Author Topic: 10 Commandments in Alabama?  (Read 16471 times)

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Offline QUeeN typhonblue

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Re:10 Commandments in Alabama?
« Reply #100 on: September 06, 2003, 03:00:26 AM »
Goddammit! It's like watching a ostridge tear apart a scarecrow.

 :o


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Herald of Galactor

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Re:10 Commandments in Alabama?
« Reply #101 on: September 06, 2003, 03:25:40 AM »
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Roy wont remove it, and i think he's been arrested for breaking the law. I'm not sure if its slated for demolishment yet.

Thank you Phoenixfenix

Offline Mizar

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Re:10 Commandments in Alabama?
« Reply #102 on: September 06, 2003, 11:45:02 AM »
I believe that humans and dinosaurs coexisted.

I believe the earth is flat.

Offline himura_kenshin

Re:10 Commandments in Alabama?
« Reply #103 on: September 06, 2003, 04:13:12 PM »
Thank you for your contribution of aimless sarcasm. -_-
« Last Edit: September 06, 2003, 04:14:35 PM by himura_kenshin »

Offline Majin Tenshi

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Re:10 Commandments in Alabama?
« Reply #104 on: September 06, 2003, 04:37:47 PM »
I honestly don't know anything about carbon dating. However, the first thing you linked to there (which i did not examine thoroughly) says the plates probably broke apart for the same reason they are moving today.
 I think carbon dateing is based on measuring how much carbon hasn't decayed.  I'm guessing that carbon seperates and decays (atomicly?) after a creature dies.  The only problem with this is that the older something is, the less accurate the process is.  I doubt it ever gets more then 20% inaccurate though.  
Ok, so I leave and come back....

medievald00d

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Re:10 Commandments in Alabama?
« Reply #105 on: September 06, 2003, 05:40:32 PM »
Carbon dating is based on the radioactive isotope carbon 14. It has a half life of 5730 years. This means that over 5730 years, there will be half as much carbon 14 because it has radioactively decayed. There is a known percentage of Carbon 14 in the air. Every living animal and plant that breathes air, gets carbon 14 into their system. Its unavoidable. Anyways, Once something dies, it stops exchanging carbon with nature (i.e. no more breathing carbon dioxide, eating food, etc.) Therefore, at the time it dies, it should have the same percentage of carbon 14 that is in the atmosphere. over thousands of years however, the carbon 14 decays. Scientists can find how much carbon 14 decayed, and thus finding how old the skeletal remains are.

Majin Tenshi is partially correct about the accuracy
Carbon dating will not be effective on skeletal remains in the past 100 years because of the massive amounts of carbon dioxide that has been thrown into the air by fossil fuels. It has constantly been changing the percent of carbon 14 in the aptmosphere, thus making it impossible to carbon date anything in the past 100 years

Carbon dating is also believed to be accurate by the last 50,000 years, as it is believed that carbon occured at fairly constant rates during the past 50K years.
Carbon dating used before 50,000 years is a innacurate, but not by too much.

Offline Mizar

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Re:10 Commandments in Alabama?
« Reply #106 on: September 06, 2003, 05:45:00 PM »
Thank you for your contribution of aimless sarcasm. -_-

You're welcome, and thank you for your contribution to aimless believism.

But seriously, all that I see here is that you obviously haven't understood much of the way evolution and science works, but you still try to make up all kinds of silly arguments to try to falsify the whole theory, and you believe in something (and I'm not talking about God) there isn't even the slightest piece of logic or reasoning behind. And about the actual age of the earth, not only have I been taught at Biology that the earth is about 4,6 billion years old (NOT in our classes on evolution-theory btw), but also at Physics and Geography as well. The evidence is very convincing, if you only dared to take a good look at it.
And by the way, to say something about what was said earlier, evolution theory doesn't imply that free will doesn't exist, it only tells us a possible way how (complex) life came to be in this world.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2003, 05:48:36 PM by Mizar »

Offline himura_kenshin

Re:10 Commandments in Alabama?
« Reply #107 on: September 06, 2003, 06:26:28 PM »
OK, i have some qustions about carbon dating. These might sound stupid, but what you just posted is now officially all i know about carbon dating, so have a little patience with me here.

