Author Topic: Old Skully and Void Thoery with Page Numbers  (Read 5511 times)

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Offline krunkster

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Old Skully and Void Thoery with Page Numbers
« on: September 12, 2003, 03:09:35 PM »
This is old so don't bitch.
I'm posting it so others can use the page numbers for reference.
Plus it seemed relevant to all the other recent bullshit theories. ::)

----------------------------------------------------------

Fact: Approximately 1000 years ago... (v10c6p118-128)
King Gasaeric ruled the land, and became known as the king of the dead, and Gasaeris the conqueror. He wore heavy armor, and a Skull Mask.

Fact: He held a wiseman in captivity... (v18c6p107)
This man was tortured in the dungeon, until one day angels came to save him.

Fact: Four Angels descended upon the Kingdom... (v10c6p122-123)
They were sent to punish Gasaeric, and the King disappeared.

Theory: The wiseman summoned the Angels... (c216p7)
Well he's a wiseman, probably meaning magician, and he's got the best motive. Also Schierke explains that the summon spell "Four Kings" brings forth four angels from the astral world into the real through a mind longing for salvation.

Fact: A huge Sacrifice occurs... (v10c6p128)
These sacrificed were thrown to the bottom of this tower, along with all other evidence of King Gasaeric's rule. Each of the bodies we see in the pit is marked by the brand of a sacrifice.

Theory: Void becomes the first God Hand... (Interview with Miura?)
If the interview is correct then Void is God Hand number one, and if every 216 years after that a new God Hand is born, then that brings us almost a thousand years forward to when Griffith becomes Femto. And since those corpses were marked with the brand, it's logical to assume a God Hand was born. Most likely the wiseman, sacrificed the people he was originally trying to protect with the angels summon, in order to exact revenge on Gasaeric.

-----------------------------------------------------

The above are all the facts and theories I know of that are at least based on actually facts. But popular consensus and circvmstantial evidence can take us much farther (and well out into nowhere if we let it )


Maybe: Skeleton Knight is branded... (v24c7p147)
Flora all but says this to a shadowy figure that could only be Skully himself.

Maybe: Gasaeric was branded...
Well he was there 1000 years ago, and he did torture the wiseman, who presumably made the sacrifice.

Conclusion: Gasaeric became the Skeleton Knight...
Gasaeric wears the skeleton armor, Skully wears the skeleton armor... I mean come on! Seriously though, I think it's safe to say The wiseman made the sacrifice and became Void, Gasaeric escaped, but was branded. He put on his armor and began plotting against Void, while gaining power.
useless [guts Guts Guts Guts gahtsu gast Guts Guts goats gates gitesu]

Offline Franz

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Re:Old Skully and Void Thoery with Page Numbers
« Reply #1 on: September 12, 2003, 03:23:11 PM »
So then, when did the first apostle become an apostle? If I recall correctly (I swear!) that Zodd mentioned something like "not in 1000 years have I blahblahblah..."
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Re:Old Skully and Void Thoery with Page Numbers
« Reply #2 on: September 12, 2003, 03:35:15 PM »
Is this based on the junk by the Hawks, or the translations you can find from this site?

Offline krunkster

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Re:Old Skully and Void Thoery with Page Numbers
« Reply #3 on: September 12, 2003, 03:38:29 PM »
It is based entirely on crap, because that's what it is.
useless [guts Guts Guts Guts gahtsu gast Guts Guts goats gates gitesu]

Offline Graywords

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Re:Old Skully and Void Thoery with Page Numbers
« Reply #4 on: September 12, 2003, 03:39:39 PM »
Y'know, that brings up something that others have probably realized long ago, that I just now took notice of.

Flora seemed to be making those brand wards/effect dampeners like she'd done it a hundred times before, don't you think?  I don't see any way she would've instinctively known, even as a witch, exactly the best way to ward off the signal that a sacrificial brand gives...

So she *probably* has dealt with helping people with brands before... at least one.

And seeing as she's known Skully for a LONG time, and it's said that Guts' "path" is similar to that of Skully's, it seems possible, I daresay even *probable*, that Skully was branded, and Flora knew of ways to ward off the brand effects through learning with Skully.

Thoughts? ^^
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ゆだねろ~

Offline Smith

Re:Old Skully and Void Thoery with Page Numbers
« Reply #5 on: September 12, 2003, 04:36:11 PM »
Maybe: Gasaeric was branded...
Well he was there 1000 years ago, and he did torture the wiseman, who presumably made the sacrifice.

