Poll

What do you think Guts's Lineage is, or if it will play into future story?

No Extraordinary Roots. No Explaination Needed.
32 (94.1%)
Tied to another character's bloodline.  ie. shares some lineage with another character bloodline like SK or Roderic
0 (0%)
Tied to a Royal Bloodline.  Potentially a viable claim to rule somewhere.
0 (0%)
ZOMG!! Must be half-Something that makes him strong!! (ie. Half-Kelpie, Half-Apostle, Half-Troll)
2 (5.9%)
Other: doesn't fit with other options. Please explain in a post.
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 34

Author Topic: Guts's Lineage  (Read 1012 times)

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Offline Headless Death

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Guts's Lineage
« on: November 06, 2017, 04:38:33 PM »
I have had this as a discussion before with a couple friends, and they immediately think that Guts must be special in someway.  Which fits into the "Hero's journey" archetype.  For example Harry Potter was the son of respected wizard, or Luke was the son of the greatest Jedi.  So with this line of thinking, Guts could be special by having a blood relation with a notable character, or royal blood, or in the case of fantasy maybe special strength granted through some sort of mixed birth(Like the part demon/devil that likes to appear so much in anime).

In my opinion, the needs to be special doesn't fit for Guts.  I feel the power of the story pushes Guts to be of Mundane Roots, but with the overall push to show that he is a survivor.  He was born to the death of his mother hanging from a tree.  Abandoned by all, but survives to see another day thanks to Shisu.  Had rough childhood where he was taught to survive or die by Gambino.  Each step of his life demonstrating the strength of the will to survive despite "only being human" or despite unwelcoming odds.  His growth as a character shifts the focus of not just self preservation(Early life), but ensuring the survival of others(OG BoTF, and current traveling party) through his will and resolve breaking beyond the norm of what should be possible with only having mundane roots and manifesting into his many extraordinary feats.

With that in mind, I think that the story has it all wrapped up on his Lineage.  I think he was born to a common woman, maybe hung for being suspected as a heretic, and then taken in by Shisu and Gambino.  I think anything beyond that is likely to be irrelevant.

Just wanted to get an idea of what the thoughts of other readers were on the topic.

Offline Walter

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Re: Guts's Lineage
« Reply #1 on: November 06, 2017, 05:34:49 PM »
I've seen such ideas as well, but don't think you'll get much argument here on the matter.

I think theories that postulate Guts being "special" to explain his strength, survival abilities, etc. are completely missing the point of the series Guts achieved these monumental feats despite being "merely" a human, facing opponents who have given everything that mattered to them to become inhuman. Making Guts "special" through lineage would dilute all that he has suffered through to become who he is.

And that's merely my thematic explanation for why Guts is not "special." What about the matter of evidence for such a theory? It simply does not exist. Guts' origins are touched on exactly once in the series, and the focus of that scene is not a matter of his parentage, it was his incredible tenacity, even in birth. Beyond that point, parentage for Guts comes in adoptive forms, and his bloodline relatives are never mentioned. If Miura wanted readers to be curious about those things, he has had nearly 30 years of opportunities to drop hints and allude to possibilities beyond the obvious. Yet, there is simply nothing there.
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Offline Aazealh

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Re: Guts's Lineage
« Reply #2 on: November 06, 2017, 07:39:58 PM »
The story makes it pretty clear that Guts was born normal and only became the powerhouse he is through a life of hardships and perseverance. And really, this is basically Berserk's central theme. A "mere man" standing up against supernatural monsters through the sheer power of his will...  and his brawn.

Offline MrFlibble

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Re: Guts's Lineage
« Reply #3 on: November 06, 2017, 10:16:31 PM »
Guts does kind of fit in to the Monomyth archetype, he's a mercenary through tradgic circumstance loses his friends and becomes cursed, and he goes on a journey of revenge, it's not a call to adventure, but it is a journey, and I suppose SK is his mentor stand in.

About Guts lineage, Guts' dad may have been a mercenary who raped his mother, or perhaps his Parents were normal and his warrior genes were dormant unitil they were passed down to Guts (That's not how genetics works MrFlibble). I don't think it matters, Berserk is a very tight story, and we're only shown what needs to be shown, I wonder about who Griffiths parents were too, but actually seeing these characters would take away from the idea of Guts and Griffith coming from nothing.

