Episode 351

[N7Paladin]

but this moment is underwhelming (so far) and to say otherwise is to fool yourself.

Someone clearly doesn't understand what has been happening in the past few manga episodes.

[Bender]

I have seen better examples of that in other work of art.

Care to expand on this?  I'm interested.

[Griffith]

Frankly, I thought it would be a higher stakes variation of the trolls quest and then the Elf King would basically wave a magic wand or clap his wings and the deed would be done. What I'm saying is this much better than the generic version. =)

Care to expand on this?  I'm interested.

I'm not, we haven't even gotten to the moment of truth yet and already we're entertaining some loudmouth nobody vaguely naysaying the whole thing, and before it's even half done for all we know. Somebody comes out of the woodwork to poo poo every such moment, including people whose knowledge and opinion of the series I actually respect, and I haven't seen one that's held up yet. I'd much rather get Miura's complete idea of a good restoration of Casca before hearing what random internet youtube commenter #1257437897 thinks based on their vast knowledge of "work of art."

As always:

[persiandud]

Care to expand on this?  I'm interested.

Same, I'm curious as to what answers he could come up with. This is unlike anything I've ever seen in a fantasy. I'm not sure what is "generic" about it. Despite the vitriol he's getting, I want to know if he can back up his words or if he, like others have said, is another fan nitpicking for the sake of it.

[Griffith]

You answer your own ponderment though, specifically, "What the hell are they talking about?" Even playing devil's advocate and noting that entering people's minds or dreams isn't new, the way it's being employed here is quite specific and appropriate, plus above and beyond the call of duty for what the audience needs to know to simply bring Casca back (it also doesn't need to be the best case ever since Berserk isn't primarily about that, just appropriate for this situation). We're basically getting an extra deep dive or look behind the curtain, which is nice since we've been without Casca so long (also a nice refresher/point of focus for new readers), and no doubt getting an important point of reference for her future development. We won't know for a while how it'll all work in the big picture, and that's the point, but it's been cool and is very promising to say the least.

Though, some guy registers an account and basically trolls "I could do better", and we should be curious if he's right? That's a lot of unearned benefit of the doubt, and when he comes up empty or wanting I doubt we'll get a mea culpa. Instead it'll be the endlessly evolving semantics of a bad faith argument where the words and their meanings change but their pointlessness remains the same (Farmers should offer internet insurance for this).

Ironically, I also don't think we'd be hearing these grumblings if the trial was just Guts killin' d00dz as opposed to a psychological quest concerning the physiological welfare of the series' three lead women. "Where's the killin' monstarz to makes this good and feel earned!? They're just like thinking and talking and facing Casca's worst traumas and shit?! Nobody's even lost a bloody limb! Lame!!" Nobody complains there's not enough random or excessive character development. =)

[Aazealh]

I have to agree with Griff, let's not waste any more time pondering the hypotheticals of a stupid comment.

I would rather have us discuss what we think might happen in the next few episodes and what impact it will have on the characters.

For example I'm surprised no one is talking about what the monsters in this episode suggest: that Casca is probably not going to want to immediately resume any kind of romantic relationship when she's restored. Not that it wasn't obvious to begin with, but I think this episode cemented it. People have been fantasizing about the Skull Knight's warning to Guts for years, but really, that simple fact would more than fit the bill.

But before getting to that they need to resolve the trauma and as I've mentioned before I feel like they aren't much closer to doing it than they were 4 episodes ago. They do know a good deal about Casca's past now, of course, which is essential to helping her out, but we still have no idea what the process of aiding her to cope with the trauma and persuading her to return will be like. It seems pretty obvious but I expect the Sprite to play a key role in this. Either as the force of hope and will to live within Casca (opposite the part of her that wants to stay like this) or as the "fully restored" version that they'll have to confront after gathering the last fragment (with the Sprite maybe merging with the doll or serving as the spark of life to animate it). In any case I feel that the Sprite's interactions with Farnese and Schierke since they've met could be key to Casca eventually trusting them and accepting to return..