You ppl just dont get it, u cannot sarcrifice ur enemies except for ppl which is the most precious to u...
It piss me off when I see weaklings, it make me want to crush them

Offline Miyu

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Re:Old Skully and Void Thoery with Page Numbers
« Reply #6 on: September 12, 2003, 04:40:12 PM »
Y'know, that brings up something that others have probably realized long ago, that I just now took notice of.

Flora seemed to be making those brand wards/effect dampeners like she'd done it a hundred times before, don't you think?  I don't see any way she would've instinctively known, even as a witch, exactly the best way to ward off the signal that a sacrificial brand gives...

So she *probably* has dealt with helping people with brands before... at least one.

And seeing as she's known Skully for a LONG time, and it's said that Guts' "path" is similar to that of Skully's, it seems possible, I daresay even *probable*, that Skully was branded, and Flora knew of ways to ward off the brand effects through learning with Skully.

Thoughts? ^^

Oh, I like.  Since we haven't been able to see any part of SK's body (damn that armor) we can't prove that he has no brand.  The only thing is that didn't Puck say that SK is surrounded by elven magic?  Is that an effect of being such an old brand if he is one or something else entirely.  But I do like that idea.
That's Mrs. Miyu to you!

Offline krunkster

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Re:Old Skully and Void Thoery with Page Numbers
« Reply #7 on: September 12, 2003, 05:19:44 PM »
You ppl just dont get it, u cannot sarcrifice ur enemies except for ppl which is the most precious to u...

What part of "don't bitch" do you not understand? >:(

You presume to know who is precious to whom.
If Griffith had put Guts in a jail cell, could he still have sacrificed him.
blah blah blah and the jail cell was near the fucking lake and eclipse....
useless [guts Guts Guts Guts gahtsu gast Guts Guts goats gates gitesu]

Offline Aho411

Re:Old Skully and Void Thoery with Page Numbers
« Reply #8 on: September 12, 2003, 07:40:19 PM »
Quote
Fact: Four Angels descended upon the Kingdom... (v10c6p122-123)
They were sent to punish Gasaeric, and the King disappeared.

Regarding your theory. Who are the Four angels who descebd upon the Kingdom and punish Gaeseric?  When I first read that in the Manga, I was like, Oh its the Godhand minus Femto. But based on your theory, which I agree with many parts of, this isn't possible because the Godhand hasn't been "born" yet. So who are they? From what I know about Berserk mythology this points to the Cardinal Gods of the Vatican. There are 4 of them, and they have been referred to as the Kings of the World. At least in the character section. If this wiseman was a magician, I can see how he would have the ability to summon these Gods, like Schierke can. But why do they help him? Is this wiseman Void? And if the descending of the Angels lead to the creation of the Godhand and Idea, why would the 4 Kings be a part of it? Or were they? Too many questions.

Offline krunkster

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Re:Old Skully and Void Thoery with Page Numbers
« Reply #9 on: September 12, 2003, 09:11:27 PM »
Regarding your theory. Who are the Four angels who descebd upon the Kingdom and punish Gaeseric?  When I first read that in the Manga, I was like, Oh its the Godhand minus Femto. But based on your theory, which I agree with many parts of, this isn't possible because the Godhand hasn't been "born" yet. So who are they? From what I know about Berserk mythology this points to the Cardinal Gods of the Vatican. There are 4 of them, and they have been referred to as the Kings of the World. At least in the character section. If this wiseman was a magician, I can see how he would have the ability to summon these Gods, like Schierke can. But why do they help him? Is this wiseman Void? And if the descending of the Angels lead to the creation of the Godhand and Idea, why would the 4 Kings be a part of it? Or were they? Too many questions.

I could answer all your questions by cutting and pasting the very first post, but instead I'll let you reread it and I'll go home for the weekend and relax. Peace!
useless [guts Guts Guts Guts gahtsu gast Guts Guts goats gates gitesu]

Offline himura_kenshin

Re:Old Skully and Void Thoery with Page Numbers
« Reply #10 on: September 13, 2003, 02:01:57 AM »
Thank you so much! This post is much appreciated.

Offline Smith

Re:Old Skully and Void Thoery with Page Numbers
« Reply #11 on: September 13, 2003, 02:50:42 AM »
You presume to know who is precious to whom.
If Griffith had put Guts in a jail cell, could he still have sacrificed him.

WTF would Griffith want to put Guts in a jail 1st place? If u want such a senseless point of view then i will help u to put it this way, let say the king wan to sarcrifice someone to be an apostle, do u think the godhand will let him sarcrifice Griffith or do u think it would be Charlotte instead huh?


What part do you not understand? >:(

I just dont understand y u claim yourself as a Bitch when u yourself is a Bastard?  ???

