Author Topic: Episode 232  (Read 65778 times)

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Offline kimchan

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Re:Episode 232
« Reply #325 on: January 01, 2004, 04:34:27 PM »
First of all, Lady Paradise_Lost, PLEASE learn to quote instead of posting six or seven messages in a row.  

I've looked through the translations *I* have from volume 23 on.  I only found about 3 or 4 references to the church at all.  It was referred to as "the Vatican" only once.  Every other time, it was the High Church, Supreme Council, or just "order."  

BUT, as Olivier and others have pointed out many times already, this doesn't prove anything, just as YOUR translations prove nothing because they're both only translations.  They aren't set in stone or dead accurate, ever.  They're just secondhand sources giving us the idea of what's being said and going on.  Each individual translator uses their own discretion making these texts, so things often slip in that actually just don't work.  Olivier, on the other hand, isn't reading from someone's translation of these volumes, he's reading the manga itself as he knows Japanese.  Until you can read Japanese well enough to actually be able to read and translate the manga, I suggest you stop rambling on about "feelings" and listen to what he says, because he knows what he's talking about.

Going along with that, it's pretty obvious that Berserk is not based in actual history for the most part and is not set in the actual Europe that existed in Medieval times.  So it's safe to say that it makes little sense to have the Church's headquarters called "the Vatican."  

Be careful not to make assumptions.  There are a lot of things in Berserk that have been repeated over and over to the point that they seem like fact, when actually we just don't know.  
« Last Edit: January 01, 2004, 04:37:20 PM by kimchan »
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Offline Kart

Re:Episode 232
« Reply #326 on: January 01, 2004, 07:46:10 PM »
ok, i've read alot and might have alot to say, whether you take into considrathion some of my points is up to you, first i will post plato lines reguarding this arguement.

Quote

Lines from Socrates pheado

Yes, I said, but Heracles himself is said not to be a match for two.

Summon me then, he said, and I will be your Iolaus until the sun goes down.

I summon you rather, I rejoined, not as Heracles summoning Iolaus, but as Iolaus might summon Heracles.

That will do as well, he said. But first let us take care that we avoid a danger.

Of what nature? I said.

Lest we become misologists, he replied, no worse thing can happen to a man than this. For as there are misanthropists or haters of men, there are also misologists or haters of ideas, and both spring from the same cause, which is ignorance of the world. Misanthropy arises out of the too great confidence of inexperience;--you trust a man and think him altogether true and sound and faithful, and then in a little while he turns out to be false and knavish; and then another and another, and when this has happened several times to a man, especially when it happens among those whom he deems to be his own most trusted and familiar friends, and he has often quarreled with them, he at last hates all men, and believes that no one has any good in him at all. You must have observed this trait of character?

I have.

And is not the feeling discreditable? Is it not obvious that such an one having to deal with other men, was clearly without any experience of human nature; for experience would have taught him the true state of the case, that few are the good and few the evil, and that the great majority are in the interval between them.

What do you mean? I said.

I mean, he replied, as you might say of the very large and very small, that nothing is more uncommon than a very large or very small man; and this applies generally to all extremes, whether of great and small, or swift and slow, or fair and foul, or black and white: and whether the instances you select be men or dogs or anything else, few are the extremes, but many are in the mean between them. Did you never observe this?

Yes, I said, I have.

And do you not imagine, he said, that if there were a competition in evil, the worst would be found to be very few?

Yes, that is very likely, I said.

Yes, that is very likely, he replied; although in this respect arguments are unlike men--there I was led on by you to say more than I had intended; but the point of comparison was, that when a simple man who has no skill in dialectics believes an argument to be true which he afterwards imagines to be false, whether really false or not, and then another and another, he has no longer any faith left, and great disputers, as you know, come to think at last that they have grown to be the wisest of mankind; for they alone perceive the utter unsoundness and instability of all arguments, or indeed, of all things, which, like the currents in the Euripus, are going up and down in never-ceasing ebb and flow.

That is quite true, I said.

