Downfall of Gaiseric: not the creating of a God Hand

[medievald00d]

well, Guts hasnt died of old age yet...

Thus, we have no idea when Guts will die of old age (I assume he'll die of old age because everytime he's at the brink of death some magic heals him...)

Oh yea, and just because someone in the interstice is killed, it doesnt mean that they didnt live longer...

[Kuja]

well here's a theory I came about. the god hand aren't supposed to be able to fully appear in the material world. So how did they managed to destroy an entire kingdom? Do you think they created apostles to do their bidding? If so don't you think these apostles would appear somewhere in the legends or in the scriptures? And if they were the first to destroy midland, why are they now trying to save it through griffith?
I've been thinking about this for quite some time. And I came to the conclusion that maybe Gaiseric was a  god hand reborn, maybe void, and was stopped by a wise man, a magician who summoned the four guardian angels AND who was helped by skullknight.
Maybe skullknight knew the man that became void, and was betrayed by this man during an eclipse. And then, he started to struggle in order to get revenge against him. When void(or another god hand) was reborn, he managed to defeat him,destroying the kingdom he had created, with the help of magic. This could explain the attack on flora's house, and maybe similar attacks on other magicians occuring at the same time, in order to get rid of a dangerous enemy before the execution of their plans, and to avoid repeating the same mistake. And this could explain the branded corpses under the tower where griffith was held prisoner, with Void/gaiseric preparing a ceremony we never heard of(maybe, but I strongly doubt it to summon Idea himself), a ceremony which needed a gigantic amount of human sacrifices(which would explain the necessity to conquer a whole kingdom), and skullknight coming and destroying gaiseric with the help of a powerful magician, before the end of the ceremony.
this theory is in my opinion very difficult to defend, and I could surely make it a lot better, but I find it rather interesting, and I'd like to hear your opinions about it.

[Walter]

well here's a theory I came about. the god hand aren't supposed to be able to fully appear in the material world. So how did they managed to destroy an entire kingdom?

Not God Hand.  4 Kings.

Do you think they created apostles to do their bidding?

No.

If so don't you think these apostles would appear somewhere in the legends or in the scriptures?

Sure, why not.

And if they were the first to destroy midland, why are they now trying to save it through griffith?

God Hand is ruled by Causality, Causality is ruled by Idea, Idea is ruled by Humanity, Humanity is fickle and wants different things at different times.

I've been thinking about this for quite some time. And I came to the conclusion that maybe Gaiseric was a  god hand reborn, maybe void

So, Slan referring to Skull Knight as "King" is just some sort of inside joke between the two of them?

blahblahblah   This could explain the attack on flora's house, and maybe similar attacks on other magicians occuring at the same time,

It needed explaining?

And this could explain the branded corpses under the tower where griffith was held prisoner, with Void/gaiseric preparing a ceremony we never heard of(maybe, but I strongly doubt it to summon Idea himself), a ceremony which needed a gigantic amount of human sacrifices(which would explain the necessity to conquer a whole kingdom), and skullknight coming and destroying gaiseric with the help of a powerful magician, before the end of the ceremony.

The above stuff I like, but its full of problems.  Sounds like the beginnings of a righteous fanfic though.

[himura_kenshin]

heh, yeah. Slann called skullknight king? Wow somehow i missed a lot of stuff....   Well the thing while going to rescue griffith heavily implid that skullknight was gaiseric, but that confirms it IMO.

One thing that was confusing me is that i was under the impression that a "festival" comes around once every thousand years and is the rebirth of a god hand. "Eclipses" come around every i'm not sure how often and initiate a god hand. Then apostles summon gh even more frequenly but only a ceremony in another dimension, no eclipse, takes place. Problems with that theory have arisen. One is that, right before grif was initiated, ther were some chapter(s) called "eve of festival". Another problem is that in my trans, skullknight says to Guts something along the lines of "Once in 1000 years it happens, we call it festival, you've seen it before" <-- sloppy summary there, but that's why i'm asking for another trans. Only comes around once in 1000 years, but Guts has seen two now? Um... unless i missed a little box somwhere that said "997 years later..." that seems like a contradiction in itself.  ???

