFA's detractors. I don't really know what people are complaining about though, because the overall gist seems to be, "where's the original greatness to match the classics!?" I too was also looking for Empire Part II when I watched TFA and came away extremely disappointed that it indeed wasn't as good as Empire had no business being. But in hindsight I appreciated the way it revived the franchise by honoring the the past while paving the way for a future and making Star Wars relevant again. I think the biggest single complaint was that while continuing the old story and beginning a new one it also contained a, at least spiritual, remake of the original Star Wars with elements of Empire, Jedi and the EU mixed within (it even paid off Han Solo as RoTJ should have), which isn't such an ignoble effort in my book (George tried to give us something really different! =). Anybody looking for something original should probably stop looking to Star Wars for it, but I do hope this one doesn't get too wrapped up in the meaning of the Farce (and did they mention the "balance" of it :magni:). Anyway, the honeymoon with the fans seems to be over; this one better really be as good as Empire! :ganishka:

Offline Walter

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
« Reply #35 on: April 15, 2017, 05:26:15 PM »
I didn't think TFA was a bad movie, but it lacked ambition. The hesitancy in the team to go out on their own was palpable. I reserve hope that this new movie goes in an exciting new direction for the series. But then again, Disney, right?
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Offline Sancho

Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
« Reply #36 on: April 15, 2017, 08:03:23 PM »
Anyway, the honeymoon with the fans seems to be over; this one better really be as good as Empire! :ganishka:

After TFA it would be a real miracle if it'll even manage to be as good as any one of the original trilogy.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2017, 08:13:32 PM by Sancho »

Offline Skeleton

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
« Reply #37 on: April 15, 2017, 09:48:49 PM »
After TFA it would be a real miracle if it'll even manage to be as good as any one of the original trilogy.

TFA and RotJ are neck-and-neck when it comes to SW quality so as long as TLJ is even slightly better than TFA it'll be better than RotJ. And keep in mind that Rian Johnson, the guy who directed Breaking Bad's Ozymandias and wrote/directed the film Looper, is the captain of this ship. I'll sincerely be surprised if it ends up being worse than TFA.

Anyway, here's a short article where Rian explains/clarifies the meaning behind the "The Last Jedi" name.

Offline Sancho

Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
« Reply #38 on: April 15, 2017, 10:59:01 PM »
TFA and RotJ are neck-and-neck when it comes to SW quality so as long as TLJ is even slightly better than TFA it'll be better than RotJ. And keep in mind that Rian Johnson, the guy who directed Breaking Bad's Ozymandias and wrote/directed the film Looper, is the captain of this ship. I'll sincerely be surprised if it ends up being worse than TFA.

RotJ was an ending that didn't completely meet the expectations born from ESB, but it was nevertheless a worth ending for the trilogy. Scenes like Vader's redemption or every other scene with the Emperor are simply unforgettable. Even if i were to concede that my dislike for TFA is something subjective, i can't just ignore the fact that it didn't contain any scene of the same caliber, that it was basically a remake of episode IV, masked as a sequel, and yet put it at the same level of RotJ.


Quote
Anyway, here's a short article where Rian explains/clarifies the meaning behind the "The Last Jedi" name.

In italian the name of the movie has been translated in plural as "Gli ultimi Jedi"= The Last Jedis, but it seems they went ahead and translated it without even consulting the director first :schierke:
« Last Edit: April 15, 2017, 11:15:33 PM by Sancho »

Offline Griffith

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
« Reply #39 on: April 16, 2017, 12:01:54 AM »
I didn't think TFA was a bad movie

See, it's this hesitant, restrained or faint praise that's even more interesting, because there's a pretty compelling case it's an objectively good and entertaining as hell movie that pulls off the miracle of introducing new characters likable enough that old fans will tolerate the torch being passed on, and then does it. Everyone seems to take this and the high quality entertainment value provided for granted for some reason when Star Wars fans should really know better.

but it lacked ambition. The hesitancy in the team to go out on their own was palpable.

