Gaiseric and Godhand?

Hmm. I just took a look at the Berserk encyclopedia the other day and noticed that Gaiseric is placed at -1000, whereas Void is placed -864...

If a Godhand is born every 216 years, and Griffith is the fifth Godhand, then the first Godhand would have been born -1080, not -864 (using the year of Charlotte's story/Griffith's ascension as 0, which the timeline does not do. But it doesn't change the fact that the first Godhand must have ascended around the same time as Gaiseric's rule, not ~136 years after when he was already "dead").

That wasn't really my main point though. When Charlotte is telling the story of Gaiseric, she says that his kingdom was destroyed by 4/5 angels. I have always taken this to mean the Godhand. Is there any other way to take it, after all? I can't think of anything that a group of four or maybe five really powerful servants of God would refer to in the Berserk universe than the Godhand.
When I began to think about the timeline, though, I realized this was impossible-- If the Godhand had anything to do with Gaiseric, there sure as hell weren't 4 of them around at the time of his rule. Void alone? Yeah, maybe. But the rest simply hadn't ascended yet.

So, speculation:
In my opinion, IDEA and the Godhand go back a lot further than 1000 years in the Berserk universe. Looking at the technology level in the Berserk universe and comparing it to our own, we can gather that there's probably a good 1-1500 years of history and maybe around 5-6000 years of pre-history civilization. Since IDEA is supposed to be manifest out of humans' desire for meaning in a world full of suffering, it probably is at least as old as civilization and perhaps older. We don't know how old the institution of the Godhand is, but I am, generally, highly skeptical that it is a "recent," meaning, extant only for 1000 years, convention. Why, after all, if IDEA were floating along nebulously in the web of fate, would it finally decide that it needed to start promoting humans so that it could do its job? Did it suddenly get tired of seeding death, destruction, and despair and decide to start outsourcing so it could go on vacation?

There are some other assumptions we are working under which I don't necessarily think are correct.
Assumption #1, Every 216 years a new Godhand is born. I, for one, do not think this is necessarily the case. While the eclipse might happen every 216 years, I don't think it's necessary that an ascension to Godhand occur. What if there are no suitable human candidates, or if the candidate refuses to make a sacrifice?
Assumption #2, There is no turnover in Godhand-hood. Drawing on my belief that the institution of the Godhand is older than 1000 years, I think there have probably been members of the Godhand other than the current 4/5. I'm not entirely certain on what could cause such turnover, perhaps the will of IDEA or (unlikely) destruction by some other powerful beings-- if certain members of the Godhand plotted against another for some unfathomable reason it is possible that they might eject or destroy one of their own. Another option, which I think is most likely, is that members of the Godhand, if they choose to become manifest in the human world, are no longer considered active members of the Godhand, even if they do retain some of their extraordinary power.
For example, Femto as we knew him no longer exists, and, in my opinion, in 216 years it is possible that another could take the 5th post of the Godhand that has been left empty by Femto returning to become Griffith again. This is just out and out speculation, but Griffith will eventually attain his dream of becoming king. And what then? Griffith's dream should be (and is, though he is taking his time) child's play for him to attain. Once he is king there will be nothing left for him, and I suspect he will lose a great deal of his power.

Now, it's been a few months since I've read some of this stuff, so... doesn't the secondary eclipse-- the one Griffith used to return into human form-- happen approximately every 1000 years?
If that's the case, then I think it may have been the case that Gaiseric/Skull Knight was once a member of the Godhand. Like Griffith, his dream was foiled and in a time of desperation his behelit was activated. He became a Godhand, but subsequently manifested himself back into the real world to establish his dream and create his empire. Once his dream was satisfied, though, the other four Godhand swooped down and destroyed it all, as he had fulfilled his goal in returning to earth, but the persistence of his empire was something they had no desire in, as it would mean a long period of relative peace and prosperity in the world. Gaiseric was obviously ticked at this, and though he is not as powerful as he once was, he still retains some of his power (hence immortality, etc). Now his purpose is to exact revenge on Void (who may be the only member of the Godhand who is still around from then, or he may be the mastermind of some sort of treachery against Skull Knight that caused him to be ejected from the Godhand).

Feel free to punch holes in my theory.
 

DarkBlademaster

Jesus cries when he looks at me.
Assumption #1, Every 216 years a new Godhand is born. I, for one, do not think this is necessarily the case. While the eclipse might happen every 216 years, I don't think it's necessary that an ascension to Godhand occur. What if there are no suitable human candidates, or if the candidate refuses to make a sacrifice?

