Was Femto in the right all along?

Obviously for a place adressed at skullknight.net, there's not going to be a lot of empathy for the God Hand, and especially not for Griffith. With the charisma of Guts, and the amazing feats he accomplishes, its hard to say anything against him. But what Im suggesting here is exactly that. I love Guts just as much as the next guy, but I personally think Griffith made the right choice at the first eclipse.

Being so driven, being so focused on one dream, and being better than any man at everything (aside from Guts at fighting), this man put his entire life into working for his dream. And not just hard work either, what he did was unparalleled by any other person at the time period (as we know). I think when he sacraficed the Band of the Hawk at the eclipse, he was getting what he had worked so hard for.

Granted, he's the one that messed around with Charlotte, messing up the dream he had built so far, but I dont see that mistake worthy of completely tearing down his ambitions and his dreams. Not only was his dream pure, but a modern idea in a time that was hardly that. ("not even a king should be able to live as he pleases")

People grow to hate Griffith/Femto because they loved Guts and the Band of the Hawk so much that they hated to see them die the way they did. But the truth of the matter is, aside from Guts, all of them would have died in battle for Griffith to get his dream. Just beacuse they didnt die the death they wanted, doesnt change this fact.

I am intrigued by Femto and Griffith, and I want to see how many people would agree or disagree with me that Griffith wasnt wrong in becoming a member of the God Hand. I know if I was in Griffith position I would have done the same thing.
 

Walter

Administrator
Staff member
You've come to the right place, my friend. You are in the company of Griffith's fanclub. If I'm not the captain, my co-admin is.
 

Miyu

I'm smiling on the inside.
I definitly see your point here. There is absolutely nothing wrong with having a goal and working towards it. It's just unfortunate that part of achieving it involves sacrificing your comrades to a band of flesh-eating apostles. I'm not a huge Griffith fan or Guts fan (I'm just a Berserk fan ^_^) but Griffith and Guts are the few ppl in the series who try to find and follow their own paths rather than conforming to the pecking order.

Corkus, Casca and even Judo all follow Griffith because their dreams are just to see their leader get his kingdom. Even then, they're not really dreams but merely following orders. I'd add more but I'm too tired to think right now.
 

eintrigga

Today's Yamaba?
elhinnaw said:
I am intrigued by Femto and Griffith, and I want to see how many people would agree or disagree with me that Griffith wasnt wrong in becoming a member of the God Hand. I know if I was in Griffith position I would have done the same thing.

i don't understand what do you mean by "right or wrong". Are you talking about ethics?

it's difficult to make a fair arguement about Griff, but this seems to be the correct opinion:

Griffith has never betrayed his dream. His intentions, no matter the effects, are for his own sake. If he did not sacrifice, then he would've betrayed his dream.

To quote a foreign BBS post: "Griffith is the child who refuses to give up his toy" Btw. Walter is right. Most people here aren't that judgemental about Griff.
 
elhinnaw said:
Being so driven, being so focused on one dream, and being better than any man at everything (aside from Guts at fighting), this man put his entire life into working for his dream. And not just hard work either, what he did was unparalleled by any other person at the time period (as we know). I think when he sacraficed the Band of the Hawk at the eclipse, he was getting what he had worked so hard for.

Given Griffith's circumstances, it is very easy to sympathize with him. The tools he has used his entire life to achieve have been ripped away from him in an instant. From Griffith's perspective what he did was not wrong, because these men were willing to die for him anyways. But these men, did not stand still and give their lives up while being slaughtered by Griffith's new "family". Griffith's ambition was unwavering, except for one instance, which is why he did what he did. However, his actions were selfish and destroyed the lives of thousands of men, and the lives of those intertwined with them. Could there have been another way? I feel Griffith could have easily said, "No, the cost is too great. I will find another way to achieve my dream." And this is where Griffith fails the "hero" test. It would have been much harder and taken much longer, but I feel that Griffith would have been able to find a way to get better, and maybe even fight again. And seeing now that in the world of Berserk there is magic and lots of things like that, I certainly see it as being within the realm of possibility. And that easily everything could have been different. I can sympathize with Griffith, simply because I would do the same thing in his situation, but what he did was still reprehensible. I'm glad he did it though, cuz the story woulda gotten really boring. You contend that Griffith was better at everything than any man, except for fighting with Guts. I will contend that Guts was not only his equal but also his superior. Guts ability to think his way through a battle is amazing. His fighting ability is second to no human, and is above that of many non-humans. He himself has become a monster of some sorts. I would like to see what Guts could do with his own army.
 
There seems to be a constant failure to see the abstract with a few people that respond to my 2 posts.

