Is Griffith Evil?

typhonblue

Feminism--making the world safe for bigotry
What I find interesting about the debate over Griffith's character is that most of the people who find him evil would, in the right circumstance, sacrifice their own friends for a crust of bread. As Art Spiegelman puts it in Maus, "Friends? If you lock them together in a room with no food for a week...Then you could see what it is, friends!" (And I don't mean that as a personal slight, rather I mean that in a "law-of-averages" type of way.)

I mean, come on! The guy was tortured for a year, he has been completely striped of every peice of pride he had, he has nothing left and he's most likely going to die. Most people in the same circumstance would do exactly what he did.

In fact I have more respect for him because he-- unlike most people who talk of loyalty and friendship and then screw you over anyway-- was very up-front about his intentions. The Hawks chose to take the risk of dieing by being with him, and he never offered them anything more then a opportunity to further his dream. They chose. They chose to risk death to feel part of something bigger then themselves. No doubt Griffith felt he was not betraying them by not betraying his dream. That's what they pledged their lives too. In his mind if he stops, if he fails to achieve his dream, everyone who died before them will have died in vain and he will have to feel the regret of every death died in vain.

Yeah, it was a freaking awful way to die. But remember the God Hand told Griffith that the Hawks would forgive him. And also remember Griffith lived the hawks deaths. He felt them die.

As for Femento raping Casca... I still am not conviced it was entirely rape. I mean, I know she's just been worked over by all the freaky demons of Hell, but how hard is it to close your mouth and refuse to french the demonic overlord that's boning you? Trivial detail, perhaps. But baffling. Plus when Griffith tried to force himself on her the first time, she resisted for a bit then relented and held him to her. Forshadowing?

There's more going on between Griffith and Casca than Guts is party too. He's the clueless middleman in their post-Wyld, pre-eclipse power plays. I imagine Griffith made an advance on Casca to keep Guts and Casca selfishly convinced Guts to leave to have Griffith for herself. Of course knowing she was pregnant was the clincher for her; Go off with Guts, become an increasing impediment to his wandering until he either has to give up his dream or her and the child, or live a placid, safe, guaranteed life with Griffith. The man she still held a massive torch for.

Hmmm...
 
S

SoulCrasher

Guest
I agree. I wouldn't want to spend the rest of my life unable to talk or walk on my own again either. And just when he's lost all hope he gets a second chance. Hawks like Judeau admitted to wanting to serve Griffith, to risk death for his dream. I doubt those who stayed behind following Griffith's arrest and put themselves at the greatest risk did so for themselves. I'm sure that the Femto rape was rape, since she was pretty helpless and she ended up insane. And I hadn't considered that last part, that's an interesting observation, and that'd be a clever move on Griffith's part. It seemed that's what he wanted, when he hallucinated during the runaway horse and carriage chapter.
 

roberto999

The Black Chick of Darkness
typhonblue said:
Yeah, it was a freaking awful way to die. But remember the God Hand told Griffith that the Hawks would forgive him. And also remember Griffith lived the hawks deaths. He felt them die.
And he felt nothing. He himself admited it
Plus when Griffith tried to force himself on her the first time, she resisted for a bit then relented and held him to her. Forshadowing?
Or pity maybe?
The reason that I see Grifith like a evil creature IS NOT that he sacrificied the hawks, but instead the way that he is. That is a smiling beautiful devil that take advantage of you feigning to care.
 

SomeKindOfBlue

How, Caska? How could you not pounce this man?
Some things that bothers me in these debates is people saying:

1) "The Hawks were ready to die for Griffith's dream anyway, so he didn't REALLY do a bad thing when he sacrificed them..." (Or something vaguely along those lines)

Ok... then my question is: Why didn't they just walk up to the nearest demon and say "Hey, you, bite my head off so that Griffith can continue his dream!"
If they were so ready to die for him, why even bother to struggle? Why panic? Why fight?
And did the Hawks not have a right to live, just because they had chosen to risk death on the battlefield?
Or just because they had pledged loyalty to Griffith?


And 2) "Come on people! Griffith had been tortured for a YEAR! His mind was racked, his body broken, he had been broken, physically and mentally... If YOU had been in his position, you would have done the same thing!"

Uh... huh... Ok... Well, see, I have this really funky idea in my head... just a theory, really... I call it "If someone has commited a despicable act towards you, this does NOT make it okay for you to commit a despicable act against another."
I don't know, it might just be some silly notion, but... I've been trying to live it. Hrafnin Flöjur and all that...