Really, revitalizing Star Wars wasn't ambitious enough an undertaking? I mean, this wasn't just supposed to be a continuation and/or new story, it was a largely new enterprise that had to have an impact almost equivalent to original Star Wars. This is all relative, but it strikes me as sort like needing to hit a home run, calling your shot, actually hitting the home run, and then getting scrutinized by a certain segment of fans sitting cross-armed and saying things like, "Well, it wasn't a bad home run, but it wasn't a grand slam or anything, and I'd have preferred the gritty excitement of an in-the-park home run." Maybe they were just more into Baseball as kids. =) We actually have the luxury of doing this precisely because they were so successful in this endeavor; you don't hear anybody complaining that the prequels main character was "too capable" and the movie TOO MUCH like Star Wars. If these are the big knocks on TFA, it's too much like Star Wars, I'd say they've been pretty successful in their ambitions to resurrect Star Wars. Anyway, I don't think they could have made a new movie on the level of Empire out of the gate with a brand new cast of characters. That would have likely just been a failure that either failed if the story wasn't good enough, or maybe even if it was, perhaps too new and different to be recognizably Star Wars. I don't know, but we'd have thought of something. =)

I reserve hope that this new movie goes in an exciting new direction for the series. But then again, Disney, right?

Is there a specific good direction? Is there another film, or series of films doing something on this scale comparably better we can look to? I wouldn't doubt it, but I just want to know where the goal posts are, because all these hopes and disappointments seem very vague. We'll we just know it when we see it? Here's hoping Last Jedi is it.

After TFA it would be a real miracle if it'll even manage to be as good as any one of the original trilogy.

Isn't that the case because those are among the best films or series of films ever made, literally the favorite of millions of people? I mean, if they could just DO THAT those films wouldn't be so special, so I don't think it's fair to say the next film needs to be like the best one to even rate. Even their creator couldn't recapture the magic or even come close, quite the contrary as we all know. We shouldn't be holding all these movies to the standard of, "Is this as good as if they'd made another Star Wars movie in 1987?" Let alone to the original Star Wars or Empire; you can't just manufacture a transcendent classic after all, you can only try to make something good and hope for the best. Of course, we shouldn't find them all good just for being better than the prequels either, but it seems like we're ignoring a lot of the objective qualities of these new movies to declare them good or bad based on X as it relates to previous Star Wars media.

TFA and RotJ are neck-and-neck when it comes to SW quality so as long as TLJ is even slightly better than TFA it'll be better than RotJ. And keep in mind that Rian Johnson, the guy who directed Breaking Bad's Ozymandias and wrote/directed the film Looper, is the captain of this ship. I'll sincerely be surprised if it ends up being worse than TFA.

I wouldn't be, not because I don't have faith in Rian Johnson, but because it does seem like a more singular vision, which has tremendous positive and negative potential. His great Star Wars movie may not be any of ours. The last one was admittedly trying to be all things to all people, but did a yeomen-like job of it. I don't necessarily agree that TFA is up there with RotJ in quality, but I do think they share similar quality and objectives as bookends. They may not be transcendent like Star Wars and Empire, but they're objectively at the top of the food chain as far as this genre goes. Jedi also definitely benefits from having the original cast's last hurrah together, with one notable exception: TFA's Han Solo beats Jedi's in a landslide.

Anyway, here's a short article where Rian explains/clarifies the meaning behind the "The Last Jedi" name.

Interesting, certainly meshes with the tone and themes of the trailer. Kylo Ren isn't exactly a Sith either, thankfully, and let's not forget that Luke was "no Jedi" for the best parts of the series.

RotJ was an ending that didn't completely meet the expectations born from ESB, but it was nevertheless a worth ending for the trilogy. Scenes like Vader's redemption or every other scene with the Emperor are simply unforgettable. Even if i were to concede that my dislike for TFA is something subjective, i can't just ignore the fact that it didn't contain any scene of the same caliber, that it was basically a remake of episode IV, masked as a sequel, and yet put it at the same level of RotJ.