And of course aside from all that there's the matter of Farnese and Schierke's own well-being. It's been made clear they're facing actual danger and I frankly have no idea how they'll get through the memory of the rape. Would Danan be able to shield them from the worst of it? Schierke's so young, and Farnese's mental resilience isn't the strongest... I can't imagine they wouldn't be traumatised if they were to experience it normally. Would Farnese shield Schierke from it and bear the trauma alone? It would be exceptionally brave of her, but also quite risky. As they have been warned, as as we've seen before, being hurt in there could have consequences on their real bodies... There's no telling what form that would take though. A scar? A discolored eye? I wonder.

There's a lot of unknowns going forward, even simply how they'll get past those thorny vines (which could take as little as two panels or as much as nine pages). If you guys want to keep the thread going, I'd like to hear what your thoughts are.

[Nothingwillbewong]

I am reaally excited about where tension will unfold next, so close to the core of something casca's subconsious (or whatever you may call it) doesn't want to be found. How it will defend itself apart from the mountain of thorns, which i still can't think how they will trespass it, will we see a metaphoric or twisted version of femto or do we only see him when the memory is obtained? The hype is very real to me right now 

[Walter]

I'm surprised no one is talking about what the monsters in this episode suggest: that Casca is probably not going to want to immediately resume any kind of romantic relationship when she's restored

Speaking for myself, that's always seemed to be the direction of things -- the sum of her traumatic experience and forced advent from the dream/nightmare world would be an aversion to Guts in some capacity. But indeed, the phallophobia evident in this ep presents a more visceral challenge for EVER engaging in an intimate relationship again.

That being said, the key to your phrasing is "not going to want to immediately resume." Miura can't keep these two apart from each other, given the momentum of the entire series. So rather than a "break-up" upon her awakening, I expect a cooling off period, during which the girls will give her companionship and she maintains a distance from Guts. But where will Guts' head be during this time? It may be natural for readers to conclude that Casca will eventually return to him, but it might not be for Guts. He's put all his chips on Casca for all these years. What will that rejection, even if it's ultimately temporary, do to him? The harrowing part of the restoration process is only beginning...

I expect the Sprite to play a key role in this. Either as the force of hope and will to live within Casca (opposite the part of her that wants to stay like this) or as the "fully restored" version that they'll have to confront after gathering the last fragment

I think it would be interesting if the sprite was able to show this traumatized, trapped Casca a peek at life in the wider world since the trauma began (if the sprite is even a vessel for memories, and not merely a representation of an aspect of per ego). Just like the memory fragments that compose the "doll"'s body showed visions of the past, the sprite could harbor visions of Guts fighting for her, her child, Griffith, and all the conflicting emotions of all three of these elements. Could it be enough to turn the tide for Casca and accept a return to reality?

As if it weren't already obvious, this is a BIG fucking event for Berserk and the future... More significant to the story and its trajectory even than Fantasia.

It's been made clear they're facing actual danger and I frankly have no idea how they'll get through the memory of the rape. Would Danan be able to shield them from the worst of it? Schierke's so young, and Farnese's mental resilience isn't the strongest...

The memory of the Eclipse has been a literal threat hanging in the sky for this entire sequence. It's almost a relief that we're getting a 4-6 month reprieve before Miura finally drops the blade onto our necks. The idea of Farnese shielding Schierke from that trauma is great/painful. This hypothetical predicament you've concocted is forcing me to take sides — which character do I want LESS traumatized. The obvious answer is Schierke, because fuck that'd certainly be a "gloves off" moment for Miura ... But Farnese has come so far, it would be disheartening to see her permanently scarred, yet another victim of the trauma of the Eclipse.

Though as you allude to, there are other possibilities -- Danan protecting them, Guts/dog going down for the count (what would that mean...?) -- I almost wouldn't want an external force in this instance. Schierke and Farnese should bear the cost of this process if there is one to be paid. I almost feel like some counterstroke for this process would be ... grimly appropriate. Perhaps it'll be something simple, like Guts' white tuft of hair, while also serving as a lasting reminder of the cost of their journey.


A parting thought, I am eagerly anticipating how Miura will choose to represent Femto in this world. I can't imagine it will be a straight-up carbon copy of the being, but some monstrous depiction. I can't wait.   