It piss me off when I see weaklings, it make me want to crush them

Offline krunkster

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Re:Old Skully and Void Thoery with Page Numbers
« Reply #12 on: September 15, 2003, 01:36:46 PM »
WTF would Griffith want to put Guts in a jail 1st place? If u want such a senseless point of view then i will help u to put it this way, let say the king wan to sarcrifice someone to be an apostle, do u think the godhand will let him sarcrifice Griffith or do u think it would be Charlotte instead huh? I just dont understand y u claim yourself as a Bitch when u yourself is a Bastard?  ???



Dear Smith,
     I am writting to tell you that I'm having a great time in oblivion.  Everything is great here.  I don't have to do any thinking or spelling, or even construct whole sentances.  Actaully I've lost all track of the time and meaning, I think I'll never come back.  I'm sure you won't miss me.
Sincerely,
     Your Brain.
useless [guts Guts Guts Guts gahtsu gast Guts Guts goats gates gitesu]

Offline Smith

Re:Old Skully and Void Thoery with Page Numbers
« Reply #13 on: September 15, 2003, 02:15:31 PM »
I hv no Brain.

How do u survive without that!  :o

I think I'll never come back.  

Oh great! bye!  :D
It piss me off when I see weaklings, it make me want to crush them

Offline *Gyom*

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Re:Old Skully and Void Thoery with Page Numbers
« Reply #14 on: September 15, 2003, 02:47:38 PM »
Oh, I like.  Since we haven't been able to see any part of SK's body (damn that armor) we can't prove that he has no brand.  The only thing is that didn't Puck say that SK is surrounded by elven magic?  Is that an effect of being such an old brand if he is one or something else entirely.  But I do like that idea.
I think that elven aura is caused by the dwarfish armor.

Also to adamh, I think it could have been the Four Cardinal Kings... why would they do that ? I think you base your thought of these Kings being well-intentioned, but I don't think they exist for either evil or good. Plus, Void could have summoned them to destroy Gaiseric's totalitaristic empire, what was probably not a bad thing.

Plus I don't think Void has created Idea nor these Kings.
Imo, Idea has been created during Gaiseric's empire when people were despairated and sought answers. So perhaps Idea was created some years before the "Angels Destruction Event", and He chose Void to be its first general...
The rest of the mystery lays in the relationship between Void and SK imo.

To Smith, why are talking bullshit ? I'm not a judge but your offenses arnt justified, imo...
Guil

Offline Majin Tenshi

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Re:Old Skully and Void Thoery with Page Numbers
« Reply #15 on: September 15, 2003, 04:55:05 PM »
How do u survive without that!  
 Is it really so much work to precede the "u" with a "yo" ?
Ok, so I leave and come back....

Offline Shurikn

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Re:Old Skully and Void Thoery with Page Numbers
« Reply #16 on: September 15, 2003, 09:17:18 PM »
If the wiseman=Void, maybe the wiseman have been tortured and that's why Void look like that.. his skin peeled and everything..
La culture c'est comme les confitures, moins t'en as, plus que tu l'étends...

Offline Aho411

Re:Old Skully and Void Thoery with Page Numbers
« Reply #17 on: September 15, 2003, 10:02:33 PM »
Also to adamh, I think it could have been the Four Cardinal Kings... why would they do that ? I think you base your thought of these Kings being well-intentioned, but I don't think they exist for either evil or good. Plus, Void could have summoned them to destroy Gaiseric's totalitaristic empire, what was probably not a bad thing.

You are right. The Four "Angels" may not have any allegiances to any side, good or evil. I feel in a way, its hard to even judge Idea as good or evil, Idea being the collective will of humanity...Someone mentioned this before in another thread. If there is a manifestation of all the negative thoughts of man, couldn't there be a manifestation of the positive thoughts? Perhaps my understanding of Idea isn't perfect. Also, does anyone think it is possible that Idea has been good in addition to evil in the past? Once again I'm assigning an alignment to things that may be neutral, but does anyone see that as a possibility?

Offline Smith

Re:Old Skully and Void Thoery with Page Numbers
« Reply #18 on: September 16, 2003, 12:22:35 AM »
If the wiseman=Void, maybe the wiseman have been tortured and that's why Void look like that.. his skin peeled and everything..

That is very unlikely, he might been tortured before recongnition like Griffith, there is no way anyone could hold ceremony with ur brain exposed, do u get what i mean?



