Berserk Art of Dark Fantasy:WoD(:DA) with a twist

So Gutt's turns to be the lycanthrope of the story apart being the main character as well.
Active at night, hard to permanently hurt him and with the weakness of a rage that can turn to frenzy if base insticts get stimolated.
And the background of this is a curse.
But he lacks bodyhair and the scene of transformation.
Another interesting twist is that of the armour, a knightly and chivalristic presentation or aspect of the werewolf myth.
The vampire can very well be Zodd, who presents what the lycanthrope version lacks: bodyhair, tranformation to a large-sizeed beast and without plate armour but with a more barbarian or savage outfit (the things Zodd lacks as a vampire, Gutt's countercompletes them).
Skullknight is there as a spectre and mages lie around as well. Inquisition and heresy dramas also.
Caska and Rickert stand as the human victimization view due to the tragic darkness of the world.
And don't forget the deamons and the other spawn apostles as well (though I ain't sure if the influence of the later derives more from WoD or the Chaos of the Warhammer)
So the world of darkness:dark ages still lies there as a whole.
In which of those artistic presentations do you think Miura has done well through the art of his manga(and which has failed as well)?

For instance:1 negative example: (To me) the human victimization(tragedy) doesn't convince me in the story, propably because the whole manga-story presentation has gone a lot super-powered indeed obscuring the importance of humans: the level of this is a minority to the whole of the story's composition.

Post your comments ;)

xechnao said:

In which of those artistic presentations do you think Miura has done well through the art of his manga(and which has failed as well)?

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This statement seems to imply that Miura tried to do those things. I disagree, and I've got only one word to say to anyone who thinks differently.

You disagree with what?
Can you give your point of view?
Where do you think Miura got his influences from and what figures his art presents?
I mostly see those dominent points common to those ones of our culture, as I mentioned .
Or by other words, the setting of our culture that goes nearer(looks like more similar to) Miura's art is what -the dark fantasy- I mentioned.
Do you see something else over there?

P.S.: Unfortunatelly I have no audio hardware so please type.

you're saying Miura is pulling Berserk from WHITE WOLF? Guts is a werewolf, only without the transformation part (thus not a werewolf at all)? Seems like you're grasping at straws boy....

Darok [Gloombeard!] said:

you're saying Miura is pulling Berserk from WHITE WOLF? Guts is a werewolf, only without the transformation part (thus not a werewolf at all)? Seems like you're grasping at straws boy....

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You are stretching too thin.
A painting of art you watch it from a distance, you don't observe it with nose touching it.

xechnao said:

You disagree with what?

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Miura tried to make a symbolistic representation of traditional Dark Fantasy elements. >:(

Can you give your point of view?

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Just did. ;)

Where do you think Miura got his influences from

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Blood Feast 8)
Gaikunan (That really long manga series) ???

and what figures his art presents?

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Why? -_-;

Do you see something else over there?

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Where? :-\

P.S.: Unfortunatelly I have no audio hardware so please type.

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That is truly ghetto.

krunkster said:

Miura tried to make a symbolistic representation of traditional Dark Fantasy elements. >:(

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I don't get it the way you post it. Do you agree with this or not? If you don't agree give your point of view, which means tell what do you think Miura tried to do.

Where Miura derives his ideas and elements from... who knows?

It seems to me that it's his own representation of dark fantasy, but driven by many many other sources than the idea of a dark fantasy.

I think the basis of the material he puts out has nothing to do with taking elements from old myths about werewolves or vampires, nor from games like warhammer etc etc.

To me what he puts out is the representation of the human condition. The entire story seems to revolve around the theme 'what is human?.' And unlike other fantasy fiction or stories which has the human condition as an sub-underlying element.
Miura refers to his 'human theme' quite often(every perversity, condition, weakness, scattered beliefs etc etc that could fit in his manga pages).

So Gutts becoming enraged and having a 'beast' within has a more base factor to the human condition than influence from just the mythological werewolf.

Miura is a very smart man-telling by the way he presents his manga. I have no doubt that he would draw upon psycological references and indepth symbolism instead of mimicking other works.

I think this is worse than the "Guts is an elf" theory.

Hi_There said:

It seems to me that it's his own representation of dark fantasy, but driven by many many other sources than the idea of a dark fantasy.

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I agree. But that doesn't necessarilly mean that what I said is nonsense.