Yes, Phaedo, he replied, and how melancholy, if there be such a thing as truth or certainty or possibility of knowledge--that a man should have lighted upon some argument or other which at first seemed true and then turned out to be false, and instead of blaming himself and his own want of wit, because he is annoyed, should at last be too glad to transfer the blame from himself to arguments in general: and for ever afterwards should hate and revile them, and lose truth and the knowledge of realities.

Yes, indeed, I said; that is very melancholy.

Let us then, in the first place, he said, be careful of allowing or of admitting into our souls the notion that there is no health or soundness in any arguments at all. Rather say that we have not yet attained to soundness in ourselves, and that we must struggle manfully and do our best to gain health of mind--you and all other men having regard to the whole of your future life, and I myself in the prospect of death. For at this moment I am sensible that I have not the temper of a philosopher; like the vulgar, I am only a partisan. Now the partisan, when he is engaged in a dispute, cares nothing about the rights of the question, but is anxious only to convince his hearers of his own assertions. And the difference between him and me at the present moment is merely this--that whereas he seeks to convince his hearers that what he says is true, I am rather seeking to convince myself; to convince my hearers is a secondary matter with me. And do but see how much I gain by the argument. For if what I say is true, then I do well to be persuaded of the truth, but if there be nothing after death, still, during the short time that remains, I shall not distress my friends with lamentations, and my ignorance will not last, but will die with me, and therefore no harm will be done. This is the state of mind, Simmias and Cebes, in which I approach the argument. And I would ask you to be thinking of the truth and not of Socrates: agree with me, if I seem to you to be speaking the truth; or if not, withstand me might and main, that I may not deceive you as well as myself in my enthusiasm, and like the bee, leave my sting in you before I die.

And now let us proceed, he said. And first of all let me be sure that I have in my mind what you were saying. Simmias, if I remember rightly, has fears and misgivings whether the soul, although a fairer and diviner thing than the body, being as she is in the form of harmony, may not perish first. On the other hand, Cebes appeared to grant that the soul was more lasting than the body, but he said that no one could know whether the soul, after having worn out many bodies, might not perish herself and leave her last body behind her; and that this is death, which is the destruction not of the body but of the soul, for in the body the work of destruction is ever going on. Are not these, Simmias and Cebes, the points which we have to consider?

I apologize that it takes up so much room.

I beleive this is the just of it, read it if you choose, it's not the bigger part of my post just something i sugguest.


I have a question to begin with, does the word that represents vetican have any other meanings? if not the vatican i looked up in dictionary.com simply was the holy city of the pope or the government of the papal, and as for saying "There is no pope in berserk"

The male head of some non-Christian religions: the Taoist pope. there you go, it's perfect reasonable use of words on miuras part.


And don't ever deny a theory just because you disagree with it.


With judos/charllotes story on the four angels decending on geasric, and sense it could also mean "kings" think of it when you said four kings of the world, it's quite possible the wiseman is NOT void, and lady in implied that geasric was infact void while the wiseman is skullknight, which could also explain some of the relationship between him and flora both being users of the elements of magic.

let's next take into account olivers great point that the occults only take place every 200 and some odd years, which makes it impossible for void and slann to have become godhands in the same instince, therefore if he speaks to (i think your implying that void is an old friend with slann) slann like an old friend it is possible that she was the SECOND god hand, and remember griffith was given a choice of how he looked so void could have simply choosen to be like that.

And here is where the problem in my theory begins, If Zodd were to be Geasrics Casca and the Wiseman his Guts, Then when he sacrificed his kingdom some force would have had to save them both, (because i don't think the kingdom is the wisemans to sacrifice).


although zodd may be younger by far then skullknight so meh.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2004, 07:49:16 PM by Kart »

Offline erutan

Re:Episode 232
« Reply #327 on: January 01, 2004, 09:00:56 PM »
I think it would help resolve things if Hague expanded on his arguments more instead of posting one liners to various sentences...

Case in point, Avignon would make more sense than Jerusalem because the church in Berserk is based/heavily influenced by the old catholic church.  Rome would be a possibility (the earlier period at least) but it would lead to one to associate with the current catholic church which isn't as relevant (ie Berserk church is more concerned with burning heretics than condemning armed conflict, birth control, and sexual practices). It may "LOL" not be the one you were thinking of, but it would probably fit better.

