Author Topic: 10 Commandments in Alabama?  (Read 16465 times)

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medievald00d

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10 Commandments in Alabama?
« on: August 31, 2003, 04:50:10 AM »
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/wnt/US/tencommandments030827_moore.html

What are your thoughts?

As an athiest/Pagan/nonbeliever/heathen (take your pick), i believe that this is a direct violation of the seperation of Church and state amendment (amendment or law, i forget what it is exactly, i'll look it up later). Anyways, i believe that those 10 commandments put in the Alabama courthouse is unconstitutional and against the basis of this country.

I see the judge that put it up there a bit like some of the more religious fanatics in berserk, like mozgus, the anti-magic priest, etc.


Anyways, what do you guys think?

Offline Majin Tenshi

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Re:10 Commandments in Alabama?
« Reply #1 on: August 31, 2003, 05:04:47 AM »

>>>UNDER GOD<<< was added during the cold war, or so I've heard...

Let’s see, I'm almost willing to compromise.  Hack of the first few and maybe I'd let them be.  But I'm sure those close-minded Neanderthals wouldn't be willing to do that...

'Course, I suffer a state that removed Evolution from the required school cirrocumuli a couple years ago (its back now but still...)
Ok, so I leave and come back....

medievald00d

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Re:10 Commandments in Alabama?
« Reply #2 on: August 31, 2003, 05:13:33 AM »
I'm also willing to compromise. If they put the creed/commandments of the 10 most worshipped religions in the world into that court house, I'd be ok. After all, as long as it says "There is no god but Allah, and his prophet is muhammed" next to "Thou shalt not worship false idols", i would be happy. After all you gotta respect all the religions... ::)

Offline kimchan

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Re:10 Commandments in Alabama?
« Reply #3 on: August 31, 2003, 03:00:06 PM »
I think it's a ridiculous fight.  I don't understand why people feel the need to plaster the ten commandments on everything (I already see them posted in people's yards and in my classrooms.  Damn small town.   ::) )
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Offline himura_kenshin

Re:10 Commandments in Alabama?
« Reply #4 on: August 31, 2003, 04:38:55 PM »
hmm...? i haven't seen ten commandments in anyone's yard where i live *shrug* anway, i guess i'm not sure what i think about it being a monument in a courthouse. I kinda look at that sort of thing as historical, 'cause America was mostly founded by Christians. And Christianity was a large part of American culture for a long time and kind of still is. Anyway, i'm not completely supporting the monument, i'm just giving a reason why i'm not sure or don't mind.

Quote
Let’s see, I'm almost willing to compromise.  Hack of the first few and maybe I'd let them be.  But I'm sure those close-minded Neanderthals wouldn't be willing to do that...

'Course, I suffer a state that removed Evolution from the required school cirrocumuli a couple years ago (its back now but still...)


Ok, i'd much rather see it taken down that hack off the first few, heh. (I'm a Christian, btw) Having it there, doesn't really bother me, having it taken down because of separation of church and state, wouldn't really bother me. Having a monument to the seven commandments, yeah i don't care to see that, just like i don't care to see "In God we kinda trust sometimes." on a quarter. And maybe I'm misunderstanding here, but it seems to me you are criticizing the removal of evolution from the required cirriculum. Ok, it's wrong to put a monument to the 10 commandments in a public building where pagans/athiests whatever can see it, but it's OK to blatantly tell Christian students that their religion is wrong as part of a required cirriculum!? Furthermore test them on their ability to verify that they're wrong on paper for grades. Not only do i think evolution should be removed from requried ciricullum, i think the issue should be avoided altogether unless creationism can be offered as alternative education. Let's be fair here, right?
« Last Edit: August 31, 2003, 04:42:19 PM by himura_kenshin »

Offline MangyKid Ver.4.5

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Re:10 Commandments in Alabama?
« Reply #5 on: August 31, 2003, 04:43:41 PM »
I'd be willing to care if this mattered, but when it comes right down to it, does it matter? The judge would still believe the same thing, and being religious wouldn't hurt a judge's ability to, well, judge. So what's the problem? I can't see one and I'm the least religious person I know.
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Offline Majin Tenshi

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Re:10 Commandments in Alabama?
« Reply #6 on: August 31, 2003, 05:09:51 PM »
Having a monument to the seven commandments, yeah i don't care to see that, just like i don't care to see "In God we kinda trust sometimes." on a quarter.
 "in god we trust" doesn't belong there either...  Its not as bad though, since its more generic.  The 10 comandments are specificly Judeo-Christian.  "In god we trust" at least includes all religions with a single god, and since it doesn't "promote" a single religion family, its not nearly as bad.  