See, I think it's more a reboot masked as a sequel with a remake cleverly running throughout, and that's an important distinction. The reason TFA gets trashed for it's "plot just being a remake of Star Wars" is the Starkiller Base, but that's like twenty minutes of the movie out of two hours and twenty. The rest of it, and what actually drives it, is the characters meeting, growing, and solidifying their relationships in the backdrop of this eternal good vs evil conflict; so you still have a good two hour adventure movie with fresh, likable, and compelling characters and therefore action without any of that.  As a matter of fact, you could actually cut out all the Starkiller stuff and basically have the exact same movie minus the planets blowing up and that perfunctory Death Star run and everything else would be the same and fine (and more different than this trick might otherwise make you believe). They'd all still be ostensibly looking for Luke, Finn would still escape the First Order, he'd still meet Rey, they'd still flee and meet Han Solo, they'd still meet up with the Resistance, they'd still go rescue Rey, and Rey would still fight Kylo Ren and go find Luke. That's your original movie, folks, and almost none of it was actually about Starkiller Base, for better or worse. Actually, look at all that Skywalker searching, First Order fleeing, friend rescuing and lightsaber dueling a different way and it seems a lot more like a certain Star Wars sequel than the original film. They just threw in a Star Warsy Death Star subplot as the cherry on top, just like RotJ, the plot of which was actually far more Death Star driven but was really about the culmination of everything just as this was really about a new beginning with these characters; so, lay that complaint to rest and enjoy it! :iva:

In italian the name of the movie has been translated in plural as "Gli ultimi Jedi"= The Last Jedis, but it seems they went ahead and translated it without even consulting the director first :schierke:

What do you care? It's going to be so bad anyway. :carcus:
« Last Edit: April 16, 2017, 01:52:31 AM by Griffith »

Offline Skeleton

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
« Reply #40 on: April 16, 2017, 01:51:13 AM »
I wouldn't be, not because I don't have faith in Rian Johnson, but because it does seem like a more singular vision, which has tremendous positive and negative potential. His great Star Wars movie may not be any of ours. The last one was admittedly trying to be all things to all people, but did a yeomen-like job of it.

That's a great point.  I didn't look at it from that angle.  But I choose to have hope.  It's what rebellions are built on, after all.  :carcus:

I don't necessarily agree that TFA is up there with RotJ in quality, but I do think they share similar quality and objectives as bookends. They may not be transcendent like Star Wars and Empire, but they're objectively at the top of the food chain as far as this genre goes. Jedi also definitely benefits from having the original cast's last hurrah together, with one notable exception: TFA's Han Solo beats Jedi's in a landslide.

By SW quality, I mean specifically their quality as Star Wars movies (continuing the SW story or fleshing it out) as opposed to their quality if you look at them as films independent of their overall story/universe.  For example, I think the quality of RotJ as a film is high.  But I think Lucas really took a big steaming dump all over the story that Empire Strikes Back had set up.  TFA had solid quality as a film, but the quality wasn't as good as ROTJ.  However, even though they sometimes danced pretty close to the line with regards to the Force powers, TFA did a far better job at continuing the story, and respecting the set rules of the previous films in its universe, than RotJ.

To me, the two films have two completely different sets of pros and nearly completely different sets of cons.  But if you lined up their pros and cons and compared them they'd be equal to the point that you could make a case for each one being better than the other, and you'd be right in both cases.  Hell, both films even left me wondering the same question ("How the hell did Luke/Rey get his/her lightsaber?"), and they both gave me the exact same answer ("Well, we actually filmed a scene that showed specifically how he/she got it, but we ended up leaving it on the cutting room floor.")

In other words, if I had to rank the films it'd be:

1.  Empire Strikes Back
2.  Star Wars
T3.  Return of the Jedi
T3.  The Force Awakens
5. Star Wars Holiday Special

Offline Walter

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
« Reply #41 on: April 16, 2017, 02:09:03 AM »
See, it's this hesitant, restrained or faint praise that's even more interesting, because there's a pretty compelling case it's an objectively good and entertaining as hell movie that pulls off the miracle of introducing new characters likable enough that old fans will tolerate the torch being passed on, and then does it. Everyone seems to take this and the high quality entertainment value provided for granted for some reason when Star Wars fans should really know better.

Hang on, I'm being picked on for not liking The Force Awakens enough? :ganishka: Is that so objectionable? It's in line with how you weighed in after the premiere:

Ironically, I feel like they needed to let go of trying to be STAR WARS so much while reinventing it, to the point that the Star Warsy plot felt merely shoved on top the more organic stories of these characters and their potential is never reached because of it (I mean the plot's potential too, which contains what should be some universe shaking events but it's all covered almost as an obligatory aside, because it is).
I just don't think it's good enough on its own merits. It has potential, and if it had focused more on it's new characters in an original plot about the search for Skywalker or something it may have indeed achieved that.