[Griffith]

It's been pretty clear since the beginning of the post-Eclipse era that Casca will have issues being intimate or even trusting men ever again, to put it mildly considering the extent of her condition, Guts included and for specific reason. BUT, if Guts is patient, and I think it could be a struggle and potential growth for him, I also think he's the one uniquely qualified to understand and relate to this with his own experience surviving sexual assault and betrayal by a trusted mentor to boot. Casca was the one to really help Guts face and cure those demons for himself, the only one he confided in at all and not even voluntarily at first, but now can be his time to understand her situation and reciprocate with her as only he can. We'll see, but this could be damn fine stuff as well as harrowing.

Guts/dog going down for the count (what would that mean...?)

I too don't want any easy answers for them getting through this, but I don't expect them either, and actually think the possible demise of Guts-Dog would be a good thing for Casca; symbolizing that she doesn't need such a protector anymore, she can do it herself.

[Bender]

I have to agree with Griff, let's not waste any more time pondering the hypotheticals of a stupid comment.

Fair enough.  I just find myself trying to think of something similar in another work that does not involve the main character fighting a bizarro version of himself in some boring, repetitive way.  The fact that he just slammed it and did not bother to back up his opinion with anything of substance is really all we need.

As far as what will happen in the future, I wonder if the child will show up to help? I think something has to happen to protect them from what they are about to see and feel from Casca's point of view.  These events destroyed her and she was no push over.  If these two were to go through the same with out help, I cant imagine they would come out any better.

[Aazealh]

But where will Guts' head be during this time? [...] He's put all his chips on Casca for all these years. What will that rejection, even if it's ultimately temporary, do to him? The harrowing part of the restoration process is only beginning...

Yeah, it will be hard to take for sure. For a reader's perspective, it will be interesting to see what it does to his morale. Could it sap his will to fight? Would it nullify his inner struggling-self, so that he'd basically let himself be beaten down? Or would he succumb to the armor's enticement and risk having his mind destroyed? Then Casca would have to help bring him back.

I think it would be interesting if the sprite was able to show this traumatized, trapped Casca a peek at life in the wider world since the trauma began (if the sprite is even a vessel for memories, and not merely a representation of an aspect of per ego). Just like the memory fragments that compose the "doll"'s body showed visions of the past, the sprite could harbor visions of Guts fighting for her, her child, Griffith, and all the conflicting emotions of all three of these elements.

I don't think the sprite will be able to do that. However, Schierke and Farnese sure could, and I expect them to. That's why they're here.

This hypothetical predicament you've concocted is forcing me to take sides — which character do I want LESS traumatized. The obvious answer is Schierke, because fuck that'd certainly be a "gloves off" moment for Miura ... But Farnese has come so far, it would be disheartening to see her permanently scarred, yet another victim of the trauma of the Eclipse.

Pushing the hypothesis to its conclusion, I think it could be an opportunity for Farnese to grow further eventually.

Guts/dog going down for the count (what would that mean...?)

I don't think the dog really matters to be honest, at least not if she's restored. It's just part of that nightmare, a figment of her mind. The most meaningful thing I can think of is that he's a projection of her own fighting spirit, her refusal —however tiny— to completely let go. In that view, banishing it might also hypothetical suppress the warrior-part of her, but I'm not convinced. She'll have plenty to deal with as it is.

I almost feel like some counterstroke for this process would be ... grimly appropriate. Perhaps it'll be something simple, like Guts' white tuft of hair, while also serving as a lasting reminder of the cost of their journey.

Yep, that's what I had in mind.

A parting thought, I am eagerly anticipating how Miura will choose to represent Femto in this world. I can't imagine it will be a straight-up carbon copy of the being, but some monstrous depiction. I can't wait.

I'm actually not sure we'll see Femto represented in the nightmare world itself. He will be within the memory, of course, but other than that? I don't know. Could be. The Black Sun could morph into his eye, would befit his unblinking stare (but I prefer the idea of it being Guts' eye). Hard to say beyond that.

BUT, if Guts is patient, and I think it could be a struggle and potential growth for him, I also think he's the one uniquely qualified to understand and relate to this with his own experience surviving sexual assault and betrayal by a trusted mentor to boot. Casca was the one to really help Guts face and cure those demons for himself, the only one he confided in at all and not even voluntarily at first, but now can be his time to understand her situation and reciprocate with her as only he can. We'll see, but this could be damn fine stuff as well as harrowing.

