Author Topic: Griffith and Love???  (Read 29934 times)

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Offline Lauralana

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Re:Griffith and Love???
« Reply #25 on: March 02, 2004, 05:05:45 AM »
There is, I think, something similar going on there with Griffith and his motivations-- Guts hates Griffith so much because in some way it is easier and less painful to hate Griffith deeply than it is for Guts to allow to himself that he still cares for Griffith in some way.  Similarly, it was easier for Griffith to sacrifice those he loved most than it was for him to be vulnerable to them.  Basically, even though the sacrifice isn't an expression of Griffith's love, it is driven by his love and his desire to not be vulnerable to it-- much as Guts' hate of Griffith is fueled by his desire not to reconcile himself to the love/betrayal/vulnerability he felt towards Griffith.

that was beautiful....

anyway, the main point here is that there is a thin line b/t love and hate....and it is so hard to see the truth behind people's emotions
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Offline xechnao

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Re:Griffith and Love???
« Reply #26 on: March 02, 2004, 11:17:59 PM »
anyway, the main point here is that there is a thin line b/t love and hate....and it is so hard to see the truth behind people's emotions

It is just that you can't express and describe natural things with just a word: for example "love" or "hate".
GH corrupts this natural complication, by the possibility of another choice. If the Beherit victim has become so insane by it's suffering to accept this supernature, it may sacrifice it's nature.
But this way whole pieces of nature (those pieces linked to the victim) get corrupted by GH's supernature.
For example the people sacrificed but also all this fear and terror and whatever that the "apostolized" victim may bring to it's territory.
So, this is propablly why, when Griffith returned, the natural world began to merge with the supernatural (spiritual) one.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2004, 12:16:52 AM by xechnao »
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Offline miurafan

Re:Griffith and Love???
« Reply #27 on: March 09, 2004, 03:27:44 PM »
Seems to me, when Griffith had to sacrifice Guts, Casca, and the Band of the Hawk, that that was sort of proof that he loved them. If he didn't love/care deeply for them, then it wouldn't have been a sacrifice. A sacrifice hurts you, what you give up has to be something important to you.

A little late, but I wanted to say "good post." That's how I've always seen it, and why I just don't get the point of view of those claiming he wasn't capable of love or emotion.

In the same way, I don't understand the point of view that pre-Eclipse Griffith was evil and would've sacrificed the Hawks in a heartbeat to get what he wanted. Otherwise, what was the point of the whole torture-Griffith-for-a-year thing? If he was always an evil, heartless bastard, there'd have been no need for Miura to create a reason for Griffith to make that sacrifice.

If Griffith used the Hawks to get what he wanted, they used him as well...and I'm not using the word in a negative way, but as mutually beneficial. Judeau is up front about this. They all see Griffith is going somewhere good and they want to go with him, so they hitch their wagons to his rising star.

He delivered; he brought them to the top with him. Unfortunately, it didn't last. What happened at the eclipse doesn't take away from the fact that Griffith upheld his end of the deal. For me, it just makes it all that more tragic.

Sigh. I really miss Judeau. The story needs a practical, grounded, "truth-speaker" character like that. I keep hoping Serpico will develop along those lines, but he's more screwed-up than Judeau ever was.

Offline nir085

Re:Griffith and Love???
« Reply #28 on: March 10, 2004, 02:11:19 AM »
Serpico is like a mix between Corkus and Judeau.
Judeau because he always protects Farnese (instead of Casca) and Corkus because he wants to kill Guts even though he's on the same side hehe.

I personally miss Pippin, he is my favorite BOTH member (out of Judeau/Casca/Corkus/Rickert/Gaston). He is so underrated but I think that if he was in the second eclipse, he would have definitely survived (since he wouldn't have been surrounded by 4+ huge apostles one of which was the Count).

Offline miurafan

Re:Griffith and Love???
« Reply #29 on: March 11, 2004, 01:57:06 AM »
Serpico is like a mix between Corkus and Judeau.

I don't think Serpico feels that way about Guts any more, not since he reliquished Farnese's safety to Guts after he was wounded.

I miss Pippin, too. It's just that he wasn't as chatty as Judeau. My favorite Pippin moments ... when he slung Guts over his shoulder and carried him to the party and when he popped up at Guts' side to fight Wyald/Wild.

