Author Topic: Griffith and Love???  (Read 29464 times)

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Offline *Gyom*

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Re: Griffith and Love???
« Reply #50 on: March 09, 2005, 08:31:43 AM »
Is "path partout" working here ? :P

Offline Yukimura

Re: Griffith and Love???
« Reply #51 on: March 10, 2005, 12:22:20 AM »
YOU CANT TAKE MY SOUL AWAY FROM ME

Offline C

Re: Griffith and Love???
« Reply #52 on: March 10, 2005, 12:40:16 AM »
Quote
Posted by: Vic Viper      Posted on: Today at 07:22:20 PM

Already posted

Actually that takes you to the top of the page, the very first post on that page. Unfortunately your post is at the very bottom, here:

http://www.skullknight.net/forum/index.php?topic=3672.msg81421#msg81421

There, that will keep people from thinking you meant the whole thread.  :)

 - C

Offline Yukimura

Re: Griffith and Love???
« Reply #53 on: March 10, 2005, 12:51:58 AM »
There, that will keep people from thinking you meant the whole thread.  :)
 - C
Lol, its funny because i meant the WHOLE topic, but that gives me an excuse not to post my hands off about this topic.
who did griffith really once loved??  Griffith's only goal was to gain power. He was a just man who gained many followers, but the first signs of his evil appear as he is tourtured and imprisoned for a year for the crime of makeing love to the princess of the kingdom he served. As his grip on reality began to loosen, he blamed it all on Guts, his most trusted man and in many ways best friend. Because Guts decided to leave the Hawks, Griffith blamed him for his own predicament. Even after being rescued by Guts and some of the Hawks, he grows jealous of the relationship between Guts and Casca, a female member of the Hawks who had previously been obsessed with Griffith. His ambition having been destroyed, he was visited by the four angels; the godhand. These servants of god promised to give him ultimate power and his dream of ruleing, but there had to be a sacrifice. Griffith sacrificed his men, the Hawks, the people who loved and admired him, without a second thought. As they were brutally massacred by the servents of the godhand, Griffith died and Femto, the final member of the godhand was born. The only people left alive at that point were Guts and Casca, so in order to spite the man who he blamed for his misfortune, he raped Casca and forced Guts to watch. Even Charlotte Her self Was A tool. He was using her to become king.
there so Grifith cant love anyone, but i think that makes the story really dull. maybe  Kentarou Miura should Rethink this  :-\
« Last Edit: March 11, 2005, 12:02:22 AM by Vic Viper »
YOU CANT TAKE MY SOUL AWAY FROM ME

Offline QUeeN typhonblue

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Re:Griffith and Love???
« Reply #54 on: April 06, 2005, 01:27:31 AM »
Just like i like hentai.... ::)

Why mention this?

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Blink, and you almost miss the yaoi in Berserk!

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Offline Oddangelck

Re: Griffith and Love???
« Reply #55 on: July 23, 2007, 03:34:24 AM »
Casca ~ Casca to me plays a very powerful female role in his life…Griffith was able to really open up to her and tell her things that he didn’t tell the rest of the hawks (but he didn’t  just tell her, he actually showed her…remember the lake scene where he was ripping his flesh…he showed her even a man like him can feel pain and get depressed), or how about the scene when he goes on top of Casca and stares into her eyes and is shaking (he is the type that u can read his eyes…it looked as if he was trying to say “don’t leave me“, or how about the time he had that dream that Casca was taking care of him, he stated that he liked it, but just to find out it was only a dream, then tried to kill himself soon after the fact.)  How about the rape…I know when u rape someone it doesn’t really mean u love them but I think there was a purpose to it, haven’t u noticed that Griffith has a issue with possession…even with Guts he would say “you are mine” the same may imply to Casca too,  he may have raped Casca in front of Guts to show him that Casca is his and no one else’s  ( it’s kinda like Casca is Femto’s little toy, like he can do what ever he wants to her because she is his property.)  How about Griffith reborn, this Griffith also shows a great love for Casca, because he protected her, and it also seem that he was hurt because he could not be near her for long (because of her brand) …which leads to Griffith ending the fight early between Zodd and Guts (not to mention that she is the mother of the body he is using) or how about the little symbolism shit, like she is his sword and he is her sheath….I also believe it to be true because Casca would to anything for Griffith often acting even tougher then him and also reinforces his commands, and also how every time he would touch her she and he would calm down if something was bothering them.  I have also noticed that Casca has a heart on her sword (coincidence) and how about her brand it is on the left part of her chest (where her heart is at).

