Author Topic: Was Femto in the right all along?  (Read 15158 times)

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Offline Hi_There

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Re:Was Femto in the right all along?
« Reply #25 on: September 11, 2003, 05:38:05 PM »
Then towards Griffith/Femto personaly, I believe he did what was right for himself.
Selfishness is not much of an issue concerning him. Even the first time we see Griffith, he had those ambitions, and considered his comrades as non-equals.

Human Morality did play a part in Griffith's desicion to become Femto, in which he had to overcome that human side of himself to gain something more than any regular human(one of the cobblestones that paved his way to the castle). Griffiths ambition was greater than anything else to him, therefore I think he made the correct desision for himself.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2003, 05:39:16 PM by Hi_There »
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Offline Aho411

Re:Was Femto in the right all along?
« Reply #26 on: September 11, 2003, 05:55:37 PM »
I think my beliefs are more valid because I think I am a person in the light (granted I could be full of myself) and its quite obvious that there are people who are still facing the wall.

You did an excellent job of proving that you are in the light. I am in awe of your brilliance.

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But the truth of the matter is, aside from Guts, all of them would have died in battle for Griffith to get his dream.  Just beacuse they didnt die the death they wanted, doesnt change this fact.

That is the point, they all would have died in battle for Griffith. But why are they fighting for Griffith? It is not only for Griffith's dream, it is to see their own dreams out. Griffith's dream is a bonfire that strengthens the possibilites of their own dreams. They are fighting in battle to gain something, its a risk they are willing to take. If they knew that there is no chance at all that they were going to live to see their dreams, I really doubt they would have anything to do with Griffith.

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If the Band of the Hawk die in a battle field or in a field of demons for Griffiths dream, the statement is just that they are dying for Griffiths dream.  Do I agree with Griffith? Yes.  If I was Griffith would I make the same choice? Yes.  Is what Griffith did moral? No one on this entire website can say.

No one can say huh? You certainly seem to say something. Hold yourself to your own standards. Don't ask a question if the only answer you are looking for is your own.

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What I meant by right or wrong is that I have talked with a lot of people that say Griffith is immoral for making the desicion he did, and I always thought it in the right.

Let me ask you a question, did Griffith betray his men? I'd like to see you prove to me that he didn't. I will view betrayal in most instances as WRONG. If you think betrayal is good, great. He didn't betray his dream, but that is his dream. No one else's.

I don't even hate Griffith, at this point I'm playing devil's advocate.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2003, 05:57:00 PM by Adamh411 »

Offline eintrigga

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Re:Was Femto in the right all along?
« Reply #27 on: September 11, 2003, 06:40:35 PM »
Invisible monkeys ruling the world is not an ethical standpoint. Wether or not it's right for invisible monkeys to rule the world, however, is.

i don't see the difference between "ethical viewpoint" and just simply viewpoint. My point is that some opinions are more valid than others, once reviewed with rationality.

Maybe it's just my reading of elhinnaw's first post, but I think the main question he's asking is if Griffith was wrong in making his final decision to become a Godhand.  I feel that some ppl may be straying from what he's trying to get at.  

There is the question of moral obligations, but the rudimentary part of the question is the good of following your ambition through no matter what the cost.  If you look at it in its simplest form, of course following your ambition is the most appealing and desirable option.  But then you add all those other factors and that's when it gets all muffled and murky.  

Unfortunatly our society is so focused on morals that we fail to see the big picture.

I'm still tired and will get no sleep  >:(

I'm confused about your stance. Are you saying that there is a concept of Right/Wrong other than of Morality? That is also the point that i would like elhinnaw to clarify.
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Offline eintrigga

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Re:Was Femto in the right all along?
« Reply #28 on: September 11, 2003, 06:52:04 PM »

But every situation and in every story in life, theres what appears to be going on, and what really goes on.  Just as in Plato's cave, there are those in the light, and there are those facing the wall.  I think my beliefs are more valid because I think I am a person in the light (granted I could be full of myself) and its quite obvious that there are people who are still facing the wall.  I dont want to waste time arguing with people with people who can only see what appears to be going on, I like exchanging ideas with people that see whats really going on, because they are making informed judgements.