As for the sillyness and cultural egoism of using Vatican for every holy city and Pentagon for every dept of defense building, I agree.  It is like saying "well they say capitol (capital would be even worse) city so we'll translate it as Washington DC."  It harms the integrity of the created world.  If Miura would have specifically said Vatican in katakana for some reason, then Vatican it would be, but without that I don't see it being justified.  The church in Berserk is NOT the Catholic church.  There is no Christ in Berserk. They don't have crosses, they have freaky little bird and snake symbols.  To the best of my knowledge these don't show up in most churchs.

Olivier's translations are very simple: Seito = Holy City.  Meca, Avignon, Jerusalem, Rome, etc are all holy cities, and you could say "well Seito refers to a city like the Vatican" and that would be correct in a broad sense, but to take the step to name something the Vatican??  Their simplicity makes them more reliable in my opinion than someone using a similar, more common wording that has a loaded definition.

On to The Holy See ("Hch").  In addition to Olivier's dictoinary.com link, here is one on "see" scroll down a bit for the relevant def I pulled out.
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=See
The official seat, center of authority, jurisdiction, or office of a bishop. This in Catholicism is the Vatican, not the Pope himself hence this website "Vatican: the Holy See" http://www.vatican.va/  Going back to the earlier reference as the head of diocese http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=diocese we can see it works as well.  Plus "Cho" kanji means place.  

Semantically one could perhaps argue that due to the god given role of the pope as resting on the firm rock of peter and his ultimate authority in all matters that he is the center of authority, but the term is not meant be used in this way.  Likewise one could go even further and say that the Bible represents the basis for the Pope, and that it is the center of authority.  What is more likely is that even if "written in the Holy See" is correct it refers to some holy writings contained in the holy city.
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Offline IgnusDei

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Re:Episode 232
« Reply #328 on: January 01, 2004, 09:21:24 PM »
i never thaught lady griffith was the type to troll. Jesus Christ was i wrong.

Still, Olivier, You've proved your points many times over already. It's time for a rule of three: if you have to repeat the same goddamn argument three times and the opposition still doesn't "get it", he/she is being a troll and it's only a matter of time before the discussopm degenerates into insulting genitalia and making allusions to sexual preferences.

Getting the last word in an argument just isn't worth it.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2004, 09:21:55 PM by IgnusDei »

Offline Graywords

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Re:Episode 232
« Reply #329 on: January 01, 2004, 10:39:29 PM »
Okay, this is sorta out of left field, but consider this:  it was the "rebirth ceremony", was it not, that takes place once every thousand years, approximately?  That seems a bit telling to me... *every* thousand years... meaning it's probably happened more than once or twice, right?  There was very likely a rebirth ceremony taking place during Gaiseric's reign or near to it... meaning God Hand.

Another telling aspect is the fact that Judo and (Casca was it?) couldn't remember whether it was 4 or 5 angels.  During a Rebirth ceremony, one of the God Hand reverts to a (seemingly) mortal form.  So at first there could've been all five, then one is reborn, leaving four... just as Femto was reborn into Griffith again, leaving the other four members behind.

I'm really leery about the Elemental Kings thing.  There were definitely only four of them, and no reason for anybody to *think* there were five.  I mean, there's a remote possibility that it's them, but with all the evidence pointing elsewhere, why make such a random assumption? :)
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Offline Kart

Re:Episode 232
« Reply #330 on: January 02, 2004, 01:08:02 AM »
it's not random, Flora clearly speaks to Shriek saying "the shadow is the most unstable element" in 26..

Offline Mizar

Re:Episode 232
« Reply #331 on: January 02, 2004, 01:35:06 AM »
it's not random, Flora clearly speaks to Shriek saying "the shadow is the most unstable element" in 26..

No, she didn't say that. Another nice example of an inaccurate translation. ::)

Offline Kart

Re:Episode 232
« Reply #332 on: January 02, 2004, 01:38:37 AM »
I apologize for my ignorance then, please do correct me.