The Band of the Hawk in the circumstance of the great eclipse did not stand still and get slaughtered. But isnt it fair to say that if anyone of them saw an arrow coming towards Griffith in battle, they would step infront of it? If someone makes a choice that they are willing to die to make this man's dream come true, that decision stands whether its on the battlefield or on a field of demons. Griffiths actions werent selfish, his actions were for the sake of his dream, and they have always been like that. Furthermore, I dont think any member of the Hawks would ever think Griffith would choose them over his dream, so saying he has selfish actions is quite irrelevant.

Could there have been another way? Sure, just like there could have been another way to earn the money rather than sleeping with Gennon. But this was a way he could get further along in his dream with minimal risk to losing it. Same old same old Griffith. And would ever Griffith say "No the cost is too great" in relation to his dream? it seems as tho you are dreaming of a Griffith that isnt there.

As far as hero's are concerned, its pointless and a waste of time to argue over it since everyone has their own definition of a hero. You (adamh411) regard Guts as a hero because of his fighting skill. I regard Griffith of a hero because of his determination.

What I meant by right or wrong is that I have talked with a lot of people that say Griffith is immoral for making the desicion he did, and I always thought it in the right.

Im still new here, and from talking with my friends who love Guts and hate Griffith, along with the skullknight.net, I wasnt sure if I was going to get blazed for posting this.
 
elhinnaw said:
Griffiths actions werent selfish, his actions were for the sake of his dream, and they have always been like that. Furthermore, I dont think any member of the Hawks would ever think Griffith would choose them over his dream, so saying he has selfish actions is quite irrelevant.

As far as hero's are concerned, its pointless and a waste of time to argue over it since everyone has their own definition of a hero. You (adamh411) regard Guts as a hero because of his fighting skill. I regard Griffith of a hero because of his determination.

Listen clown, don't accuse me of being unable to see abstract thoughts, because none of your ideas are very abstract to begin with in the first place. If you want me to 100% agree with you it isn't going to happen, and this is my opinion. If you look at Guts' leadership qualities, and the fact that he puts himself on the line for those he cares about, that is why I view Guts as a hero. And as far as determination goes, no one is more determined than Guts. Now, if you don't think killing 1000s of men for your own dream is selfish, I don't know what is. It's not like his dream is the same dream as millions of other people. It is HIS dream alone. Do you honestly think what Griffith did was the RIGHT thing to do? By most morale standards, the whole is greater than the individual. If one has to die to save the lives of thousands, that is usually a given. To be fair, Griffith hasn't really done anything evil since he has become Femto besides raping Caska. So far in his reincarnate form he is same old Griffith, fighting in a war. What Griffith does with his power is his own decision, but according to Schierke I believe, he is the hawk of darkness leading the blind white sheep to their doom.

-Edited cuz even I don't agree with myself
 
M

medievald00d

Guest
There is no true right or wrong in a story like berserk.
We could regard both Griffith or Guts as heros, for different reasons. Muira has created Berserk from Guts' point of view, thus, most people are inclined to show sympathy for Guts. Griffith did nothing wrong, as he did what anyone would expect him to do. I dont see how Adam411 could "sympathize" with Griffith; as he resembles every quality anyone would respect. Personally, I respect both Guts and Griffith equally, as they both have qualities worthy of respect.

This slightly parallels to our conflict in the Middle East; no one is truly right, nor is everyone wrong, it is only a difference of views. We view the story from the American point of view (we being americans), therefore we are inclined to show sympathy for our men out there in the Middle East. Yet families in the Middle East see their husbands and fathers get slaughtered by American troops, and they show sympathy for their cause.

The whole is greater than the one? Thats Communist thinking buddy, in America, land of capitalist pigs, its all about steping on the shoulders of the working class to get what you want. Griffith would be a true American if he lived in our time

--Edited after reading Adam411's post
 
That is also possible. What do you disagree with? Hmm, after rereading my post, I am completely wrong about the following, my argument that Griffith took the easiest way out. I'm sure that was a hard-drawn decision for him to make, its been awhile since I read volume 12-13.
 

Walter

Administrator
Staff member
I feel Griffith could have easily said, "No, the cost is too great. I will find another way to achieve my dream."

You lose your argument right here. Causality man, causality.
 
Here is the thing about Causality. I'm still quite hung up on it. When Causality is referenced in regards to Berserk, it isnt the same as causality as what I just looked up on dictionary.com right? Is Causality the principle that all things must happen and will happen for a reason? And that this is in turn is all guided by Idea? Thats kind of the same thing as fate right? And if that is the case, then what Griffith did, was the only thing that Griffith could do, because that was what was supposed to happen? Causality is crazy.
 