Elhinnaw. If you accept the Socratic stance, then no one is evil in so far as their intentions. It is the matter of their "sophia". In another word, you will have to argue that Griffith's choice is "better" for the sake of his soul. I do not see how the choice of sacrifice is "right" other than faithfulness to his dream.

Maybe one day you would consider making a topic about the friendship of Berserk based on the Symposium?
« Last Edit: September 11, 2003, 06:52:44 PM by eintrigga »
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Offline elhinnaw

Re:Was Femto in the right all along?
« Reply #29 on: September 11, 2003, 08:37:08 PM »
"Don't ask a question if the only answer you are looking for is your own.Let me ask you a question, did Griffith betray his men? I'd like to see you prove to me that he didn't. I will view betrayal in most instances as WRONG. If you think betrayal is good, great. He didn't betray his dream, but that is his dream."

Why cant I ask a question in order to find my answer? thats exactly what I did.  I asked a question based on a feeling I had, and I hoped thru arguing I could decided whether it was right or wrong depending on whether or not I could defend it thoroughly.  And you have made no point whatsoever to deter my mind the other way.  eintrigga is the only one whos even started attacking the premise of my arguements.  now let me as YOU a question adam.  Since when did Griffith EVER have loyalty to his men?  At what point in the manga would he ever have given up his dream for them? At what point in the manga did he ever even hint that he would? his loyalty has always been towards his dream.  The only point you do make (by no fault of your own) is that Griffith did have loyalty to Guts.  And he did betray guts.  But the way I see it is, He had loyalty to both Guts and his dream.  Unfortunetly for Guts, his dream wins that battle (and dont bother arguing there was another way, time cant heal the wounds that were inflicted on him)

as for eintrigga's post, Im not quite sure why I would have to argue Griffiths choices is "better: for his soul, but Im very intruiged at why you think that.  Also, your point about no one is evil as far as their intentions is a really good one.  But I dont quite accept that stance.  Griffith intentions all along were his dream, and they werent to harm anyone.  When he was with the Band of the Hawk, he never caused the death of any of his men (I know thats an arguable point but I mean he wasnt directly involved).  And so up to the point of the great eclipse he had pure intentions and he had no actions to take responsibility for (in my opinion).  and what I was trying to relate to in my other posts is that if the members of the Hawks are willing to die for his dream, then I dont see why the way they die would make a difference in they way we look at this fact.  This last statement of mine is what frees me into believing that his intentions AND his actions are not evil.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2003, 08:38:58 PM by elhinnaw »

Offline himura_kenshin

Re:Was Femto in the right all along?
« Reply #30 on: September 11, 2003, 09:41:48 PM »
wahh! i just read this whole topic and i don't even know if i can cram all of my disagreement into one post :P.

Is grif right or wrong and what is "right and wrong":

It seems to me, that a strong foundation which people base their morals is the golden rule. People experience discomfort when told of something they would not like to happen to them, and react by condemning the action. People don't usually like to be hurt, killed, lied to, harassed, etc. They look at these actions as wrong. People can disagree on what is "good" and "bad", but many opinions are standard among humans. Some people might claim that pain is "good". The vast majority will quickly withdraw or rephrase the statement if you put their fingers in a blender.

People have trouble evaluating right and wrong when there are both positive and negative effects, such as the conflict we have listed here. And to say if morality is or is not absolute demands a very prescise definition of morality. No reason to go that deep into it here though. Not that I see.

The debate that comes to mind concerning this question is: "Do the ends justify the means?".

Loyalty to his goal alone, by common standards, does not justify griffith's actions because loyalty to a goal, which could be considered selfish, is usually valued as a lower priority than human life, especially the life of comrades. What griffith displayed is betrayal, one of the more hated actions and most commonly perceived as "wrong" that humans can commit.

You made the point that griffith's men would've given their life for griffith's goal in battle, and were doing the same here. That's a weak point. There are several differences.