Offline SexyCharlotte

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Re:Episode 232
« Reply #333 on: January 02, 2004, 03:37:47 AM »
No, she didn't say that. Another nice example of an inaccurate translation. ::)

An inaccurate translation? Didn't Olivier say in a previous post that translations are OFTEN inaccurate? Who's the say what the 'right' translation is if it's open to interpretation? Yes, Schierke did say that the shadow element was either dangerous, hard to control, or unstable according to the translations I have. If you want to start iabout it too Mizar, we can do that. You're another one who 'always has to be right'. There was a time here when you and Puella went back and forth over one stupid word that you couldn't agree on a translation. Can't you just understand that there is no 'one unified' translation that is totally correct?

LPL
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Offline SexyCharlotte

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Re:Episode 232
« Reply #334 on: January 02, 2004, 03:42:01 AM »
i never thaught lady griffith was the type to troll. Jesus Christ was i wrong.

Still, Olivier, You've proved your points many times over already. It's time for a rule of three: if you have to repeat the same goddamn argument three times and the opposition still doesn't "get it", he/she is being a troll and it's only a matter of time before the discussopm degenerates into insulting genitalia and making allusions to sexual preferences.

Getting the last word in an argument just isn't worth it.

First of all, it's not a matter of getting the last word in, if that's your impression. I care about proving my point that the translation I have says VATICAN and that it was clearly mentioned. Olivier and I seem to be looking at the definition in two different ways: there are different definitions that could cause the translations to differ themselves...he even admitted that translations aren't always accurate. So what makes his the 'right one' and my translation the 'wrong one?'  In a dictionary, there is never just one definition anyways.

Use YOUR sense and try to see it from MY perspective that while he's right a lot of times, there's always room for other people to be right as well.

And I don't care if you think trying to prove or insisting that I'm right makes me a troll. I stated very clearly where things were said and that I felt my speculations were on the mark.

LPL
"The heart has its reasons whereof reason knows nothing...." Pascale

Offline SexyCharlotte

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Kimchan
« Reply #335 on: January 02, 2004, 03:45:41 AM »
First of all, Lady Paradise_Lost, PLEASE learn to quote instead of posting six or seven messages in a row.  

I've looked through the translations *I* have from volume 23 on.  I only found about 3 or 4 references to the church at all.  It was referred to as "the Vatican" only once.  Every other time, it was the High Church, Supreme Council, or just "order."  

BUT, as Olivier and others have pointed out many times already, this doesn't prove anything, just as YOUR translations prove nothing because they're both only translations.  They aren't set in stone or dead accurate, ever.  They're just secondhand sources giving us the idea of what's being said and going on.  Each individual translator uses their own discretion making these texts, so things often slip in that actually just don't work.  Olivier, on the other hand, isn't reading from someone's translation of these volumes, he's reading the manga itself as he knows Japanese.  Until you can read Japanese well enough to actually be able to read and translate the manga, I suggest you stop rambling on about "feelings" and listen to what he says, because he knows what he's talking about.

Going along with that, it's pretty obvious that Berserk is not based in actual history for the most part and is not set in the actual Europe that existed in Medieval times.  So it's safe to say that it makes little sense to have the Church's headquarters called "the Vatican."  

Be careful not to make assumptions.  There are a lot of things in Berserk that have been repeated over and over to the point that they seem like fact, when actually we just don't know.  

LOL baby, listen,I was a history major... BUT I NEVER said Berserk was set in actual Europe and I never said it was 'based on actual history...' reread what I said and you will find that I stated clearly that Miura BORROWED and was INSPIRED by historical facts that indeed did happen in this world. What's wrong with that? Most people can agree that he's been inspired by a lot of cultural and historical phemonena that exists in the 'real world.' Borrowing and inspiring a story is not the same thing as 'BASING" a story on fact. Everyone here with half a brain can see that Miura's story has borrowed elements...I believe it was mentioned a long time ago on this board about the strong connection in character development between the Godhand members and Hellraiser's cenobites. AS WELL AS HP LOVERCRAFTIAN elements in the 'other dimensions world' that the Beherits opened. If you can't see the inspiration Miura borrowed there, I don't know what to tell you.

Olivier clearly stated that the word VATICAN itself was NEVER USED in the translation. Even right there, you said yourself, in your translation, the word was used. That was my whole fucking point. He kept saying that it was never used or MENTIONED and there you have it, it was.