What would you have taught in school?  The government can not legaly use any religion's creation myth, so they go with the scientific explanation that has the greatest acceptance.  Evolution doesn't severly contridict Creationism anyways.  The only effect it has is saying how species change through the generations.  It has nothing to do with the origins of life.  
« Last Edit: August 31, 2003, 05:11:27 PM by Majin Tenshi »
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medievald00d

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Re:10 Commandments in Alabama?
« Reply #7 on: August 31, 2003, 06:12:20 PM »
1. It is ok to have them in yards and homes. Its private property, you can hang voodoo dolls in your yard if you want...
2.Placing the 10 commandments in schools or courthouses is illegal. While it seems ok to you, it probably would NOT be ok if someone put up muslim teachings there.
3. Actually its "in God we trust". IF you want to be technical, "God" only refers to Catholic Christians.
      a.Jews write "God" out as "G-d" because its blasphemous to spell out the name of god.
      b.Muslims write "Allah" in stead of god, so we can assume the "God" doesnt referr to either muslims or Jews.
      c. Deism believes in an impersonal god, therefore spells god out as "god", and not "God" (for those of you who dont recognize the difference, the G is lowercase)
4. Religion is kept out of schools and courthouses for simple reasons.
      a.In schools, religion can be taught in an impersonal way, but as soon as someone begins to teach a religion in a worshipful way, it can offend other religions (those of you in the south may think of this as stupid, as there are only christians in your town, but in CA, there is a wide diversity of religions in my school).
       b. As for courthouses, It may start simply with the 10 commandments. Then it may actually move on to real laws. THAT is why we keep religion out of state. If you were muslim, how would you like to be sentenced to death because you "worship a false idol"?


Ah yes, and one more thing. The great thing about this country is that religion isnt shoved down your throat. Thats why we keep it out of schools and state affairs. Sure, you can worship whatever god you worship, but you can do that in your own house. When we bring Christianity into the courts and into the schools, we slowly become as bad as the muslims who oppress in the Middle East. Anyways, our founding fathers wanted it this way, so I want it this way.

Offline Bok Choy

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Re:10 Commandments in Alabama?
« Reply #8 on: August 31, 2003, 06:33:44 PM »
Creationism isn't science; if you consider it to be science then I suggest re-reading the definition or concept of science.  Science is a methodology; your hypothesis is either proved or disproved through a series of observational experiements.  The same cannot be said of creationism.  If one wishes to propose creationism as a theory, then do so in a theology class.  This theory has no place in a science classroom.

Here are some reasons to why creationism isn't science:

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/cre-error.html

Oh, and your assertion that evolution contradicts Christianity... then, why do many Christians (including the vast  majority of Christian scientists) accept evolutionary theory?  Here's a good passage describing this supposed "conflict" from talkorigins.org:

"There are two parts to creationism. Evolution, specifically common descent, tells us how life came to where it is, but it does not say why. If the question is whether evolution disproves the basic underlying theme of Genesis, that God created the world and the life in it, the answer is no. Evolution cannot say exactly why common descent chose the paths that it did.

If the question is whether evolution contradicts a literal interpretation of the first chapter of Genesis as an exact historical account, then it does. This is the main, and for the most part only, point of conflict between those who believe in evolution and creationists...

First let me repeat that the underlying theme of the first book of Genesis can't be scientifically proven or disproven. No test has ever been found that can tell the difference between a universe created by God, and one that appeared without Him. Only certain interpretations of Genesis can be disproven.

Second, let us turn the question around. What if I asked you "If the story of the prodigal son didn't really happen, then is the whole Bible wrong?" Remember that the Bible is a collection of both stories and historical accounts. Because one part is a figurative story does not make the entire Bible so. Even if it did, the underlying message of the Bible would remain."


And the supposed "scientists" defending creationism?

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/credentials.html

Have you ever studied evolution in an unbiased, non-religious manner?  As Majin stated, evolution doesn't contradict Christian teachings; only religious zealots assert that.  Despite what the fundamentalists say, evolution is a sound theory supported by the vast majority of the scientific community.

