Author Topic: The Bastard Son of Fate  (Read 3835 times)

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Offline elhinnaw

The Bastard Son of Fate
« on: September 09, 2003, 06:11:01 AM »
I am also new here, so if I piss anyone off or do something Im not aware of let me apologize in advance.

I have had many discussions recently with my friends about the history recap of Serpico and Farnese.  Maybe its me, but for about a third of a volume, Miura leaves Guts and Griffith and the main storyline completely alone.  He goes in a recap about Farnese and Serpico, in which it is quite clear that Farnese is to represent Griffith, and Serpico is to represent Guts ("you are mine" phrase).

The main point is that it Farnese is clearly a noble, given noble treatment by the elders, and even when she makes mistakes she is granted things because she is noble.  And Serpico, while he is technically in the same blood line, is not given the same, just merely tagged along, and not given the same recognition.

I read that volume and thought that Guts was somehow technically on the same level as Griffith (bloodline --> fated to have incredible power) but somehow was not given the recognition as God Hand like Griffith, but is merely being tagged along...Guts being the Bastard sone of Fate.

I am not to sure if thats even plausible, but I just felt that Farnese and Serpico's story held some sort of large significance, even if mine is wrong.

Offline magus1234

Re:The Bastard Son of Fate
« Reply #1 on: September 09, 2003, 07:03:43 AM »
thats an interesting parallel,i didnt even think about,good insight.Maybe farnese will eventually fall to the horrors of a beherit?(i doubt it)i mean she is always wondering about her existance and thinking of leaving

Online Walter

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Re:The Bastard Son of Fate
« Reply #2 on: September 09, 2003, 02:54:40 PM »
Cool idea but your ground work needs some more thought.

  For one, the significance of "Snow, Flames and.." sort of stealing the show away from Griffith and Guts isn't really thay significant.  This was a Gaiden that took place directly between the Retribution and Millennium Falcon arcs.  It was a great time to jump right into character origins, Miura chose Farnese and Serpico.

  Secondly, I only vaguely see a connection between Guts/Griffith and Serpico/Farnese in your theory.  It seems to only exist ... in theory.
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Offline elhinnaw

Re:The Bastard Son of Fate
« Reply #3 on: September 09, 2003, 03:48:33 PM »
I do think this topic needs more thought, but I do not think that the connection of Griffith/Guts to Farnese/Serpico is weak.  In fact, after relooking at that segment again, I am only more convinced of it:
(all these pictures are from Volume 22, starting with chapter 9):

p185- Serpico in the snow, very similiar environment to Guts when he ran after killing Gambino.  The words Serpico says are eerily almost identical.

p186- Serpico's description of Farnese is not only similar to what Guts says about Griffith, but almost identical to how others described Griffith in the Band of the Hawk arc.

p187- Farnese states "from this point on, you belong to me" I dont think that needs explaining

p188- Serpico is doing all of her bidding, and while he thinks it not that big a deal, others are shocked that he is able to hold up alone.  Similar to the beginning when Griffith asks Guts to rear gaurd by himself, and he completes it on his own skill and everyone is amazed but Guts. (a different tone obviously goes for each, but the actions are the same, thats what counts)

p192- The picture of Farnese with her face blacked out could not be told apart from Griffiths if it werent for the eyes.

p194- Farnese's cremotorium, parallel with Griffith asking Guts "do you think ill of me" after the queens assasination possibly.

p195- After seeing her father home for a business convention, Farnese is told to throw away her rabbit, one held dear to her, and she casts it in the flame.  The second I read that I thought of the Great Eclipse, and the choice Griffith made.

p196- Farnezes tells Serpico to stay away, or she will burn him too.  Ridiculously similar to Griffith when he tells guts to stay away, if he touches him now...(volume 12 pic 84-86)

These are just a few of the examples I wrote down.  I look at the Farnese flashback and I see there are obvious holes (ie Farnese and Serpico are related) but I view them not as holes but as a guide to Griffith and Guts' relationship.  While I may certainly be wrong about Guts being the bastard son of fate, I do not think I am wrong that there is a strong connection between Farnese and Griffith, and Guts and Serpico.