Offline Griffith

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Re: Guts's Lineage
« Reply #4 on: November 07, 2017, 05:05:18 AM »
Well, so far it's unanimous. :guts:

Yeah, humble origins are the way to go with the big guy; he's extraordinary by his own means, not any sort of lineage or predestiny, which perfectly fits his character, makeup and the story's broader themes as they relate to him, as just about everyone has pointed out. So, Miura shouldn't fuck him up like some Jon Snow... on the other hand, he is a Star Wars fan, so maybe he won't be able to resist the pull of "legitimizing" Guts with some kind if impressive background that explains his physical prowess if nothing else. He doesn't have to be Skully's and Flora's secret lovechild (actually Griff makes more sense for Gaiseric blood) to simply have a biological father or mother that were more than average, but if I had to guess I'd assume they'll remain anonymous; for better or worse Shisu and Gambino are Guts' parents.

Or he's an EFL! :puck: :troll:

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Guts's Lineage
« Reply #5 on: November 07, 2017, 07:08:02 AM »
Guts does kind of fit in to the Monomyth archetype, he's a mercenary through tradgic circumstance loses his friends and becomes cursed, and he goes on a journey of revenge, it's not a call to adventure, but it is a journey, and I suppose SK is his mentor stand in.

Pretty lame argument. Everything fits the one-size-fits-all box when the starting goal is to make it fit.

Offline GiantSword Mufasa

Re: Guts's Lineage
« Reply #6 on: November 07, 2017, 03:39:22 PM »
The story makes it pretty clear that Guts was born normal and only became the powerhouse he is through a life of hardships and perseverance. And really, this is basically Berserk's central theme. A "mere man" standing up against supernatural monsters through the sheer power of his will...  and his brawn.

could not have said it better myself. that's what drew me to berserk, that he is just a man, forced to cope with hand he was dealt.
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Offline Griffith

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Re: Guts's Lineage
« Reply #7 on: November 07, 2017, 08:04:31 PM »
Speaking of Guts lineage, lets look at his actual pedigree, or Guts' "father figures"/male role-models, ranked:

1. Godot - They didn't know each other long, but Godot is like Guts' father in adulthood when he still lives at home, and though Godot would like the young punk to move out of gaddam house already, he also cares about him. More importantly, in addition to being a good and decent man where it counts, Godot has no room for bullshit, and will call Guts out on his. He pretty much was there for and turned Guts' life around on multiple occassions. It wasn't ideal or even formal, there was almost no show of affection either way, but Godot was the best father Guts ever had.

2. Skull Knight - They're the two most badass fighters in the series following the same path to hell. They have a strong, if somewhat stilted, mentor/mentee relationship and are largely fighting the same fight, with Skull Knight showing Guts the way and saving his ass since he left Griffith's side. Skull Knight is pretty much the only character with the clout to act like Guts' daddy and get away.

3. Griffith - Shocking? Only that he's not higher, since arguably nobody has had a more profound impact on Guts and his life, for better and much, much worse. Griff "gave" Guts a place to belong, real friends and friendship, and a new way of looking at himself and the world. He influenced him a little TOO MUCH for their own good as it turns out, even turning the big lug into something of a warrior poet for a time. And then Griff took, almost, all of it away. Bad friend and another heartbreaking betrayel. No wonder Guts doesn't want to get close to anybody!

4. Gambino - Was Guts' actual, albeit begrudging, adoptive father of course. Raised, provided for, and taught Guts how to fight and survive despite being a big asshole that also imperiled him in the process. Then Gambino sold him out to a pedophile, tried to killed him, died by his sword, and got Guts ostracized by their band. Verdict: one bad dad, so despite the fatherly bonifides dropped to #4. You should be last, asshole.

5. Zodd - Time for some tough love! You might think I'm joking, but nobody has provided Guts a better example and measure on the battlefield. He also clearly admires and may even be... proud of Guts? He's even helped, fought alongside, and spared Guts on a few occasions, once after Guts basically threatened his master (tell me he doesn't have a soft-spot for him =). So, despite trying to kill him on multiple times, Zodd has otherwise displayed a surprising amount of fondness and even concern for Guts. Basically, Zodd would be proud to have a son like him.