WOW-that was great. I love Guts and Casca-truly I do b/c to me Guts seems like the Everyday guy trying to catch a break, and his love and loyalty to Casca is so intense and raw. BUT in a VERY WEIRD way I really like Griffith-or the him before the eclipse, and Casca. And to me I think he began to love Guts like a brother- like family, and I think if he did love Casca like a man loves a woman.  I think if Griffith wanted a "simple" life it would have been Casca as his wife and Guts as his best friend with their kids named after Guts, and some other guys from the Hawks-like his dream sequence before the eclipse showed.  BUT- Griffith wanted more. And "simple" love and friendship was not enough for him.
Casca understood this and wondered where she fit in it all- b/c she did love Griffith, like a woman loves a man from my view- but so him as unattainable. She also felt that she was no use to him-being replaced as his sword (by Guts) and not being able to be his lady (b/c that naive character that i don't like Charlotte served Griffith need to be king) so I think she felt that with Guts she was needed, and that she needed him as well- an equal, a partner-BUT I think it would be a bit more confusing for her if she did think Griffith was attainable-but the eclipse changed all of this.
But truly- I was kind of hoping for a Casca/Griffith thing before the eclipse went down- I think they would have been dynamite together. 
I think it will be super interesting when Casca gets her memory back and how she reacts to Griffith- who still holds a spot for he (having the body of her demon child and all and PERHAPS still holding some of his own feelings towards her) and the situation of the rape and all...
But yeah, I think he loved Casca-and I'm sticking to it-lol

-OCK

Offline Blues

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Re: Griffith and Love???
« Reply #56 on: August 08, 2007, 01:42:18 AM »
Not to dig more up out of this ancient thing, but I feel like adding some thoughts on your quoted post.

To the best of my personal reflection, Femto did not rape Casca as a means of giving into his own lust or desires for Casca, but purely as a means to taunt Guts and only to do just that. Even during the Eclipse, the last sight he sees is Guts, and he makes those remarks regarding his dream, it is Guts he holds in contempt during that rape in my opinion, not the fact he wanted to give Casca a good sexing just because he could.

I also am not prone to the scenario that Casca wanted to be Griffith's woman. It was pretty clear to me at least, imprisoned Griffith or not, she had long since been becoming more romantically attached to Guts, where as she continued to view Griffith as an untouchable painting. She showed a bit of jealousy with Charlotte, but it screamed more of a "lost chance" than complete contempt for "CharlottexGriffith".

Thirdly, I don't think Casca and Griffith were ever intended for each other. Well, there is that one "dream" where Griffith invisions Casca house-wifing him while "little Guts" plays in the street, but in my hindsight, that was my view of a dreamcrusher, a giving in to the "common" life, maybe something he secretly wanted deep down but in truth was crushed by the weight of his dream/"destiny" regardless. The only other big hint of a relationship in the romantic lingo between her and Griffith is when he notices how deep their relationship has gotten after his rescue. Again, to me it was more of a "shock" than "Oh god Damn it Guts, that was MY woman!"

As for the events in Volume 22, This is purely a reaction, again, best of my knowledge, that comes from the child, not from Griffith, and gives him shock at feeling what should otherwise be a black void.

Online Walter

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Re: Griffith and Love???
« Reply #57 on: August 08, 2007, 03:08:08 PM »
To the best of my personal reflection, Femto did not rape Casca as a means of giving into his own lust or desires for Casca, but purely as a means to taunt Guts and only to do just that. Even during the Eclipse, the last sight he sees is Guts, and he makes those remarks regarding his dream, it is Guts he holds in contempt during that rape in my opinion, not the fact he wanted to give Casca a good sexing just because he could.
Well, then it appears your personal reflection disregarded a scene in volume 12, where Griffith fell on top of Casca in a desperate realization of his physical impotence. The man was utterly broken and lost his mojo in that dungeon. It's understandable, though not justifiable, that he'd flaunt his powers on Casca, the woman he'd failed to woo with his broken body just hours earlier.