Offline himura_kenshin

Re:The Bastard Son of Fate
« Reply #4 on: September 09, 2003, 10:16:11 PM »
Wow... it sounded like a kind of neat idea with a weak argument at first, and not all of those references are very strong arguments, but some of them... and all in combination, that's a really neat theory. Honestly, i don't think it was much more than an analogy or a similarity to make it interesting. There seem to be too manyy differences for it to be a parallel of any kind. For one thing farnese was weak and couldn't protect herself. Grif could. Farnese was unstalbe, confused, maybe even had a bit of a developing alter ego. Griffith was calm, cool, in control, knew his goals and stuck with them, but a turn of events landed him as a god hand instead of a king. Serpico was rather quiet and accepting of his servituded and ill treatment. Grif always treated Guts very well, and Guts never would've put up with the treatment from grif that serpico put up with from farnese. There are plenty of other differences too. It IS a really neat theory though, i never picked up on it myself. Oh and despite all my contradictions, i'll add one more thing in favor of the thoery. Serpico, when he was going to fight the kelpie, said something about not always being with farnese or there to protect her or somethign like that. I thought that meant he was about to die fighting when i first read it and i was thinkin' "NOOOOOooooo, don't kill of serpico, he's the best!". Looking at it from this angle though, it would be similar to Guts leaving grif. Though i don't forsee a serpico farnese fight :P.

Offline elhinnaw

Re:The Bastard Son of Fate
« Reply #5 on: September 09, 2003, 11:08:09 PM »
haha I swear this is the last time Ill reply.  I dont think  these differences between Farnese and Griffith make the arguemnt any less, I think that these differences provide another light looking at Griffith.  A lot of people may think that they are two different people, but the way i see it, they are two people who commit the same actions, but who Miura portrays in a differently.

Griffith was cool and calm about his dreams, except for those times when the small boy was killed, and after he is freed from the dungeon.  Serpico is accepting of his ill treatment, but one of the points I was trying to make is that Serpico doesnt view them as that ill, just as Guts didnt view how Griffith treated him as that ill.  But you could also look at the way Griffith treated Guts as a harsh master who made his soldier do the hardest tasks, do the worst jobs, even tho Guts almost got himself killed on several occasions.  People just dont view it that way because of the way Miura originally portrayed it.

I just think that there were too many similarities and that it was quite indepth and long for just a flashback.  And everything done in a story is done for a reason.  I think if we look at Farnese and Serpico as a lens towards looking at Guts and Griffith, the discrepancies in my arguement actually turn into things that will happen in the future or things that we never knew about Guts and Griffith.

Offline Aho411

Re:The Bastard Son of Fate
« Reply #6 on: September 10, 2003, 01:28:09 AM »
Your theory has some good points, but in some parts you are just cramming squares into circular holes. The fact that Serpico is beat up by some bullies and is lying in the snow is not quite the same as when Guts is lying under the full moon after having killed the only father he ever knew, and being hunted down by the men he has gone to battle with, and being on the brink of death after plunging down a huge cliff. The point about the rabbit being like the ecclipse is WAY too much of an over analyzation. Its just a stuffed animal, even if it meant something to her. More than anything the rabbit is a representation of the relationship she wanted with her father. When he asks her to burn it, it is merely a confirmation of the truth, that they don't really have a relationship. "Stay away or I'll burn you is not equivalent to when Griffith thinks "Don't touch me" prior to the Ecclipse; the degree of emotion between those two is astounding. The fact that Griffith and Farnese have the same kind of hair is not evidence of anything. By the same standards Zodd in many ways is like Guts, they have huge swords, and black spiky hair. The first time Zodd is introduced he is doing what Guts always does, holding back an army on his own. MAYBE THEY ARE BROTHERS?????! Many of the characters in Berserk parrallel each other. But I do not see Serpico and Farnese as a direct reflection of Griffith and Guts' relationship. The argument can be made that there are things in common, there are, but I do not feel that Miura has presented their relationship in such a way that you are supposed to instantly think "Oh its Griffith and Guts." The argument can easily be made that their relationship is like Casca and Guts, or even Griffith and Casca. Their relationship in itself is its own relationship. One thing to note, I can only think of one time when Miura has done this, but I can also only think of one time when Miura has CLEARLY tried to parralell a relationship between characters. When Guts is preparing to assasinate Yurius, and he sees Adonis and Yurius training. Guts flashed back to his training with Gambino. And after he kills Yurius and is injured in the sewer, he dreams about a monster killing Gambino and then himself, and the monster bearing his face. At that point it is clear that Yurius is like Gambino, and Adonis like Guts as a child. And in both instances Guts has been the killer.