I guess Guts' new companions are more high-strung and not as cuddly as Judeau, Pippin, and Rickert.  ;)

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Re:Griffith and Love???
« Reply #30 on: March 13, 2004, 03:56:39 AM »
Well, their world is more high-strung too... so I can see how it's reflected in the new band's personalities.

Offline Shierke

Re:Griffith and Love???
« Reply #31 on: May 16, 2004, 07:59:18 PM »
Griffith loved Guts. End of story.

If I were Casca I'd be worried about Guts too...

^__^ Yup.. Griffith loved Guts. End of story.

My brother found in my computer a doujinshi yaoi from Berserk, with GutsXGriffith. He starts to scream: YOU WILL GO TO HELL!!! YOU WILL GO TO HELL!! I WILL KILL YOU!!! ^__^

He almost kill me, because he is a big berserk fan, specially Guts.. And he HATES yaoi.. : )

Well, that was funny... And after that, i start to like more berserk.. ^__^

And yaoi too..

Offline DemonX

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Re:Griffith and Love???
« Reply #32 on: May 17, 2004, 01:44:36 AM »
Just like i like hentai.... ::)
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Offline Eddie

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Re:Griffith and Love???
« Reply #33 on: May 17, 2004, 01:59:00 AM »
^__^ Yup.. Griffith loved Guts. End of story.

My brother found in my computer a doujinshi yaoi from Berserk, with GutsXGriffith. He starts to scream: YOU WILL GO TO HELL!!! YOU WILL GO TO HELL!! I WILL KILL YOU!!! ^__^

He almost kill me, because he is a big berserk fan, specially Guts.. And he HATES yaoi.. : )

Well, that was funny... And after that, i start to like more berserk.. ^__^

And yaoi too..
Yes ^_^ but theres a fine line between loving someone ^_^ and just assfucking the hell out of them ^_^. Like they say ^_^ don't mistake sex for love.
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Offline Kyosuke

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Re:Griffith and Love???
« Reply #34 on: May 18, 2004, 02:06:05 AM »
I don't thnk Griffith ever loved Charlotte. I think the closest thing Griffith ever found to love was Guts. I think as a human Griffith could have had the capacity for love, but who knows now?

I personaly think the closest Griffith can come to love is caring for someone as a important tool, something he needs to achieve his dreams (I'm suddenly picturing Charlotte as a power tool). And in his own way that seeing someones value in relation to his needs is perhaps a form of love itself.

All in all I do think Griffith can love in his own way, but in terms of "Love" as we think of it... No way he loves himself far too much to make the sacrifices (look at who he DID sacrifice when the choice arose) needed to truely love someone.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2004, 02:06:52 AM by Kyosuke »

ELEKTROFUNK

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Re:Griffith and Love???
« Reply #35 on: May 18, 2004, 08:46:24 PM »
Griffith only loves himself.

Offline Eddie

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Re:Griffith and Love???
« Reply #36 on: May 18, 2004, 11:15:52 PM »
Griffith only loves himself.
This is true, but it also seems like Griffith had a love for Casca, he is really the only one he ever seemed open to...her and guts...But Casca was a poor child, and then became a Mercenary under him, so him being with her would do him no good as far as his dream goes.
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Offline Miyu

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Re:Griffith and Love???
« Reply #37 on: May 19, 2004, 12:02:27 AM »
This is true, but it also seems like Griffith had a love for Casca, he is really the only one he ever seemed open to...her and guts...But Casca was a poor child, and then became a Mercenary under him, so him being with her would do him no good as far as his dream goes.

I'd definitely say that Casca was the one woman Griffith was the closest to.  Yes, Griffith may have had sex with Charlotte, but she was and is the one woman who will ensure him the crown to the throne of Midland.  As affections for a woman goes, Casca has it.  When Griffith was shown a possible future for him during the eclipse, he imagined himself with Casca taking care of him.  Reborn Griffith also has more emotios vested into Casca since she bore the vessel for his new body.  I don't think the love that he shares for Casca is the same type of love that a husband and wife would share, but definitely something deep beyond just simple friendship.
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Offline C

Re:Griffith and Love???
« Reply #38 on: May 19, 2004, 06:33:23 AM »
i agree with what kyosuke said about him loving people as an important tool,