While sure, the rape was a power play in many senses, you can't just throw away the aspect of  him showing off his regained (and enhanced) physical prowess after having his tendons removed for a year.

:femto: :slan: :ubik:

Offline Blues

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Re: Griffith and Love???
« Reply #58 on: August 08, 2007, 04:47:34 PM »
Well, then it appears your personal reflection disregarded a scene in volume 12, where Griffith fell on top of Casca in a desperate realization of his physical impotence.
Actually, I didn't disregard it entirely so much as not remembering any detail that would relate to the rape, and why I said "recollection", it has been a long time since I read the volumes of old and that was one of the details I was unclear, I generally tend to regard it as you said, a note of physical impotence/mobility in general.

I get the idea of him saying "look what I can do!" but my point was the motive behind it all was a stab at Guts, and Casca being more of a tool for that than just him looking for a new way to show off his rediscovered mojo. Obviously he chose to "rape" Casca for a reason versus just, blowing her to bits or giving her to the apostles. My only point is the primary one being revenge and not just lust. Again, my take.

Offline Okin

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Re: Griffith and Love???
« Reply #59 on: August 27, 2007, 06:20:43 AM »
This was raised from the dead wasn't it?

Personally, I don't care. Really I don't.

Griffith tries to be as logical as possible normally. He justifies all his actions by claiming the people he surrounds himself with are tools. He was emotionally attached, however, to all of them to some extent. Remember how he trembled in the river, when he was thinking about the hawks that have died for him, or how he struggled with the mounds of dead that paved his way to the castle? He truly did feel human guilt for their deaths, and therefore care for their lives. He obviously had stronger attachments to Casca and especially Guts, who actually caused him to act highly irrationally on several occasions. Love is a very vague term. Griffith at least "loved" Guts and Casca enough to be shaken by the thought of losing them whether to each other or by seperation. He also "loved" his soldiers enough to mourn, and physically harm himself at the thought of losing them.

When he sacrificed them logic must have won over "love", or perhaps he convinced himself that if he truly "loved" them, he would honor all their efforts by doing what would most likely make him king.
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Offline Emma

Re: Griffith and Love???
« Reply #60 on: September 09, 2007, 04:40:35 PM »
Well, after reading this entire thread, I've come to the conclusion that Griffith is madly in love with...GENNON!  :serpico: Such a beautiful relationship, and so tragic!

No, not really. Okay, anyway.

This is kinda hard actually...I mean, I know for sure that he doesn't love Charlotte as much as Guts and Casca. I mean, I do feel like he has SOMETHING for her, even if it's very little, but in the end she's just a tool. I think he loved his Band of the Hawk; they're his pride and joy, I suppose, but I think he may have had actual feelings for Guts and Casca whether they're sexual feelings or not...or both.  :schierke: Or something.

This is actually kind of hard to decide on...

Offline becchii

Re: Griffith and Love???
« Reply #61 on: October 19, 2007, 02:59:24 PM »
Woo first post. Sorry to bump an old thread... I suppose I'll get flamed to go read the manga 500 times again before posting for the hell of it :p

Anyway, I always felt that Griffith's act of shielding Casca on the hill of swords had to be some kind of emotion some way or another. Either it was some part of the demon child retaining its emotions, or it was on purpose so that Casca can be retained for future exploitation (because she is the strongest trigger to unleash Guts' reaction), or alternatively just to breed that little bit more anger from Guts to see that nasty, bad Griffith touching Casca (and she doesn't even know what it means).

Of course I guess there's more of a chance it's the former than the latter considering that Casca may not have actually died from being hit and therefore the aim of "keeping her alive for more exploitation" didn't require Griffith's intervention, and Miura didn't dwell on Guts anger/reaction to Griffith holding Casca even if it was just Griffith showing off, so perhaps Griffith didn't shield her for those reasons... but personally I'd like to believe that that's the case anyway because er... of the way Griffith was looking at Guts and not Casca when protecting her (bad reason, but hey, it's Miura's conscious decision to draw it like that, uh...)
I only recently started reading other peoples' reactions to Berserk, but ever since I first read the manga (...3 years ago? Sad, I know) I always thought that Griffith's use of Casca during the Eclipse was primarily to force out the ultimate suffering and hatred from the one person who "made him forget his dreams" and this was just the same thing.

