Guts: eventually helpless?

To preface: I believe Miura once stated that Guts was going to experience similar feelings that Griffith did at the Eclipse. Can some one confirm this?

With this in mind, I believe Guts will reach a point of such physical degeneration from the use of the Armor of the Berserk that he will be helpless in a fight, as opposed to his usual habit of being the main man. Guts will experience the idea that he is letting everyone down, and being a burden upon them. I believe that a major factor in Griffith's decision were similar feelings.

Griffith had always been the leader and inspiration for the Hawks, and when he was crippled he felt like he was dissappointing everyone. These feelings became especially prevalent after he overheard Guts and Caska. Griffith felt he had to accept Idea's offer if he could ever face any member of the Hawks again, which is why I think he was smiling as the hand closed over him.

So, I wonder what Guts will do when the same situation arises in his group. It would seem inevitable that he would embrace the Beast to rise and fight again, much like what has been speculatted to have happened with Skull Knight. But there are circumstances involve that cloud the future. The x-factors involved are Guts's love for Caska, his experience on the other side of the coin, their destination to meet the Elf king, and the child. These factors could be what causes the spiral instead of the circle.

hmm thats really intersting and makes a much sense. That would explain possibly what Flora said to Guts about Caska and the behelit and such. Now maybe i'm just remembering this wrong, but when Guts asked Flora about the behelit didnt she tell him to get rid of it, and then Caska and Farneze walked in, and she said something about maybe caska would be able to save him from the darkness or something to that effect. Twould make sense...but then again that could apply to many things.

I dont know though, the future will be very intersting.

Griffith had always been the leader and inspiration for the Hawks, and when he was crippled he felt like he was dissappointing everyone. These feelings became especially prevalent after he overheard Guts and Caska. Griffith felt he had to accept Idea's offer if he could ever face any member of the Hawks again, which is why I think he was smiling as the hand closed over him.

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I agree. I think it has to do with Griffith going through different phases that deal with his inner "climate", for lack of a better term. As a child he is pretty much care free and innocent, morally sound we assume, but once he encounters the behelit and as seen in the sequence during the festival when he sees the mountain of corpses leading up to the shining castle he begins to trangress towards amorality. He doesn't really show any kind of deeper emotions, he has that look about him that only wants to control other things, he's never really aware of the idea of right or wrong, just that which will achieve his dream. This goes along until the point where Guts defeats him and he loses his grasp momentarily on his pursuit of the dream, and I think from that point on it leads him ultimately to the path of evil, which seeing Guts and Caska happy together, and his choice as we all know is to sacrifice them all for his own "godhood". Femto basically comes across as evil, mocking Gut's pain when he encounters him after killing the count. And when he's finally reborn we see the amoral Griffith once again trying to confront Guts, with arrogance only an amoral person could have.

My 2 cents.

That's a very interesting theory you have there Woland. I can definitely see the points you bring up. Adding to that, I see Griffith's fall to physical destruction as something sudden and forced which is a big contrast to the physical pain Guts endures which is over years and necessary because of the countless fights he has.

Since Griffith practically had his humanity taken away from him in an instant, it's sort of understandable how he made his decision to accept the Godhand's offer. He wasn't accostomed to being taken care of and led around like a helpless child. He was always the charasmatic leader and never knew how to live a life outside of that.

On the other hand, Guts has been enduring physical and emotional pain over time and is slowly realizing how his physical body is deteriorating, especially with his new armor. The big difference is that Guts has time to adjust to these new changes and face the fact that he's losing his physical senses.

I think because Guts is able to adjust and have time to cope with the physical deterioration of his body, he may be prepared for when the Beast tries to completely consume him or do something to prevent Caska's death by the Beast or any of his new comrades. We'll see how it turns out. :)

Woland said:

It would seem inevitable that he would embrace the Beast to rise and fight again, much like what has been speculatted to have happened with Skull Knight.

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We don't know about Skullknight and beast, what we know is that most propably he died in that armor, but actually we don't know how it worked for him...

KazigluBey said:

As a child he is pretty much care free and innocent, morally sound we assume, but once he encounters the behelit...

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I don't get where you have seen in the manga this noteable (according to you) difference...

Miyu said:

Adding to that, I see Griffith's fall to physical destruction as something sudden and forced which is a big contrast to the physical pain Guts endures which is over years and necessary because of the countless fights he has.

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Griffith was being tortured and massacrated for a year...

Miyu said:

Guts has been enduring physical and emotional pain over time...

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I think Guts likes it. This is what makes him feel alive.
On the other hand, Griffith had a scope, a dream, a desire that was determined to conquer...His condition drove him out of his road...after seeing that his leading position in the hawks was changing (this is actually what happened to him when he overheard Caska and Guts), he desperated so much that he went on to suicide.