Excellent point and completely agree. Casca has helped Guts with his own trauma and he's particularly well-suited to help her with hers. Beyond even the rape, he's also still haunted by the Eclipse to this day, and his mental anguish shouldn't be understated. He's been downright neurotic at times. Sharing their mutual pain could do them both a lot of good, even if it'll take time.

[puella]

Miura's comment for this episode: "Established! Established! Grunbeld's character has been established. ♪ ヽ(´ ▽ `)／ "

[Griffith]

Miura's comment for this episode: "Established! Established! Grunbeld's character has been established. ♪ ヽ(´ ▽ `)／ "

Lol, I'm completely biased so I like to read this completely neutral endorsement negatively, like, "It's over, they've ruined him!" "

Update: Oh no, music notes and smiley faces!?

So, not even a story credit for Miura on the book beyond "based on" status? 

[Johnny Apples]

Miura's comment for this episode: "Established! Established! Grunbeld's character has been established. ♪ ヽ(´ ▽ `)／ "

So then....this means the "Berserk: Flame Dragon Knight" light novel is actually canon after all? 

[Rhombaad]

So then....this means the "Berserk: Flame Dragon Knight" light novel is actually canon after all? 

Only if you read it.

[Aazealh]

So, not even a story credit for Miura on the book beyond "based on" status? 

Same thing I said in the novel thread weeks ago. Novel: Makoto Fukami | Original: Miura Kentarou
Hypothetically it's possible be that Miura provided an outline or something, but nothing explicitly indicates it.

So then....this means the "Berserk: Flame Dragon Knight" light novel is actually canon after all? 

When was it not supposed to be canon? It was a done deal as soon as we knew Miura was providing illustrations for it.

[Griffith]

Same thing I said in the novel thread weeks ago. Novel: Makoto Fukami | Original: Miura Kentarou
Hypothetically it's possible be that Miura provided an outline or something, but nothing explicitly indicates it.

I hope so, but yeah... That comment seems so open-ended to me too, like I could see every one of Griffith's lieutenants being "established" this way as we'd feared, or worse...

"Established! Established! Locus' character has been established. ♪ ヽ(´ ▽ `)／ "

 

"Established! Established! Irvine's character has been established. ♪ ヽ(´ ▽ `)／ "

 

"Established! Established! Zodd's character has been established. ♪ ヽ(´ ▽ `)／ "

 

"Established! Established! Skull Knight's character has been established. ♪ ヽ(´ ▽ `)／ "

 

When was it not supposed to be canon? It was a done deal as soon as we knew Miura was providing illustrations for it.

It's just a part of the Berserk EU, so we can continue to debate it's relevance. =) Excuse me...

[MrFlibble]

For example I'm surprised no one is talking about what the monsters in this episode suggest: that Casca is probably not going to want to immediately resume any kind of romantic relationship when she's restored. Not that it wasn't obvious to begin with, but I think this episode cemented it. People have been fantasizing about the Skull Knight's warning to Guts for years, but really, that simple fact would more than fit the bill.

I don't think there's much evidence for that, Casca in her current state is hostile towards men, but there's no reason why Casca would still be like that when her mind is restored, plus it seems like overkill for her to still carry the weight of her trauma with her after she recovered from that very same trauma. Not that I'm expecting her to be all sunshine and rainbows after being insane for four years

But before getting to that they need to resolve the trauma and as I've mentioned before I feel like they aren't much closer to doing it than they were 4 episodes ago. They do know a good deal about Casca's past now, of course, which is essential to helping her out.

I would have least thought, by this time they would have known who Griffith was and what he meant to Casca (they haven't even any memories of him in his tortured state yet,) it's going to get even more confusing when they see him in his God Hand form.

And of course aside from all that there's the matter of Farnese and Schierke's own well-being. It's been made clear they're facing actual danger and I frankly have no idea how they'll get through the memory of the rape. Would Danan be able to shield them from the worst of it? Schierke's so young, and Farnese's mental resilience isn't the strongest... I can't imagine they wouldn't be traumatised if they were to experience it normally. Would Farnese shield Schierke from it and bear the trauma alone? It would be exceptionally brave of her, but also quite risky. As they have been warned, as as we've seen before, being hurt in there could have consequences on their real bodies... There's no telling what form that would take though. A scar? A discolored eye? I wonder.