I don't make assumptions, I make speculations and conclusions based on what my translatons say.

Sorry to disappoint you, my Queen.

LOL
« Last Edit: January 02, 2004, 04:16:36 AM by Lady Paradise_Lost »
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Offline SexyCharlotte

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Re:Episode 232
« Reply #336 on: January 02, 2004, 03:47:50 AM »
_Again_, I don't care about your translation.You're hopeless.I don't care. But if you do, go ahead.Yes.*sigh*Don't.Rubbish because it's not logical.

It's rubbish to YOU because you feel you have to be right. It takes two people to argue, Olivier. Need I say more?  The Holy See and the Vatican were mentioned in Berserk, end of statement, end of my argument. Even KimChan states that her translation mentions the word. So I feel like the blind leading the blind here.

LPL
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Offline Trashcan

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Re:Episode 232
« Reply #337 on: January 02, 2004, 03:49:05 AM »
The argument has gone on long enough for me to forget what this thread was about. :(
Now, I've gotta go back to the beginning and read it again! >:( Thanks alot!
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Offline SexyCharlotte

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Re:Olivier/ Hagued, who gives a shit?
« Reply #338 on: January 02, 2004, 03:50:25 AM »
As a matter of fact, it was Judo.And Mozgus didn't specify the number of angels. That was my point.And you don't see what I'm getting at?I said that the Vatican was named after the Vatican Hill. Not that the Vatican (as in "the Holy See") was ever known as "the Vatican Hill".Of course, since the Vatican Hill is just a hill...Schierke didn't refer to the city.There's no "Vatican Hill" in the world of "Berserk". Therefore, there's no reason for the Holy See to be called "the Vatican".
How hard is that to understand?Why would a wizard be a fellow or a martyr, as far as Mozgus is concerned?Not necessarily.We know that the Skull Knight and the _God Hands_ have a grudge. But Void specifically? No, we don't know that.According to your theory, the "angels" were actually the Four Kings of the World. What's the connection between the Crimson Beherit and the Four Kings of the World, again?You do realize that Occultations occur every 216 years?You never know.... I... I have no words.

Why would a wise man be a martyr for Mosguz? Quite simply because he was just that...a wise man, a man of religion or knowledge of power.How do you explain then how SK knew Slann if there's no 'connection' between Gaiseric, Slann, and Void?

LPL
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Offline SexyCharlotte

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Re:Olivier/ Hagued, who gives a shit?
« Reply #339 on: January 02, 2004, 03:53:14 AM »
As a matter of fact, it was Judo.And Mozgus didn't specify the number of angels. That was my point.And you don't see what I'm getting at?I said that the Vatican was named after the Vatican Hill. Not that the Vatican (as in "the Holy See") was ever known as "the Vatican Hill".Of course, since the Vatican Hill is just a hill...Schierke didn't refer to the city.There's no "Vatican Hill" in the world of "Berserk". Therefore, there's no reason for the Holy See to be called "the Vatican".
How hard is that to understand?Why would a wizard be a fellow or a martyr, as far as Mozgus is concerned?Not necessarily.We know that the Skull Knight and the _God Hands_ have a grudge. But Void specifically? No, we don't know that.According to your theory, the "angels" were actually the Four Kings of the World. What's the connection between the Crimson Beherit and the Four Kings of the World, again?You do realize that Occultations occur every 216 years?You never know.... I... I have no words.


No, it was Charlotte who mentioned the angels. I can send you that scanlation as well. And I can send you the one where Mosguz talks to Farnese and Serpico about the wise man who was being tortured who called down the destruction of the empire as well. Now Olivier, either I've got a completely different set of translation DVDs than you, my mother's kanji and Japanese is really bad even though that's her first language and highly unlikely it's bad, LOL, or we're just on two different pages of the same book.

LPL
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Offline SexyCharlotte

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Re:Episode 232
« Reply #340 on: January 02, 2004, 03:55:24 AM »
First of all, Lady Paradise_Lost, PLEASE learn to quote instead of posting six or seven messages in a row.  