Griffith

With the streak of a tear, Like morning dew
Walter said:
You lose your argument right here. Causality man, causality.

Gross, considering a major message of the story, if not the whole point, is “FUCK FATE!” I don’t see much reason to clinging to causality like it should guide one’s view of the series. Especially since it’s real function may just be getting debunked in the end. Why follow a rule meant to be broken? Hell, it has been already, *cough* The Count *cough*. As it is, causality isn’t even so rigid; God Hand themselves say unpredictable things can happen, if only rarely. And just recently Flora herself said she thinks that people do have choices in causality. “It’s not a perfect circle, it’s a spiral” I say, the plot is not causality, causality is merely a device of the plot. Anyway, if it were true that Griffith didn’t have a choice, then he’d be pretty fucking boring, and Berserk would be too (except for all the killing and stuff).

-Concerned Reader In Cali
 

Lliugusamui

around the corner
Griffith is a very peculiar character. In the Band of the Hawk arc, we see he could do anything for his dream, whih has to be done by the Law of Causality.
But, as says Griffith(co-admin) about the Causality and Fate that are blinding people, Griffith's dream can be fucking meaningless. When he's about to die, Griffith realises he may have followed a blind path, and when he becomes Femto, he thinks of Guts as the only one who made him forget his dream. Imo, Griffith - being a hell of a man - has always been considered as a super-harismatic leader, someone more worthy than the others. But seing how his relationship with Guts grew, I think he had a psychological problem, a lack of sympathy and careness.

When someone says he did the right choice because all the Hawks were prepared to die for his dream, it's totally wrong. Many had plans for the time when Griffith should have become King of Midland, they followed Griffith because they were sure he would lead them to glory. So when they realized his point was to become a demon King, it has nothing to do with the Band of the Hawk.

But Griffith plunged into his dream deeper and deeper. The moment when he became Femto was a point of 'non-retour' about his dream. He has been beginning believing his dream was meant to be realized by the Causality, but he's a tool of Idea in my mind. Though, I love his chracter and I trhink there's many things left to happen now about Guts and him. The story is far from finished as says Miura, and the positions of the 2 principal characters arent immuable imo.

Guil
 
pheonixfenix said:
Griffith did nothing wrong, as he did what anyone would expect him to do.

If raping Caska is not a bad thing, then there is no point to debate further...

Yes, i understand that Griffith is left with no choice, either he achieve his dream or he himself would be dead, there would be no returning back as Conrad said. But is there a need to rape a woman in front of a person whom was once ur closest friend? One thing that really make me dislike him is that he feel absolutely no remorse for all the things he had done, he just treat the hawks like stepping stone to his dream, and i cant understand how u respect a person as a hero who say (in vol3), "Dont wriggle like a worm in front of me..." to a person that he had cause so much misfortune on!


I m not trying to say how evil he was, but he is not the person u can rely on, he will sarcrifice everything just to achieve his goal...


Btw if u yourself were dragged into the eclipse, i wondered would u still treat him a hero and say, "Come monster eat me! I m ready to sarcrifice myself for his dream..." ::)
 

eintrigga

Today's Yamaba?
Man, i thought i would never participate in a morality thread....

While i would agree with most of your points, i still think your argument is somewhat hazy. (Yeah, i'm a dumbass, you just have to break it down for me.) When you speak of moral judgment of Griff in the sacrifice, you said "in the right". Do you actually mean to say that Griff is moral in his choice?

elhinnaw said:
What I meant by right or wrong is that I have talked with a lot of people that say Griffith is immoral for making the desicion he did, and I always thought it in the right.

As difficult as it may be, you should define immorality in order to strengthen your argument. Berserk is famous for its moral ambiguity.
 

Walter

Administrator
Staff member
Griffith said:
God Hand themselves say unpredictable things can happen, if only rarely.
What they say is that they can't forsee "all things". I.E. Femto was born, Guts and Casca escaped, no real loss for the plan. And sure, causality failed to work in the Count's scenario, a lowly apostle eclipse. Darn, once again, no real loss for the major plans. Causality would be stronger around Griffith, he's been "destined" to rule for just under 1000 years now.

And just recently Flora herself said she thinks that people do have choices in causality.
Of course everyone has a choice. However, people have been conditioned their entire lives to make the choice that Causality has been leaning them in the direction of.

Anyway, if it were true that Griffith didn’t have a choice, then he’d be pretty fucking boring, and Berserk would be too (except for all the killing and stuff).
SIGH.
 