medievald00d

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Re:The Bastard Son of Fate
« Reply #7 on: September 10, 2003, 02:49:37 AM »
I would just like to point out that the monster does not bear his face in the manga, but it bears donovans (i think)

I like elhinnaw's idea, but it needs more refinement

Online Walter

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Re:The Bastard Son of Fate
« Reply #8 on: September 10, 2003, 03:10:59 AM »
I would just like to point out that the monster does not bear his face in the manga, but it bears donovans (i think)
... Look again.  If you really want it pointed out, look at the bridge of the nose.  
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medievald00d

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Re:The Bastard Son of Fate
« Reply #9 on: September 10, 2003, 04:25:36 AM »
whoops, I must have been thinking of something else. Just checked it, you guys are right.

Offline elhinnaw

Re:The Bastard Son of Fate
« Reply #10 on: September 10, 2003, 02:26:40 PM »
I make my comparisons of the 2 pairs because they replicate trademark qualities in both Griffith and Guts.  Whether you want to admit it or not, Griffith's hair is one of his trademarks, as well as destroying something dear to him, and the phrase "you belong to me."  

Comparing 2 characters because they have similiar traits is stupid, but comparing 2 characters because they have similiar traits that define them in the story is quite valid.  Comparing Guts to Skull Knight because they both have swords would be stupid (just as comparing Zodd to Guts because they have black hair is stupid) but comparing Guts to Skullknight because they both fight the God Hand is quite valid.  Im not just grabbing at straws here, but if we disagree that you cant compare two characters based on trademark traits, then our arguements are lost on eachother (adamh411)

Online Walter

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Re:The Bastard Son of Fate
« Reply #11 on: September 10, 2003, 02:47:31 PM »
Hey, Im totally with you on the parallels, however I don't think it's like reading MIURA'S SECRET CODE.  Repitition of themes is common in most literature and sometimes, even comics.

Other parallels are:[/b]
Guts/Gambino
Guts/Isidro
Guts/Farnese :Casca/Isidro (check that 218 translation)
Morgan/Isidro
Serpico/Judo
Gaiseric/Griffith

I really could go on... most are obvious.
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Offline eintrigga

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Re:The Bastard Son of Fate
« Reply #12 on: September 10, 2003, 03:05:31 PM »
Hey, Im totally with you on the parallels, however I don't think it's like reading MIURA'S SECRET CODE.  

The ability to make connections, whether in literature or comics, makes one feels smart. But is it useful?
The usefulness of recongizing parallels is to predict the behaviors/situation/fate of the characters.

sometimes, i think miura makes inconsequential parallels just to throw people off. I'm tempted to say that Miura takes the stance that parallels can not be truly compared.

i.e. Eclipse and the Mirror Eclipse. To say that the mirror exists does not mean the outcome will be the same.
up, up, down, down, left, right, left, right, b, a, start ....sh*t!

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Offline Smith

Re:The Bastard Son of Fate
« Reply #13 on: September 10, 2003, 03:36:37 PM »
I really could go on... most are obvious.

Well, Guts/SK and Flora/Schierke r the most obvious ones  :)
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Online Walter

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Re:The Bastard Son of Fate
« Reply #14 on: September 10, 2003, 04:18:00 PM »
The ability to make connections, whether in literature or comics, makes one feels smart. But is it useful?
The usefulness of recongizing parallels is to predict the behaviors/situation/fate of the characters.
No. It gives a new perspective on a character.  Maybe you should read more literature to convince yourself that you're smart.

Well, Guts/SK and Flora/Schierke r the most obvious ones  :)
Thanks. I dont know how I could have missed the fact that the most important character parallels are whichever one pertains to the recent chapters.  I must be drunk again.
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Offline eintrigga

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Re:The Bastard Son of Fate
« Reply #15 on: September 10, 2003, 05:18:52 PM »
No. It gives a new perspective on a character.  Maybe you should read more literature to convince yourself that you're smart.

I don't consider myself smart. But i don't think i want convince myself with books either.

i suppose my previous post was ambiguous in meaning. i did not mean to imply that the function of "making connections" as a device for vanity -- that is a an aftereffect that one may or may not partake in.

as for "a new perspective on a character", can you indulge me by clarify this? obviously i did not read enough literature to understand the function of "new perspective".
« Last Edit: September 10, 2003, 05:19:19 PM by eintrigga »
up, up, down, down, left, right, left, right, b, a, start ....sh*t!