It's fucking hilarious how creationists say the same, tired old shit over and over again.  If you're going to slander a theory or concept, try to be more creative.  Creationists still spout off the nonsense that evolution is about humans coming from monkeys.  Evolutionists have never claimed this fact; instead, humans and monkeys have diverged from a common ancestor.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2003, 06:39:22 PM by Bok Choy [Stir-fried with Rice] »
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medievald00d

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Re:10 Commandments in Alabama?
« Reply #9 on: August 31, 2003, 06:43:30 PM »
to add on to bok choy, There have been scientific tests to prove evolution. A few years ago, some scientists found 2 different types of guppies in the wild. One type, had a predator called Killifish, which preyed on small guppies. the other type, had a predator called a Pike-cichlid, which preyed on large guppies. What happened? type one guppies were larger than type 2 guppies, and type 2 guppies had sex when they were small (because when they got bigger, they were eaten)

They switched the guppies predators, and over 11 years, (or 30-60 generations) they found that type 1 had turned into type 2, and vice versa. Thus, proving evolution through experimentation.

Offline Makkuro

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Re:10 Commandments in Alabama?
« Reply #10 on: August 31, 2003, 06:57:27 PM »
And maybe I'm misunderstanding here, but it seems to me you are criticizing the removal of evolution from the required cirriculum. Ok, it's wrong to put a monument to the 10 commandments in a public building where pagans/athiests whatever can see it, but it's OK to blatantly tell Christian students that their religion is wrong as part of a required cirriculum!? Furthermore test them on their ability to verify that they're wrong on paper for grades. Not only do i think evolution should be removed from requried ciricullum, i think the issue should be avoided altogether unless creationism can be offered as alternative education. Let's be fair here, right?

Yes, we must remove everything that goes against any religion from all schools! So what if future generations will be at a pre-schooler's level when they're middle aged, it's all worth it to keep from hurting people's feelings. Let's be fair here, right?

Offline MangyKid Ver.4.5

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Re:10 Commandments in Alabama?
« Reply #11 on: August 31, 2003, 10:14:15 PM »
You already have to swear on the bible in court anyway, and they're not MAKING you read, or even LOOK at the fucking commandments, so who gives a shit? It's just as much his right in free speech to put what he wants where he wants, as it is for us to not want to see it. or something like that.
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medievald00d

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Re:10 Commandments in Alabama?
« Reply #12 on: August 31, 2003, 10:31:59 PM »
Well, it IS on the front steps, engraved as a monument....thats pretty much making you look at it. And it IS illegal to put something like that on public property. You dont see people placing Communist flags or other things in courthouses do you? Why not? ITS ILLEGAL.

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Re:10 Commandments in Alabama?
« Reply #13 on: August 31, 2003, 10:45:34 PM »
Actually, yes, but it was the confederate flag. They have them all over in the south. There was some stuff about it on the news once, apparently some people didn't like it, but they couldn't do anything because of freedom of speech. I think it was at a school, too.

And now I know what you're talking about, I saw that on the news a while ago too. Are we allowed to have crosses and stars of davids on chuches and houses? yes. Could people find them just as offensive there as anywhere else? yes, maybe even more so. Do you find the ten commandments plaque offensive in any way other than that it could potentially offend someone who doesn't understand that they could just ignore it? I think not. C'mon people, how could this possibly bother you? The only way this could bother you is if you're some kind of aryan who wants everyone else to be like you. Personally, I'd just let them have their stupid fucking plaque and their stupid fucking beliefs, and they can just leave me alone and save everyone else time.
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medievald00d

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Re:10 Commandments in Alabama?
« Reply #14 on: August 31, 2003, 10:50:22 PM »
Its the 10 commandments. In the south, its Christian dominated, so no one gives a shit. Heres what I'm saying. Put up "There is no god but Allah, and Muhammad is his prophet" and engrave it into a monument and put it in a courthouse. THEN see what the reaction is. They are both equally illegal, but see which one gets more protesting. No one in the south cares because they're Christian, but religion is a touchy thing. People would be taking sledge hammers to that monument if it were Muslim or Jewish.