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Therefore, at the time it dies, it should have the same percentage of carbon 14 that is in the atmosphere. over thousands of years however, the carbon 14 decays. Scientists can find how much carbon 14 decayed, and thus finding how old the skeletal remains are.

I don't really understand how skeletal remains are a good representation of the carbon it has inhaled? Doesn't airborn carbon still have some effect on the bones. does all of the carbon that the animal had in it's system at the time of death stay on the bones? And how do they measure how much it has decayed?

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But seriously, all that I see here is that you obviously haven't understood much of the way evolution and science works, but you still try to make up all kinds of silly arguments to try to falsify the whole theory, and you believe in something (and I'm not talking about God) there isn't even the slightest piece of logic or reasoning behind.

Eh... I asked a reasonable question which was met with a reasonable answer. It took me a while to understand the answer due to some misinterpretations of previous posts. I let that particular argument drop since it was met with a reasonable answer. I'm getting the idea that you have skimmed over or not really read this topic very thoroughly.

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And about the actual age of the earth, not only have I been taught at Biology that the earth is about 4,6 billion years old (NOT in our classes on evolution-theory btw), but also at Physics and Geography as well. The evidence is very convincing, if you only dared to take a good look at it.

Um... I'm not about to base my beliefs on what you think is convincing.

"If i dared"? Um... i have taken into consideration everything i have seen and been told. I am not about to respond to this post by running off to read an entire text book in hopes of finding your so-called convincing evidence. If you've got such good arguments, maybe you can post them like everyone else.

edit: forgot to reply to this part

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And by the way, to say something about what was said earlier, evolution theory doesn't imply that free will doesn't exist, it only tells us a possible way how (complex) life came to be in this world.

I was assuming that the specific people i was debating with also did not believe in a spiritual realm; that is to say, things that exist, but do not exist in a physical form. Another realm, dimension, whatever you want to call it. I do not see how "free will" can exist physically. Every physical action is triggered by a specific and exact reaction. If you believe the very will and soul of a human is nothing but they're physical brain, what is free will? A brain reasons, stores memories, etc. If one believes in only a physical realm, it follows (in my opinion) that all human descisions are derived directly from experience and genetic differences. If you don't believe in another realm, what is "free will"?

editted AGAIN! *took out a sentence*
« Last Edit: September 06, 2003, 07:23:16 PM by himura_kenshin »

medievald00d

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Re:10 Commandments in Alabama?
« Reply #108 on: September 06, 2003, 07:34:57 PM »
I will reply to the best of my ability on the carbon dating issue. I will say right now, that i have gotten a 5 on the AP chem test, and a 790 on the Chem SATII. But some of the questions you are asking are biology, so i may not be able to answer those too well

The only one i can answer definitively with an absolutely positive answer is the last question. The previous questions i can answer in what i believe is true, but cannot be sure. I will start with what i AM sure of

1. The measure how much has been decayed is simple. They know the percentage of carbon 14 in the air. We know that in a living organism, the Bq g-1 (disintigration per minute per gram) is .255 (or 15.3 disintigration per minute per grams). Therefore when an animals dies, the Bq g-1 continuously lowers over time. We can compare the Bq g of the skeletal remains with .255 (a living organisms Bq g, a number that remains constant with any organism). Through an equation, we can find how old the remains are.

I tried to explain this as simply as possible, but...its science, which is never very simple...

This method has been calibrated to other dating methods like the rings on a tree, or the written records that accompany a carbon containing artifact.

When scientists use carbon dating on animals or trees, they always use the .255 Bq g. When they use carbon dating on artifacts or such, they have to use a different constant (I dont know the exact number however).

As for the carbon affecting the bones and such, the Carbon is in the bones, not on the bones. Therefore, airborne carbon 14 molecules will not interfere with the dating. (I am speculating, as my knowledge of biology is fairly weak)

« Last Edit: September 06, 2003, 07:35:39 PM by pheonixfenix »

Offline himura_kenshin

Re:10 Commandments in Alabama?
« Reply #109 on: September 06, 2003, 07:50:04 PM »
Hmmm... thanks for shedding some light on that. I'll admit my knowledge in both biology and chemistry is weak. I'm better with math, but that doesn't help me much here, heh.