1.) Griffith did not fight along side them. He was perfectly safe while they fought.
2.) Griffith did not warn them, prepare them or ask their consent in any way.
3.) They did not share a common cause. Griffith wanted his own survival and the hawks wanted their own survival.
4.) Grif made the descision, they didn't.

The comradory of griffith and the hawks has clearly been broken. Comradory and a common goal are very important parts of loyalty. You are trying to maintain the idea of loyalty to griffith and his goal, without comradory. That just doesn't work. The moment griffith gave the hawks as a sacrifice, he no longer deserved any loyalty from them.

Also, there is an immeasurable difference between one of the hawks jumping in front of the arrow to save grif and grif pulling one in front of him to save himself. Someone who sacrifices themself can die more honorably that someone who is sacrificed.

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Invisible monkeys ruling the world is not an ethical standpoint. Wether or not it's right for invisible monkeys to rule the world, however, is.
He was making a point about standpoints in general, not just ethical standpoints. His statement was perfectly valid for the purpse he intended.

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You did an excellent job of proving that you are in the light. I am in awe of your brilliance.

The way he said it, he clearly wasn't trying to "prove" that he was.

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That is the point, they all would have died in battle for Griffith. But why are they fighting for Griffith? It is not only for Griffith's dream, it is to see their own dreams out. Griffith's dream is a bonfire that strengthens the possibilites of their own dreams.

I, though i cannot prove it, disagree. I believe most or all of the hawks would've died to save griffith in battle, therefore crushing their own dreams only to save him.

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Since when did Griffith EVER have loyalty to his men?  At what point in the manga would he ever have given up his dream for them? At what point in the manga did he ever even hint that he would? his loyalty has always been towards his dream.

Well, sleeping with genon or whoever could be considered as either loyalty to his men or loyalty to his dream by keeping his forces alive. It wasn't giving up his dream, but it was a sacrifice to keep his men alive. Anyway, you don't have to argue this, because i can already see that it might well have just been loyalty to his dream, just pointing something out. Oh also, fighting zodd wasn't particularly healthy for his dream, it could well have killed him as far as he knew. I think this was to save Guts, reconfirming griff's loyalty to him.

Now IF you figure in the eventual outcome of the realization as griffith's dream, the eclipse might have been well worth it in the long run. This however, is the age old debate of "Do the ends justify the means?" and can be debated either way.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2003, 09:43:02 PM by himura_kenshin »

Offline elhinnaw

Re:Was Femto in the right all along?
« Reply #31 on: September 11, 2003, 10:24:23 PM »
Himura:  You actually make some really strong points and I agree with you on everything you said except 2 things :

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Loyalty to his goal alone, by common standards, does not justify griffith's actions because loyalty to a goal, which could be considered selfish, is usually valued as a lower priority than human life

For some reason I just cant see this.  It sounds basically like what Adam was saying about betrayal.  But I dont see what Griffith did as betrayal.  While his comrades loved him immeasurabley, he did not return those feelings (with the exception to Guts).  This same situation is laid out with Gennon.  Gennon loved him, and Griffith used him.  Would anyone classify what Griffith did to Gennon as betrayal?

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there is an immeasurable difference between one of the hawks jumping in front of the arrow to save grif and grif pulling one in front of him to save himself

Why? What is the difference? Just because in one with honor and one isnt, in both cases, arent they dying for Griffith, and possibly his dream?

Finally, I want to restate that Griffith does betray Guts.  Griffith did have loyalty towards Guts (fighting with Zodd) and that he did betray him in all sense of the word.  My opinion: Achieving the dream outweighs the betrayal.

And one more thing:
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The whole is greater than the one? Thats Communist thinking buddy, in America, land of capitalist pigs, its all about steping on the shoulders of the working class to get what you want. Griffith would be a true American if he lived in our time

No one should be flaming Adam if what he says is communist.  To be honest, I get a little angered when you compare Griffith to a capitalist pig.  Griffith's dream isnt to attain money, his dream is to attain power and use it properly ("not even a king should be able to live as he pleases")  If Griffith sacraficed all those people for money or just to have power, Id be the first one against it.  Adam is 100% right that the whole is better than the one.  But there are exceptions to every rule.  I dont want to debate Capitalism vs Socialism (at least not right now) but you cant try to prove Adam is wrong by claiming he's communist or not american.