Are things so different now? I mean ... I seem to remember that all three of us (Aaz, me and you) were pretty much on the same page about our reception of The Force Awakens back when we talked about it on the podcast. It was fun! And it felt hollow... The classic Enerton Machine effect of recent Disney films.

The surprise of it being NOT a complete shit show, and ticking the marks on all the ingredients for a successful action/scifi does not alone excite me. That's because The Force Awakens was built on a rigorous scaffolding of A New Hope.  I imagine that was intended to elicit a sense of resonance with fans, but ultimately came across as tracing on top of another success. Once I realized that was the direction of things, it was hard for me to really get into the movie, because only in small moments did it really feel like it was going out on its own.

Quote
Really, revitalizing Star Wars wasn't ambitious enough an undertaking?

No, not really. That was a decision made in a board room. Disney's machinery doesn't require much soul to drive its engines and get people into theaters these days. Pure, calculated competency will do the trick most of the time, which is how I'd categorize the recent Marvel movies HUGE SUCCESSES and yet somehow I couldn't give two shits about them.

What impressed me about TFA was that in a few instances, it did succeed in lightly tiptoeing out of the shadow of its legacy AND the homogeneous men in suits cracking the whip on J.J. Abrams back. But it still wasn't quite enough for me to cheer. Enjoyable? Certainly! CLASSIC FILM? No, and I think it's a mistake (albeit inevitable) to judge it by those standards at this point. What will the legacy of this new trilogy be? That's up to Disney and its franchise machine.

Quote
If these are the big knocks on TFA, it's too much like Star Wars, I'd say they've been pretty successful in their ambitions to resurrect Star Wars. Anyway, I don't think they could have to made a movie on the level of Empire out of the gate with a brand new cast of characters. That would have likely just been a failure.

I didn't, and don't expect them to trump Empire either. And I'm okay with that. I just want them to tell a great story with great characters. So far we've got one of the two elements.

Quote
Is there a specific good direction? Is there another film, or series of films doing something on this scale comparably better we can look to? I'm sure there is, but I just want to know where the goal posts are, because all these hopes and disappointments seem very vague. We'll we just know it when we see it? Here's hoping Last Jedi is it.

You make it sound as though I'm some kind of inferno of passion either for or against Star Wars. I ain't. As with most things, I just want to see the story go into exciting, surprising places, and do some new, interesting shit. So yeah, pretty vague I guess.

Quote
I wouldn't be, not because I don't have faith in Rian Johnson, but because it does seem like a more singular vision, which has tremendous positive and negative potential. His great Star Wars movie may not be any of ours.

What's funny about Rian Johnson is that more than a decade ago, I was immediately taken by the guy before I even saw his movies. If you've heard or read him talk about films, he's fascinating, has some big ideas. But both Brick and Looper seemed terminally ill-conceived. I wanted to like those movies, but Christ, they were both so juvenile it was tough to stomach. That being said, I still harbor a small flame for the guy, and genuinely hope that he has the vision to make this new movie really GO PLACES.

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The reason it gets trashed for it's "plot just being a remake of Star Wars" is the Starkiller Base, but that's like twenty minutes of the movie out of two hours and twenty.

The parallels are more substantial than just Starkiller Base. Did I somehow miss your point here? I don't think you're blind to all the New Hope parallels.
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Offline Griffith

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
« Reply #42 on: April 16, 2017, 04:07:24 AM »
Hang on, I'm being picked on for not liking The Force Awakens enough? :ganishka:

:ganishka:

It is pretty funny when you put it that way, especially since I myself am not exactly endorsing it as an all time great, but I don't mean to pick either. For the record, I think your position and enthusiasm, or lack thereof is reasonable, but I'm genuinely curious about the reticence to fully embrace it, incuding my own, to the point I think even its good points, including some of its more novel and elegant ideas, have become under-appreciated.

What I think is ridiculous are those breathlessly decrying it like it's objectively terrible or somehow the worst thing to happen to Star Wars.

Is that so objectionable? It's in line with how you weighed in after the premiere:

Are things so different now? I mean ... I seem to remember that all three of us (Aaz, me and you) were pretty much on the same page about our reception of The Force Awakens back when we talked about it on the podcast. It was fun! And it felt hollow... The classic Enerton Machine effect of recent Disney films.