To Smith, why are talking bullshit ? I'm not a judge but your offenses arnt justified, imo...
Guil


Well... it is him to start 1st isnt it? Gimme a choice and I would rather spend my time more meanfully than to waste my time critizing him...
It piss me off when I see weaklings, it make me want to crush them

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Re:Old Skully and Void Thoery with Page Numbers
« Reply #19 on: September 16, 2003, 03:30:58 AM »
Perhaps the Four Kings are the spiritual essence of the GodHand, so that one of them fused with the wise man and became Void. The rest later fused with other humans to become Conrad, Slan, and Ubik. This would mean that the fifth GodHand would have no spirit essence to fuse with a human, unless the other legend about five angels descending on Gaiseric's kingdom is true.

Gah! Madness! Make the hurting stop!

Offline Walter

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Re:Old Skully and Void Thoery with Page Numbers
« Reply #20 on: September 16, 2003, 03:57:31 AM »
Perhaps the Four Kings are the spiritual essence of the GodHand, so that one of them fused with the wise man and became Void. The rest later fused with other humans to become Conrad, Slan, and Ubik. This would mean that the fifth GodHand would have no spirit essence to fuse with a human, unless the other legend about five angels descending on Gaiseric's kingdom is true.

That doesn't add up. The four kings toppled Gaiseric's empire.  Void is the first God Hand. You're saying there were four Voids?

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Re:Old Skully and Void Thoery with Page Numbers
« Reply #21 on: September 16, 2003, 04:18:37 AM »
I was unclear. My apoligies.  My hypothesis is that the Four Kings existed as purely spiritual entities, and that one and only one of them fused with the wise man to become Void, making Void's initiation into GodHand the first. As a sacrifice, they laid Gaiseric's empire to waste, as it probably had meant something to the wise man. However, I hold more with the other legend about five angels descending on Midland to destroy Gaiseric's empire as it would leave four remaining spiritual entities to fuse with those chosen at a later time by Idea to be his generals. The four (or five) of them each had seperate identies apart from the humans they merged with to become GodHands, Idea merely chose certain humans to fuse with them either to ensure their loyalty to him or to strengthen them in some way. After all, without humanity, where would Idea be?

Offline Aho411

Re:Old Skully and Void Thoery with Page Numbers
« Reply #22 on: September 16, 2003, 05:32:12 AM »
I was unclear. My apoligies.  My hypothesis is that the Four Kings existed as purely spiritual entities, and that one and only one of them fused with the wise man to become Void, making Void's initiation into GodHand the first. As a sacrifice, they laid Gaiseric's empire to waste, as it probably had meant something to the wise man. However, I hold more with the other legend about five angels descending on Midland to destroy Gaiseric's empire as it would leave four remaining spiritual entities to fuse with those chosen at a later time by Idea to be his generals. The four (or five) of them each had seperate identies apart from the humans they merged with to become GodHands, Idea merely chose certain humans to fuse with them either to ensure their loyalty to him or to strengthen them in some way. After all, without humanity, where would Idea be?

There is no evidence to suggest something like that.

Herald of Galactor

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Re:Old Skully and Void Thoery with Page Numbers
« Reply #23 on: September 16, 2003, 05:46:57 AM »
Quote
There is no evidence to suggest something like that.

You are correct. That is why it is only a hypothesis(because I haven't been able to test it enough to call it a theory.) Actually, there's very little evidence period. Miura-sensei still hasn't given a good fleshing out of events from that time period, as it is referred to as legend by most of the people who bring it up. (Princess Charlotte, and I think Mozgus also called it a legend, have to look at the trans again.) So I have to speculate for now until the truth is revealed in its entirety. Though, of course, I don't have talk about it. I'll just read this thread for awhile and refrain from posting to it.

Offline LatchKeyKid

Re:Old Skully and Void Thoery with Page Numbers
« Reply #24 on: September 18, 2003, 07:59:04 AM »
About not being able to sacrifice your enemies - Perhaps if one's only dream/obsession is to take revenge on something, maybe that dream itself can become enough to sacrifice.  Just a thought  8)

As for Skull Knight/Void, Gaiseric/minister, I don't think it's as obvious as it seems.  For one, why would Flora, who seems to be as good a character possible within Berserk, side with a ruler who was supposed to be brutal to his people.  And would such a ruler really have a face she'd wish to see again?  

And where does Zodd fit it?  It seems he knows Skull Knight from when he was human (or both human?), so does that make him older than the first (current?) God Hand (Void?).  Maybe the correlation we should be making is Guts/Griffith, Skull Knight/Zodd, or does Zodd just know him because Skull Knight keeps crashing the parties?

And then again, the God Hand all call Skull Knight king, so maybe it IS as obvious as it seems.  I don't know, but It is the thing, besides maybe Guts shoving the Dragonslayer into Griffith's face, that I most want to see resolved.

BTW, first post... Hi :)