And yes, I have done a lot of things in my life that I am not proud of. People have been hurt because of me. (Of course, I haven't actaully sacrificed everyone who ever trusted me to a hungry demon horde, but I have still done some pretty bad things.)
I have suffered the consequences as well. I have been punished and hurt in return - my bad deeds have come back at me, and I have accepted my guilt.
For christs sake, I still feel that guilt when I think about the things I have done.
...But Griffith, he gets off shot free. He doesn't even feel guilty - at least not by his own admission. He doesn't have to pay in any way

AND

People will even defend his actions!

......

...there just isn't any justice left in this world.
 
S

SoulCrasher

Guest
::) Of course the Hawks didnt want to die, like Griffith didn't want to give up on his dream. I wouldn't say Griffith's actions were justifiable, but I do understand what he must have been thinking when he chose to offer up the Hawks as sacrifices. "If someone has commited a despicable act towards you, this does NOT make it okay for you to commit a despicable act against another." So when Guts brutally killed the torturer, does that make him evil? I think Guts is pretty heartless himself. Only time I think he really regretted anything was in the Lost Children chapters after he saw the barn full of burning children (and I know he was crying once but I forget where), but later on he killed the rest of them anyway. One cannot say Guts' actions are understandable because of what happened to him without that logic applying to Griffith as well.
 

Mizar

Œ©‰Ž•·‚©‰ŽŒ¾‚퉎
SomeKindOfBlue, you're a woman after my heart. ;)

Here's a small real life story. Someone who is very dear to me personally has been suffering for over a year now from an uncurable disease, and is basically just as helpless now as Griffith was. She is in tremendous pain every single day of her life, and yet she wants to live on, she even still has some hope and joy left. But never would she wish me or others to suffer or die for her to be healthy again, never. And I really doubt that many people living in that condition would. It's their disease, their life, their problem (in their eyes). I have personally infinitely more respect for the strength those people show with the way they deal with their condition than for Griffith and his blind ambition. They all had lives and big dreams before as well, and they all shattered just like Griffith's.

So do I have any respect for Griffith? No. None. In the end he was just a weak and self-absorbed person who couldn't accept life the way it went for him. And he made others pay the ultimate price for that.
 

Oltobaz

Cancer no Deathmask
Femto indeed raped Caska.Doesn't mean the experience was ENTIRELY unpleasant to her,though...After all,she was just left a wreck of a woman,speechless,insane...no big deal,right?
 

typhonblue

Feminism--making the world safe for bigotry
I said most, not all, people would do the same in his place. And I respect him for being honest about his intentions. Most people would have it both ways, they'd want their friends to think of them as loyal and loving and sacrifice them anyway when the chips are down. Do I respect him for what he did? No. Do I understand why? YES. There is a difference. Griffith is not evil, he's just human. A weak human. Like 99% of us. And, from what I've seen of human nature, the people most quick to judge are also the people most likely to do exactly the same thing. It's like the Casca thread a while back, people are judging her against an almost impossible standard of strength and calling her weak. In the same way they're judging Griffith against an almost impossible standard of morality and calling him evil. In other words, how many people could have what happened to Griffith happen to them and then turn around and be all "love and joy" to the world? It takes someone with unbelievable strength of spirit and will.

If Hague is right and the next step in Griffith's character arc is to realize the worthlessness of his dream, then I look forward to the moment Griffith falls to Earth and has to deal with what he sacrificed in the name of nothing. And considering the set up during the eclipse it will be very painfull for him.

It's implied in the manga that Casca was driven insane by the evil spirits after the eclipse. She couldn't resist their possession as Guts could.

In my opinion the one admirable person in Berserk is Luca. It's a testament to Miura's skill as a writer that she still is a believable and flawed character.
 

SomeKindOfBlue

How, Caska? How could you not pounce this man?
So when Guts brutally killed the torturer, does that make him evil? I think Guts is pretty heartless himself. Only time I think he really regretted anything was in the Lost Children chapters after he saw the barn full of burning children (and I know he was crying once but I forget where), but later on he killed the rest of them anyway. You can't say Guts actions are understandable because of what happened to him without that logic applying to Griffith as well.

Yes, I fully agree with you. Gatts is no hero. Not in any way - he was as consumed by revenge as Griffith was/is by his dream. Did I ever try to justify Gatts' actions?
This is what makes Berserk so interesting for me:
1) Griffith should not get away with what he has done - it was a crime, practically mass murder - because it doesn't matter what he has been through or what he hoped to achieve --- REASON DOES NOT MAKE RIGHT!

2) Gatts cutting his head off with the dragonslayer/his bare hands is not the solution. It is not the best way the story could end - because revenge does not end. It goes on and on and on ad nauseam...