I've mentioned I became a convert, not so much because it became a favorite movie or anything but I began appreciating it for what it does well and was attempting instead of what it wasn't. I feel what's good about is dismissed too easilly based on feel. The ANH thing is a particularly weird litmus test rather than just saying, "I didn't like the characters, story, or how they handled Han Solo." Those are reasons not to like it, not because it pays tribute to ANH. I also haven't heard why that's so bad and feel like if it was anything but Star Wars the perception would be different, but you continue...

The surprise of it being NOT a complete shit show, and ticking the marks on all the ingredients for a successful action/scifi does not alone excite me. That's because The Force Awakens was built on a rigorous scaffolding of A New Hope.  I imagine that was intended to elicit a sense of resonance with fans, but ultimately came across as tracing on top of another success. Once I realized that was the direction of things, it was hard for me to really get into the movie, because only in small moments did it really feel like it was going out on its own.

Well, you're obviously prioritizing fresh ground and something really different. But that could be too little like Star Wars for my, obviously more nostalgic, taste. I don't think it's so dependent on A New Hope or substantially like it outside of superficial similarities that people focus on to the exclusion of everything that's not like it.

No, not really.

I sentence you to 200 hours of watching the prequels! No, too cruel, ten minutes or whatever you can take.

That was a decision made in a board room. Disney's machinery doesn't require much soul to drive its engines and get people into theaters these days. Pure, calculated competency will do the trick most of the time, which is how I'd categorize the recent Marvel movies HUGE SUCCESSES and yet somehow I couldn't give two shits about them.

That sounds like a nerve, tell us how you really feel. =)

What impressed me about TFA was that in a few instances, it did succeed in lightly tiptoeing out of the shadow of its legacy AND the homogeneous men in suits cracking the whip on J.J. Abrams back. But it still wasn't quite enough for me to cheer. Enjoyable? Certainly! CLASSIC FILM? No, and I think it's a mistake (albeit inevitable) to judge it by those standards at this point. What will the legacy of this new trilogy be? That's up to Disney and its franchise machine.

Well, that seems to inform your perception. I'm pretty sure studio suits decided to make The Empire Strikes Back in a boardroom at some point too, doesn't mean that Lucas, Kershner, Kasdan and Kurtz weren't making the film. This movie was also made by individual creative people that love Star Wars: J.J. Abrams, Lawrence Kasdan, Michael Arndt, and they made creative and artistic choices here we can disagree about, but I don't think there's much to indicate it was just written in a memo or that it's illegitimate because it was really made by THE MAN or something.

Not Rogue One though; totally focus-grouped and artificially constructed in an editing bay from raw Star Wars fan service footage. :carcus:

I didn't, and don't expect them to trump Empire either. And I'm okay with that. I just want them to tell a great story with great characters. So far we've got one of the two elements.

I just think the way they covered so much old and new ground while paying tribute to the original film was an impressive feat. That's really what turned it around for me. I didn't like the Death Star redux part deux any more than you, and could do without it, but when I view it in the larger context of how it pays tribute to one of the most significant films ever, not just as one Star Wars movie referencing another, as a film fan I really like that they did that. To me that was better, more worthwhile, and a greater degree of difficulty for a Star Wars revival than any random new plot they could've come up with. You're seeing this as a cheap and lazy calculation by Disney and its associates, but I think it was a labor of love by the filmmakers that ultimately might have hurt the movie, and certainly it's reputation in these media-savvy and cynical times.

You make it sound as though I'm some kind of inferno of passion either for or against Star Wars. I ain't.

I didn't mean to, more just reluctant, but I'm seeing that passion about Disney/Studio films though, which isn't necessarily a bad thing. I just don't think it's an outlook that meshes well with Star Wars past (except the original) or present.

As with most things, I just want to see the story go into exciting, surprising places, and do some new, interesting shit. So yeah, pretty vague I guess.

I think it did with it's characters and the reinvention of some of the series' tropes, but tropes nonetheless. I'm not sure how far out it could go without reestablishing that world 30+ years later in the "first act." I wouldn't want it to be too unlike Star Wars without a transition either, it's already different enough by default.

What's funny about Rian Johnson is that more than a decade ago, I was immediately taken by the guy before I even saw his movies. If you've heard or read him talk about films, he's fascinating, has some big ideas. But both Brick and Looper seemed terminally ill-conceived. I wanted to like those movies, but Christ, they were both so juvenile it was tough to stomach. That being said, I still harbor a small flame for the guy, and genuinely hope that he has the vision to make this new movie really GO PLACES.