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Re:Was Femto in the right all along?
« Reply #32 on: September 11, 2003, 10:44:32 PM »
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No one should be flaming Adam if what he says is communist.  To be honest, I get a little angered when you compare Griffith to a capitalist pig.  Griffith's dream isnt to attain money, his dream is to attain power and use it properly ("not even a king should be able to live as he pleases")  If Griffith sacraficed all those people for money or just to have power, Id be the first one against it.  Adam is 100% right that the whole is better than the one.  But there are exceptions to every rule.  I dont want to debate Capitalism vs Socialism (at least not right now) but you cant try to prove Adam is wrong by claiming he's communist or not american.

Fine. He's thinking like a borg  ::)
I compare Griffith as an American, not a capitalist. Most Americans are driven by power or money, or both.

Griffith DID essentially sacrifice those people for power. The power to attain his dream.

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Why? What is the difference? Just because in one with honor and one isnt, in both cases, arent they dying for Griffith, and possibly his dream?
The difference is that in one case, they have a choice, and in another, they dont.




Offline Aho411

Re:Was Femto in the right all along?
« Reply #33 on: September 11, 2003, 11:19:59 PM »
When I say the whole is greater than the individual, this is what I mean. If you have to die to save the world, you should die. Thats all I mean. But I am a communist, right out of Korea. Not really, but I'll kill you. Not really.

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The way he said it, he clearly wasn't trying to "prove" that he was.

I was mocking him. Hey I'm God. :o Did you know that?

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I, though i cannot prove it, disagree. I believe most or all of the hawks would've died to save griffith in battle, therefore crushing their own dreams only to save him.

I also believe any of the Hawks would've died to save Griffith, for the reason that their dream is nothing without him. If they have to die, at least protect the dreams of your comrades.

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and what I was trying to relate to in my other posts is that if the members of the Hawks are willing to die for his dream, then I dont see why the way they die would make a difference in they way we look at this fact.  This last statement of mine is what frees me into believing that his intentions AND his actions are not evil.

Consider the episode in the manga where Guts and Casca are having the bonfire of dreams discussion.

Casca: It's true, each might have small flame and gather together. A small flame is easily put out. But if you join with a strong flame.
Guts: That flame is Griffith.

I will contend that the members of the Hawks are willing to die for Griffith's dream to protect their own. Without Griffith's strong flame, they are once again individual flames, that are easily put out. In battle if a small flame is extinguished, the strong flame is still there to keep the other ones alive. If they are all slaughtered, there is nothing for them to protect. Unless part of the Hawks' dreams involved seeing Griffith become a demon king, I cannot see how being sacrificed is the same as dying in battle for Griffith. They were willing to die for Griffith's dream....and that of all their comrades.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2003, 11:34:57 PM by Adamh411 »

Offline himura_kenshin

Re:Was Femto in the right all along?
« Reply #34 on: September 12, 2003, 12:37:37 AM »
First of all, ALL humans are driven by self-interest, not just americans. Capitalism is just an economic system that makes use of human greed.

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For some reason I just cant see this.  It sounds basically like what Adam was saying about betrayal.  But I dont see what Griffith did as betrayal.  While his comrades loved him immeasurabley, he did not return those feelings (with the exception to Guts).  This same situation is laid out with Gennon.  Gennon loved him, and Griffith used him.  Would anyone classify what Griffith did to Gennon as betrayal?

Summed up, all i was saying is that most people value the lives of many humans over the goals of one. That's all.

Most of us were too busy being grossed out that grif had gay sex with an old fat ugly guy to think about the ethics of it. But think if it had been some beutiful woman. Fakes caring about her for money, toys with her emotions. If betrayal isn't the right word, deception is. Do you think the hawks actually knew that grif didn't care about them?

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Why? What is the difference? Just because in one with honor and one isnt, in both cases, arent they dying for Griffith, and possibly his dream?

