Is Guts a idiot?

I don't think a thread has been done about this before, but if it has then my bad.

It has probably gone through most Berserk fans heads at one stage or another, is he a idiot or not. Now through the series alot of characters have referred to him as one like Godo, Caska and Corkus (who aren't of them probably are exactly geniuses themselves). I don't believe there is one single absolute of intelligence as everyone has strengths and weaknesses in the field one way or another, and if you pay enough attention to someone you can get a approx idea of where they stand as a whole.
He isn't the most educated guy as he never went to school or anything, he has admitted himself that he known nothing but the sword, but despite that I don't think he is a idiot despite not being the smartest character in the story.
Several reasons for this are;

- Griffith was friends with him, he only said a friend to him was someone who equals him has to follow there own dream, not let anyone stand in the way of it blah blah... but I think it was needless to say he didn't want a idiot for a friend either. No doubt Griffiths mind was on a genius on many levels and not many geniuses would want a reg for a friend.

- As said already he wasn't educated in academics at all, he was however educated in everyway possible for the battlefield throughout his short life, in combat or military strategy and this is shown many times throughout the epic, afterall he could not win against so many Apostles with power alone, they are Apostles afterall.
-Some examples of this are when he is 15 and on his first job from Griffith they are all ready for a stealth attack going through the river from behind and Guts is able to analyse all of Griffiths tactics, motives and such just by following him. Another example on this is when he fights Roshinu he wasn't in the condition to beat her unless he turned around the battlefield by using tactics and put Roshinu at a disadvantage.
-His ability to survive with a sword is more than brute force and will power as well, when he has the sword it is shown throughout the series and proven very early on that he is a genius with a sword.
-When he is giving tips to Isidoro I think he speaks like has alot of wisdom about the battlefield as well which is obviously no surprise.
-During the second eclipse they are all trying to escape Farneze is about to pray and he rationally tells her to use the power in her hand rather than rely on something to help her, you don't exactly need to be a rocket scientist to come to that conclusion but it shows he is a rational side even in times of despair, and a probable factor in how he has survived as long as he has.

- As far as being streetwise (which I would consider him essentially) he has learned alot about the world he lives in to survive and understand what he goes on with his journey in the interstice and beyond which probably wasn't a easy thing. Between he survived the Eclipse he learned a bit from the Godhands speech, then a bit from Skull knight about the brand but between then and til when he meets Flora he had to figure out basically everything else on his own which would have probably been a pain in the arse in certain situations where understanding what he was getting into was a matter of life and death.

-As a side ability he can figure people out people well at times, not in the same way as Griffith but when he speaks to them at times he can find there weakness and really exploit it. Talking to Jill was one example when he states why she tagged along because of her loser father and such, though a better example was when he is tied up and getting lashed and has no physical power (which he relies on more than anything throughout the series of course) and still managed to over power Farneze on a mental level whenever he opened his mouth and even when he didn't. That chapter when she is attempting to interrogate him is one of my favourites for that reason.

Anyway though he has made alot of dumb decisions in the epic he has managed to cope well enough to stay alive which is saying alot for a man in his position. If anyone has any points or counterpoints to mine then i'm curious to know.
 

DarkBlademaster

Jesus cries when he looks at me.
Wow, has the board gotten this boring? And to answer your question, NO. Just think of the situations he was in.
 
Didn't read all of this post...got to the middle
I will finish it later

Guts isn't an idiot the way you put it...why would he be?
He is a practical and tough guy, grown up in a mercenary camp...
He hasn't wasted any chances or fortune he had in life...except perhaps two
When he decided to leave the hawks after peace came and when he left Caska behind, gowing on his two-year
But I could find an excuse to both of these...
About the first one I see two things:feelings about Casca confusing him and the fight with Zodd and what he said him (perhaps even the scene with Bascon has something to do on this), urging him to further practice his combat skills: Judo said about being the best...Griffith and the city was no more better (or equal) than Guts but apparently there was more room to grasp so he left the city
About the second, I give Guts the excuse of the horror he experienced at the eclipse...there would have to be some bad residues on his mind equilibrity at that moment...
 
DemonX said:
Wow, has the board gotten this boring?

Why not? It was interesting enough for speculating on DBZ porn and wondering if the god of the rotting roots is going to make a dramatic comeback.

And to answer your question, NO. Just think of the situations he was in.