Now... if they have to use a differnt number for artifacts, that implies to me that they need a different number if they are testing different materials. Now, would it be reasonable to say, that the changes that bone undergoes over many years, would require that accurate carbon dating would require a different number than recent bones?

medievald00d

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Re:10 Commandments in Alabama?
« Reply #110 on: September 06, 2003, 07:55:29 PM »
If you read an earlier post, I explained that it is impossible to carbon date anything within the last 100 years because of the massive amounts of fossil fuels burned. The CO2 level has risen rapidly, and the carbon 14 percentage has droped, changing the Bq g massively.

Organic materials, such as paper, dead trees, dead animals, soil, or fossils all use the .255 Bq g. Cement or clay however, would not use the .255 Bq g

Modern carbon dating is VERY accurate from the last 50,000 years to the past 100 years, and please rephrase your last question, i dont understand it too well.

Offline himura_kenshin

Re:10 Commandments in Alabama?
« Reply #111 on: September 06, 2003, 08:26:38 PM »
Rephrased: I was saying that bone undergoes physical changes over long periods of time (or at least i would think it would). Since, for example, clay, does not use the same number as bone, is it possible, that old bone (having undergone physical changes that new bone has not) and new bone would have different numbers?

medievald00d

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Re:10 Commandments in Alabama?
« Reply #112 on: September 06, 2003, 08:35:05 PM »
No, but i understand what you are asking now
I'll give you the equation that they use for carbon dating and i'll explain it

A=Aie-kt

A is the current Bq g -1
Ai is the constant .225 Bq g -1
e is natural log, a math term
K is the decay constant, in this case we are talking about carbon, who's decay constant is 1.21 E-4
T is time

Therefore, if it is a newer bone, T (time) would be smaller, and not Ai
If we are talking about other radioactive material dating (which is done, carbon datins just happens to be the most common, and thus popularized by the media), then K, the decay constant would be different

Offline himura_kenshin

Re:10 Commandments in Alabama?
« Reply #113 on: September 06, 2003, 09:00:24 PM »
Having a bit of difficulty here. Lemme get a few things straight. You said Bq g -1 is disintegration per minute per gram. What unit is disintegration measured in?

Also, i think i understand what you're saying. If i understand correctly, you are telling me that since T (time) is a variable that can change in the equation, that different age is not an error in the equation since the equation allows and accounts for different values of T.

If i am understanding that correctly, i want to point out that the T in that equation changes according to carbon levels, not according to the hypothetical changes i mentioned.

Let's say for example, that bones over a very long period of time turn into clay. (Just an example) What a scientist would do upon discovering these bones is test them with the bone Ai rather than the clay Ai. This would throw off his results. This is a hypothetical example where carbon testing of bones would lead to inaccurate results. I don't really think they turn into clay, but perhaps they undergo some physical change that throws off the results in the same way.

Now, it's possible i misunderstood your response, and also possible that bones don't go under any drastic physical changes over time, i'm just speculating; presenting a possibility.

medievald00d

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Re:10 Commandments in Alabama?
« Reply #114 on: September 06, 2003, 09:12:06 PM »
Pq g-1 IS a unit of measurement. Its like asking what unit grams are measured in...

Ok, I will reiterate how carbon dating works...

Carbon 14 is radioactive. This simply means that it atomically breaks up into other elements. Its half life is 5730 years. This means that in 5730 years, a 100 gram sample will be 50 gram, and in another 5730 years, the 50 grams will be 25 grams, and so on.

Therefore, the rate of disintegration changes as there is less to disintegrate. (example, it take 5730 years for a 100 gram sample to lose 50 grams, yet it take 5730 years for a 2 gram sample to lose 1 gram, there is a HUGE difference in the rate of disintegration)

Using methods such as geiger counters, scientists can figure out the rate of disintegration, A. Ai is a constant for any living organism, and K and e are also constants. The only thing left to figure out is T.

Lets say bones are fossilized, or a clay film develops over the bone. The bone's carbon 14 will STILL go through radioactive decay, and therefore, still possible to carbon date.

 Bone does not change into other materials (not that i know of, again thats a biology question).

Offline Mizar

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Re:10 Commandments in Alabama?
« Reply #115 on: September 06, 2003, 09:38:59 PM »
Eh... I asked a reasonable question which was met with a reasonable answer. It took me a while to understand the answer due to some misinterpretations of previous posts. I let that particular argument drop since it was met with a reasonable answer. I'm getting the idea that you have skimmed over or not really read this topic very thoroughly.