[Hi_There]

Ok, this might be off on a tangent but, I'll add my theory. Plz bear with me.

Flora mentioned that there might be a 'heaven,' and a 'hell'.

Therefore, there's the 'light' and the 'darkness.'

To explain my point, look at Mozgul that attacked the darkness of the eclipse as an 'angel'.

If Human's created Idea and Idea begets Casualty and Casualty begets Godhand, then Humanity is GOD or God's creator. Human's have two hands/facets. Therefore there could have been another Godhand-the godhand before Void and the others. The 'Other' hand of God.

Void and his fellow GH seem dark, much like demon overlords. So then Another previous Godhand may have consisted of light 'Angel' overlords.

Gaseric<sp?> could have been an 'angel' godhand, reborn with special powers to rule the world.
Griffith was reborn with special powers 1000 years later, and he seems on his way to take over the world.

It's mentioned that every 1000 years a reincarnation happens.

What if the wiseman Gaseric imprisoned found the Crimson Beherit that was once Gaseric's? and on his way to become a 'god hand of light' by destroying Gaseric's kingdom, found that he couldn't take his place in the light, because Gaseric is already the 'fated' fifth godhand of light. With Godhand, casualty rules.

Therefore Void's Sacrifice, sacrificed the previous Godhand since Gaseric was a one of its members. Then the previous Godhands could've been banished as the Elementals that Schierke(sp) summoned since they were so powerful or somewhere else.

Void was the start of the 'dark' Godhand'.

As for Gaseric, with his powers, became Skull Knight and became a struggler like Guts(since he didn't get banished like the previous Godhand and he also denied fate).

It seems that you can sacrifice someone elses Kingdom. Look at that Giant egg Beherit apostle sacrifice that Vatican Tower. So you can assume that the wiseman did so too.

So then perhaps Guts or someone else is supposed to bring down the 'dark' Godhand(its a Vicious cycle), but due to Guts ability to deny fate, he may just end the cycle all together.

End of speculation

[Aho411]

The idea of two Godhands is interesting. The "other" hand of God is a cool concept.

[Hi_There]

Usually, when you break down berserk to more basic components, they are simply components of the Human nature. With all the complex and ellaborate things in berserk, human nature is still the basis of it all-and is what I believe the creator is deriving from.

Even the concept of different realities(mortal plain, astral, idea) and the overlappings could be based on the human consiousness(mortalplain), Ego/superego/id(astral plain) and soul(idea')

Now the overlapping (World, Interstice, nexus, Vortex, Abyss)
World=corporeal world of humanity

Interstice=belief, like religion, ghosts, life after death(Ego/superego/Id influencing the consciousness).

Nexus=Acts of murder, rape etc etc (the manifestation of the 'shadow' influencing the consciousness)

Vortex= thoughts of doing harm, thoughts that would arise guilt, carnal thoughts (The basis of the Id)

Abyss= the unknown, the unspeakable part of humans, the most gruesome and descusting facets in the human Psyche(considered the 'Shadow' in which even the unconscience tries to suppress, 'the root of evil' in the psyche)

Model of the Berserk Universe posted by Griffith on another thread.
http://www.skullknight.net/images/The%20Berserk%20Universe.jpg

Berserk is an ingenious work reflecting the human condition on almost all fronts. Clearly, the creator has been a colledge man. Though I wonder what he magored in.

[himura_kenshin]

Well, i wouldn't say "clearly" but he may well be.

Interesting theory, if there is a good gh, it's probably the elementals. Although there aren't really any good ways to contradict what you said, it is awfully heavy in speculation and thin on given information. Who knows though, you could be right. It is an neat theory.

I kinda like to keep my theories within the mechanics of the story that have already been defined, rather than adding to them. That's just me though.

Any thought on the apparent contradiction i pointed out in what sk said?0

[Walter]

One thing that was confusing me is that i was under the impression that a "festival" comes around once every thousand years and is the rebirth of a god hand. "Eclipses" come around every i'm not sure how often and initiate a god hand.