Yeah... I'm hoping this is his moment to shine because while I like him and his work, especially his directing on Breaking Bad, his writing hasn't necessarily screamed, "This is the guy to do Star Wars!" Then again, Star Wars is full of big AND juvenile ideas, so here's hoping. BTW, doesn't the fact that they're letting him do this kind of disprove your Anti-Mouse House mantra in this instance? Selecting, supporting, and letting creative people do the creating is about the best thing a studio can do from that point of view.

The parallels are more substantial than just Starkiller Base. Did I somehow miss your point here? I don't think you're blind to all the New Hope parallels.

I'm not, but that one is the most substantial, and otherwise those parallels are fine and good, brilliant even how they're weaved throughout or reinvented, and don't really matter to the rest of the plot, which most definitely isn't just the skeleton of A New Hope. Like I said, people have it backward, they managed to weave A New Hope through their new plot, not the other way around. Someone correct me if im wrong, but I think the way the film was purportedly written supports this as the Starkiller stuff that cements it was added relatively late. But, it so quickly became the conventional wisdom, repeated ad nauseam, that nobody even questions it (and cites every tenuous connection as proof, ignoring the rest). It's a structurally very different and modern movie for better or worse, and having heavy allusions doesn't make it a remake (even if there's a desert and a detention center) or render the rest of the plot, which I demonstrated actually has little to do with it, moot. Now one can say it was a mistake that distracted from and overshadowed the plot, or it was weak plot, and/or they didn't like the characters or what happened (note: nobody actually says t =), but I don't buy the whole, "It's just like the first Star Wars and that's lazy and bad." Just as you're skeptical that the Disney workshop will produce anything of original artistic story value I'm skeptical of that conventional wisdom so especially prevalent online. Of course, that could also be coloring my perception.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2017, 06:58:44 AM by Griffith »

Offline Skeleton

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
« Reply #43 on: April 16, 2017, 05:28:05 AM »
Not Rogue One though; totally focus-grouped and artificially constructed in an editing bay from raw Star Wars fan service footage. =)

If The Force Awakens is any indication, I look forward to teaming up with you in two years to defend Rogue One when Walter criticizes it.  :carcus:

The thing I find interesting about the "The Force Awakens is a A New Hope clone" is that, even if it were true (objectively it ain't), it might be the most Star Wars thing Disney could do (and a negative that Disney didn't do it).

Think of the plot of ANH:  There's a boy from Tatooine who is unknowingly gifted with the Force (Luke).  He's found by a wizened Jedi (Obi-Wan) who takes him off-world to complete a quest (deliver the Death Star plans to the Rebels).  They're attacked by the bad guys just as they're making their escape (stormtroopers).  Through the course of the film there's a rescue of a female royal member (Princess Leia), the wizened Jedi is killed by a member of the Sith (Darth Vader kills Obi-Wan), and the Tatooine boy, with the help of R2-D2 and the Force, ends/wins the final battle by destroying a gigantic enemy ship (Death Star) that threatens the good guys the royal member is associated with (Rebels).  The movie ends with the good guys having a grand ceremony and celebration presided over by the royal member they rescued.

Now think of the plot of The Phantom Menace:  There's a boy from Tatooine who is unknowingly gifted with the Force (Anakin).  He's found by a wizened Jedi (Qui-Gon Jinn) who takes him off-world to complete a quest (deliver Amidala to the Senate).  They're attacked by the bad guys just as they're making their escape (Darth Maul).  Through the course of the film there's a rescue of a female royal member (Queen Amidala), the wizened Jedi is killed by a member of the Sith (Darth Maul kills Qui-Gon), and the Tatooine boy, with the help of R2-D2 and the Force, ends/wins the final battle by destroying a gigantic enemy ship (droid control ship) that threatens the good guys the royal member is associated with (Naboo).  The movie ends with the good guys having a grand ceremony and celebration presided over by the royal member they rescued.

See?  With the exception of superficial differences and the rearranging of events, it's Star Wars tradition to start every trilogy with the exact same movie.  So the fact that Disney didn't just copy A New Hope means The Force Awakens really is a terrible Star Wars film, and the TFA haters are right.