Hi_There said:

I think the basis of the material he puts out has nothing to do with taking elements from old myths about werewolves or vampires, nor from games like warhammer etc etc.

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I disagree with you here big-time. How can you say "nothing to do"??? Please, explain.

Hi_There said:

To me what he puts out is the representation of the human condition. The entire story seems to revolve around the theme 'what is human?.' And unlike other fantasy fiction or stories which has the human condition as an sub-underlying element.
Miura refers to his 'human theme' quite often(every perversity, condition, weakness, scattered beliefs etc etc that could fit in his manga pages).

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Every drama does a sort of the representation of the human condition. Mangas(in general) have a story of the drama type so for Berserk nothing extraordinary here to quote.
But if you want to insist to Berserk through this matter (-or chatter ;) -) how well does he succeed to you (if this is the way you believe Berserk we need to talk about)?
What I can say about it is that Miura does present speeches about human feellings and he does present images of people and monsters, but his work is definatelly not the best(and I can say why- what is not good and why, at least to me).
Nevertheless, you are wrong to put it on top of others: have you seen or read "Blade Runner","My Enemy","Dr.Jekyl and Mr.Hide","Frankestein","Dracula","Wolf", just to name a few?

Hi_There said:

So Gutts becoming enraged and having a 'beast' within has a more base factor to the human condition than influence from just the mythological werewolf.

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The mythological werewolf had a base to the human condition as most things of myths, from the tales of Esopus and the ancient Greek mythology to begin. Only the contemporary legends fail to this one ;)

Hi_There said:

Miura is a very smart man-telling by the way he presents his manga. I have no doubt that he would draw upon psycological references and indepth symbolism instead of mimicking other works.

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He is the not only to draw upon psycological references and indepth symbolism. He is not the first to do this and not the last one I hope.
The question is how well done is his manga to you over here and why, be it positive or negative you comment(and please comments be specific points).

I agree. But that doesn't necessarilly mean that what I said is nonsense

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I never said that what u said was nonesence. I just said that the conceptual idea of a dark fantasy seemed minimal to the brunt of his material. It seemed more or less a starting point.

I disagree with you here big-time. How can you say "nothing to do"??? Please, explain.

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I said 'nothing to do' because he had established his own basis of creating 'monsters or demons' from the properties he's created in his world. It may seem similar to you, and a little too coincidental, but when you look closely, the nature of his monsters are quite basic, and trigger the basis of human fears. Getting devoured and/or defiled.

For example, an apostle is completely hideous, eats and devours humans as if they where a buffet and rapes/tortures them as though they were completely helpless. Quite Gruesome

A vampire draws blood out, can be quite seductive, beautiful even. Sometimes intricate magic is involved. The vampire is 'more complex' as a creature than an apostle and doesn't only have the purpose of instilling fear and discust onto a reader. A reader can easily sympathyize or even be envious of a vampire.

I'll rephrase what I said before, I think the basis of the material he puts out had NO NEED to take any elements from old myths about werewolves or vampires, nor from games like warhammer etc etc because his monsters are simply so basic to the idea of a 'monster' that to derive from other complex already made monsters is meaningless.

Every drama does a sort of the representation of the human condition. Mangas(in general) have a story of the drama type so for Berserk nothing extraordinary here to quote.

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This is the reason why he doesn't have to take from other 'dark fantasy' sources. Unlike 'other' Drama that does a 'sort of' representation of the human condition with all subtext and meanings and whatnot. Miura practically spells it in your face, that his story is driven by the human psyche and represented through the human condition. I mean even 'God' in that world was created by the human 'shadow'.

But if you want to insist to Berserk through this matter (-or chatter -) how well does he succeed to you (if this is the way you believe Berserk we need to talk about)?

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As a storyteller, I believe he's succeeded quite well(plot, characters, settings, themes etc etc). However plz elaborate ur point a little more...

What I can say about it is that Miura does present speeches about human feellings and he does present images of people and monsters, but his work is definatelly not the best(and I can say why- what is not good and why, at least to me).
Nevertheless, you are wrong to put it on top of others: have you seen or read "Blade Runner","My Enemy","Dr.Jekyl and Mr.Hide","Frankestein","Dracula","Wolf", just to name a few?

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I have seen and read 4 out of 5 of the stories you've listed(Blade Runner I have yet to see).
YOU are quite wrong to assume that I 'wrongly' placed Berserk above those stories, because it is MY OPINION and yes, I do hold Berserk above the stories you have mentioned, despite your condescending/elitist attitude.