...and I can't for the life of me think of a good way for this story to end. Maybe Caska could kill Griffith, at least she could claim temporary insanity...

In other words, how many people could have what happened to Griffith happen to them and then turn around and be all "love and joy" to the world? It takes someone with unbelievable strength of spirit and will.

Like the sort of person Mizar knows? Those people exist all around us, too. I honestly, truly believe, from the bottom of my heart that those 99% weak human beings you spoke of, typhonblue, would not all choose the way Griffith did.
The human race is so much stronger than it thinks of itself. Being weak is EASY - being strong is the challenge we must try to live up to... and I think we'd be surprised to see how far we would get.

I believe in humanity. It's not easy all the time, but I really can't help it - I have seen too much strength to just accept humans as a weak and helpless people. (Which also happens to be my major problem with the LoTR movies, but that's completely off topic, so...)
 

Oltobaz

Cancer no Deathmask
typhonblue said:
It's implied in the manga that Casca was driven insane by the evil spirits after the eclipse. She couldn't resist their possession as Guts could.

It's actually the whole thing,the slaughter of her friends,her rape,the evil spirits...
 

typhonblue

Feminism--making the world safe for bigotry
SomeKindOfBlue said:
In other words, how many people could have what happened to Griffith happen to them and then turn around and be all "love and joy" to the world? It takes someone with unbelievable strength of spirit and will.

Like the sort of person Mizar knows? Those people exist all around us, too. I honestly, truly believe, from the bottom of my heart that those 99% weak human beings you spoke of, typhonblue, would not all choose the way Griffith did.

And the first step in my opinion is not to make scapegoats of others. To place the label "evil" on someone absolves the labeler of all responsibility to exaimine their *own* actions.

Look at the example of Luca (she's almost a direct parallel to Guts and represents the best that he could aspire to be) she never once blamed or accused Nina for being a coward. Why? Because Luca is not a coward herself.

The human race is so much stronger than it thinks of itself. Being weak is EASY - being strong is the challenge we must try to live up to... and I think we'd be surprised to see how far we would get.

I don't disagree with this. And I think this is essentially what Berserk is about. It's about the power and strength to be who you are without fear. Whatever that is.

I believe in humanity. It's not easy all the time, but I really can't help it - I have seen too much strength to just accept humans as a weak and helpless people. (Which also happens to be my major problem with the LoTR movies, but that's completely off topic, so...)

This is my major problem with the whole DS-forged-in-hatred-can-kill-god-hand plot twist. What kind of cop out is that? Guts is going to kill Griffith not through any personal strength of spirit but because he has a big, evil sword?

Gah!
 

Mizar

Œ©‰Ž•·‚©‰ŽŒ¾‚퉎
typhonblue said:
And the first step in my opinion is not to make scapegoats of others. To place the label "evil" on someone absolves the labeler of all responsibility to exaimine their *own* actions.

How's that so? If someone coldbloodedly rapes and kills my little sister you can be damn sure I will label the person that did that as 'evil', or at least something like 'a low life scumbag', you want to tell me I shouldn't do that? Now it's not all black and white and I'm not saying that all killing is per definition 'evil' or 'wrong', but what Griffith did obviously fits in the category of the 'low life scumbag' imo. He killed his men against their will and he violently raped Caska, it was not self-defense, it was in cold blood and it was only for his own selfish dream and desire. There is no justification for this, simple as that. Your argument that it takes away the responsibility of the labeler to examine its *own* actions if one labels this as 'evil' is a little silly imo. I will take responsibility for this right now and tell you people that if I ever do such a thing myself you are all free to label me as 'evil' or a 'lowlife scumbag'. Whatever you like best. ;)

Also, I have a really hard time to believe that in real life a completely crippled human being would ever be able to sacrifice his friends for his/her wish if given the chance. Actually, even less so than I would see completely healthy people doing that, because incurable diseases or terrible accidents often tend to radically change one's look on life, for instance life itself is not taken for granted anymore and you often see a much more sincere and selfless attitude arise within those people. They suddenly don't see themselves as all that important anymore, they are after all just fragile little humans like anyone else and just want to spend time with their family and friends and have a fun and good life. But as Guts would say they often only realize this when it's already too late.
 

typhonblue

Feminism--making the world safe for bigotry
Mizar said:
typhonblue said:
And the first step in my opinion is not to make scapegoats of others. To place the label "evil" on someone absolves the labeler of all responsibility to exaimine their *own* actions.

How's that so? If someone coldbloodedly rapes and kills my little sister you can be damn sure I will label the person that did that as 'evil', or at least something like 'a low life scumbag', you want to tell me I shouldn't do that?