That was deep man, my mind will rest easy of questions tonight.

xechnao said:
Didn't read all of this post...got to the middle
I will finish it later

Guts isn't an idiot the way you put it...why would he be?
He is a practical and tough guy, grown up in a mercenary camp...
He hasn't wasted any chances or fortune he had in life...except perhaps two
When he decided to leave the hawks after peace came and when he left Caska behind, gowing on his two-year
But I could find an excuse to both of these...
About the first one I see two things:feelings about Casca confusing him and the fight with Zodd and what he said him (perhaps even the scene with Bascon has something to do on this), urging him to further practice his combat skills: Judo said about being the best...Griffith and the city was no more better (or equal) than Guts but apparently there was more room to grasp so he left the city
About the second, I give Guts the excuse of the horror he experienced at the eclipse...there would have to be some bad residues on his mind equilibrity at that moment...

I can understand why he did leave the hawks, it was pretty much out of pride that he made that choice, then aside getting stronger he comes back after not finding what he wanted, realises his place was probably within the hawks all along and comes to the conclusion just in time to take in a new bitter meaning to life to seek revenge on what he had once left.

Once again I can understand why he did, but lets face it, that chain of events was far from the smartest things to do in a lifetime.
 
Sparnage said:
but lets face it, that chain of events was far from the smartest things to do in a lifetime.
Yeah but this lifetime has demons and apostles in it eating humans' heads and no one to stop this cause the holly order which is the "law" on this essentially just helps it...
Much like Bush's war on terrorism...
!*ducks while running away from this thread for now*
 

DarkBlademaster

Jesus cries when he looks at me.
Sparnage said:
Why not? It was interesting enough for speculating on DBZ porn and wondering if the god of the rotting roots is going to make a dramatic comeback.
Well the DBZ thing was made out of joke (yes, also prooving how slow it has become lately.)And I was unsure what the hell the god of the rotting roots even was.
That was deep man, my mind will rest easy of questions tonight.

Well just think of it. He is not an idiot, he is just more physical then mental. His whole life is war and sadness, and i think he has enough commen logic about the real world to be above the idiot classification.

Much like Bush's war on terrorism...

Basterd... you just had to say it.
 
DemonX said:
Well just think of it. He is not an idiot, he is just more physical then mental. His whole life is war and sadness, and i think he has enough commen logic about the real world to be above the idiot classification.

Did you read my first post or just the title? The name "Is Guts a idiot?" was stated as a rhetorical question rather then a real one, I pointed out that I didn't think so either and had a heap of evidence so support that theory, rather that he has just made some stupid decisions in his time.
 

DarkBlademaster

Jesus cries when he looks at me.
Sparnage said:
Did you read my first post or just the title? The name "Is Guts a idiot?" was stated as a rhetorical question rather then a real one, I pointed out that I didn't think so either and had a heap of evidence so support that theory, rather that he has just made some stupid decisions in his time.

Nope, just the first paragraph. The rest was too much for me :p.
 

Lliugusamui

around the corner
Well, talking about boredom...
Actually, I find Guts being rather slow since vol22 (dont beat me ^^). He seems to have difficulties to understand Griffith is a demon who wants his kingdom with an army called the hawks who are apostles blabla... I was under the impression he got impressed several times recently when he heard Flora/Grunbeld/Schierke/Skully speeches.

No ? ^^
Guil
 
Guil-BANNED! said:
Well, talking about boredom...
Actually, I find Guts being rather slow since vol22 (dont beat me ^^). He seems to have difficulties to understand Griffith is a demon who wants his kingdom with an army called the hawks who are apostles blabla... I was under the impression he got impressed several times recently when he heard Flora/Grunbeld/Schierke/Skully speeches.

No ? ^^
Guil

Guts just wants to be thinking more about Caska and avoid thinking about Griffith
 
Sparnage said:
Anyway though he has made alot of dumb decisions in the epic he has managed to cope well enough to stay alive which is saying alot for a man in his position. If anyone has any points or counterpoints to mine then i'm curious to know.

I dont think its fair to say his decisions were dumb though.If you put a "normal" person in the situations Guts has been in, I think his decisions would actually be pretty in sync or even smarter than most people's.
 
Guil-BANNED! said:
Well, talking about boredom...
Actually, I find Guts being rather slow since vol22 (dont beat me ^^). He seems to have difficulties to understand Griffith is a demon who wants his kingdom with an army called the hawks who are apostles blabla... I was under the impression he got impressed several times recently when he heard Flora/Grunbeld/Schierke/Skully speeches.