The mythological werewolf had a base to the human condition as most things of myths, from the tales of Esopus and the ancient Greek mythology to begin. Only the contemporary legends fail to this one

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Yep, I never said that the Werewolf didn't have that base. However, I also think that Gutts and the story itself had those bases, so there seemed to be no need to 'borrow' any elements from other stories. It could have been derived from all the basics.

He is the not only to draw upon psycological references and indepth symbolism. He is not the first to do this and not the last one I hope.
The question is how well done is his manga to you over here and why, be it positive or negative you comment(and please comments be specific points).

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I never said he was the only one, but that factor does make for a good story, as to your other examples.
Personally to me, his manga is top notch.
If he wanted to represent the Human Nature in many aspects through means of a story, he's done the job very well IMO.

Some Specifics
-his drawings are very raw and fitting to its dark storyline.
-His scenes have no 'reprecussions'(for eg any rape scene and/or gruesome violence)

I love stories that deal with human nature, and Berserk represents it quite well.

-Human condition(Through Gutts, Caska, Griffith etc etc)
-His representation of human perversity(through the apostles, the King, Farneze etc etc)
-His representation of human beliefs/religion, the ugliness it shows(for eg. The Vatican and Mozgus)

*Representation of The human mind:
-Manifesting the human Imagination(Through magic, spiritual worlds, greater beings etc etc)
-Logic and harmony within the properties of the berserk world(How everything is related to one another, and how order in his strory takes place)
-The human psyche represented by the berserk universe(Corporeal world=consciousness; Astral world=Ego; Idea world=ID)

I'll stop at this point, as I haven't even scratched the surface.

Hi_There said:

I said 'nothing to do' because he had established his own basis of creating 'monsters or demons' from the properties he's created in his world. It may seem similar to you, and a little too coincidental, but when you look closely, the nature of his monsters are quite basic, and trigger the basis of human fears. Getting devoured and/or defiled.

For example, an apostle is completely hideous, eats and devours humans as if they where a buffet and rapes/tortures them as though they were completely helpless. Quite Gruesome

A vampire draws blood out, can be quite seductive, beautiful even. Sometimes intricate magic is involved. The vampire is 'more complex' as a creature than an apostle and doesn't only have the purpose of instilling fear and discust onto a reader. A reader can easily sympathyize or even be envious of a vampire.

I'll rephrase what I said before, I think the basis of the material he puts out had NO NEED to take any elements from old myths about werewolves or vampires, nor from games like warhammer etc etc because his monsters are simply so basic to the idea of a 'monster' that to derive from other complex already made monsters is meaningless.

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About apostles: this is the basis of most monsters of Chaos(warhammer) and actually I confronted apostoles with the Chaos of Warhammer. Vampires and werewolves I confronted with other makings of the manga. You still have to explain, otherwise I assume your quotation was wrong first place.

Hi_There said:

This is the reason why he doesn't have to take from other 'dark fantasy' sources. Unlike 'other' Drama that does a 'sort of' representation of the human condition with all subtext and meanings and whatnot. Miura practically spells it in your face, that his story is driven by the human psyche and represented through the human condition. I mean even 'God' in that world was created by the human 'shadow'.

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Every drama takes from somewhere, from some other source. The initial basis is the social life. When the drama is not contemporary it is based on some other work of the past. Berserk, over its most, cannot be defined as contemporary. Miura is based as such to other things, and this is not to quote.
However this is not (and cannot be) something negative at all(as per se) as you seem to want to counter-defend.

Hi_There said:

I have seen and read 4 out of 5 of the stories you've listed(Blade Runner I have yet to see).
YOU are quite wrong to assume that I 'wrongly' placed Berserk above those stories, because it is MY OPINION and yes, I do hold Berserk above the stories you have mentioned, despite your condescending/elitist attitude.

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By your logic YOU are wrong to say that I am wrong as this is my opinion. Please, be more serious. That is don't chat just for chat or defend against just for defend against.

Hi_There said:

I never said he was the only one, but that factor does make for a good story, as to your other examples.
Personally to me, his manga is top notch.
If he wanted to represent the Human Nature in many aspects through means of a story, he's done the job very well IMO.

Some Specifics
-his drawings are very raw and fitting to its dark storyline.
-His scenes have no 'reprecussions'(for eg any rape scene and/or gruesome violence)

I love stories that deal with human nature, and Berserk represents it quite well.