I've looked through the translations *I* have from volume 23 on.  I only found about 3 or 4 references to the church at all.  It was referred to as "the Vatican" only once.  Every other time, it was the High Church, Supreme Council, or just "order."  

BUT, as Olivier and others have pointed out many times already, this doesn't prove anything, just as YOUR translations prove nothing because they're both only translations.  They aren't set in stone or dead accurate, ever.  They're just secondhand sources giving us the idea of what's being said and going on.  Each individual translator uses their own discretion making these texts, so things often slip in that actually just don't work.  Olivier, on the other hand, isn't reading from someone's translation of these volumes, he's reading the manga itself as he knows Japanese.  Until you can read Japanese well enough to actually be able to read and translate the manga, I suggest you stop rambling on about "feelings" and listen to what he says, because he knows what he's talking about.

Going along with that, it's pretty obvious that Berserk is not based in actual history for the most part and is not set in the actual Europe that existed in Medieval times.  So it's safe to say that it makes little sense to have the Church's headquarters called "the Vatican."  

Be careful not to make assumptions.  There are a lot of things in Berserk that have been repeated over and over to the point that they seem like fact, when actually we just don't know.  

He's the one who thinks his translations are set in stone. They're not. No translation is. That was my whole point. And don't you get uppity with me and suggest that I listen to him when I have someone in my own family whose first language is Japanese and who can read and write kanji more fluently than anyone here on this board, including him. If there's someone here from Japan to whom Japanese is a first language, then I'll listen.

LPL
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Offline SexyCharlotte

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Re:Episode 232
« Reply #341 on: January 02, 2004, 04:04:38 AM »
I think it would help resolve things if Hague expanded on his arguments more instead of posting one liners to various sentences...

Case in point, Avignon would make more sense than Jerusalem because the church in Berserk is based/heavily influenced by the old catholic church.  Rome would be a possibility (the earlier period at least) but it would lead to one to associate with the current catholic church which isn't as relevant (ie Berserk church is more concerned with burning heretics than condemning armed conflict, birth control, and sexual practices). It may "LOL" not be the one you were thinking of, but it would probably fit better.

As for the sillyness and cultural egoism of using Vatican for every holy city and Pentagon for every dept of defense building, I agree.  It is like saying "well they say capitol (capital would be even worse) city so we'll translate it as Washington DC."  It harms the integrity of the created world.  If Miura would have specifically said Vatican in katakana for some reason, then Vatican it would be, but without that I don't see it being justified.  The church in Berserk is NOT the Catholic church.  There is no Christ in Berserk. They don't have crosses, they have freaky little bird and snake symbols.  To the best of my knowledge these don't show up in most churchs.

Olivier's translations are very simple: Seito = Holy City.  Meca, Avignon, Jerusalem, Rome, etc are all holy cities, and you could say "well Seito refers to a city like the Vatican" and that would be correct in a broad sense, but to take the step to name something the Vatican??  Their simplicity makes them more reliable in my opinion than someone using a similar, more common wording that has a loaded definition.

On to The Holy See ("Hch").  In addition to Olivier's dictoinary.com link, here is one on "see" scroll down a bit for the relevant def I pulled out.
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=See
The official seat, center of authority, jurisdiction, or office of a bishop. This in Catholicism is the Vatican, not the Pope himself hence this website "Vatican: the Holy See" http://www.vatican.va/  Going back to the earlier reference as the head of diocese http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=diocese we can see it works as well.  Plus "Cho" kanji means place.  

Semantically one could perhaps argue that due to the god given role of the pope as resting on the firm rock of peter and his ultimate authority in all matters that he is the center of authority, but the term is not meant be used in this way.  Likewise one could go even further and say that the Bible represents the basis for the Pope, and that it is the center of authority.  What is more likely is that even if "written in the Holy See" is correct it refers to some holy writings contained in the holy city.


I was stating Pentagon/Defense center, Capitol Hill/etc to be facetious. Olivier's point was that there was NO MENTION of the specific word Vatican in the manga. I say he's wrong. There was mention of it. It has nothing to do with silliness or egotism and I'm sorry you took that point so seriously. I was being sarcastic.