Casca was a sword for him, a shoulder at some points,

she also was a vessel for his new body,

a very valuable tool,

princess charlote, theres another tool example,

guts of course being one of his most valuable tools, of course that is the only one that blew up on him,

but i dont think he really has "love" for Casca,

hes just very fond of her ability to aid him,

yes,maybe, no?  :D

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Offline Woland

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Re:Griffith and Love???
« Reply #39 on: May 19, 2004, 05:33:42 PM »
I think that Griffith loved Guts and Casca not simply as tools, deep down.  But the emotional hardening he had to do to chase his dream allowed him only to express it as an affection for tools.
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Offline BiQ--

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Re:Griffith and Love???
« Reply #40 on: May 19, 2004, 07:08:49 PM »
Griffith's emotions for Guts were definitely something more than just "a very valuable tool". Just think about it: BotH had just gotten itself a somewhat comfortable place in midland, war was going to be over (no more dire need for Guts' abilities) and Griffith was in steady direction upwards in ranks...

Actually, if he had kept his pants on, I think he could have eventually achieved the throne without all the things that happened after screwing things up with Charlotte. At his current knowledge (I'm assuming he was [at least then] not any kind of clairvoyant) at the time, there was no reason to go have sex with princess Charlotte, actually it was just a "huge risk with no actual possible benefits" situation.

So, he must have been very shaken after Guts took his leave.

ok, going up to Charlotte's chambers and having some "lovely intimacy" with her would have probably served as some kind of psychological game for her heart, which would probably be beneficial in the race for her hand & throne of Midland... Or not. It's not like princes & princesses got really that much of a say who they married in those times.

And if you're now going to say that the king "was not going to let anyone marry Charlotte in any case", Griffith learned this only after he was already on course for a little "extreme experiences" vacation special with the torturer.

Then again, then there wouldn't have had been eclipse, branding of Guts & Casca, sacrificing of original BotH, emergence of Black Swordsman & Beast, no apostles roaming around like they were going out of style, and generally Miura would have been in a pinch since the whole Taka no Dan arc was just a recap what had happened earlier that started after Black Swordsman killed the Count... so probably it was Fated that Griffith would go screw the princess.

Offline Kyosuke

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Re:Griffith and Love???
« Reply #41 on: May 19, 2004, 07:15:29 PM »
Griffith's emotions for Guts were definitely something more than just "a very valuable tool". Just think about it: BotH had just gotten itself a somewhat comfortable place in midland, war was going to be over (no more dire need for Guts' abilities) and Griffith was in steady direction upwards in ranks...

Actually, if he had kept his pants on, I think he could have eventually achieved the throne without all the things that happened after screwing things up with Charlotte. At his current knowledge (I'm assuming he was [at least then] not any kind of clairvoyant) at the time, there was no reason to go have sex with princess Charlotte, actually it was just a "huge risk with no actual possible benefits" situation.

So, he must have been very shaken after Guts took his leave.

ok, going up to Charlotte's chambers and having some "lovely intimacy" with her would have probably served as some kind of psychological game for her heart, which would probably be beneficial in the race for her hand & throne of Midland... Or not. It's not like princes & princesses got really that much of a say who they married in those times.

And if you're now going to say that the king "was not going to let anyone marry Charlotte in any case", Griffith learned this only after he was already on course for a little "extreme experiences" vacation special with the torturer.

Then again, then there wouldn't have had been eclipse, branding of Guts & Casca, sacrificing of original BotH, emergence of Black Swordsman & Beast, no apostles roaming around like they were going out of style, and generally Miura would have been in a pinch since the whole Taka no Dan arc was just a recap what had happened earlier that started after Black Swordsman killed the Count... so probably it was Fated that Griffith would go screw the princess.

You obviously didn't grasp that scene... the reason why Griffith freaked out was becasue that was the first time in his whole life that he's ever LOST.

His delusions of infalability were shattered along with his sword when Guts won. He realized he was not the best at everything, that he was not better than everyone like he though. Thats why he flipped out and jumped Charlottes bones.