The honorable death is one thing. I'm having trouble stating this properly, but just having the choice is a much bigger deal than you're making it out to be. That's just from the hawks side. On griffith's side, it's the difference between killing and having someone die for you. Think of someone you would die for. Now put yourself in the position that they grab you, and spontaneously and unexpectedly pull you in front of them to take a bullet so they don't die. If that doesn't bother you, i can't very well make my point, but i really don't see how you could be ok with that.


Atually i just thought of something, it WAS betrayal, because if grif hadn't cared about them at all, he couldn't have sacrificed them!!! So there! MUAHAHAHAHAH!

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I was mocking him. Hey I'm God.  Did you know that?

I realize you were mocking him. I just didn't think the statement was deserving of mockery.

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I also believe any of the Hawks would've died to save Griffith, for the reason that their dream is nothing without him. If they have to die, at least protect the dreams of your comrades.

Good point. However, you brought up the idea that they are actually just following their own dreams through griffith in order to prove that they wouldn't have willingly died in the eclipse. But now that you've basically said they will protect griffith above themselves, the argument isn't really serving it's purpose anymore.

« Last Edit: September 12, 2003, 12:38:47 AM by himura_kenshin »

Offline eintrigga

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Re:Was Femto in the right all along?
« Reply #35 on: September 12, 2003, 01:42:30 AM »
When I say the whole is greater than the individual, this is what I mean. If you have to die to save the world, you should die. Thats all I mean.

So Guts and Casca should willingly give themselves up and be burned at stake at the faux-eclipse. I don't think your values are compatible with Miura's vision.
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Offline elhinnaw

Re:Was Femto in the right all along?
« Reply #36 on: September 12, 2003, 01:57:45 AM »
When I claimed that there is no difference between The Hawks dying for Griffiths dream in a field of demons or in a battlefield, only one person proved me wrong.  Saying that one is with honor and one isnt makes no difference whatsoever, its still dying for Griffiths dream, and I am right on that.

The ONLY person who proved me wrong was Adam who said:
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the Hawks are willing to die for Griffith's dream to protect their own. Without Griffith's strong flame, they are once again individual flames, that are easily put out. In battle if a small flame is extinguished, the strong flame is still there to keep the other ones alive.

That is why I am wrong on that topic.

But I still feel I am right about Griffith's choice.  Sure The Hawks meant something to him, but a Hawk was willing to jump infront of Griffith to save him. Griffith was willing to do no such thing.  And I bet the Hawks knew that.  They ALL knew that if it came down to Griffith's dream or them, he would choose his dream.  Thats why I dont see it as betrayal, and thats why I think he's right.

and I know Adam.  He will kill you.  Kill you all.  Really.  Didi mao baby

Offline eintrigga

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Re:Was Femto in the right all along?
« Reply #37 on: September 12, 2003, 02:11:58 AM »

But I still feel I am right about Griffith's choice.  Sure The Hawks meant something to him, but a Hawk was willing to jump infront of Griffith to save him. Griffith was willing to do no such thing.  And I bet the Hawks knew that.  They ALL knew that if it came down to Griffith's dream or them, he would choose his dream.  Thats why I dont see it as betrayal, and thats why I think he's right.


So you consent the idea of morality, in this case, to loyalty.

Having understood that, i can tell you that there is an (granted, sophistical) argument pro sacrifice -- if he doesn't, then the dead hawks will be betrayed. Griff obviously feels guilt for their deaths (ie his explanation for the Gennon prostitution). There is few worse deaths then a worthless death.
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Offline Smith

Re:Was Femto in the right all along?
« Reply #38 on: September 12, 2003, 06:22:12 AM »
That is why I am wrong on that topic.
But I still feel I am right about Griffith's choice.  

Nobody can say u r right or wrong... and so is Griffith choice, but the things he had done after becoming Femto show that his real character as a person... which is more of a evil side, this is what left me thinking whether is worthy to sarcrifice the whole army to achieve his dream. And who will know if he is the one that will bring the destruction of the whole world?