Ah, the sticky problems of practical morality. So what do you do after you label the person as evil? Do you move on and never think of the matter again?

Now it's not all black and white and I'm not saying that all killing is per definition 'evil' or 'wrong', but what Griffith did obviously fits in the category of the 'low life scumbag' imo. He killed his men against their will and he violently raped Caska, it was not self-defense, it was in cold blood and it was only for his own selfish dream and desire. There is no justification for this, simple as that.

Read the manga again. It explictly states that Griffith can either sacrifice the hawks or join the mountain of bodies his ambition has piled up. Yes he did it in the name of his dream, but it was also an act of self preservation.

Your argument that it takes away the responsibility of the labeler to examine its *own* actions if one labels this as 'evil' is a little silly imo.

It's called projection. It's used to justify some henious acts.

"Let he without sin cast the first stone." :)

I will take responsibility for this right now and tell you people that if I ever do such a thing myself you are all free to label me as 'evil' or a 'lowlife scumbag'. Whatever you like best. ;)

Why would I do that? I've always had a hard time seeing anyone as evil. No matter what they do to me or others. And the evil I do see is mostly a reflection of some ugly part of me.

Also, I have a really hard time to believe that in real life a completely crippled human being would ever be able to sacrifice his friends for his/her wish if given the chance. Actually, even less so than I would see completely healthy people doing that, because incurable diseases or terrible accidents often tend to radically change one's look on life, for instance life itself is not taken for granted anymore and you often see a much more sincere and selfless attitude arise within those people.

Hmmm... I guess you know different critically ill/handicapped people then me. From what I've observed they remain pretty individual. And respond individually to what's happened to them.

And to conclude, I'd like to present an example of true evil now spreading in Asia:

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/China/EE03Ad01.html
 

Oltobaz

Cancer no Deathmask
They say you can't tell if one's life was a happy one or not,a good one or not,before it's finished.Griffith still hangs around.
 

roberto999

The Black Chick of Darkness
typhonblue said:
It's called projection. It's used to justify some henious acts.

"Let he without sin cast the first stone." :)


Why would I do that? I've always had a hard time seeing anyone as evil. No matter what they do to me or others. And the evil I do see is mostly a reflection of some ugly part of me.
Truly our Lord was speaking about a prostitute that was to be stoned to death for her profession then and what He did mean was : "Those among you that have never bedded her, have the right to stone her." Evidently she was much popular and had many costumers because none did toss a stone.
If you don't see anyone like evil, you cannot see anyone like good as well. The two things are the two faces of the same coin.One cannot exist without the other.It is like the concept of Yin and Yang.Like I said it is not the hawks' sacrifice that had me to see Grifith like evil. It is his life before that when he was the respected commander of the hawks and you will see it too if you don't stop to the smiling appearences and beautiful words and look closely to the real reasons of anything he did back then. I don't think Grifith will ever repent of what he did. He has a weakness true, but it is not that one.
 

SomeKindOfBlue

How, Caska? How could you not pounce this man?
Okay, I have another point to make.

I have never said that I consider Griffith "evil".

Simply stated, I do not believe in the concepts "good" or "evil". They are ideas and theories, but not really applicable to the real world - and thus, because Miura is so damn good at presenting his world as a real one, they are not applicable to the berserk universe either.

He is, however, as Mizar suggested, a lowlife scumbag. And what I cry out against is all these people who go "Griffith's not a bad person because of this and that".
Yes he is.
Just because he's human - a flawed human being, just like the rest of us - doesn't make his betrayal of all the people who trusted him justified or even remotely the right thing to do.
And if you've done the wrong thing - you are a bad person. No matter what reasons you had.

Reason does not make right.

If it was weakness (which I believe it was) and not his shrewd, evil, twisted plan all along, that got him to sacrifice the Hawks, then he is a weak person too.
Okay, in the same situation, I might have done the same thing (I don't know, I've never been there), but I would SURE AS FUCK regret it. As in "I would have it undone in a heartbeat if I got the choice".
I strive to be a strong person and do the right thing. That is the person I want to be - therefore I respect strong people, while weak and utterly selfish people like Griffith will only deserve my contempt.

Because if I was like them, I would hold myself in contempt.

At least Gatts has the strength and courage to try to be a better man and try to change his destiny. He has my respect for this - he realises his flaws and at least tries to overcome them.

Ahhh... in conclusion:
No, Griffith is not evil. He's just a despicable person.
Good and evil does not exist in reality, but the highly subjective concepts of right and wrong does.
Killing hundreds of people to preserve one is wrong, no matter how you put it.