6. Guts' Biological Father - ???, was he a warrior, a heretic, did he meet a similar fate as Guts' mother or did he victimize her as well? Nothing but questions we'll probably never know the answer to.

Honorable Mention: Azan is a good and admirable man, but more like a peer to Guts than a mentor despite their difference in age and Azan's wisdom. Just not the right time and place for these two to have that sort of relationship.

Bonus: Grunbeld - Why's he on here at all besides a superficial resemblance resulting in lazy theory? Well, because he's a cautionary example, the "do as I say, not as I do" lecturer with nothing more to offer. A lame wannabe stepdad Guts should mouth off to and rebel against, and he did! You suck, Grundad! :guts:

Offline JMP

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Re: Guts's Lineage
« Reply #8 on: November 07, 2017, 09:59:11 PM »
Bonus: Grunbeld - Why's he on here at all besides a superficial resemblance resulting in lazy theory? Well, because he's a cautionary example, the "do as I say, not as I do" lecturer with nothing more to offer. A lame wannabe stepdad Guts should mouth off to and rebel against, and he did! You suck, Grundad! :guts:
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Offline Headless Death

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Re: Guts's Lineage
« Reply #9 on: November 08, 2017, 01:59:34 AM »
So, Miura shouldn't fuck him up like some Jon Snow... on the other hand, he is a Star Wars fan, so maybe he won't be able to resist the pull of "legitimizing" Guts with some kind if impressive background that explains his physical prowess if nothing else.
If Miura decides to do anything with "legitimizing" Guts, I'm hoping it would ignore his physical prowess and instead focus on some potential plot element.  For example a simple relation to some future character that explains why his mother was hung.  I don't think any "legitimizing" is needed, but I wouldn't want anything to trivialize Guts's tenacity.

Or he's an EFL! :puck: :troll:
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Offline Menosgade

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Re: Guts's Lineage
« Reply #10 on: November 08, 2017, 09:17:21 AM »
2. Skull Knight - They're the two most badass fighters in the series following the same path to hell. They have a strong, if somewhat stilted, mentor/mentee relationship and are largely fighting the same fight, with Skull Knight showing Guts the way and saving his ass since he left Griffith's side. Skull Knight is pretty much the only character with the clout to act like Guts' daddy and get away.

Bonus: Grunbeld - Why's he on here at all besides a superficial resemblance resulting in lazy theory? Well, because he's a cautionary example, the "do as I say, not as I do" lecturer with nothing more to offer. A lame wannabe stepdad Guts should mouth off to and rebel against, and he did! You suck, Grundad! :guts:

I believe you're right about Grunbeld. At the same time he cares for his son, he is also a very proud warrior... Since he didn't have time to educate his son on the arts of war and duelist finesse (includes midland *cough* french *cough* jargon), he beats his own son with a hammer, unsuccessful in making Guts a man like him. Very much a child protection department issue.

On the other hand, SK stands out as the sensitive uncle, unlike most uncle tropes. Years of existance between life and death have made him pretty chill and wise, ideal for a weathered mentor, as well as regretful about not having a son himself. He cares for family (must I say FLORA?  :slan:)*. However, this means the warlike dad-issues Grunbeld has a claim on Midland thanks to his ancient Emperor brother (!) Feudalism working wonders again, what happens now to be nothing less than Falconia. I would not be surprised if an apostle civil war broke out. Or Griffith's assassination (Hell, Rickert was the first move towards assassination! :rickert: Is Grunbeld actually using Rickert, just to be discarded after?).

*Very strong evidence for Guts and Schierke being cousins.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2017, 09:38:05 AM by Menosgade »

Offline Fancypantaloons

Re: Guts's Lineage
« Reply #11 on: November 09, 2017, 04:15:53 PM »
Am I missing something about Grunbeld? I'm not following you guys in this point.

Offline Griffith

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Re: Guts's Lineage
« Reply #12 on: November 09, 2017, 06:43:28 PM »
Am I missing something about Grunbeld? I'm not following you guys in this point.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I was just taking a tongue-in-cheek look at Guts practical "lineage" and took the opportunity to bust on Grunny because he's such a big, lovable dork.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2017, 07:16:00 PM by Griffith »

Offline Fancypantaloons

Re: Guts's Lineage
« Reply #13 on: November 10, 2017, 01:44:01 AM »
I can't speak for anyone else, but I was just taking a tongue-in-cheek look at Guts practical "lineage" and took the opportunity to bust on Grunny because he's such a big, lovable dork.