And...

But you sure bent over easy and took a different tone with Walter.  If you want to defend your opinion against me you better put up the same fight with anyone else.

You dont sound very satisfied dont u? Then y dun u ask Walter to change ur position into a moderator and then we will all keep our mouth shut...  :-X?


If u r asking for opinion there is no need to get pissed off, becz everyone here all had different idea, if u post this just for the sake of saying how right u r, then i better advise u not to start a new thread...
« Last Edit: September 12, 2003, 06:36:54 AM by Smith »
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Offline Aazealh

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Re:Was Femto in the right all along?
« Reply #39 on: September 12, 2003, 06:51:54 AM »
But I still feel I am right about Griffith's choice.  Sure The Hawks meant something to him, but a Hawk was willing to jump infront of Griffith to save him. Griffith was willing to do no such thing.  

Taking an arrow isn't always lethal, especially in the Berserk world (think of how many did Guts take). You also have to consider the fact that Griffith didn't sacrifice the Hawks to save his own life, but just to attain more power.

And how do you know that Gaston would have willingly killed himself just to make Griffith closer to his dream, did he tell you ?

And I bet the Hawks knew that.  They ALL knew that if it came down to Griffith's dream or them, he would choose his dream.  

When is it told to them ? I don't remember it.

Thats why I dont see it as betrayal, and thats why I think he's right.

Just look at the bigger picture man, without overanalizing it: Griffith is the bad guy, yeah he's an ambiguous character (that's why the story's good), but he's still the bad guy, crowned by the Idea of Evil.

Offline elhinnaw

Re:Was Femto in the right all along?
« Reply #40 on: September 12, 2003, 04:21:03 PM »
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Griffith is the bad guy

Miura makes him out to be that way.  It doesnt mean its the way it really is in all cases.

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the things he had done after becoming Femto show that his real character as a person

I thought you became a little bit more evil when you became a God Hand.  But that could just be because its more human traits coming out, or the true human traits coming out.

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You dont sound very satisfied dont u? Then y dun u ask Walter to change ur position into a moderator and then we will all keep our mouth shut

Last time I checked, you werent involved in anything between me and Adam.  If I want your opinion on the way I interact with people, you would have known by now.  I got pissed at his reaction to me tyring to prove he was wrong, and Walter telling him he was wrong.  And in the end, it was ADAM that proved me wrong.  Until I see the word moderator next to your name dont tell me what or what not to do in a thread.

Offline Smith

Re:Was Femto in the right all along?
« Reply #41 on: September 12, 2003, 04:26:13 PM »
Until I see the word moderator next to your name dont tell me what or what not to do in a thread.

Dun get me wrong, i m not trying to control u (nor would i even if i m a moderator)...

What i did is just to give a word of ADVICE  ;)
It piss me off when I see weaklings, it make me want to crush them

Offline Aazealh

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Re:Was Femto in the right all along?
« Reply #42 on: September 12, 2003, 04:46:44 PM »
Miura makes him out to be that way.

Exactly, that's why there's no need to analize again and again: because Berserk is a story by Kentarou Miura, and that Miura made him out to be that way.

Other cases aren't into consideration.

Offline elhinnaw

Re:Was Femto in the right all along?
« Reply #43 on: September 12, 2003, 05:21:15 PM »
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Exactly, that's why there's no need to analize again and again: because Berserk is a story by Kentarou Miura, and that Miura made him out to be that way

I dont know how if you want to stand by that statement.  If we all believed the author no matter what, Animal Farm and Catch 22 would be the dumbest books ever.  An author puts out a point of view and whether or not he wants it the audience interprets it in there own way.  Its not a dictatorship.  Unless your in communust Korea.  In which case they will kill you.