-Human condition(Through Gutts, Caska, Griffith etc etc)
-His representation of human perversity(through the apostles, the King, Farneze etc etc)
-His representation of human beliefs/religion, the ugliness it shows(for eg. The Vatican and Mozgus)

*Representation of The human mind:
-Manifesting the human Imagination(Through magic, spiritual worlds, greater beings etc etc)
-Logic and harmony within the properties of the berserk world(How everything is related to one another, and how order in his strory takes place)
-The human psyche represented by the berserk universe(Corporeal world=consciousness; Astral world=Ego; Idea world=ID)

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Thank you.

Hi_There said:

I'll stop at this point, as I haven't even scratched the surface.

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If you have more to add please do so.

About apostles: this is the basis of most monsters of Chaos(warhammer) and actually I confronted apostoles with the Chaos of Warhammer. Vampires and werewolves I confronted with other makings of the manga. You still have to explain, otherwise I assume your quotation was wrong first place.

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I did explain the possible developements of a monster and an apostle is of the most basic type that a child could have came up with it. (Mommy the monster will eat me)
Its simple logic-why need to derive from more complex creatures to create one so base? As to chaos in warhammer... notice how the story of curruption and magic originates from them? their concept is basic, a starting point from which to build. Anything 'evil' in the warhammer world(besides orcs) somehow originates from 'Chaos'. I'm sorry to tell you this, but their monsters are not hard to come up with.

Berserk monsters are similar, because they are simply as basic. They could be thought up quite easily.

About vampires, werewolves and Warhammer Chaos, you haven't provided a sufficient argument entailing that he 'must have' gotten his sources off of them.

Every drama takes from somewhere, from some other source. The initial basis is the social life. When the drama is not contemporary it is based on some other work of the past. Berserk, over its most, cannot be defined as contemporary. Miura is based as such to other things, and this is not to quote.
However this is not (and cannot be) something negative at all(as per se) as you seem to want to counter-defend.

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You state, but you don't give examples, you assume but there's no basis. Where is your assumtion with some points to back them up?

By your logic YOU are wrong to say that I am wrong as this is my opinion. Please, be more serious.

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I'm using your logic here. I've also taken extra steps to explain my point and have yet to hear a counter argument, aside from (no your wrong-*assuming here, assuming there* with no material to back up)

That is don't chat just for chat or defend against just for defend against.

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But that's what you're doing. I have my points, but you haven't elaborated on yours.

If you have more to add please do so.

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Berserk's structure.

-starting in the state where Guts has no left forearm, one eye, a giant sword, and him chasing apostles. Along with meeting the Godhand (vol 3) and his huge grudge against one of them(alot of 'in ur face' material bombarded in a world that was just introduced). Then the stroy reverts to the beggining of Guts' life where these 'monsters' aren't so common. His method created mystery(how those awful things in the first volumes came about) enticing the reader to read for further clarification.

Then his presentation of the characters were done very well. He shows exactly why they are in the band of the hawk, why Gutts is who he is, why Caska is that way, and Griffith too. Along the way, an interesting story unfolds that ties with Miura's magical/astral world to the corporeal world.

I would add more, but I think my current points are sufficient.

Listen Hi-There pal, you want to misunderstand all the time because you just want to say that Miura didn't get influenced from WoD or Warhammer. This could be another thread of your invention and initiation if you like. I started this thread just to ask if you find good points or bad about his art or his work of art(which means his manga). Cinema is art so I guess manga could be considered as art too.
Berserk is defined Dark Fantasy just as El_Cid is Historicall, Lord of the Rings Fantasy and Blade-Runner Cyberpunk for example.

When I saw the count I said it's the Great Unclean One (from Chaos Nurgle of Warhammer). All the apostles indeed seem to be driven from Warhammer except the Grunbeld monster which doesn't resemble a spawn from organic matter but an elemental Dragon driven from dungeons&dragons. I don't want to argue this as I see no sense in it.
Berserk is defined Dark Fantasy because Warhammer got that definition and Berserk resembles from there. Medieval type Europe with lotsa wars and the threat of corrupted (that can be found in the higher ranks as well). In Warhammer Chaos wants to take over humanity just as Griffith wants. It's the same thing.
About vampires and werewolves and spectres well they make their add through the protagonists. Gats' beast, Zodd the nosferatu or immortal with the wings of a giant bat and the Skeleton Knight. True they are not exact replicas of their influences but they retain all the elements to deeply touch all the fans of those influences.

