The Cage Match between Free Will and Determinism

Bloody Needle

I'm a llama!
Berserk is filled with the language of determinism: it is a continual current in the speech and thinking of the characters that events are foreordained, from prophecies to throwaway insults. It is in this medium that Gatts is the "jumping fish" -- regardless of the sense of overwhelmingness, he struggles against what others succumb to. His brand itself is the simplest symbol of this conflict of poles: it is literally the mark of the unavoidable, the inevitable, yet it's concrete declaration is made lie ever day that Gatts survives.

The discussions of Idea and the God Hand touch upon the idea that certain events are foreordained because of the manipulation of causality. The Skull Knight reinforces this the concept in his extended speech to Gatts about the moon's reflection upon water (In "Evil Road 2"). As does the entire mythos surrounding Griffith's life and "rise" to Femto...the continued implication that his charisma and success are foregone conclusions, irresistable, etc.; the declaration by Idea (or was it Void?) that Griffith's circumstances and nature were the product of careful tailoring and tending of lines of blood and events.

So...

Idea is Divinity conceptualized by men, a sort of gestalt that exhibits a meta-consciousness. It's existence is explicitly defined by human conceptions of what they want from a Supreme Being...which apparently, sum toto, turns out to be pretty Lowest Common Denominator, hence nasty. On one level, Idea as "God" is the scapegoat explanation for true randomness. But Idea's core (on self-report) is the provision of structure and logic to the chaotic, negative events that comprise human experience. In a horribly literal fulfilment of its designated function, it is also the active provider of pain, horror, death, etc., thus bringing a perverse structure to humanity's sense of Life and Its Purpose. It's like the difference between letting a chunk of metal rust on it's own and pouring an oxidizing agent on it to make it rust on the spot...cutting the Gordian Knot rather than waiting for it to rot. Idea has solved the issue of random horror in human experience by creating a supernatural infrastructure to implement well-organized horror in human existence. This goal is not merely a program running, but a form of self-preservation: Idea is assembled from faith, unconscious and conscious, and it is in its interest to encourage belief in itself...which is mostly easily maintained by obtaining, if not a monopoly over causality, then a sense in the collective consciosness of mankind that it pervades and regulates the whole.

Idea is powerful, but neither omnipotent nor omniscient...it is both imbued and constrained by it assembly from human thought. Idea's perspective and mission is constrained to human concerns. Nature thrives on stochasticity's interaction with slow-developing, adaptable structure, and Idea devotes no energy to the interruption of that process. Yet Idea ruthlessly guards the intersection of Man and Nature, stamping out the interconnection of the two implicit in animistic, shamanic/"witch-y" modes of thought (i.e. Flora, and the more general worship of natural and elemental spirits).

Idea's purpose necessitates the removal of randomness and the substitution of structure: hence Idea devotes time and energy to the creation of agents suited to the task of monopolizing causality. It's an admittedly circular way of looking, but if Idea really were all-powerful, there'd be no need for it to delegate, nor any contestation of the path of events by pesky interlopers such as Gatts. On its own, Idea works by the nudging threads of events here and there. The establishment of a causal monopoly, though, requires more immediate and blatant methods of control.

The God Hand are named quite literally: they are the fingers manipulating the elements of the world to enforce Idea's programme: extrusions of Idea's meta-self designed explicitly to act as a lens for perceiving and controlling the totality of causality, and thus the totality of Idea. Their function is to trim the branches of causality with greater efficiency than Idea can; limiting random events such that the extrapolations of possible outcomes are narrowed to a trickle of probable outcomes. Their powers and command of fundamental forces that influence humans means that causality narrows down to the trickle: plagues and disasters are not products of meteorology and bacteriology, but of individual whims.

In the same vein, one can look at the way the Apostles end up being epicenters of causality in moment-to-moment human events. Their supernatural strength and longevity means that they become de facto societal forces, influencing culture, war, or just body counts. Furthermore, their shared behavioral traits ensure a continuous level of active disruption of "normal" life process: between the violence, sadism, lust, etc., Apostles are neither likely to take down time, nor to simply languish unnoticed. The proliferation and circulation of Apostles means that the lives that they "touch" -- and the ones they end -- are spokes about their causal hub, rather than agents of possibility in their own right.
 