Okay, sorry, I thought you were getting back later on that particular argument.

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Um... I'm not about to base my beliefs on what you think is convincing.

So, tell me, what DO you base your beliefs on? What exactly made you believe what the Bible says is true? And what made you believe that dinosaurs and human beings coexisted?

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"If i dared"? Um... i have taken into consideration everything i have seen and been told. I am not about to respond to this post by running off to read an entire text book in hopes of finding your so-called convincing evidence. If you've got such good arguments, maybe you can post them like everyone else.

Some of the evidence has already been posted in this thread, and I'm not going to explain how we can find out the age of something from examining fossil records, layers of sediments or mountains/volcanos. So if you really want more evidence or just more information, check out this link: http://www.talkorigins.org/origins/faqs-youngearth.html

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If you don't believe in another realm, what is "free will"?

That's a difficult question, but just because I don't know the answer myself it doesn't mean there isn't one, right? I don't see why it would be impossible for "free will" to exist, just because I don't believe in another realm. Maybe we just have to redefine our current definitions of "free will" in order to make this possible.
However, I don't believe in 'free will' myself, I personally think that there's only a complex interaction between us and our environment. But it also depends on how one defines "free will" of course. I mean, in a way I do have "free will", because I have this distinct feeling that I can do and think whatever I want and when I want. But then again, if you really start to dig deeper and think about "why" and "how" you think and make your choices, and why it is that you're acting and responding in a certain way to something, I really don't get anywhere. My thoughts seem just to be running through my brain automatically, conjuring up images and thought patterns, combining them into something that hopefully make sense. I don't feel like I really control them, even if superficially I might think I do. Everything is only interacting with eachother according to the forces and laws of the universe (in my opinion).

And another realm? Sorry, sounds nice, but it doesn't solve a thing. Why can't there be 'free will' in the physical realm, but in the other realm (whatever that means) it suddenly isn't a problem at all? I think it's far too easy and simplistic to just say that there must be a spiritual realm somewhere and that somehow all explanations and also 'free will' must exist there. That's just a clever way of hiding yourself from the tough questions of life.

Offline himura_kenshin

Re:10 Commandments in Alabama?
« Reply #116 on: September 06, 2003, 09:46:17 PM »
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Pq g-1 IS a unit of measurement. Its like asking what unit grams are measured in...

eh... not really, since it's a unit made of other units. For example, the unit m.p.h is miles divided by hours. You described this unit as disintegration per minute per gram. Minutes and grams are units but disintegration is not, that's why i was asking what you measured disintegration in.

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Carbon 14 is radioactive. This simply means that it atomically breaks up into other elements. Its half life is 5730 years. This means that in 5730 years, a 100 gram sample will be 50 gram, and in another 5730 years, the 50 grams will be 25 grams, and so on.

Therefore, the rate of disintegration changes as there is less to disintegrate. (example, it take 5730 years for a 100 gram sample to lose 50 grams, yet it take 5730 years for a 2 gram sample to lose 1 gram, there is a HUGE difference in the rate of disintegration)

Yes i already knew what half life is.

I'm going to reinforce what i was saying here with a few points that i consider undisputable.

1.) Using the Ai for clay when trying to determine the age of bone would yield a faulty answer.
2.) If a bone could turn into clay over time, and it was tested as a bone, the test would yield a faulty answer.

Question: Do you happen to know the specific difference between clay and organic matter that makes their Ai variable different? What Ai a petrified tree?

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Bone does not change into other materials (not that i know of, again thats a biology question).

This actually pretty much answered my question. I mentioned just above here that there must be some specific factor that is different between clay and bone to change the Ai variable. If this factor could change in anyway over time, it would ruin the accuracy of the test.

It's important that you do NOT mistake my qustion for "What's the difference between clay and bone?". That would be a stupid question as there are many obvious differences between clay and bone. My question is which specific factor(s) are different that require us to use a different Ai variable?
« Last Edit: September 06, 2003, 09:48:40 PM by himura_kenshin »

medievald00d

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Re:10 Commandments in Alabama?
« Reply #117 on: September 06, 2003, 09:57:29 PM »
clay does not have carbon in it. Therefore, you cant carbon date it

A petrified tree still has a Ai of .255. At the time it died, it had a Bq g-1 of .255, therefore, the Ai is .255. Remember, the Ai is the Bq g-1 when it was alive. Therefore, if it was EVER alive, .255 would be the Bq g

Ok, Miles per hour measure speed. What unit are Miles per hour measured in?