The point of how this links to the idea of "love" is that the very fact that he wants to provoke Guts still means that he does... care about him a lot, in a sadistic way. It's because he had the strongest connection to Guts which is why he wants to try the hardest to ruin him, anger him and break him, even now. I'll throw in a quote from another anime, which may or may not apply: "The opposite of love is not hatred, it's apathy". Which doesn't mean Griffith loves Guts right now, but I think it's a corrupted version of it. Especially compared to his attitude to everyone else. At least the emotional connection is still there; I believe he's not 100% cold just yet. As for why Griffith hasn't done any more until now to further torment Guts, I chalk it up to Miura thinking it'll be too repetitive, and (perhaps) Griffith being aware of any slip in rational thinking should he be around Guts too long (because of his body or otherwise). Shouldn't Guts have merely been another body piled up on his road to the castle? No, I think Guts is like the guy who pursues him until the end, walking over dead bodies as well, until there's just the two of them left and Guts is the last guy left before Griffith reaches his final destination, and the hardest to put down. If that doesn't come with some form of emotional attachment I'll be darned, but of course now I'm talking in metaphors so it's likely this might not be the case, though I do think the original one was genuinely relevant in a more direct way (unlike certain fishes and streams, perhaps)

...okay, enough bullshit, I'll go away :(
DISCLAIMER: This post sucks, thank you.

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Griffith and Love???
« Reply #62 on: October 19, 2007, 04:50:36 PM »
Hey becchii, welcome.

Anyway, I always felt that Griffith's act of shielding Casca on the hill of swords had to be some kind of emotion some way or another. Either it was some part of the demon child retaining its emotions

It's made very clear that it's an instinctive reaction from what's left of the Demon Child that made him protect her. I don't think anything else needs to be said about it. You can also see him reacting when he watches Guts fighting with Zodd, implying that the child's remnants influences him when it comes to his parents.

As for why Griffith hasn't done any more until now to further torment Guts, I chalk it up to Miura thinking it'll be too repetitive

Or maybe, you know, Griffith is exerting himself to be apathetic with Guts, like he's been saying ever since the Occultation.

Offline Okin

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Re: Griffith and Love???
« Reply #63 on: October 19, 2007, 09:44:41 PM »
What becchi said just made me realize something. As the child was attracted to Guts, so much so that it followed him everywhere, shouldn't Griffith's obsession (can't think of a more subtle word) with Guts only grow by ignoring him and continuing with his schemes? Griffith was able to suppress protecting Guts during a fight, but he still couldn't ignore him. By the time they finally due meet again, Griffith will be so absorbed by their encounter, he may forget all about his own plans at the time. Before I never thought anything could disrupt Griffith's success unless a certain someone was done with him ( :idea:), but now I believe Guts can really play a significant role in Griffith's life again.

Also, this is the first aspect of Griffith's mortality I've noticed that hinders him. It may be the only fault, but I can see it causing serious complications now that Griffith's very body is attracted to Guts.
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Offline Aazealh

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Re: Griffith and Love???
« Reply #64 on: October 19, 2007, 11:00:18 PM »
shouldn't Griffith's obsession (can't think of a more subtle word) with Guts only grow by ignoring him and continuing with his schemes?

Well... No? What makes you think Griffith is "obsessed" with Guts at all anymore? He came to see him after he was incarnated, told him nothing had changed for him, then went away and hasn't shown any interest in him since. At best we can just say he acknowledged him at the end of episode 278. You seem to be overlooking the fact that Griffith is a different person now, he's not the man he was before the Occultation. His attitude towards Guts now is pretty much the same than that of Femto in volume 3.

Griffith was able to suppress protecting Guts during a fight, but he still couldn't ignore him.

He felt something when he saw Guts fight, but it's quite a stretch to say he had to stop himself from protecting him... Nothing hints at it. Besides, Guts didn't even need any protection at that moment.

By the time they finally due meet again, Griffith will be so absorbed by their encounter, he may forget all about his own plans at the time.

He didn't seem to forget anything in Vritannis. And it's pretty much the other way around, really. It's Guts that forgets his plans and priorities whenever someone mentions Griffith. In volume 21 he stopped and just stared at him when he was incarnated, in volume 27 the simple mention of "The Hawk" was enough to almost make him lose it to the armor, and in episode 278, he had to be reminded of his priorities by Serpico. There are plenty of other examples. Guts' life revolves around Griffith, not vice versa.