Offline Nadiaska

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Re:Was Femto in the right all along?
« Reply #44 on: September 12, 2003, 08:49:02 PM »

I hate Griffith, but taking off the rape of the Casca, really he did not have choice in the eclipse, but I do not find that the hawks same fighting for the dreams of Griffith, did not wait and would like to die of that cruel skill. The hawks were not alone the dreams of Griffith, but each member had yours proper dreams.  :'(

Offline himura_kenshin

Re:Was Femto in the right all along?
« Reply #45 on: September 13, 2003, 01:44:32 AM »
Hmm.. i just found somethign interesting. Go back to right before the eclipse. Griffy attempted suicide by jamming his neck on a sharp piece of wood just seconds before the whole thing started. He would've died shortly after, but then he changed his mind the second he had a chance to pursue his dream again, even at the cost of the hawks' lives.

Now since you don't think i've proved you wrong yet. Let me bring out some dictionary definitions.

Selfish: Caring unduly or supremely for oneself; reguarding one's own comfort, advantage, etc., in disregard, or at the expense, of that of others.

Griffith anyone? Doesn't get much clearer that Griffith's act was selifish. Feel free to debate this particular point, though I don't think it's possible within reason.

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But I still feel I am right about Griffith's choice.  Sure The Hawks meant something to him, but a Hawk was willing to jump infront of Griffith to save him. Griffith was willing to do no such thing.  And I bet the Hawks knew that.  They ALL knew that if it came down to Griffith's dream or them, he would choose his dream.  Thats why I dont see it as betrayal, and thats why I think he's right.

Betray: To deliver to an enemy by treachery or fraud, in violation of trust; as, an officer betrayed the city. 2. To prove faithless or treacherous to, as to a trust or one who trusts; to fail or desert in a moment of need. 3. To lead into error, sin, or danger.

Treachery: Violoation of allegiance or of faith and confidence; perfidious charaqcter of act; treason.

You seem to think that betrayal requires that griffith cared about them in the first place. Not by this definition it doesn't, it only requires that the hawks had faith in him. You think that the hawks all "knew" that grif would choose his own life over their own. How exactly do you "know" that? Is there some part of the manga i missed were all the hawks say in unison "We would all die for griffith and he wouldn't ever die for us, but that's ok!"

Even going by your definition, that it was only betrayal if he cared about them. Well then i prove that he cared about them, and you say he didn't care about them "enough" because he wasn't willing to die for them. So you're only "betraying" them if you were SO loyal to them before, that you would've died for them. Any less loyalty just doesn't hit the "betrayal" mark though.

Also, you seem to be saying that what Griffith did wasn't wrong simply because he was loyal to his goal. Ok, well if i set out with a goal to kill everyone and their dog, am i not a "bad" guy, because it's always been my goal and i was loyal to it?

Also, the argument about the bonfire and seeing their own dreams through, which you are accreditting as the only one to prove you wrong so far, was actually contradicted by me in an earlier post.

The thing about the "honorable death" was far from the strongest point i made, if you're going to tell me i haven't proved anything, i would much appreciate being contradicted with counterexamples of pointing out flaws in my logic or similar.

You still never responded to this either:
*quoting myself*
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Think of someone you would die for. Now put yourself in the position that they grab you, and spontaneously and unexpectedly pull you in front of them to take a bullet so they don't die. If that doesn't bother you, i can't very well make my point, but i really don't see how you could be ok with that.

Offline elhinnaw

Re:Was Femto in the right all along?
« Reply #46 on: September 13, 2003, 08:02:43 AM »
If you want to prove a point, your going to have to do better than tell me definitions from a dictionary.

You do make an interesting point about Griffith attempting suicide.  This is a man who lived a life for a dream, and only a dream. At that point, when he was already ridiculously feable, everyone had seen how weak he was, and after getting tossed out of a wagon had broken his arm.  His dream was over.  Adam said before there 'might have been another way.'  No. There was no other way.  So when someone presented the option to attain what he JUST recently had given up on, he took it.  He would have died anyway is just as useless an arguement as someone would have discovered America if Colombus didnt, so no credit to him.

Second, betrayal in all your well thought up definition fails to include a crucial point (and no I dont care if it came from a dictionary).  You cant betray someone unless they are under the impression that the action is out of the question.  ie a private in the military is under the impression that his general wont give them up to the enemy.  So if the general does that, then they feel betrayed.