They have witnessed violent rape before in Qliphoth. so it won't be an alien experience for them, then again this time they're not only witnessing it, they'll be experiencing Casca's emotions too, all of that trauma will be imprinted on them.

I am interseted in what she will think of Griffith after this though, I'm not one of the conspiritards who thinks Casca is going to flock to Griffith's side, but I don't think she has the capacity to hate him with the same intensity as Guts, he was after all the second most important man in her life, and she may be a vital to convincing Guts to forgive Griffith, if that ever happens.

Which brings me to another tangent, this all puts Griffith in a very vulnerable position, if Guts discovers from Casca that the moonlight boy is indeed his son and sharing a body with Griffith, then Griffith has just handed his greatest enemy knowledge about his only weak spot.

[Menosgade]

I don't think there's much evidence for that, Casca in her current state is hostile towards men, but there's no reason why Casca would still be like that when her mind is restored, plus it seems like overkill for her to still carry the weight of her trauma with her after she recovered from that very same trauma.

There's no such thing as overkill. Collateral effects such as inability to speak, at least for some time, are plausibe. An aversion towards male is the least painful effect we can expect. Recovering from the trauma means getting her back to sanity, using you logic and assuming she wouldn't have any more problems with males is kinda like saying she won't have problems with Femto either.

I would have least thought, by this time they would have known who Griffith was and what he meant to Casca (they haven't even any memories of him in his tortured state yet,) it's going to get even more confusing when they see him in his God Hand form.

They've seen him as someone important in her memories. Seeing him in the tortured state wouldn't help them believe that it's the same long hair guy, wich they probably wouldn't recognize after maimed,  and that he became a demon and raped her. Maybe they'll make a link by her feelings when Femto appears inside the dream. My bet is that they won't be able to put things together just by her dream and memories - they aren't organized information.

[Aazealh]

I don't think there's much evidence for that, Casca in her current state is hostile towards men, but there's no reason why Casca would still be like that when her mind is restored, plus it seems like overkill for her to still carry the weight of her trauma with her after she recovered from that very same trauma. Not that I'm expecting her to be all sunshine and rainbows after being insane for four years

Not being insane anymore isn't the same as being 100% rid of all trauma. What they're doing here is trying to convince Casca to return to the world, to face her pain. They're not wiping her mind. Anyway, I said Casca will probably not want to immediately resume a romantic relationship when she's restored, do you disagree with that? Otherwise what do you mean by not being all sunshine and rainbows?

I would have least thought, by this time they would have known who Griffith was and what he meant to Casca (they haven't even any memories of him in his tortured state yet,) it's going to get even more confusing when they see him in his God Hand form.

They know who Griffith is/was. They've both had plenty of exposure and have even seen him, albeit from afar. In fact Guts was talking about him not so long ago, in episode 345. We also don't know how much they've seen in Casca's memories so far. We've only been shown a fraction of all the fragments they've collected, and Miura could have very well done so on purpose, keeping some of them off screen so that they could be evoked through flashbacks near the moment of crisis. If needed, Farnese and Schierke could very well just think back to those fragments they gathered off-screen earlier. Or maybe the last fragment will be a massive one that'll incorporate a whole slew of moments. Either way I'm not worried about confusion.

Quiloth

Qliphoth.

I am interseted in what she will think of Griffith after this though, I'm not one of the conspiritards who thinks Casca is going to flock to Griffith's side, but I don't think she has the capacity to hate him with the same intensity as Guts, he was after all the second most important man in her life.

Are you sure you're not one of those guys? Because you sound like them. "He was after all the second most important man in her life"... and then he sacrificed her and all her friends (who were horribly butchered), then gruesomely raped her in front of her boyfriend. Speaking about "intensity of hatred" feels like a complete cop-out to me, as if she would ever somehow give him a pass for what he did. Remember who else couldn't hate Griffith like Guts? Rickert. And he straight up slapped him in the face the next time he saw him, told him how he felt and stormed out. I don't understand how anyone could expect Casca to feel something other than disgust/pain/anger/fear/depression about Griffith. Oh and just you wait till she learns he corrupted her and Guts' son, and then later on took over his body for himself.

Which brings me to another tangent, this all puts Griffith in a very vulnerable position, if Guts discovers from Casca that the moonlight boy is indeed his son and sharing a body with Griffith, then Griffith has just handed his greatest enemy knowledge about his only weak spot.