Also, this is the first aspect of Griffith's mortality I've noticed that hinders him. It may be the only fault, but I can see it causing serious complications now that Griffith's very body is attracted to Guts.

I'm not sure "mortality" is the word to use here. And Griffith's body isn't attracted to Guts, what's that even supposed to mean? Carnal desires? :schierke: What's left of the Demon Child in him reacted feebly when he saw Guts fight, for now that's all we can say about it. Rather what should end up being Griffith's undoing is probably going to be his efforts to ignore Guts. It's one thing to say that he's powerless, meaningless and insignificant, but in actuality it isn't true. So far he hasn't proven to be a serious threat to the God Hand, but that might change... And when it does, it'll be too late for them to do anything about it.

Offline Luca

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Re: Griffith and Love???
« Reply #65 on: October 19, 2007, 11:44:44 PM »
Welcome, becchi : )

I may just be reiterating other opinions, but I'll state this:

Guts is making an active effort to fight history from repeating iteself.  He's learned from the past and will not abandon the people he cares about again, or at least this is what we've seen him tell himself.

The poetic justice about Griffith is that once again he is ignoring feelings inside of him (even if they are not of his own, at the moment) that will potentially destroy him in the future. 

It is his willful apathy and ignorance concerning Guts that might just do him in.  It doesn't make the Guts and Griffith bond or animosity any less integral to the storyline or lessened at all, it's just evolved and will continue to do so, even when they are not around each other.  Griffith isn't really obsessed with him, though, but I imagine he'll be pissed when Guts once again becomes a threat to him  :carcus: not just physically, but emotionally too.
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Offline Beld

Re: Griffith and Love???
« Reply #66 on: November 07, 2007, 11:04:59 PM »

I think that before the eclipse griffith could and did love.  The fact that one of the godhand said his tears would be wiped clean is proof enough to me that he had human emotions just like everyone else.

The catch is he had been fighting with his emotions for so long trying to control them and disregard them so while he did love I think he probably felt it was pointless and a weakness of his to love anyone.

Offline A.C

Re: Griffith and Love???
« Reply #67 on: November 09, 2007, 09:25:43 AM »
he loved Casca, Guts and all of the Band of the Hawk. otherwise his sacrifice would have been meaningless.

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Griffith and Love???
« Reply #68 on: November 09, 2007, 09:55:24 AM »
he loved Casca, Guts and all of the Band of the Hawk. otherwise his sacrifice would have been meaningless.

They were certainly precious to him, but if you want to be precise, the actual word "love" isn't used and his actions do not make it definite. I personally wouldn't say Griffith loved every grunt in his army, and love isn't the only feeling expressing care and affection anyway.

The beherit-apostle sacrificed the world around him, yet we really can't say he loved it.

Offline A.C

Re: Griffith and Love???
« Reply #69 on: November 09, 2007, 05:08:06 PM »
the logical step would be to say he didn't love anyone then.

Offline Mista_B

Re: Griffith and Love???
« Reply #70 on: November 11, 2007, 12:55:03 AM »
he loved Casca, Guts and all of the Band of the Hawk. otherwise his sacrifice would have been meaningless.

Rather than 'love', perhaps the more accurate term would be 'value.'

Offline Okin

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Re: Griffith and Love???
« Reply #71 on: November 13, 2007, 03:26:33 PM »
"Value" seems a bit cold. Maybe "cares about"?
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Offline Melorik

Re: Griffith and Love???
« Reply #72 on: December 14, 2007, 03:53:39 AM »
Alright I think I'll try and take a stab at this.

I just went through the early Manga and from what I gather, you can't really categorize Griffith as "Loving" the Hawks (Guts and Casca included). By that I mean, traditionally (at least as far as I gather), Love for others generally implies that you care about them more than yourself. In Griffith's case, I would definately say that he cared about the hawks, in as much as he could without placing their interests above his own.

After he got crippled in the torture chamber, it was made brutally obvious that his dream was effectively at an end. To add insult to injury, Guts had surpassed him in every way, both in combat and leadership ability (since Griffith was in no position to lead), as well as being the focal point for Casca's affection. On that note, I don't think Griffith really felt anything romantic for Casca, but when her affection turned towards Guts, he did feel jealousy simply because Guts in many ways, had replaced him. I don't think anything could hurt as much as the realization that one is useless.