Now Griffith never told the Band of the Hawk that he would give them up in favor for his dream, but when did he tell them that he wouldnt give them up for his dream?  A better question is what actions did he take that would lead them to think that he wouldnt give them up in favor of his dream?

And being loyal to a stupid dream (killing everyone and their dog) makes you loyal to stupidity.  Being loyal to a pure dream makes you loyal to purity.

The honorable death thing was by far the strongest point you made, because that was the only point you made that attacked near the premise of my arguement.  I logically showed how I got to my conclusion from my premise, so to prove me wrong in my (or in anyones for that matter) is excedingly difficult.  People get to wrong conclusions by starting with wrong premises.

And finally, lets not forget this.  The Band of the Hawk is a mercenary group.  They were compensated for their work.  Thats a wall that I dont think anyone here can tear down.  No matter what emotional attachements, were they not all tools?

And as useless as your point is about someone that I would die for, when I think about it, if that situation happend to me, I would honestly feel no hostility towards them, because I made the decision that I wanted to protect them even if it was my life that was sacraficed.  If they know this, and they pull me infront of that bullet, im still doing what i wanted to do.  But I just dont get the glory of having other people know what I did.  And doesnt that bring an interesting point up.  Speaking of selfish, If I am willing to die for a person, but only if i get the glory of stepping infront, how selfish would that be in relation to Griffiths "selfish" action?

Offline himura_kenshin

Re:Was Femto in the right all along?
« Reply #47 on: September 13, 2003, 05:27:32 PM »
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A better question is what actions did he take that would lead them to think that he wouldnt give them up in favor of his dream?

Specify these actions please.

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And being loyal to a stupid dream (killing everyone and their dog) makes you loyal to stupidity.  Being loyal to a pure dream makes you loyal to purity.

Perhaps i am misunderstanding what exactly griffith's dream is. I was under the impression that it was pretty much just to gain power for himself. Maybe i'm wrong, but if not, i disagree that his dream was pure.

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And finally, lets not forget this.  The Band of the Hawk is a mercenary group.  They were compensated for their work.  Thats a wall that I dont think anyone here can tear down.  No matter what emotional attachements, were they not all tools?

A stong point. I will counter it only with my opinion. I don't think someone who will put himself before his soldiers is fit to lead a mercenary band, army, or anything of the sort.

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Speaking of selfish, If I am willing to die for a person, but only if i get the glory of stepping infront, how selfish would that be in relation to Griffiths "selfish" action?
That kind of selfishness is a simple human instinct of wanting to be in control. Not a bad argument, but I won't debate this far because it's an attack on the hawks, not a defense of griffith, and the ethics of griffith's actions are what we are actually debating here.

Offline elhinnaw

Re:Was Femto in the right all along?
« Reply #48 on: September 13, 2003, 06:47:29 PM »
I was under the impression that Griffiths dream was to have his own kingdom, but to rule it in his way, which was how he ran band of the hawk and how he dealt with affairs.  'Even a King should be unable to live his life as he pleases.'

And seeing how he treats the dead spirits of his enemies, and how there is supposed to be a savior for Midland, I see Griffiths dream as only good, unless Miura is making a satire on the word savior and Griffith is just bringing the apocalypse.

As for my specification, I was asking YOU to tell me actions that Griffith took that would make the Band of the Hawk (not Guts) believe that he holds loyalty to them over his dream.

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I will counter it only with my opinion. I don't think someone who will put himself before his soldiers is fit to lead a mercenary band, army, or anything of the sort

So if you were in a chess game, you think a King shouldnt be put higher than a pawn?  Or that a general should go and die before a private?  I dont know how many games of chess or battles you would win with that strategy.

And as for the selfish debate, I merely brought it up to prove the hypocritical argument about calling Griffith selfish.

medievald00d

  • Guest
Re:Was Femto in the right all along?
« Reply #49 on: September 13, 2003, 07:14:54 PM »
hmm...interesting...chess...

once the pawn is entirely useless, it is at the end of the board. At that time, it is sacrificed to bring a more powerful piece into the game...Interesting analogy