A festival is an eclipse is a shoku.  They are all the same.  A God Hand Birth eclipse occurs every 216 years.  A Reincarnation Eclipse occurs every 1000 years.  

[Hi_There]

Interesting theory, if there is a good gh, it's probably the elementals

Though even if they were 'angels,' I wouldn't go as far as calling them good. Look at Mozgus and his 'angels'. I would just consider them as opposers, cause their ideals seems to be just as freaky.

Although there aren't really any good ways to contradict what you said, it is awfully heavy in speculation and thin on given information. Who knows though, you could be right. It is an neat theory.

Oh, no doubt, just adding to the speculation craziness.

[Aazealh]

Therefore Void's Sacrifice, sacrificed the previous Godhand since Gaseric was a one of its members.

It's impossible.

It seems that you can sacrifice someone elses Kingdom. Look at that Giant egg Beherit apostle sacrifice that Vatican Tower. So you can assume that the wiseman did so too.

Nope, read the Snail Count episodes again, and btw the Beherit apostle didn't sacrifice the tower.

[Hi_There]

I was going off on a tangent.

Perhaps the wise man and Gaseric were once friends...

[krunkster]

I was going off on a tangent.

Perhaps the wise man and Gaseric were once friends...

Close but no betty.
Gaseric imprisoned the wiseman.

[himura_kenshin]

WHERE IS THE BLOODY THING ABOUT THE WISEMAN! >_< Obviously all of you know, can one of you tell me!? I don't remember that part of the manga.

Oh also, where does it say that an initiation eclipse only comes around every 216 years?

[Hi_There]

Close but no betty.
Gaseric imprisoned the wiseman.

I said 'once' friends, as Griffith and Guts were 'once' friends, just as the King thought of Griffith as once a friend.

The wise man might have betrayed or just POed Gaseric to a point where he improsoned him.

Also he was 'imprisoned' not outright killed. So there might be something there. That's probably the reason he was able to sacrifice Gaserics kingdon... If the kingdom was also important to the wise man.

himura_kenshin, Mozgus mentioned it to Farnese right after he did his prayer where he kept banging his head.

I think theres more reference but I forgot...

[Smith]

You does have a very neat theory, but there is still some flaws, for example...

If Gaiseric was a good godhand, then he wouldnt rule the world with brutal means... (unless u r saying the legend is wrong)

[krunkster]

WHERE IS THE BLOODY THING ABOUT THE WISEMAN! >_< Obviously all of you know, can one of you tell me!? I don't remember that part of the manga.

Oh also, where does it say that an initiation eclipse only comes around every 216 years?

It's in the captain's room... but you gotta have the key, homeboy!
_{Edit: Argg guilt pang.... (v18c6p107)}

[Hi_There]

If Gaiseric was a good godhand, then he wouldnt rule the world with brutal means... (unless u r saying the legend is wrong)

Though even if he was in the Godhand that consisted of 'angels,' nowhere would I consider them 'Good'. Take a look at Mozgus and his angel buddies, they didn't seem so good, just dogmatic.

[Smith]

Take a look at Mozgus and his angel buddies, they didn't seem so good, just dogmatic.

There is one thing that i respected about him, at least he care for his ppl when the monsters invaded the tower (not a good way, but at least he did something to protect them)

[Hi_There]

I like him because of that too-especially how he cared about his angels(torturers), but that's not the only reason. He also cracked me up as shocked me at the same time... Who would've thought of crushing a man's head with a bible-like book.  

[himura_kenshin]

Miura


anyway, i'll quit whining now because of the page numbers post, thanks krunkster.

OOO... math has yielded some intersting discoveries.

216 * 5 = 1080
216 * 4 = 864
Significance of this?

There was a two to three year span between the initiation of grif eclipse and the rebirth of grif eclipse. We'll say 3 right now for convenience sake.