Every drama takes from somewhere, from some other source. The initial basis is the social life. When the drama is not contemporary it is based on some other work of the past. Berserk, over its most, cannot be defined as contemporary. Miura is based as such to other things, and this is not to quote.
However this is not (and cannot be) something negative at all(as per se) as you seem to want to counter-defend.

You state, but you don't give examples, you assume but there's no basis. Where is your assumtion with some points to back them up?

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Tell me which frase you could possibly doupt?

I would add more, but I think my current points are sufficient.

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Sufficient for what?

Listen Hi-There pal, you want to misunderstand all the time because you just want to say that Miura didn't get influenced from WoD or Warhammer. This could be another thread of your invention and initiation if you like. I started this thread just to ask if you find good points or bad about his art or his work of art(which means his manga). Cinema is art so I guess manga could be considered as art too.

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Yes I see that now Xechnao buddy, but you addressed his influences aswell, so I'm addressing both of your points(about the nature of his influences and what my take on his work is)

Berserk is defined Dark Fantasy just as El_Cid is Historicall, Lord of the Rings Fantasy and Blade-Runner Cyberpunk for example.

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You know, you don't have to derive from other dark fantasies to create a dark fantasy. present life, future assumptions, human nature and human history is sufficient enough to create a story that may very well be categorized as a 'dark fantasy.'

The point I'm trying to make, is that yes, he could have had influences from those(there could be more solid indication in future volumes), but from what I've observed so far he could very well have taken DIFFERENT approaches. I also pointed out what I think would have been the most primary and logical pursuit-which to me is Human psychology.

True they are not exact replicas of their influences but they retain all the elements to deeply touch all the fans of those influences.

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But its as if your saying that there is no other way he could've came up with what he did, unless his influences came from Warhammer. Seriously, there are many other myths to derive from and numerous other ways he could have come up with his material. Similarities... could just mean similarities.

Tell me which frase you could possibly doupt?

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"When the drama is not contemporary it is based on some other work of the past."

ANY DRAMA, be it contemporary or not, could be derived from any source as I've mentioned before. It doesn't have to neccessarily be from other past works.
It could be from history, science, future assumptions, psychological studies, personal observations of current society etc etc.

Sufficient for what?

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Sufficient to my reasons of the 'good points' in his manga.

As to the bad points... I guess I would like his work to be more frequent, but it's nothing really, just the itch to read more Berserk.

You know, you don't have to derive from other dark fantasies to create a dark fantasy. present life, future assumptions, human nature and human history is sufficient enough to create a story that may very well be categorized as a 'dark fantasy.'

The point I'm trying to make, is that yes, he could have had influences from those(there could be more solid indication in future volumes), but from what I've observed so far he could very well have taken DIFFERENT approaches. I also pointed out what I think would have been the most primary and logical pursuit-which to me is Human psychology.

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BERSERK as a manga is defined as Psychological or Dark Fantasy? If it is Dark Fantasy then it's a influence from a Dark Fantasy pre-existing work or at least some Fantasy work.
Dark Fantasy is more complicated to originate byitself: it has a two word definition which is because it's a twist or a modification of another preestablished work.The noun is Fantasy and this is its origin. The adjective is Dark and this is the modification or twist.
Dark Fantasy(horror twist of Fantasy) exists already through various works. Most known of them are: Elric, Warhammer and Earthdawn. BERSERK looks a lot with Warhammer. Too similar in too many points of the Warhammer work. So I can't but assume that BERSERK has its influences directly from there other than Tolkien(who is the father of Fantasy).

But its as if your saying that there is no other way he could've came up with what he did, unless his influences came from Warhammer. Seriously, there are many other myths to derive from and numerous other ways he could have come up with his material. Similarities... could just mean similarities.

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Similarities could just mean similarities but not for this case for the reasons described above.

"When the drama is not contemporary it is based on some other work of the past."


ANY DRAMA, be it contemporary or not, could be derived from any source as I've mentioned before. It doesn't have to neccessarily be from other past works.
It could be from history, science, future assumptions, psychological studies, personal observations of current society etc etc.

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Sources from the past=works(the documentation is a work of somebody).
History, future assumptions, psychological studies, personal observations of current society=work.
So as I said before there is not the big-deal here you are making. It is either the same thing either something inevitable and obviously this values for everybody. And to repeat it here: "this is not (and cannot be) something negative at all(as per se) as you seem to want to counter-defend".