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
« Reply #44 on: April 16, 2017, 07:05:44 AM »
See, it's this hesitant, restrained or faint praise that's even more interesting, because there's a pretty compelling case it's an objectively good and entertaining as hell movie that pulls off the miracle of introducing new characters likable enough that old fans will tolerate the torch being passed on, and then does it. Everyone seems to take this and the high quality entertainment value provided for granted for some reason when Star Wars fans should really know better.

Good in what sense? It's got some good parts, like whoever plays the bad guy (name already forgotten) and most of the scenes he stars in, the chemistry between Rey and Finn, and uhhhh... that's it? Other than that it's a reboot/remake of the original movie, but less good in every way. What drove its success was nostalgia and brand power, not the fact it's an amazing movie in and of itself.

Oh and Rogue One was messy and boring. Totally forgettable. :casca:

Offline Griffith

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
« Reply #45 on: April 16, 2017, 08:17:12 AM »
Good in what sense? It's got some good parts, like whoever plays the bad guy (name already forgotten) and most of the scenes he stars in, the chemistry between Rey and Finn, and uhhhh... that's it?

Good main characters, chemistry, and a good villain in a big budget action adventure spectacle with a slick, top notch production that spares no expense; movies have been considered good with much less going for them. That's it, it's just good, we can say so out loud without being guarded ,that's my point.

Other than that it's a reboot/remake of the original movie, but less good in every way.

It's definitely a reboot in multiple ways, but scene by scene the circumstances, characterization, motivations, events, set pieces etc. are really not like a remake of ANH; it's more like a remix if anything, with certain touchstone scene highlighted, but that does not a re make. It just bugs me that this gets treated as gospel because... nobody cares about the plot! That's the real problem. Just say the plot isn't interesting enough to be characterized as more than a light ANH knock off. =)

Anyway, being less good than Star Wars isn't a problem either, but this is the whole thing in a nutshell, the good traits are dismissed for some vaguely negative assertion that its too much like Star Wars (!), and this is bad (?), to be good Star Wars.

What drove its success was nostalgia and brand power, not the fact it's an amazing movie in and of itself.

It's good enough to capitalize on those advantages to drive that success. Those advantages couldn't redeem the prequels because they're so plainly bad; so they made money but nobody would call them a success like TFA. I just think it's fair to call a spade a spade both ways. If we can bash everything for their shortcomings we can acknowledge and praise this movie's good qualities without shame.

Oh and Rogue One was messy and boring. Totally forgettable. :casca:

Yeah... I don't think I'll come around on that one.

Offline Skeleton

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
« Reply #46 on: April 16, 2017, 09:10:52 AM »
Oh and Rogue One was messy and boring. Totally forgettable. :casca:

Yeah... I don't think I'll come around on that one.

You two say that now, but, like Palpatine did to Anakin, I'll start an inappropriate relationship with you and over time corrupt your way of thinking. Two years from now, you'll be defending Rogue One and wondering how the hell you got there.


Offline Aazealh

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
« Reply #47 on: April 16, 2017, 09:21:38 AM »
Good main characters, chemistry, and a good villain in a big budget action adventure spectacle with a slick, top notch production that spares no expense; movies have been considered good with much less going for them. That's it, it's just good, we can say so out loud without being guarded ,that's my point.

Movies have been "considered good" while they absolutely sucked. It all depends on who's considering. If you want my opinion, then I think this movie has some good stuff in it, but I don't think it's firmly good as a whole. And that's because the good stuff is weighed down by the bad one. I think it's alright if you like Star Wars, but that's about it. I'd put it on the same level as Avengers 2.

It's definitely a reboot in multiple ways, but scene by scene the circumstances, characterization, motivations, events, set pieces etc. are really not like a remake of ANH; it's more like a remix if anything, with certain touchstone scene highlighted, but that does not a re make. It just bugs me that this gets treated as gospel because... nobody cares about the plot! That's the real problem. Just say the plot isn't interesting enough to be characterized as more than a light ANH knock off. =)

Remix/reboot/remake, whatever. It's derivative and not in a good way as far as I'm concerned. And that's because I personally care about the plot, and I think the plot sucks. I think STARKILLER BASE is a fucking joke, and I find the idea of a Death Star XTREEM EDITION almost insulting. The mysterious evil leader looks like a giant from RE4, the Han Solo ship escape scene is corny as hell, the political stuff is paper-thin, the resistance's struggle has zero gravitas to it, some side characters take up screen time uselessly, Leia can't articulate, Rey's prowess in all things lacks subtlety, etc. Like I said, there's some parts I like, but that doesn't erase the parts I don't like. I think the movie could have been vastly improved by having better writing and tighter editing.