Graywords

Bettychu, I choose YOU!
You have a lovely, eloquent, well-thought-out collection of ideas here. ^_^

Sadly I still have no idea how to reply to it. I'll think about it for a while... o.o
 

Griffith

With the streak of a tear, Like morning dew
Indeed, very good, haven't seen something like this in a while. I'm in the same boat as Graywords though. Probably why I gave up on long, thought out posts long ago. =)

Still great to read one though.

-Griffith
 
Bloody Needle said:
Heh. Thanks.

I just wanted to get that off my chest, but I don't know any other Berserk readers IRL to bounce ideas off of.

Well, are u a lawyer? I didnt quite understand what r u talking about
 

Grifth

ZOMBIES they are everywere ....
wow that really sums up the whole reason for the god hand and the apostles and idea well i can see where u are going whit it we dont need him he needs us rigth?
 

typhonblue

Feminism--making the world safe for bigotry
Bloody Needle said:
Idea is Divinity conceptualized by men, a sort of gestalt that exhibits a meta-consciousness. It's existence is explicitly defined by human conceptions of what they want from a Supreme Being...which apparently, sum toto, turns out to be pretty Lowest Common Denominator, hence nasty. On one level, Idea as "God" is the scapegoat explanation for true randomness. But Idea's core (on self-report) is the provision of structure and logic to the chaotic, negative events that comprise human experience. In a horribly literal fulfilment of its designated function, it is also the active provider of pain, horror, death, etc., thus bringing a perverse structure to humanity's sense of Life and Its Purpose. It's like the difference between letting a chunk of metal rust on it's own and pouring an oxidizing agent on it to make it rust on the spot...cutting the Gordian Knot rather than waiting for it to rot. Idea has solved the issue of random horror in human experience by creating a supernatural infrastructure to implement well-organized horror in human existence. This goal is not merely a program running, but a form of self-preservation: Idea is assembled from faith, unconscious and conscious, and it is in its interest to encourage belief in itself...which is mostly easily maintained by obtaining, if not a monopoly over causality, then a sense in the collective consciosness of mankind that it pervades and regulates the whole.

What I find interesting about Idea is its rise in relation to the Church. Perhaps Muira intended Idea to parallel the Old Testamont God of wrath and punishment.

All of Berserk's themes are "serch for God." Some cleverly disguised as such for self. Or search for a father's love.
 

kimchan

"Should I be overcome by the vapors?
Smith said:
Well, are u a lawyer? I didnt quite understand what r u talking about

There's a surprise. ::)


Anyway, excellent post Bloody Needle, welcome to the board. ^_^
 

Mizar

Œ©‰Ž•·‚©‰ŽŒ¾‚퉎
typhonblue said:
All of Berserk's themes are "serch for God." Some cleverly disguised as such for self. Or search for a father's love.

Why exactly do you think all of Berserk themes are about "the search for God"? Isn't that a little too simplistic viewing of the manga? Spiritualism and indeed the "search for the self" seems to play a far greater role in Berserk, I don't see what that all has to do with some search for God really.


PS: And why are you making so many spelling errors all of a sudden, are you just drunk or are you trying to draw the attention of Makkuro? ;)
 

typhonblue

Feminism--making the world safe for bigotry
Mizar said:
Why exactly do you think all of Berserk themes are about "the search for God"? Isn't that a little too simplistic viewing of the manga? Spiritualism and indeed the "search for the self" seems to play a far greater role in Berserk, I don't see what that all has to do with some search for God really.
As far as I'm concerned everything is a search for self, thus the "Father", thus God.

It's all very Fruedian. Guts is a boy searching for his father (metaphorically, not literally); Griffith is a boy who wants to become a Father figure. In other words Guts is searching for someone to tell him who he is; Griffith is searching to find out for himself who he is.

I suppose its Jungian as well: Father = selfhood (God), Mother = collective unconsious(Nature). Guts did have a mother's love while he was young, but never a father's, which ties into his desire to find someone to "look over him", nudge him in the right direction, while he finds himself.

Unfortunately, niether Guts nor Griffith could be what the other needed, because they were both searching. Desperation leaves no room for apology or flexibility.

PS: And why are you making so many spelling errors all of a sudden, are you just drunk or are you trying to draw the attention of Makkuro? ;)

Oh. Heh heh. That was just the poppers talking. Or I could have been trying to draw Makkuro's grammatical wrath to me as a subconscious attempt at flirting.
 