Let's say that the downfall of gaiseric's kingdom was an initiation ceremony. That places it either 867 years or 1083 years before the eclipse at the tower. The time between the two rebirth festivals is always going to be 1000 years. This means that there was an initiation ceremony 83 years before and 133 years after the rebirth festival 1000 years ago.

birth of GH's took place during the following times dating from tower eclipse:

1083 years ago
867 years ago
651 years ago
435 years ago
219 years ago
3 years ago

Anybody else count six here? That's because only one has been reborn at this point. Go back with the 216 any further, and you'd have too many god hands. Don't go back that far and there would be no one to be reborn at the previous rebirth festival. Here's another intersting tidbit. The only one who could've been reborn 1000 years ago, was the very first gh. The dowfall of gaiseric was one of four things:

1.) A rebirth ceremony
2.) The initiation ceremony that came before that
3. )The initiation ceremony that came after that
4.) The summoning of the elementals.

I'll hurry up and post this and examine each of those four possibilities in a moment. Oh and since i'm just basing it off what you guys say, can anyone reference that 216 quote for me? Also, please tell me if my math or logic is flawed anywhere, but i'm pretty sure i'm dead on with this.

[himura_kenshin]

1.) Rebirth:

It's reasonable to say that the very first gh was either skully, gaiseric or  void. If it was void, void was reborn at the downfall of gaiserics kingdom. Except then he would have to get back somehow and if he did that, we'd be back with 6 gh rather than 5. Wrong answer.
Gaiseric? He would've been ruling his kingdom before he was ever reincarnated. Wrong answer.
Skully? Well, if he's gaiseric, we can rule that out. If he's not, he was reborn at the destruction of gaiseric's kingdom and we STILL have no history of what the heck gaiseric is. Almost certainly wrong answer.

2.) First initiation ceremony:
The funny thing about my theory is that it proves void couldn't have been the first gh, because the first one had to be reborn! It was the only one that would've been there early enough. if it was gaiseric in this case, again, not there to rule his kindom, doesn't work. Skully? same reason, doesn't work.

3.) Second initiation ceremony:
Couldn't be void. Skully is almost certainly gaiseric. Gaiseric becomes a god hand, gaiseric is reborn lives for a long time and eventually raises a kingdom, though at a much slower pace than grif, since it is not destroyed until 83 years later. It's destroyed by the wiseman becoming void and sacrificing the kingdom. The whole kingdom? not just a few people? Possible i guess. Gaiseric may or may not have been included in the sacrifice. Either way he has plenty of reason to go after void. Although i expect some strong disagreement that gaiseric was in fact the first gh, this theory checks out!  

Elementals:
Gaiseric is first gh, builds a kingdom at an undetermined speed, gets it taken down by some person who summons elementals. The birth of void is accounted for nowhere, could've happened before or after. Also provides no reason for skully going after void.

Maybe i made a math mistake somewhere or missed some important detail, but.... i think i got somethin' here!

Oh, and sorry for the double post, i was just trying to better organize my thoughts/comments.


edit: uh oh... just thought of a problem... if downfall of gaiseric was initiation of void, and the only gh at the time was already reborn, who were these 4/5 angels? Now the elementals one looks about equally is good, but still has a few kinks. One of those last two looks the best. Oh and as for the notion of them boing mozgus or mozgus type angels, the theory's major points remain the same as the elementals theory.

Hmm... now i REALLY wanna know where that 216 quote is .

[krunkster]

Hmm... now i REALLY wanna know where that 216 quote is .

It was in the manga outside of Morguz' castle when skully is looking for the Betty Apostle.
You look throught the damn Manga and tell us.
Or you could try searching for shoku on the forums...
Either way do your homework and let us know.

[Walter]

Geezus Kenshin...

As for the 216 reference, its in volume 12, spoken by a random apostle (and YES, every demon at the eclipse is an apostle, BIG SHOCKER!).

[Smith]

Geezus Kenshin...

and YES, every demon at the eclipse is an apostle, BIG SHOCKER!.

There is nothing surprising about that, the hawks were dragged into hell and arent hell suppose to be the home plane for apostles?

What really shocked me is that it was Griffith army that consist of apostles, not those insect manifestation we see in vol15 where Guts kills (in otehr words they are really hard to kill), can u imagine if apostle like Count and Wyld join his army for Griffith cause?