Anyway, being less good than Star Wars isn't a problem either, but this is the whole thing in a nutshell, the good traits are dismissed for some vaguely negative assertion that its too much like Star Wars (!), and this is bad (?), to be good Star Wars.

Sounds to me like you're just saying the bad parts, which are non-trivial, should be dismissed because it's the Star Wars franchise. :iva:

f we can bash everything for their shortcomings we can acknowledge and praise this movie's good qualities without shame.

I have no shame saying I liked the parts I did. I just don't think they overwhelmingly outweigh the parts I didn't like.
To be honest this is the first time I think back on this movie since having watched it, which is in itself revelatory of its (lack of) impact on me.

Offline Sweval

Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
« Reply #48 on: April 16, 2017, 07:33:15 PM »
The first movies I remember watching are the original Star Wars trilogy so the franchise as a whole has a really special place in my heart as it does for others. I have a few problems with the Force Awakens, mainly its lack of actual characters but I did enjoy the movie as a whole. Rogue One kind of gave me hope for how Disney will be handling Star Wars, but the teaser killed most of that. The visual style and content just didn't feel Star Wars to me. There's a certain feeling I've come to expect with Star Wars, it's why anytime I watch A New Hope I get this stupid smile on my face or I'm still mystified by Yoda. This trailer just came across as standard Sci-Fi/Action Blockbuster, I'm very excited for more Luke Skywalker, and who wouldn't be he's one of the most iconic film characters of all time. However, as much as I complain I know for a fact I will see it in theaters at least twice.

Offline Skeleton

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi
« Reply #49 on: April 17, 2017, 12:58:04 AM »
There's a certain feeling I've come to expect with Star Wars, it's why anytime I watch A New Hope I get this stupid smile on my face or I'm still mystified by Yoda.

I think that's where most SW fans and I part ways, especially when it comes to the Disney era movies. To me, the most important aspects of Star Wars films are the story, how it fits into the greater canon universe, and whether or not it honors said universe. Take this trailer as an example. I agree completely that it doesn't feel like the OT SW films. (Like probably most SW fans, that was the first thing I noticed.) But when the trailer ended, my dominating thought was," What did she mean when she said she could see the light, darkness, and balance? If that's literal, does it fit in with what we know of the Force?  If it doesn't, I hope they're just using a visualization technique." I'm all about the story and ideas. The fact it didn't feel OT Star Wars-y was just a passing observation to me.

Of course, I say that now, but if this film ends up having the same feel as the prequel trilogy then the issue will suddenly become very important to me. :ganishka:

Going back to the trailer, one potential direction the story could take is that those (I'm assuming Jedi) ancient texts reveal the original Jedi religion/philosophy, showing how corrupt/misguided the Jedi order had become by the time of the prequel trilogy (which was off-handedly/subtly mentioned twice in the PT by Yoda). I really like this idea for two reasons:

1) It expands upon one of the few fascinating (to me) and overlooked aspects of the PT trilogy.

2) It gives them an excuse to correct what I think is Lucas' RotJ big mistake. Lucas wanted Luke to be an old school Jedi just like Obi-Wan and Yoda, but the story laid out by ESB didn't naturally flow there. So he forced the issue with RotJ's Yoda scene, soft retconning ESB's story to allow it.

I fully accept the canon, Luke is a Jedi, but I think a more natural flow would've been to have Luke become a new breed of Force user, one that's close to being like the Jedi (given Luke's incomplete, informal Jedi training) and fights for the same cause but perhaps skirts closer to the dark side than the Jedi would (like Luke did early in RotJ). In other words, if the Jedi are like the North Vietnamese Army (a big, well-regulated, official/state-sponsered organization) then Luke and his future school/order could have been the Viet Cong. Guerilla Jedi.

With those ancient Jedi tomes, they could essentially redefine what it means to be a really real Jedi (without retconning) to be closer to that.

But that's just one possibility.