And these are all just my opinions - you are all entitled to your own, should they differ from mine.
 

typhonblue

Feminism--making the world safe for bigotry
roberto999 said:
Truly our Lord was speaking about a prostitute that was to be stoned to death for her profession then and what He did mean was : "Those among you that have never bedded her, have the right to stone her." Evidently she was much popular and had many costumers because none did toss a stone.

My appologies for seeing a bible quote as a metaphor for a greater spiritual truth rather than solely a description of a single situation. ;D

If you don't see anyone like evil, you cannot see anyone like good as well.

Bingo. Everyone is selfish. It's an unavoidable fact in the flesh realm. It's how people approach their selfishness that distinguishes them.

Like I said it is not the hawks' sacrifice that had me to see Grifith like evil. It is his life before that when he was the respected commander of the hawks and you will see it too if you don't stop to the smiling appearences and beautiful words and look closely to the real reasons of anything he did back then. I don't think Grifith will ever repent of what he did. He has a weakness true, but it is not that one.

He will never repent until he looses faith in his dream. Because his dream justifies all that he's done.
 

ShinHell9

I started on here when I was like 14...
Evil is too grandiose of a term, no sane human is evil, if he was evil he:
Would've killed guts, caska, and rickert the second he saw them in vol 22. So by my definition he is not evil, is he wrong? possibly, but i don't judge peoples way of lives.
 

SomeKindOfBlue

How, Caska? How could you not pounce this man?
Hey, hey don't let this thread die, I want more debate on this!

And I want to know why so many berserk fans keeps defending Griffith's actions.

Oh, and ShinHell, I absolutely try to judge people, as long as they are ficional characters in a story I'm enjoying - it makes for a much more interesting reading experience IMO.
 
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Genn21

Guest
:D , girffiths not to bad hes just knocking out the chess peices in the way of his dream and gathering power up on his side to acheive it anyway he can
 

Amadeus

When dark and mysterious goes wrong... BE AFRAID!!
Griffith? He's just a weak selfish bastard. Evil? Nah, to grand a word for him. It seriously wasn't a dream worth persuing anyway.

Also, I can't say I really admire Gatsu either. In fact, he may turn out to be just like Griffith. I mean, He's running around, swinging his sword at all those who get in the way of his vengence (Not counting the interesting new team he's aquired). However, if put in the situation, I don't think he would be able to sacrafice Caska (or whoever) in return for the power to kill Griffith, and this may only be because he knows what it's like, not nesicarily because he's more 'human'. If Griffith is evil, what does that make Gatsu? Most certainly not good. They've both killed innocents for their own selfish reasons, Gatsu just has yet to turn on those who trust him.

Ahhh well. They're both dispicable people, they were simply put into different situations (And I like Gatsu ten billion times more. Unfotunantly I can't justify why. I just do, so there --nyah nyah--)

No good, no evil, no black, nor white. Simply different shades of gray.

~*Amadeus*~
 
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Genn21

Guest
??? i wouldnt call griffiths ambitions stupid just only limited to what humans can acomplish, if he had half the idea that godhand existed before the eclipse i can say without a doubt he probally wouldve expanded his ambitions a little wider ( that would involve not spanking charlottes monkey ) hes not evil tho if your basis is bad intentions, & wicked ambitions for one mans life, but if you wanna spend all day with your consideration of evil as darkness, monsters , blah blah , child killers , vampires, guys who have a hard time at school and decide to play urban warrior sure ya you can join the rest of the 56% ignorant dingdongs out there and call him a wicked evil man without a second thought ( i call that stuff stupid )

all of Griffithsu's bad deeds were done in the name of redeeming himself higher qualitys to controll the fate of the world under 1 grand empire like a hand of god... (scary) a consideration of evil i would use in this case is bad intentions and wicked ambitions for life without thought of any consequences considerary to your actions being used for positive social results :p

btw.. guttsu represents all of what our basic concepts of evil are when using the simplest of thought without deep reasoning to it, and that is what makes him so damn badass mr amadeus (your name has a cool song that goes with it if you ever checked out its orgions and relations)
 

Amadeus

When dark and mysterious goes wrong... BE AFRAID!!
Genn21 said:
(your name has a cool song that goes with it if you ever checked out its orgions and relations)

Actually, Amadeus was Motzart's middle name: Wolfgang Amadeus Motart.

And well, I'll just say, yeahh... No good, no bad, everyone's just a little messed up in the head, and therefore, do some stupid things. ^_^ That's all there is to it.

~*Amadeus*~
 
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