No ? ^^
Guil

Yeah I believe alot of that, he isn't always understanding what is going on around him perfectly. He at times struggles to understand what Skully is talking about (though that isn't always easy) but he also neglected to understand the concept of Griffith taking his chances way back in volume 8, when Judeau attempts to explain the situation about him planning to use Charlotte to take his own country, Guts wasn't exactly quick on the obvious.

Shouki Slann said:
I dont think its fair to say his decisions were dumb though.If you put a "normal" person in the situations Guts has been in, I think his decisions would actually be pretty in sync or even smarter than most people's.

I think he has made the odd smart decision here and there but needless to say he has almost always relied on his physical power as his main source of domination. I think he has made the odd "wiser than average" decision at certain times but I can't really think of any from the top of my head.
 
Of course Gatts is an idiot, remember that side story where it had Gatts going

"Oh man! I done failed me exams like."

Because Gatts was always a joker at school like that.

But seriously, in the contemporary context of an idiot, he is, but by terms of the world he inhabits, he would be seen a genius, anyone would have to be to survive battles like he does.
 

skeletonmf

Imprisoned for crimes too hideous to be named.
no matter what you want to say about gatsu, when it comes to fighting, he's pure genius. case closed.
 
I would rather say he is a genius, especially in a art of war, even much than Griff in the past he is now in term of fighting tactic


Just look at vol 11 when he fight Wild, he use a dead human body to deceive which is pretty as any1 can think, but he actually place his armor on the log and hide behind it... If he wasnt genius, Wild could have kill him
 

Lliugusamui

around the corner
Hell guys !! Being a great warrior doesn't make you a genious !! Look at all those beasts , they have incredible capacities and unbelievable instinct, just like Guts!
I don't say Guts is a beast (though well it's not very afar ^^ ), but being idiot or not doesn't only apply whether you're a god warrior or not. Bah!
Guil
 

Demented Swordsman

so I pranked him.. to death with a tire iron!
Well, there are many types of smarts. Guts has the instinct smarts down to a fine point.. and as skeleton pointed out, he's a genius when it comes to fighting. He's not too bright, but he's pretty damn resourceful, & quick witted when his life/life of loved-ones is in danger.

This makes him rely on his emotional state to survive. The very essence of a human. This is what I believe miura wanted to portray; 'Human to a fault' that fault is his emotions, be it hatred, lust, compation, etc.. its his greatest weakness, but also his greatest strength.
 

Lliugusamui

around the corner
I see what you all mean... then we should make a distinction between the 'smartness' of Guts and the one of Schierke : affective versus intellecutal... what are we talking about here ?
Guil
 

Herald of Yama

"It is pure Potential"
Part of the problem is the verbiage of the question. "Idiot" is a clinical term used to describe someone with an IQ score of 65 or less, based on a scale of 100 as "Average". That is to say, someone with just enough going on upstairs to keep from drooling on themselves constantly(or typing knee-jerk flames).

Guts doesn't really qualify for idiocy or genius: if anything, he's an above average man surviving in an extraordinary situation. I say above average because given the scope of his knowledge of warfare/survival, contrasted to his abysmal ignorance of statecraft, agriculture, noble society, arts, sciences, and commerce, he should be more or less an idiot savant. This is not the case, however, as he shows remarkably good common sense in many situations. Idiot, no, Genius, no, Fool, only sometimes...
 

Lliugusamui

around the corner
I agree. If Guts was born in another context, he may have been very cultivated, à la Griffith. Well, let's hope we can eventually say he's not really an idiot, then :)
Guil
 
Herald of Yama said:
Part of the problem is the verbiage of the question. "Idiot" is a clinical term used to describe someone with an IQ score of 65 or less, based on a scale of 100 as "Average". That is to say, someone with just enough going on upstairs to keep from drooling on themselves constantly(or typing knee-jerk flames).

I don't speak of talking about a single absolute intelligence or how well he would do in a IQ test, rather just a personal opinion after studying someone for a long period of time are seeing mental strengths and weaknesses. If you do that than you can at least get make a personal opinion on tha matter.
 

nomad

"Bring the light of day"
Guts... a stubborn warrior with no education what so ever... that's it.... end of story >:(
 

Begemot

STOP UNDRESSING ME WITH YOUR EYES!
Guts isn't an idiot. He can be damn clever at times. He also knows more than most people about what's really going on.

Guts isn't exactly logical though. He's a hothead, and follows his emotions.
 
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