I have been saying that the Boy in the Moonlight will be Griffith's downfall for literally ten years. However you're misreading the situation here. First, Griffith hasn't handed anything to anyone. His weakness lies in the fact the boy would probably not let him hurt his parents without reacting. He'd try to stop him or to take over the body like he did in volume 22. That's an unforeseen side effect of the incarnation process. Second, that knowledge, that their son's life is tied to that of their enemy, is sure to bring them immense anguish and doubt. Would they risk killing their son? I don't believe Casca would, and despite everything I don't believe Guts would either.

On a side note, I don't think Griffith considers Guts his greatest enemy, and I don't think Casca will emerge from her stupor with intricate knowledge about her son and Femto. They will probably need to figure that out afterwards.

[Griffith]

I don't think there's much evidence for that, Casca in her current state is hostile towards men, but there's no reason why Casca would still be like that when her mind is restored, plus it seems like overkill for her to still carry the weight of her trauma with her after she recovered from that very same trauma. Not that I'm expecting her to be all sunshine and rainbows after being insane for four years

There's degrees to these things though, and her aversion to men and insanity aren't necessarily one in the same thing, but two separate reactions to the same incident. After all, she did come around to trusting Guts and men in general again even though her state of mind didn't change, so just because her sanity is cured doesn't mean the trauma is all gone too. Look at Guts for an example of a rape survivor in the series; he wouldn't let ANYONE even make casual physical contact with him for years, and he when he tried to be intimate with Casca he suffered a violent, psychotic break. I think the broken pieces are a good metaphor that Casca's restoration is going to be like something that was noticeably broken and put back together, not like new.

I am interseted in what she will think of Griffith after this though, I'm not one of the conspiritards who thinks Casca is going to flock to Griffith's side, but I don't think she has the capacity to hate him with the same intensity as Guts, he was after all the second most important man in her life, and she may be a vital to convincing Guts to forgive Griffith, if that ever happens.

Which brings me to another tangent, this all puts Griffith in a very vulnerable position, if Guts discovers from Casca that the moonlight boy is indeed his son and sharing a body with Griffith, then Griffith has just handed his greatest enemy knowledge about his only weak spot.

Those are two double-edged swords, it's all the more reason for Casca to hate Griffith, because he violated and hijacked her son's body, and all the more reason for Guts and Casca to be wary of killing him because of how it could affect their son. If it were, or there otherwise was a way, to free the boy on the other hand...

[Kaladin]

Digital YA is out

[Aazealh]

Digital YA is out

Thanks for the info! At first I was surprised that volume 39 isn't available yet, but then I remembered it took them years to stock the more recent ones after they launched this online store. I hope they'll make it available faster this time.

[darnage]

Oh and just you wait till she learns he corrupted her and Guts' son, and then later on took over his body for himself.

Speaking of this, what knowledge will she have about her son once she's back? Will broken, she was able to identify him as her son even after changing to his current form and she can even feel him when he's nearby. That probably means that when Griffith corrupted the fœtus, Casca was also corrupted to some extent. That bring the question of whether that corruption will be vanquished by Farnese and Schierk or would that become a definitive part of her she will have to deal with.

[Aazealh]

Speaking of this, what knowledge will she have about her son once she's back?

That's a good question. We don't know what memories she will have from her insane days. One of my guesses is that she'll only have snippets from here and there. I think she'll need to relearn/rediscover what she instinctively knew about her son.

she was able to identify him as her son even after changing to his current form and she can even feel him when he's nearby. That probably means that when Griffith corrupted the fœtus, Casca was also corrupted to some extent.

Uhhh, no. She just could feel him with her Brand. While it's likely not something the God Hand intended, we've seen that the Brand allows those who carry it to feel the presence of evil and other supernatural beings with surprising accuracy. See for example how Guts could tell Flora was a witch upon seeing her, but also knew she wasn't evil. So Casca, while she was insane, could recognize her son instinctively as a mother through that particular sensation. That's why she could tell it was him even when Griffith showed up in volume 22, or when the Boy in the Moonlight first appeared. She will retain that ability even after she's cured, but might need some time to remember why that particular sensation feels familiar.