That incident was the firrst time he's ever experienced doubt, both of himself and his abilities to achieve what he wanted... and that scared him.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2004, 07:19:03 PM by Kyosuke »

Offline Sparnage

Re:Griffith and Love???
« Reply #42 on: May 21, 2004, 12:53:09 AM »
You obviously didn't grasp that scene... the reason why Griffith freaked out was becasue that was the first time in his whole life that he's ever LOST.

His delusions of infalability were shattered along with his sword when Guts won. He realized he was not the best at everything, that he was not better than everyone like he though. Thats why he flipped out and jumped Charlottes bones.

That incident was the firrst time he's ever experienced doubt, both of himself and his abilities to achieve what he wanted... and that scared him.

It was certainly more than that. Not long after he has sex with Charlotte he is holding the mark Guts left him in tears and I dont think its just because he lost.

Griffith was known for being able to get a hold of people in his "grasp" essentially and was able to manipulate but with Guts he was aware he could not keep close the same level of power over him.
Guts in a way is like Griffith, as he has a huge impact over people around him (Puck, Isidro, Farnese as some examples) and especially seeing even Griffith who was so cold that anyone under him was only to him a good worker rather than a friend but somehow Guts was held higher to him even before he left.

Im sure he was sad about losing, but no doubt also because he lost the most important person to him.


Offline DemonX

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Re:Griffith and Love???
« Reply #43 on: May 21, 2004, 02:24:47 AM »
Gotta agree with sparnage. When Griffith was screwing charolette, he was thinking of Guts (which could prove some of my previous theories about griffith and homosexualty ;)). He lost his only friend, because he considered guts his only equal, or close to it. Thats why when guts tried to leave, griff didn't care if guts was killed, because guts life was forfit if he didnt belong to griff. However, even after the duel, griff still cared for guts (friendly way), and he really didn't want guts around when he summoned the godshand. He may even still care for guts in the current chapters, but that is debatable.
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Offline Black_Scarlet

Re: Griffith and Love???
« Reply #44 on: January 31, 2005, 10:16:36 AM »
Casca ~ Casca to me plays a very powerful female role in his life…Griffith was able to really open up to her and tell her things that he didn’t tell the rest of the hawks (but he didn’t  just tell her, he actually showed her…remember the lake scene where he was ripping his flesh…he showed her even a man like him can feel pain and get depressed), or how about the scene when he goes on top of Casca and stares into her eyes and is shaking (he is the type that u can read his eyes…it looked as if he was trying to say “don’t leave me“, or how about the time he had that dream that Casca was taking care of him, he stated that he liked it, but just to find out it was only a dream, then tried to kill himself soon after the fact.)  How about the rape…I know when u rape someone it doesn’t really mean u love them but I think there was a purpose to it, haven’t u noticed that Griffith has a issue with possession…even with Guts he would say “you are mine” the same may imply to Casca too,  he may have raped Casca in front of Guts to show him that Casca is his and no one else’s  ( it’s kinda like Casca is Femto’s little toy, like he can do what ever he wants to her because she is his property.)  How about Griffith reborn, this Griffith also shows a great love for Casca, because he protected her, and it also seem that he was hurt because he could not be near her for long (because of her brand) …which leads to Griffith ending the fight early between Zodd and Guts (not to mention that she is the mother of the body he is using) or how about the little symbolism shit, like she is his sword and he is her sheath….I also believe it to be true because Casca would to anything for Griffith often acting even tougher then him and also reinforces his commands, and also how every time he would touch her she and he would calm down if something was bothering them.  I have also noticed that Casca has a heart on her sword (coincidence) and how about her brand it is on the left part of her chest (where her heart is at).

Guts ~ Well Guts is a very important part of Griffith’s life as well…u can truly say that he is sorta Griffith’s equal, he was also Griffith’s closest friend, Griffith would often risk his life for Guts (he doesn’t do that for any one else).  It is easy to see that Griffith was deeply depressed that he left…and it not just because Guts beat him in a sword fight.  The words that Griffith uses to express his feelings about Guts sounds sorta romantic…I’m not saying he is gay but it is hard to tell what Griffith really feels about him, which leaves most of us confused (if anyone has doujinshi yaoi pics please send them to me, yeah I’m a Yaoi fan girl) but if anything you can tell that Griffith does love Guts like a type of brother or best friend or something more…but I think it’s more like a brother type of love.