Miyu said:

I think because Guts is able to adjust and have time to cope with the physical deterioration of his body, he may be prepared for when the Beast tries to completely consume him or do something to prevent Caska's death by the Beast or any of his new comrades. We'll see how it turns out. :)

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Again I don't see how you could parallel the desperation of losing your scope and activating a behelit with Guts and HIS beast. The beast is part of Guts and the hell that menaces him is the flame that the od of the armour opens to burn him out of his personality. I believe this has been clear so far...nothing to do with Godhand...we are talking about Guts own character and personality, not just a desperate fall on his own eyes...
In fact, Guts' condition is very more dangerous that the one you paralel him, if you see what I mean. Indeed hehe, "Yoda" Guts is more dangerous and potentially destructive than a behelit made apostle...

xechnao said:

Griffith was being tortured and massacrated for a year...

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True, but Griffith didn't have any control over what happened. He had no power over the pain that was being dealt to him or way to escape it. Guts had more of a choice since he could fight or run away if he ever felt like it. At least Guts could kill whatever being was hurting him letting his physical pain span a few years with time to heal in between. Griffith didn't have that option and instead was tortured non-stop.

I think Guts likes it. This is what makes him feel alive.
On the other hand, Griffith had a scope, a dream, a desire that was determined to conquer...His condition drove him out of his road...after seeing that his leading position in the hawks was changing (this is actually what happened to him when he overheard Caska and Guts), he desperated so much that he went on to suicide.

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That is true. Hate and anger have become his fuel for fighting. But it still doesn't change the fact that Guts had time to adjust to what was being thrown at him and what he had to fight everyday. As you say, Griffith had a dream, but it was all taken away from him and his reputation was destroyed in an instant. Guts also lost all his friends in one fell sweep, but he kept on fighting in the end and held onto his anger and revenge to keep him going. Before Griffith became a Godhand, he really had nothing and couldn't fight anymore because everything was taken from him.

Again I don't see how you could parallel the desperation of losing your scope and activating a behelit with Guts and HIS beast. The beast is part of Guts and the hell that menaces him is the flame that the od of the armour opens to burn him out of his personality. I believe this has been clear so far...nothing to do with Godhand...we are talking about Guts own character and personality, not just a desperate fall on his own eyes...
In fact, Guts' condition is very more dangerous that the one you paralel him, if you see what I mean. Indeed hehe, "Yoda" Guts is more dangerous and potentially destructive than a behelit made apostle...

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I actually don't think that Guts is going to activate a beherit and follow the exact same path as Griffith. I was arguing whether Guts Beast could take over Guts as Griffith gave into the Godhand's will to become Femto. Not really an exact parallel. But I do see your point about Guts's Beast being extremely dangerous. Just saw Chapter 242 and I think that pretty much makes most of what I said earlier seem outdated.

Miyu said:

True, but Griffith didn't have any control over what happened. He had no power over the pain that was being dealt to him or way to escape it. Guts had more of a choice since he could fight or run away if he ever felt like it. At least Guts could kill whatever being was hurting him letting his physical pain span a few years with time to heal in between. Griffith didn't have that option and instead was tortured non-stop.

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aww, nope. That would kill Gats. Emotionaly, he would lose all that he has been fighting for. Physicaly he can never rest, his demons attack him all night long. Right now he hasn't been fully healed for a long time, and I don't think time is on his side either.

xechnao said:

I think Guts likes it. This is what makes him feel alive.

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I argree that fighting makes him feel alive but I don't think he is a masocist or anything.

I agree that at some time his physical degration will have to be delt with. He has failed only twice I think, before the esclipse with the raiders and in the Eclipse. In vol. 2 he goes on about how he will defeat the apstole himself, with no help.

initialdproject said:

aww, nope. That would kill Gats. Emotionaly, he would lose all that he has been fighting for. Physicaly he can never rest, his demons attack him all night long. Right now he hasn't been fully healed for a long time, and I don't think time is on his side either.

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Up until now, he's had Puck to help heal his physical wounds. Yes, emotionally he really hasn't healed, but at least there is some relief for his physical pain. I will agree that all the fighting is going to eventually take it's toll, but he's not completely helpless to help relieve some of the physical pain, unlike Griffith was while he was being constantly tortured.

I argree that fighting makes him feel alive but I don't think he is a masocist or anything.

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No, he's just sadistic. He's the only one I know who could chew on baby intestines in the heat of battle. ;)

i'm curious as well what will happen with the berserker armor. seems as if slann really, really wants gatsu to become an apostle because she has a thing for him. perhaps she's in love with him.

i think guts will only be really helpless when hes dead,

just my opinion

- c 8)