I believe disintegration per minute per gram is how many atoms disintegrate per minute per gram. It is 15.3 Disintigrations per minute per gram. You may ask how we get .255 insead of 15.3 as the Bq g-1. Its quite simple actually, we just divide 15.3 by 60 to get the seconds. I believe Bq stands for Bequerel, as in Henri Bequerel, the man who discovered radioactivity.

As for measuring clay, i believe that we would not use the rate of carbon decay, but rather of another element, possibly sulfur. Also, clay is a ceramic, a generalized ceramic. Thus, when you say clay, there are thousands of different kinds of clay.

Offline himura_kenshin

Re:10 Commandments in Alabama?
« Reply #118 on: September 06, 2003, 10:14:46 PM »
Hmm.... ok, that pretty much answers my question.

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clay does not have carbon in it. Therefore, you cant carbon date it

really? *shrug* i only said clay because of this:

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Organic materials, such as paper, dead trees, dead animals, soil, or fossils all use the .255 Bq g. Cement or clay however, would not use the .255 Bq g


I thought this implied that clay and cement are also carbon dated.

Now, carbon dating in the last 100 years is impossible because of the use of fossile fuels. Isn't it possible that some event in the past (i have no idea what) could have increased or decreased carbon levels in the same way, and thus destroyed the accuracy?

Again, excuse my lack of knowledge in these fields, but i do have a bit of trouble believing that the only thing that could possibly increase carbon levels is the use of fossile fuels. Correct me if i'm wrong.


edit:
Just so you know, i'm not trying to get you to say "Holy crap, carbon dating is completely worthless after all." I'm just attempting to find a possible flaw.

'nother edit:
Hey neato, i'm of the nexus already!  ;D
« Last Edit: September 06, 2003, 10:18:31 PM by himura_kenshin »

medievald00d

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Re:10 Commandments in Alabama?
« Reply #119 on: September 06, 2003, 10:31:58 PM »
yea, i thought clay was carbon based. Then you had to get into the specifics, so I had to look it up. Clay is made of other stuff apparently.

As far as I know, there isnt any event in the past that may have done this. As far as things that can increase carbon levels, many things increase carbon levels. Cows belch and pass gas a lot (they have 6 or 7 stomachs built for digesting grass...), animals inhale oxygen and exhale carbon dioxide, and decomposing animals also increase carbon levels. However, plants, anlae, and cyano backteria use photosynthesis and turn carbon dioxide into oxygen. Basically, its a cycle. Therefore, carbon levels stay relatively the same.

Since the past 100 years however, carbon levels have skyrocketed from the burning of fossil fuels and wood. we use fossil fuels for industrial plants, cars, and to generate electricity. At the same time, we are destroying trees to make room for farming land in 3rd world countries, and we destroy trees for timber and paper. This destroys the balance, making carbon levels higher than ever before.


Offline himura_kenshin

Re:10 Commandments in Alabama?
« Reply #120 on: September 06, 2003, 11:15:24 PM »
Whoops, sorry mizar, i totoally missed your post. I'll replly to it now.

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So, tell me, what DO you base your beliefs on? What exactly made you believe what the Bible says is true? And what made you believe that dinosaurs and human beings coexisted?

I have a few reasons for believing the Bible is true. There's really no reason to find the Bible, in terms of it's historical accounts, any more or less faulty than any other historical account. Also, the gospels were written by several differnt people in several different places at the same time (if i remember correctly). If the miracles mentioned in the gosples were fabricated, they shouldn't have been the same in each one. Also, there are the innumerable reported miracles in the Christian church. I haven't got much faith in Christian reasoning, to be perfectly honest, which is why i don't just agree with everything i hear. However, i do have a fair amount of faith in Christian honesty. I have plenty of reasons why i believe there is a God. I'm a bit more lacking in reasons to believe in Christianity specifically, but i do have some.

edit: That second belief goes with the first. Animals and humans created in the same 7 days. And yes i believe in 7 days, not 7 phases of creation. I have reasons for believing that too, if you are interested in hearing them.