Charlotte ~ is just a big ass stepping stone/booty call for Griffith  to become king and nothing more.   

The two people that Griffith loves the most are the same two people that survived the eclipse…Femto had the perfect opportunity to kill both Casca and Guts but decided to let them escape (which proved to me that there my be some feelings that still linger inside femto (if he truly didn‘t give a shit then he would have already killed them with out a second thought).  I have noticed that Griffith only lets out his insecurities in front of both Casca and Guts often speaking down upon himself asking questions like  “ do u think I’m disgusting ?” (Casca) and “Do u think that I am dreadful?” (Guts) asking questions of how they think of him.  They are the people that keep him sane…I believe if both Casca and Guts left at the same time he would have killed himself in a heartbeat, and how about Griffith's feelings about Casca and Guts relationship, in the beginning Griffith really wanted them to get along and after awhile they did, that made Griffith really happy and u can see in official pics that in group pictures Griffith is holding both Guts and Casca (so cute) but when they became a couple Griffith got really jealous (aw poor Griffith) …I'm just saying that they both play different and same  roles in Griffith heart.

Sorry if I typed all fucked up but I’m like ½ asleep sorry.

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Offline Walter

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Re: Griffith and Love???
« Reply #45 on: January 31, 2005, 10:29:16 PM »

Charlotte ~ is just a big ass stepping stone/booty call for Griffith  to become king and nothing more.   

This is the most popular approach to the Charlotte/Griffith controversy. However, it disregards a key scene in the manga, from volume 10. Here are the key pages of the scene in question.

Where the anime only emphasized Griffith's seizing of Charlotte, the manga gives us a deeper look into their relationship.  Here, Charlotte sacrifices herself for Griffith's protection.  The look on Griffith's face isn't arbitrary.  He's genuinely concerned about her safety.  He even takes time out of the escape to reassure her he will return for her (the elusive 4-panel lip-speak says: 'I will return').

Clearly, there is more at stake here than the use of a tool.  This leads me to believe that even Griffith may not know the depths of his affection for Charlotte. It certianly would muck up his plans if he were to fall in love or even care for his tool.

PS: Then again, there's this bit that completely throws my whole theory out the window:

« Last Edit: January 31, 2005, 10:33:46 PM by Walter »
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Offline Rhombaad

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Re: Griffith and Love???
« Reply #46 on: January 31, 2005, 10:33:17 PM »
It certianly would much up his plans if he were to fall in love or even care for his tool.
Not to mention adding more depth to the story and the character of Griffith, as well.  Better than the simple explanation of him just using her, in my opinion.

Offline KuraiDragoon

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Re: Griffith and Love???
« Reply #47 on: February 01, 2005, 01:40:55 PM »
Clearly, there is more at stake here than the use of a tool.  This leads me to believe that even Griffith may not know the depths of his affection for Charlotte. It certianly would muck up his plans if he were to fall in love or even care for his tool.
It seems like a definate possibility. He wouldn't at all expect it.. and probably wouldn't even realize it until long after it's happened.. but it may end up happening.
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Offline Sparnage

Re: Griffith and Love???
« Reply #48 on: February 08, 2005, 02:33:25 PM »
I dunno, I believe what Griffith says as a human was made to be tied into the future with his choices and thoughts, and going back to the conversation he originally has with Charlotte about a friend being someone who equals him was a very important part in the story. He was good to his underlings, he treated them with respect and looked after them in any way he could which even involved having sex with an old man.

If to the extent that he looks at Charlotte affectionately the same way as his underlings then yeah I agree with that, but they are all tools for him to get to his position. He doesn't even class them as friends, I don't believe Charlotte is an exception to this.
In volume 10, chapter 2 he admits the only person who was not in his control was Guts, the rest he had no real problems manipulating and he knew this. Being affectionate towards Charlotte? Probably, but how much can you care for someone you are hell bent on manipulating them for your own selfish desires?

On top of this, this was the sort of person he was BEFORE he sacrificed his humanity to become a demon king....
« Last Edit: February 08, 2005, 02:35:11 PM by Sparnage »

Offline Khorne

Re: Griffith and Love???
« Reply #49 on: March 09, 2005, 07:46:36 AM »
Griffith is a mix of a sociopath, a psychopath, and every other "path" you can think of.
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