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Re:10 Commandments in Alabama?
« Reply #15 on: August 31, 2003, 11:00:51 PM »
I see what you're saying, but it wouldn't bother me. And it shouldn't bother anybody, really. They should write under it "If you complain about this plaque, we'll beat the piss out of you... with a stick" too. I don't think it should be there, but I also don't think anybody should care, either. Bigger fish to fry, people. try tolerance.
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medievald00d

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Re:10 Commandments in Alabama?
« Reply #16 on: August 31, 2003, 11:03:33 PM »
yea tolerance would be if you placed something from every religion there, or pulled the 10 commandments out. Your choice.

Offline MangyKid Ver.4.5

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Re:10 Commandments in Alabama?
« Reply #17 on: August 31, 2003, 11:07:00 PM »
Or just ignored it. it's their choice to put it there, and if someone put some muslim thing somewhere they went, they'd have to put up with it. Who's taking this dude to court anyway?
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medievald00d

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Re:10 Commandments in Alabama?
« Reply #18 on: August 31, 2003, 11:16:29 PM »
The supreme court ordered it to be taken down, the Judge refused. Thats another thing the Judge is breaking the law by not taking it down, and people are supporting him.

Offline MangyKid Ver.4.5

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Re:10 Commandments in Alabama?
« Reply #19 on: August 31, 2003, 11:22:55 PM »
who really cares? It's not my business, but I think the whole thing's ridiculous. Well, I gotta go tear down some churches, someone might find them offensive. Guess they can't swear on the bible anymore, so we'll replace that with a rock that says "holy thing" on it. They can pretend it's whatever is holy to them! Then we'll not put the word god anywhere, I guess if you want to say god you can say "toenail". At least kids can't pray in school now, because obviously they aren't allowed to believe what they want because someone else might not believe it.

Have some motherfucking balls, people.
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medievald00d

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Re:10 Commandments in Alabama?
« Reply #20 on: August 31, 2003, 11:28:02 PM »
lol, you can pray wherever you want. Churches are places of worship. Praying in school is fine. Forced prayer in PUBLIC school is NOT fine, and was a common practice in the early 20th century. Now, you have to go to a private religious school for forced prayer. We still have clubs like CCF on campus, but such things are OPTIONAL. Personally, I think swearing on the bible is unconstitutional, but nothing we can really do about that.

The reason why this is such a big deal is because religion (namely christianity) is slowly creeping into state affairs. This is a bad thing. This country is ruled by laws, not men.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2003, 11:30:00 PM by medievald00d »

Offline MangyKid Ver.4.5

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Re:10 Commandments in Alabama?
« Reply #21 on: August 31, 2003, 11:41:53 PM »
Huh? I remember in school a muslim girl brought her bible thing to school and had to keep it in her bookbag because of the no prayer in school thing.

I don't think it's such a big deal, but whatever. If you want to enforce some stuff that nobody really believes go on ahead. It's your perogative.
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Offline Majin Tenshi

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Re:10 Commandments in Alabama?
« Reply #22 on: September 01, 2003, 12:14:28 AM »
Huh? I remember in school a muslim girl brought her bible thing to school and had to keep it in her bookbag because of the no prayer in school thing.
 Which they shouldn't be able to do since its illegal to have organized prayer in school, but private prayer isn't a problem.

Oh, perhaps I should mention that its illegal to sell alcohol on Sunday in Kansas.  Another one of those failings in the whole seperation of church and state.  
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Offline Vampire_Hunter_Bob

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Re:10 Commandments in Alabama?
« Reply #23 on: September 01, 2003, 12:21:18 AM »
Praying in school is fine. Forced prayer in PUBLIC school is NOT fine, and was a common practice in the early 20th century.


I remember a while ago a kid was suspended for praying in school. Anyone remember this?

Quote
Personally, I think swearing on the bible is unconstitutional, but nothing we can really do about that.


Your not forced, but you have to mention ahead of time that you don't want to say it.

Offline Majin Tenshi

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Re:10 Commandments in Alabama?
« Reply #24 on: September 01, 2003, 02:03:18 AM »
I remember a while ago a kid was suspended for praying in school. Anyone remember this?
 Note:  Stuff doesn't allways happen the way its supposed to.  
Officialy lead prayer in schools = illegal
Private prayer = legal.  

Some people over-react to Seperation to church and state, and think that a person must check their religion at the door when they enter a goverment affiliated building.  Now, if he got up and tried to lead the class in prayer, thats a different story.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2003, 02:03:54 AM by Majin Tenshi »
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