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That's a difficult question, but just because I don't know the answer myself it doesn't mean there isn't one, right? I don't see why it would be impossible for "free will" to exist, just because I don't believe in another realm. Maybe we just have to redefine our current definitions of "free will" in order to make this possible.
However, I don't believe in 'free will' myself, I personally think that there's only a complex interaction between us and our environment. But it also depends on how one defines "free will" of course. I mean, in a way I do have "free will", because I have this distinct feeling that I can do and think whatever I want and when I want. But then again, if you really start to dig deeper and think about "why" and "how" you think and make your choices, and why it is that you're acting and responding in a certain way to something, I really don't get anywhere. My thoughts seem just to be running through my brain automatically, conjuring up images and thought patterns, combining them into something that hopefully make sense. I don't feel like I really control them, even if superficially I might think I do. Everything is only interacting with eachother according to the forces and laws of the universe (in my opinion).

It seems to me, that anyone who believes in a physical realm only cannot justifiably believe in free will. My definition of free will, is a factor beyond genetics and experience which plays a role in our descion making. Free will is driven by our desires. Don't ask me to define desires. A person can tell by examining their own thought what a desire is, but it's not something that can easily be explained in words.

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And another realm? Sorry, sounds nice, but it doesn't solve a thing. Why can't there be 'free will' in the physical realm, but in the other realm (whatever that means) it suddenly isn't a problem at all? I think it's far too easy and simplistic to just say that there must be a spiritual realm somewhere and that somehow all explanations and also 'free will' must exist there. That's just a clever way of hiding yourself from the tough questions of life.

I have a rather abstract way of thinking. Who's to say that another realm has to have the same laws of physics as ours? Or for that matter, why would they even have to operate on the same rules of math and logic? Such a world is incomprehencible to us, and could not exist within the physical realm, but who's to say it can't exist at all? My personal opinion is that free will, consciousness, and a soul, are all things that exist, but cannot be understood by the human mind. I reach this conclusion because such a thing as human consciousness seems to me to be completely irrational and cannot possibly exist in our world.

Pheonix:
To tell you the truth, i have a problem with dating methods in general when they are used to determine the age of the world. Creationists use them too (Oil field pressure, supernovas, magnetic field, dust on the moon, so on). All dating methods basically assume that nothing out of the ordinary ever happened in the past. They make assumptions about the past based on the present.
This is a kind of lame example, but it get's my point across: Let's say i walk into the bathroom and the sink is running. The drain is plugged and the sink contains one gallon of water. Say i discover that an identical sink requires a certain amount of time to produce one gallon. Can i generalize how long the sink has been running? No; perhaps the drain wasn't closed yet when the sink was turned on. Perhaps someone took a shower and thinned the stream. Perhaps a worldwide flood added unaccounted for water into the sink :P. Again, not the best example, but you get my point.

edit:
question: Couldn't volcanoes, earthquakes, or possilbly noah's flood have had a drastic effect on carbon levels?
« Last Edit: September 06, 2003, 11:21:52 PM by himura_kenshin »

medievald00d

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Re:10 Commandments in Alabama?
« Reply #121 on: September 07, 2003, 12:12:49 AM »
Read up on the council of Nicea. What they dont tell you is that they left out Paul's letter to Jesus, among other things


I suppose you also believe that the world was created 6000 years ago ::)
In that case i would assume you believe dinosaurs became extinct within the last few thousand years?

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To tell you the truth, i have a problem with dating methods in general when they are used to determine the age of the world. Creationists use them too (Oil field pressure, supernovas, magnetic field, dust on the moon, so on). All dating methods basically assume that nothing out of the ordinary ever happened in the past. They make assumptions about the past based on the present.
This is a kind of lame example, but it get's my point across: Let's say i walk into the bathroom and the sink is running. The drain is plugged and the sink contains one gallon of water. Say i discover that an identical sink requires a certain amount of time to produce one gallon. Can i generalize how long the sink has been running? No; perhaps the drain wasn't closed yet when the sink was turned on. Perhaps someone took a shower and thinned the stream. Perhaps a worldwide flood added unaccounted for water into the sink . Again, not the best example, but you get my point.

people still estimate with a certain accuracy. They use many dating tools, to discover how old our planet is. Althought they may be off by a billion or 2 years, it is fairly conclusive that the world is at least a few billion years old

Volcanos, earthquakes or "Noah's flood" would not force natural carbon levels too far off...That being said, If "Noah's flood" actually happened, wouldnt all the trees have drowned underneath all that water?