That's what I thought when I read your comment, but then I read the other ones and I started to doubt.

Anyway, sorry for the off-topic.

Offline CrimsonBehelit216

Re: Guts's Lineage
« Reply #14 on: November 21, 2017, 05:55:42 AM »
I get that Guts not being gifted at birth with some special trait or bloodline makes his story that more interesting, but I am not entirely convinced he is ordinary. I don't believe that a "normal" human being no matter how strong could swing a sword of that size that fast and not fracture a wrist... just saying :P

Offline Cyrus Jong

Re: Guts's Lineage
« Reply #15 on: November 21, 2017, 07:18:01 AM »
I get that Guts not being gifted at birth with some special trait or bloodline makes his story that more interesting, but I am not entirely convinced he is ordinary. I don't believe that a "normal" human being no matter how strong could swing a sword of that size that fast and not fracture a wrist... just saying :P

Maybe not an ordinary human being in our world. But in Berserk's world? Guts is among a handful of people capable of pulling off nigh superhuman feats with frightening regularity. Adon's brother was absolutely massive, and he wielded a flail with a morning star that was as big as a human head. Boscone sliced four armored horsemen in half with a single swing of his halberd. And then there's every member of the Bakiraka, like the one guy who could hurl spears with the force of a cannon blast, or the Tapasa who can break armor with their bare knuckles. Lets face it...humans in Berserk's world are capable of doing some scary stuff even without magic or demonic power.

Offline ThePiedPiper

Re: Guts's Lineage
« Reply #16 on: November 21, 2017, 10:34:31 AM »
Yeah, we need to adjust our gauge a little bit when examining ability in the world in Berserk and using reality as reference. Their strongest humans will always be greater than our strongest.

While it's true that Guts receives notable reactions from people when wielding his sword so effectively, there are feats people in reality pull off that receive awe, notable comment, and/or shock (and usually rightly so). It's relevant to notice the greatness of feats displayed in Berserk, and necessary to pay attention to reactions witnesses give, but there's something more important than those things that is missing. There have been several instances of people slicing the bodies of armor-clad soldiers clean through, moments that people displayed incredible agility and acrobatics (Casca, Silat), and times when some pulled off other insane feats as listed above, yet received no mention of them being special other than being especially talented, or mighty. We can only assume they are incredible people born through normal means until told otherwise in the narrative.
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Offline MrFlibble

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Re: Guts's Lineage
« Reply #17 on: November 21, 2017, 03:28:04 PM »
Yeah, we need to adjust our gauge a little bit when examining ability in the world in Berserk and using reality as reference. Their strongest humans will always be greater than our strongest.

I'm pretty sure prime Muhammad Ali could beat a Tapasa in a fight.




Offline Aazealh

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Re: Guts's Lineage
« Reply #18 on: November 21, 2017, 06:50:12 PM »
I don't believe that a "normal" human being no matter how strong could swing a sword of that size that fast and not fracture a wrist... just saying :P

Normal humans are also born with nipples, unlike Guts (or any other man in Berserk). Berserk is a fantasy story set in a fictional world.

Offline Menosgade

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Re: Guts's Lineage
« Reply #19 on: November 23, 2017, 11:31:03 AM »
I don't believe that a "normal" human being no matter how strong could swing a sword of that size that fast and not fracture a wrist... just saying :P

If we were to nitpick, we could find plenty of little details that wouldn't make sense in reality. What strikes me the most is the pletora of non-pratical helmets and the absurd lack of maille in most soldiers. And Guts cutting thru plate armour, what doesn't happen IRL. But it doens't really make a difference, does it? It's a fantasy manga, not a history documentary. We read for the plot and the beautiful art. Besides, Dragonslayer is much more fun than any realistic weapon  :casca:

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Guts's Lineage
« Reply #20 on: November 23, 2017, 10:55:17 PM »
What strikes me the most is the pletora of non-pratical helmets and the absurd lack of maille in most soldiers.

Most helmets and armors in Berserk, even the stranger ones, are based on historical items.