For someone like Griffith, the humiliation would probably be  unbearable. In many ways, I actually think Griffith is the most human of characters, because very few of us would actually reject the offer from the G-d hand. Like most people , he was selfish in the sense that his interests superseded everyone else's. That doesn't mean he was a sadist. Most people care, to some extent or another, about others around them, but it is a very very rare person that can put the interests of another above his/her own. In Griffith's case, that would mean rejecting the G-d hand's offer, and living out the rest of his life as a cripple. That wasn't something he could do.

As I understand it, the whole deal with the G-d hand is you "sacrificie what you most care about, for what you most desire" or something along those lines. So I don't think one has to "Love" something in order to care about it. The hawks where important to griffith, he valued them, but in the end he loved only himself and his dream. .. all hail the coming of Femto :p.

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Online Walter

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Re: Griffith and Love???
« Reply #73 on: December 14, 2007, 04:14:30 AM »
Very eloquently put. If you ever need a blurb for street cred, here's one from me, Wally B: "One of the most reasonable and inviting posts in months!"
:femto: :slan: :ubik:

Offline Skorne

Re: Griffith and Love???
« Reply #74 on: December 20, 2007, 07:57:18 AM »
Gotta say that melorik's post is one that cannot be matched very easily, so frankly i'm just going to give this a shot... 

But here is my two cents on this whole Casca/Guts/Griffith love thing. 

Griffith being the intelligent individual he is was well aware of casca's feelings from the get go.  He knew that she was in complete awe of him and that no individual could take the place in her heart.  *which we are all aware of due to her unwavering devotion and loyalty to him* And even when we as individuals have someone around that simply adores us to no end we get caught up and forget their value as a person.  (Griffith either ignored and was oblivious to this in my opinion)  What i think needs to be noted is that he holds himself in such regard that he feel that no one is capable of just brushing him off, that they are incapable of doing so.  So when  Griffith became aware that he had been replaced, even mildly he couldn't handle it.  To have lost that small amount of 'ground' he viewed it as a loss.  And again in my opinion, the scene in the carraige just before the eclipse,  where Griffith proceeds to mount Casca, he did so without the feelings of affection.  But feelings of pursuing dominence.  A domince that he once had obtained with no effort on his part.  IE it was an attempt to be a man by asserting his dominance of his subordinate.  She eventually pushed him aside which would have never happened before.  And need i remind anyone that the quickest way to defeat someone is to defeat them from the inside, by crushing their ego.  Griffith's entire world is based on dominating everything and everyone around him.

Now, Guts and Griffith.
Sorry Fan-girls, there is no sexual connotations between the two, even though Guts did assume so. (that is if my memory serves me correct maybe the 4-6th volume, something like that upon meeting and asking to acquire guts)  The charisma that Griffith has is by all standards, Unnerving.  The charisma that Guts owns is one based on pure intensity to his objectives.  A trait Griffith openly admired stating so in their initial duel.  Deep down that intensity that Guts has without trying is what Griffith strived so hard for.  Which is what makes Guts so crucial, the fact that Guts served as guiding light for Griffith's own unwavering desire to achieve his dreams.  Which is why Griffith desired him so, so in that stance Guts was his equal. 

Another thing i would like to note the obvious YIN and YANG relationship the two have.  Guts is a unrelenting berserker slaying all in his path, he puts his life before others, Straightforwards, volatile, among more of the other more obvious traits he has.  While Griffith is Shrewd, cunning, ruthless, And quiet, all the while holding a piece of each other within each other.

Another note i think i'd like ask/make.  Griffith is the Hawk of Light, and Griffith is wearing the berserker armor AKA the Millenium Falcon armor.  Correct me if i am wrong, which i may be due to the translation issues i have read and come across.  And it should be noted that Hawk and Falcon feeding grounds are often the same areas and are natural born enemies.  So i don't think this is a concidence.  All this to say again.   In my opinion, they are the same person on different paths and i think griffith is very aware of this which is again why he values Guts so much.

yeah, i think i am done with this for now.  I think i might have strayed from my point but i don't think so.  cheers.