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Online Walter

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Re:The Bastard Son of Fate
« Reply #16 on: September 10, 2003, 05:27:11 PM »
Nah, I'll let you figure it out.
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Offline eintrigga

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Re:The Bastard Son of Fate
« Reply #17 on: September 10, 2003, 05:51:43 PM »
Nah, I'll let you figure it out.
maybe, then, i'll be almost as smart as you ;)
up, up, down, down, left, right, left, right, b, a, start ....sh*t!

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Offline himura_kenshin

Re:The Bastard Son of Fate
« Reply #18 on: September 10, 2003, 08:21:56 PM »
I agree on the parallel's too. Most of them are interesting and quite valid comparisons. The least significant one, IMO was the similarity in faces in a picture, but who knows, it might have been intentional. Walter and Smith did bring up though, that Miura tends to throw in tons of parallels. I don't thing he necessarily does it to "throw people off", i think it's just something to make the manga more interesting. Developes similarities in characters. For example, i don't see Isidro growing up to be like morgan. Though the analogy you present here has tons of similarities. More than a lot of the mentioned parallels with the exception of the ones involving Guts/sk/grif/zodd/void/gaiseric because those are frequently debate anyway, and flora/Schierke because that's just a pupil/mentor parallel, as far as i know.
Since you've said defining traits are valid in parallel comparison, i'd have to stress most of the arguments i listed above. I think you've presented enough evidence to say that it's an intended parallel, but the evidence here pales in comparison to the implications of parallels concerning skullknight, zodd, void and gaiseric. Therefore, even though you've presented an interesting theory and there are a surprising amount of parallels between serpico/farnese and Guts/griffith, i don't think it holds any major implications on the future or history of Guts and griffith.

Offline Aho411

Re:The Bastard Son of Fate
« Reply #19 on: September 10, 2003, 09:21:09 PM »
Im not just grabbing at straws here, but if we disagree that you cant compare two characters based on trademark traits, then our arguements are lost on eachother (adamh411)

We're all grabbing a lot of straws. I just have a lot of faith in mine.

Offline Hi_There

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Re:The Bastard Son of Fate
« Reply #20 on: September 10, 2003, 09:31:14 PM »
Hello new guy here...  :)

Anyways, you might have a point there elhinnaw. Though the Parralels of griff/Guts Farnese/serp could be due to one of the basic sectors of human nature; Marster/servant a present theme in Berserk. The similarities you've presented are quite notable.

Though they might be vague, there are even more similarities. Griffith turning towards God hand(a much greater power than him) to realize his dream to be a king, seems similar to Farnese following Guts(someone more knowledgeble<sp> and stronger) to realize truth about the world and herself.

About Guts being a 'bastard son of fate,' you might have something there too.

Didn't Slann(Giant naked chick) say in vol 3:
... "if that man can join us too that'll be... amazing"

So there's some hints to consider elhinnaw speculation.

Then after Slann, one of the fat-head Godhand said, 'but he wasn't chosen by destiny... he can't be one of us' hence the 'bastard part in elhinnaw point. Guts has the potential to be one of them, but they just won't accept him.
As there power is to see, veave and re-weave the strings of fate, Guts seems to have the power to deny fate many times in his life and his 'power' has also influenced others to deny fate-like Casca.

Guts seems to have a power to match a Godhand, though in a reciprocal manner.

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Offline Aazealh

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Re:The Bastard Son of Fate
« Reply #21 on: September 11, 2003, 06:34:08 AM »
Guts has the potential to be one of them, but they just won't accept him.
As there power is to see, veave and re-weave the strings of fate, Guts seems to have the power to deny fate many times in his life and his 'power' has also influenced others to deny fate-like Casca.

Hi and welcome, it's not a matter of potential nor acceptance, Idea decided that Griffith would become a God Hand member, and through causality made that a reality.

Slann or Conrad have nothing to do with that, and they can't "weave the strings of fate".

Offline Hi_There

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Re:The Bastard Son of Fate
« Reply #22 on: September 11, 2003, 03:49:24 PM »
Sorry, I meant that in terms of their power, casualty didn't let Guts become a GH, so Guts may be considered more as a yin to their Yang. I mean he is still alive despite what fate had in store and he's still apposing them as Skull Knight is.

By potential I meant that he was amazing enough for a GH member to mention that he would make a great addition. Yes, Fate would try and give him death over and over, but Guts seems to have enough power to always fight back.
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