SexyCharlotte

All those who wander are not always lost
Getting deeper into this....

I don't think Berserk has anything to do with the search for God. Meaning of existence perhaps, but not God. That was certainly a very well thought-out and philosophical post. It can also be used to argue whether 'Griffith was evil or not.' Was he simply acting upon his destiny, something preordained ( predestination as John Calvin, founder of the Calvinist sect of Protestantism) by God Hand, or did his conscious decision set the wheels in motion for a different outcome?

I think there has to be a 'somewhere in between' fate, destiny, and free will. In some ways, perhaps, like a roadmap, we are standing on a crossroads. But which paths we take...some wrong, some right, are entirely up to us.

LG
 

Bloody Needle

I'm a llama!
Free Will and Evil in the Berserk Setting

There's a wonderful line from the novel "The Master & Margarita" by Mikhail Bulgakov, aptly enough put forward by the author's own, very human representation of Christ. In the bizarre novel-within-a-novel that ti the center of Bulgakov's plot, Yeshua (and Aramaic rendering of Jesus) states that there are no evil men...up to and including the sadistic, deformed giant who just beat him bloody at a whim...only unhappy ones. This phrase doesn't mesh well with Berserk, but it gives us a fulcrum.

Idea and the God Hand pull strings to make key players dance. The "deus ex machina" movements of Beherit suggest precisely to what degree things are rigged: the Eggs are in the right place, at the right time, when the right conflux of circumstances has collided with the past experiences -- hence worldview -- of the Beherit carrier in such a very particular mindset that the carrier activates the egg with a willingness to make a terrible sacrifice. Using a Beherit is not simply an act of will, but a sort of ritual, ultimate expression of selfishness and unhappiness. In the range of Apostles we have seen, the pivot of their transformation has not been some archetypal evil intent, but rather lividly human feelings of fear, anger, and confusion. The transformation of an Apostle is an moment of weakness before it is a moment of damnation.

Quite likely the lives of Beherit carriers are impressed in other ways by the God Hand: their traumas, their defining events, and that distinctively universal moment at which their whole world crumbles, are likely engineered. The God Hand are not total masters of causality, but can nonetheless greatly narrow the field of possible outcomes of a targetted person's life, stacking odds in favor of an outcome favorable to their agenda.

The entire process of receiving and activating a Beherit is engineered to place the subject in a situation where acceptance is the best option: time and time again we see people's worlds [and subsequently, selves] utterly crumble, only to have the God Hand offer them their dreams anew at such a relatively small price. Both emotive and rhetorical logic dictate acceptance; the dangling carrot of achievement of a dream is too much.

It is in this moment that Free Will exists, in spite of the tailoring and honing done by the God Hand: this act is the denial of reasoning...the leap of saying "no" in spite of the webs of logic and affect that say "yes." It is to act out of love, or altruism, or to be motivated by faith in something beyond what is presented. Idea and the God Hand can lead up the precipice, can plan every step, but the final stride is a choice.

In Christianity, the Doctrine of Free Will reflects that true faith in God by nature contradicts evidence and reasoning for faith in God. One believes: one does not believe "because".... Faith is not a utility, and when thought of as a tool of self-integrity it is hollow. Miura seems to perversely invert this model: Free Will in Berserk is the contradiction of the reasons and the "because" put forward by the proxy "God" and his "agents." The siren song of the Beherit is the sense that the desired justifies the means, that ones "deserves" at the cost of others.

The complementary miracle of Gatts is the self-containment of his faith: it is not that he struggles for an externalized idea, but for a sense of the integrity of himself. It is the elevation of the saw "believe in yourself" to a metaphilosophical level.

Another way of looking at it is the final (in)action of the snail-like Apostle Count: in spite of his past, in spite of his grisly nature and the factual horror of his existence as an Apostle, he refuses to sacrifice his daughter for himself. This is the exercise of Free Will at its most pure and simple. It is the transcendence of Sense and Self, of qualifiers and reasons. It is a leap of faith.

I'm tired. I want to fit the idea of Griffithas good and/or evil in here, but I'll do it later. In fact, I'm tempted to set up a sort of "psychologist's couch" to deal with Griffith in a gestalt fashion, maybe over in the character section.
 
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