Berserk is an original story. The fact that you are claiming that Muira drew his works from previous works/assumptions is pissing everyone off. Although his works may have some elements from other works, this does NOT mean he actually pulled those elements from other works. As some say, originality is lost, as everything has already been done. I seriously a manga like this would have very many (if any) influences.

So as I said before there is not the big-deal here you are making. It is either the same thing either something inevitable and obviously this values for everybody. And to repeat it here: "this is not (and cannot be) something negative at all(as per se) as you seem to want to counter-defend".

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We are big fans of berserk. To say that Berserk is NOT original, will piss its fans off, and thus we will counter defend your argument.

Nevertheless, you are wrong to put it on top of others: have you seen or read "Blade Runner","My Enemy","Dr.Jekyl and Mr.Hide","Frankestein","Dracula","Wolf", just to name a few?

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I've read Dr Jekyl, I have seen blade runner, and i (tried to) read Frankenstein (i thought it was boring after the 1st chaper... ::))
Have you read them? What makes them so much better or original from berserk?


The only reason why we are arguing about this is because it just so happens that Berserk is more modern than many of the examples that you are pulling. Had Berserk been created before other myths, we would be claiming that the werewolf myth came from Berserk. So do us all a favor and shove a damned cork in it.

Berserk is an original story.

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There is no 100% original story as every story originates from something(story originates from communication and it is established between more people). Maybe you would like to claim that BERSERK for example is not only 30% original but 50% original but here I cant help you as I don't know how to play this game and actually I don't care.

The fact that you are claiming that Muira drew his works from previous works/assumptions is pissing everyone off.

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You seem like a baby. And you lower the level also of this thread approaching it like this.

Although his works may have some elements from other works, this does NOT mean he actually pulled those elements from other works.

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See previous post(that replying to Hi-There).

I seriously a manga like this would have very many (if any) influences.

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?Huh?

We are big fans of berserk.

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This is one thing. Answering a question is another.

To say that Berserk is NOT original, will piss its fans off, and thus we will counter defend your argument.

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This would be so immature.

I've read Dr Jekyl, I have seen blade runner, and i (tried to) read Frankenstein (i thought it was boring after the 1st chaper... ::))
Have you read them? What makes them so much better or original from berserk?

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I personally don't confront them to BERSERK. I spoke about them as examples of works that deal with the human condition through a specific non mundane setting just to show that BERSERK can't have a original quality over here.

The only reason why we are arguing about this is because it just so happens that Berserk is more modern than many of the examples that you are pulling. Had Berserk been created before other myths, we would be claiming that the werewolf myth came from Berserk. So do us all a favor and shove a damned cork in it.

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But BERSERK isn't created before. This is the reality we are speaking about but you, as a fan prefer to go off reality just to defend as a baby defends its toys. Isn't that immature?
You see being like the way you are just hinders you to judge and make critic on BERSERK obgectivally, as a work in the real word.
If you have some points and remarks over BERSERK with explanation please offer them.
I opened this thread just for this and then discuss over these opinions. Please help it other than whinning over "your BERSERK which is the best and beats all the rest".

xechnao I understand were you're comming from, and I don't determine whether Berserk as an original piece of work or a story full of copies is negative... I enjoy reading it nevertheless, so its positive.

However I do disagree with some of your explanations. The term dark fantasy doesn't only entail to trade mark fantasy work with horror elements. Fantasy stories have certain aspects which is derived from 'imagination'-something a mind can make up, which Berserk clearly has. It's 'dark' because of the harsh content. It doesn't neccessarily mean it has to derive directly from the genre of Dark fantasy. It was put into that category because of the content of the story.

Not that I'm denying the possibility that he could have used other works as reference, but I'm pointing out the other possibilities and the great probability that Miura had come up with the material on his own(which I have no reason to doubt).

Sources from the past=works(the documentation is a work of somebody).
History, future assumptions, psychological studies, personal observations of current society=work.

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Well now, there's a missunderstanding. I assumed you meant 'other works' as in the works of fictional literature. However there is one point in there that doesn't fit that I'll clear up. I Refer to Personal Observation as his personal life, from meeting people, to watching the news, for him to draw upon his own personal conclusions to the themes in his manga.

Listen, I'm indifferent to the debate, heated or not. I only got upset when you said 'You're wrong' concerning my preference of the works I may enjoy more, which concerned personal oppinion.