I never said anything about Berserk actually having the Catholic Church or Christ in it's world...I said there were strong PARALLELS between the history of the real world and some of the events, names and places in Berserk. Don't put words in my mouth.I said that Miura BORROWS and is INSPIRED by real-life cultural icons, history, mythology, and so forth, and I think most people would agree on that. BASING a story on something is one thing, BEiNG INSPIRED is another.

LPL
« Last Edit: January 02, 2004, 04:07:31 AM by Lady Paradise_Lost »
"The heart has its reasons whereof reason knows nothing...." Pascale

Offline SexyCharlotte

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Re:Episode 232
« Reply #342 on: January 02, 2004, 04:11:39 AM »
Okay, this is sorta out of left field, but consider this:  it was the "rebirth ceremony", was it not, that takes place once every thousand years, approximately?  That seems a bit telling to me... *every* thousand years... meaning it's probably happened more than once or twice, right?  There was very likely a rebirth ceremony taking place during Gaiseric's reign or near to it... meaning God Hand.

Another telling aspect is the fact that Judo and (Casca was it?) couldn't remember whether it was 4 or 5 angels.  During a Rebirth ceremony, one of the God Hand reverts to a (seemingly) mortal form.  So at first there could've been all five, then one is reborn, leaving four... just as Femto was reborn into Griffith again, leaving the other four members behind.

I'm really leery about the Elemental Kings thing.  There were definitely only four of them, and no reason for anybody to *think* there were five.  I mean, there's a remote possibility that it's them, but with all the evidence pointing elsewhere, why make such a random assumption? :)

How would you explain who called down the Godhand then? It's like I was saying...my speculation was that Void was the wise man being tortured ( according to Mosguz) and I think everyone agrees there was some connection between SK( Gaiseric) and particularly Slann. Why? That's anyone's guess as to why.  

At the time of Gaiseric's empirical destruction,  from what I deduced from Mosguz's statement ( translation COULD BE WRONG but that's what I have to go on is my translation) that this wise man being tortured called down the four/five angels. Okay, who were the four? Ubik? Conrad? Slann? And who else?  That's only three.

LPL
"The heart has its reasons whereof reason knows nothing...." Pascale

Offline Trashcan

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Re:Episode 232
« Reply #343 on: January 02, 2004, 04:39:25 AM »
Just finished reviewing ep. 232;based on its content, I do not see how this argument got started. LPL, please argue your case in another thread. This is just getting ridiculous. I don't mind you arguing your case, but couldn't you just PM your arguments to other board members, rather than posting it to this much overburdened thread?
It's always the same. Now if you had the two eyes on the same side of the nose, for instance -- or the mouth at the top -- that would be some help.'

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Re:Episode 232
« Reply #344 on: January 02, 2004, 04:45:00 AM »
YOUR TRANSLATIONS ARE INACCRURATE, LADY LOST. WHY IS THAT SO HARD TO ACCEPT?

DO YOU NOT REALIZE ALL THE THINGS YOU HAVE ACCUSED OLIVIER AND MIZAR OF ARE ACTUALLY YOUR FAULTS IN THIS ARGUMENT?

SKuLL LoRD ------)----@
« Last Edit: January 02, 2004, 04:46:36 AM by SKuLL LoRD_GRiFfiTH_LoST »

Offline Mage

Re:Episode 232
« Reply #345 on: January 02, 2004, 04:52:19 AM »














LPL: You're a conceited drama queen who's THIRTY-FIVE YEARS OLD and you rely on your MOM for Berserk translations?!  And then you still keep quoting #hawks bullshit ::)
« Last Edit: January 02, 2004, 04:53:01 AM by Mage »
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Offline Kart

Re:Episode 232
« Reply #346 on: January 02, 2004, 05:09:15 AM »
This debate is going off all wrong, a new thread needs to be started and posts need to be clear, single post, single question and single response, each arguement should be clearly stated, the entire point of this arguement is lost to me, i don't understand where this is going or even why they are fighting...please try and rekindle this debate in a sensable and understandable matter because for awhile it was interesting.

PS, please post correct translations for the manga sense every one published seems to be wrong.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2004, 05:13:23 AM by Kart »

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