Alright, I'm going to attack religion in general (monotheistic religions)
In the past few thousand years, many of the worlds bloodiest battles were fought over religion. Religion was the direct cause of keeping the world from advancing. Today, extremists continue to kill, or suicide bomb. ITS SICK. For a religion that preaches to love, Its followers are shitty. Christians kill abortionists because "God told them to". God is a fucking crutch for losers who need to cling on to something.

People fear what happens to them after death, so they believe in god
Feel free to prove this statement wrong in any way you choose.

The Middle East is unstable today for one reason. Religion

Religion is the true evil of Mankind. Religion will give men excuses to commit atrocities. I mean every offense when i say this, but when you say that you believe that the bible is true, you become a fundamentalist, and in my book, every fundamentalist may as well be a future terrorist.

I will say this one more time, and I believe this with all my heart: Religion is the true evil of mankind

Ah, yes, answer me this. When, in the history of mankind, has religion been a positive force?
« Last Edit: September 07, 2003, 12:14:54 AM by pheonixfenix »

Offline himura_kenshin

Re:10 Commandments in Alabama?
« Reply #122 on: September 07, 2003, 01:00:52 AM »
hmm.. i don't know if 6000 years is the right number or not. I'm not really sure exactly how old the earth is, but i believe 7 days means 7 days.

Quote
People fear what happens to them after death, so they believe in god
Feel free to prove this statement wrong in any way you choose.

I certainly won't argue that that is why some people believe in God. I don't consider it my reason. I believe what seems true to me. Wanting an afterlife would be a foolish reason to believe in God. Believing in God wouldn't get you an afterlife if God didn't exist. There are plenty of Christians who use religion as a crutch. Similarly, there are Atheists who use their beliefs because they don't want to believe they are not in control, or that they will ever be held accountable for their actions.

When has religion been a positive force? Often times, people refrain from doing things that could have ill effects because of their ethics. Religious groups are responsible for some charities. Religion has brought people away from drugs, depression, etc. at certain times. No doubt religion has also caused many bad things to happen. But i don't think it's always a bad thing. Furthermore i really don't like grouping "religion" together. It's not all the same thing. Basically anything that isn't atheist is called a religion, as far as i know. Oh, by the way, i don't support killing abortionists. Generalizing about "Christians" is bad enough, since Christians are a very diverse group of people. Generalizing about religion altogether is just ridiculous. There have been plenty of fights/wars born of greed and desire for power as well. Oh and as i've said before, i heard that a fundamentalist is a person who takes the Bible 100% literally. That's not me.

Offline Majin Tenshi

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Re:10 Commandments in Alabama?
« Reply #123 on: September 07, 2003, 01:17:00 AM »
(Causality is only an excuse when dealing with things that are free from it)
(I think I've heard 6000 years before)

I believe the whole point of pheonix's question was religion as a whole and their effects on society as a whole, with a focus on Judeo-christian religions.  

Historicly, it is possible to to look at the effects of a religion on a culture, but it is not possible to look at what it does to people's daily lives.

Considering all the violence and hatred that is generated from people who demand that everyone accept thier "truth," and everything that uses religion as its justification, I'd say that religion does do a great deal of harm.  I do not, however, feel I know enough to say weather or not the effect of religion is overall detrimental.
Ok, so I leave and come back....

Offline himura_kenshin

Re:10 Commandments in Alabama?
« Reply #124 on: September 07, 2003, 01:28:44 AM »
In any case, i don't believe what i believe because religion hurts or helps society. If everyone believed in karma, we'd proably have a pretty great society. But that doesn't make it true. Religion being helpful or harmful doesn't make it any more or less true or false than it already is. Now this was a half-decent philosophical debate for a while. If this turns into a blame game or a "look at all the trouble you cause" thread, i'll be ducking out of it. I have no desire to point fingers or have them pointed at me.

edit:
Oh, btw, majin, i actually had some questions for you concerning mutations:
1.) How common are mutations?
2.) Are they more common in different species?
3.) Are mutations always passed on to offspring?
« Last Edit: September 07, 2003, 01:33:59 AM by himura_kenshin »