Anyways, I thought the the thread was diverted back to the views of the possitive and negative traits of the manga...

You seem like a baby. And you lower the level also of this thread approaching it like this.

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I didnt realize that i was immature and name calling ::)

There is no 100% original story as every story originates from something(story originates from communication and it is established between more people). Maybe you would like to claim that BERSERK for example is not only 30% original but 50% original but here I cant help you as I don't know how to play this game and actually I don't care.

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There are many different definitions of Original

o·rig·i·nal ( P ) Pronunciation Key (-rj-nl)
adj.
Preceding all others in time; first

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n.
A first form from which other forms are made or developed: Later models of the car retained many features of the original.

An authentic work of art: bought an original, not a print.
Work that has been composed firsthand: kept the original but sent a photocopy to his publisher.

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Note that the first definition is an adjective, meaning that its describing something. The second definition is a noun. I take my definition as the second, claiming that Miura's work is original. Thus, Muira does have "An authentic work of art" and "Work that has been composed firsthand". Thus, Muira's work is original

This would be so immature.

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How mature of you ::)

personally don't confront them to BERSERK. I spoke about them as examples of works that deal with the human condition through a specific non mundane setting just to show that BERSERK can't have a original quality over here.

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Im sorry, you didnt answer my question. HAVE YOU READ ANY OF THE EXAMPLES YOU HAVE SHOWN BEFORE? If you havent, dont use them as examples. And yes, YOU DID confront them to berserk, in an earlier post.

But BERSERK isn't created before. This is the reality we are speaking about but you, as a fan prefer to go off reality just to defend as a baby defends its toys. Isn't that immature?
You see being like the way you are just hinders you to judge and make critic on BERSERK obgectivally, as a work in the real word.
If you have some points and remarks over BERSERK with explanation please offer them.
I opened this thread just for this and then discuss over these opinions. Please help it other than whinning over "your BERSERK which is the best and beats all the rest".

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This is the third time you have called me immature. In my debating experiences, when someone is upset, or gives up, they resort to name calling. Are you upset or have you given up?


Ah, yes, and give us something to go by, not just what you percieve is truth. Because hey, Im just telling you what I percieve as truth. I believe you started this thread in the basis that you believed that Berserk had influences from mythology? Again, my main complaint is that you claim that Muira bases his work off mythology, whereas interviews with him show otherwise (i remember reading one or two of his translated interviews).


One more thing. Just because Muira is creating a story that can be categorized into a type of story (i.e fantasy, fiction, sci fi, etc) does not mean that his story is unoriginal. This would mean that star wars is unoriginal because Star trek came before it (then again, if you use the first definition, that would be true... ::))

Shove a cork in it. Please. If you dont, then give some hard evidence, not your perceptions.

I am going to post what I think about the work of art of Miura, BERSERK.

-Technically seems flawless. Designs always respect correct depiction of the objects as Miura wants to place them. For instance if a person has something on its right hand and this person gets depicted on various positions and stances every depiction will be precise to this matter. So mistakes of this genre in BERSERK don't exist. Similarly the design of distances always is correct to the minimum detail. So BERSERK technically doesn't fail.

-Miura's design choices achieve the image of strength. It seems that this is what Miura wants to depict more in his Manga. The most shocking images, the images of gore get delivered through the depiction of strength and not fragilty. Never a gore scene begins with the depiction of the pure state of calmness and then proceed to its gore alienation. On the contrary Miura always begins with the depiction of strength and afterwards depicts the gore, as a result of this strength. This means that Miura delivers more the principle of strength than the principle of fear. Indeed the method depicting gore through the principle of fragilty achieves to be a lot more scary to the emotions of a reader than Miura's method.

-Due to this focus on strength BERSERK tends to praise more the action of strength than the action of the human condition. Indeed all the human destruction in BERSERK never minds as long as Gatsu is strong. Or it's good that there is destruction so we can see how strong Gatsu is. The same values about Gatsu: we don't want him to be in peace only to deliver the maximum of strength and train about this. I believe this is because the environment of BERSERK is a violent one, an environment of the strength of violence. So Miura achieves to give a setting of brutal action. In the end the feellings and sentiments that BERSERK delivers are not those of Dark Fantasy but something more like those that a Karate film wants to deliver.