Lliugusamui

around the corner
Grifth said:
there is no evil or good just diferent points of view. think about it
This is a thing often said nowadays, and it isn't wrong.
HOWEVER, letting such ambiguity isnt good for society, hence the usefulness of religions, cause if you kill someone and says it is good for you because the guy was on your girl or he stole you - a thing he could see good for him cause he didnt have what he stole, money or the object in itself -.

Our dying societies need morales, or else its gonna be real chaos in some years, which will be followed by destruction or emergence of another society (like for Antique Grece who was turning into real bullshit/orgies/etc).

So, well, I also think good and evil are notions who cant fit our society now. But morale is needed... the fact all the violent ("bad") people grown by the society are pathologically deficients. That's why governments should regulate the problem in prevention instead of repression (which can be inevitable though in the state of the situation ).

I dont remember who said that, its perhaps Freud or Kant, that if you want to elude social problems and all you should make people think differently. A thing realisable by this exemple : there are golden fishes in an aquarium, but the water is dirty and they kill each other. If you take the fishes and put them in another aquarium with good water, the problem wont be resoluted cause it dwells in the fishes themselves.

We could relate this to Berserk. Griffith is some sort of Big Apple Fish leading all the fishes ( taka no dan ), and he is miracleously cleaning the water on and on. But nothing is changed, when the eclipse occurs, its as Griffith stopped to clean the water and even dirtyen it.

Blabla rox no
Guil
 

eintrigga

Today's Yamaba?
Grifth said:
there is no evil or good just diferent points of view. think about it

Aquedesin said:
morality is not absolute...

I don't want to get into a conundrum of ethical arguments, but certain views are more valid than others (One can take the view that invisible monkeys rule the world -- do you think you would respect that view?).

elhinnaw seems to claim that his moral perspective is better/more correct then his friends. That's what i'm interested in. I want his reasoning
 

Hi_There

Born to be MILD!
Morality is based off the human condition in a society. However, as you can tell, there are even individuals that have more power than the human society in Berserk. Also it's the human shadow that defines the Berserk world not Human morality(It was the human shadow, that created their desired god).

Since God is a Giant lump of monster flesh, its safe to say that Causality runs the Berserk world

Griffith is the epitome of Causality at work. So in human moral terms, Griffith maybe wrong, but in the Berserk world, he is probably more on the right side.

He doesn't even have to feel guilt especially since he met God and it is evil.

Now if we lived in a society based on fate, Gutts would be viewed as the big evil demon.

Griffith must chose to sacrifice because he is the epitome of causality, and Gutts denies fate. There's the major conflict of the story which is Man vs fate in the context of the Human condition.
 

Makkuro

El pueblo unido jamás será vencido!
eintrigga said:
I don't want to get into a conundrum of ethical arguments, but certain views are more valid than others (One can take the view that invisible monkeys rule the world -- do you think you would respect that view?).

Invisible monkeys ruling the world is not an ethical standpoint. Wether or not it's right for invisible monkeys to rule the world, however, is.
 
First off, every person thinks that their own moral beliefs are the right ones.

But every situation and in every story in life, theres what appears to be going on, and what really goes on. Just as in Plato's cave, there are those in the light, and there are those facing the wall. I think my beliefs are more valid because I think I am a person in the light (granted I could be full of myself) and its quite obvious that there are people who are still facing the wall. I dont want to waste time arguing with people with people who can only see what appears to be going on, I like exchanging ideas with people that see whats really going on, because they are making informed judgements.

Let me take an example. A man steals a loaf of bread for his starving family, and a man steals 3 TV's from a TV store. Are both men not thieves? Yes they are. But people get all upset about that statement because thief has negative connotations. "Yes they are thieves" is not a judgement, its a factual statement.

If the Band of the Hawk die in a battle field or in a field of demons for Griffiths dream, the statement is just that they are dying for Griffiths dream. Do I agree with Griffith? Yes. If I was Griffith would I make the same choice? Yes. Is what Griffith did moral? No one on this entire website can say.

As far as AdamH411 is concerned, if you want to call me a clown and try to flame me, go ahead. But you sure bent over easy and took a different tone with Walter. If you want to defend your opinion against me you better put up the same fight with anyone else.
 

Miyu

I'm smiling on the inside.
Maybe it's just my reading of elhinnaw's first post, but I think the main question he's asking is if Griffith was wrong in making his final decision to become a Godhand. I feel that some ppl may be straying from what he's trying to get at.

There is the question of moral obligations, but the rudimentary part of the question is the good of following your ambition through no matter what the cost. If you look at it in its simplest form, of course following your ambition is the most appealing and desirable option. But then you add all those other factors and that's when it gets all muffled and murky.

Unfortunatly our society is so focused on morals that we fail to see the big picture.

I'm still tired and will get no sleep >:(
 
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