-Miura is using concepts in BERSERK to help him balance it in the other way if he ever thinks he needs to. One for example is the concept of Caska as she stands for her own in the BERSERK universe(another one was Gatsu's father Gambino but it got it exhausted in the very start of the manga). Those could depict the human condition but till now Miura hasn't used them to do so enough. On the contrary he insists to over-balance towards the principle of strength. So now to counter-balance more towards the human condition seems to be very difficult where BERSERK has taken the odds. So BERSERK seems to end to be SUPER-GUTS as the banner of this forum implies.

These were my points.

And here is an image of BERSERK's protagonist.
Gatsu doesn't seem a human being. He is strong. He has no pain. He is super. The frenzy should make him feel pain and suffer when it gave him the extra power but insted he makes him feel good. There are not negative consequences of his super effort, just positive ones for him. At least not when he fights. So fighting of strength is good. Fighting of strength delivers.
He lost an arm. Now he is stronger with the cannon. (Gambino was another story).
If you fight like Gatsu you will exhaust and collapse at the end (as Caska did). But Gatsu is another story. Gatsu insted gets stronger. He is Super-Guts.

Well, correct me if im wrong, but i believe your points were

1. Guts is a werewolf
2. Zodd is a vampire
3. Skullknight is a spectre/mage

Then you claimed Muira was strongly influenced by European mythology. I disagree.

http://www.skullknight.net/yabbse/index.php?board=3;action=display;threadid=1490

An interview with Miura, it shows some of his influences. He doesnt even imply that he was influenced by European mythology.

pheonixfenix said:

Well, correct me if im wrong, but i believe your points were

1. Guts is a werewolf
2. Zodd is a vampire
3. Skullknight is a spectre/mage

Then you claimed Muira was strongly influenced by European mythology. I disagree.

http://www.skullknight.net/yabbse/index.php?board=3;action=display;threadid=1490

An interview with Miura, it shows some of his influences. He doesnt even imply that he was influenced by European mythology.

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Miura says in this review he's got his influences from medieval europe and its fantasy. This is European mythology. Werewolves is a legend of medieval france and vampires of medieval Rumenia (transylvania). Spectres is a legend of Ireland or England but I am not sure exactly. European mythology stands by these things.

And here is an image of BERSERK's protagonist.
Gatsu doesn't seem a human being. He is strong. He has no pain. He is super. The frenzy should make him feel pain and suffer when it gave him the extra power but insted he makes him feel good. There are not negative consequences of his super effort, just positive ones for him. At least not when he fights. So fighting of strength is good. Fighting of strength delivers.
He lost an arm. Now he is stronger with the cannon. (Gambino was another story).
If you fight like Gatsu you will exhaust and collapse at the end (as Caska did). But Gatsu is another story. Gatsu insted gets stronger. He is Super-Guts.

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I look at it that Gutts represented both for a part of the human condition and the fantasy aspects of the world of Berserk. Guts was a human in all respects when he was with Gambino-he was not even strong enough to push off Donavan.
The rage, the violence, and the anger channeled through Gutts' sometimes, inhuman actions are a representation of a human trait-rage in the rawest form Hence the name 'Berserk'. Since Miura has the aspects of fantasy in his story, it's only fitting for Gutts to embody both traits of human rage coupled with human imagination.

In symbolic terms for his character, he even has a 'brand' that keeps him at the gates of corporeal and hell.

Hi_There said:

I look at it that Gutts represented both for a part of the human condition and the fantasy aspects of the world of Berserk. Guts was a human in all respects when he was with Gambino-he was not even strong enough to push off Donavan.
The rage, the violence, and the anger channeled through Gutts' sometimes, inhuman actions are a representation of a human trait-rage in the rawest form Hence the name 'Berserk'. Since Miura has the aspects of fantasy in his story, it's only fitting for Gutts to embody both traits of human rage coupled with human imagination.

In symbolic terms for his character, he even has a 'brand' that keeps him at the gates of corporeal and hell.

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What is this balance for? This balance fails to... balance. You use fantasy to show emotions of human condition that a given mundane environmental condition won't justify or vice-versa. But Miura uses fantasy in both of them. So it ends up over-balanced getting to deliver only the physical part of his design which is strength.

Indeed at the begining BERSERK was more balanced, let's say untill the assasination of King's Brother, including this one. After this BERSERK becomes (over-balanced) Super-Guts.
However when I mentioned Gambino before it was about the loss of his leg and the normal consequences in confrontation of the unhuman or superhuman approach of Gutt's losing arm.