There will always be a suitable human candidate, because the idea makes it so. The idea combines/creates bloodlines until the desired human is born (as was told to griffith). The candidate would not refuse to make a sacrifice, because if the candidate could, the godshand would not be able to be summoned in the first place. Even though griffith looked as if he did have his choice in the matter during the eclipes, he really didn't because that was his true nature, and only those with that type of person deep inside themselves would be allowed to summon the godhand.


Assumption #2, There is no turnover in Godhand-hood. Drawing on my belief that the institution of the Godhand is older than 1000 years, I think there have probably been members of the Godhand other than the current 4/5. I'm not entirely certain on what could cause such turnover, perhaps the will of IDEA or (unlikely) destruction by some other powerful beings-- if certain members of the Godhand plotted against another for some unfathomable reason it is possible that they might eject or destroy one of their own. Another option, which I think is most likely, is that members of the Godhand, if they choose to become manifest in the human world, are no longer considered active members of the Godhand, even if they do retain some of their extraordinary power.

Its hard to imagine the godhand plotting against each other, even though how evil and sinister they are, I think they are above turning against each other. However, maybe someone else came along (Skull knight) and killed some of them?


For example, Femto as we knew him no longer exists, and, in my opinion, in 216 years it is possible that another could take the 5th post of the Godhand that has been left empty by Femto returning to become Griffith again. This is just out and out speculation, but Griffith will eventually attain his dream of becoming king. And what then? Griffith's dream should be (and is, though he is taking his time) child's play for him to attain. Once he is king there will be nothing left for him, and I suspect he will lose a great deal of his power.

Well... Femto IS Griffith, so he still exists. I always saw that griffith, like other apostles, could change into Femto when needed. Hes just... a stronger (ALOT STRONGER) apostle. (As I see it)

That is pritty interesting though, I have always suspected there were previous godhand members.
 

Walter

Administrator
Staff member
Denial said:
Hmm. I just took a look at the Berserk encyclopedia the other day and noticed that Gaiseric is placed at -1000, whereas Void is placed -864...

If a Godhand is born every 216 years, and Griffith is the fifth Godhand, then the first Godhand would have been born -1080, not -864 (using the year of Charlotte's story/Griffith's ascension as 0, which the timeline does not do. But it doesn't change the fact that the first Godhand must have ascended around the same time as Gaiseric's rule, not ~136 years after when he was already "dead").
Gaiseric must have been "something special" in relation to the God Hand. What, specifically, we don't yet know. I say this because the only math that really makes sense is this:

-1080 Gaiseric
-864 Void
-648 conrad
-432 ubik
-216 slan
-0 Femto

Please show me your "corrected" version of the above.

That wasn't really my main point though. When Charlotte is telling the story of Gaiseric, she says that his kingdom was destroyed by 4/5 angels. I have always taken this to mean the Godhand. Is there any other way to take it, after all? I can't think of anything that a group of four or maybe five really powerful servants of God would refer to in the Berserk universe than the Godhand.
Well, there's the 4 Kings of the World. That mysterious 5th figure could have been Gaiseric struggling against the crumbling of his empire (my extended theory: the 4 Kings were summoned by Void, who, as a "Wise Man", would likely have knowledge of summonings and consequently, the dark arts necessary to invoke or even call into being the Idea of Evil).

In my opinion, IDEA and the Godhand go back a lot further than 1000 years in the Berserk universe. Looking at the technology level in the Berserk universe and comparing it to our own, we can gather that there's probably a good 1-1500 years of history and maybe around 5-6000 years of pre-history civilization. Since IDEA is supposed to be manifest out of humans' desire for meaning in a world full of suffering, it probably is at least as old as civilization and perhaps older.
This was my original theory on the subject, and one I maintained for a few years. Nowadays... not so much.

I believe Idea and the God Hand are human-desired entities created through the use of Black Magic. As you read further into the series, you will realize the important role that the Astral world and its inhabitants have played in the history of Berserk, and that the current, corporeal world is not nearly as vital as we may think it is. Rather, it is a paper-thin layer on top of many. (see Universe diagram).

Thus far, we have only been privy to Wizards that more or less, use their powers for good. But I'm willing to bet in the 1000 year history (and previously) there were dark wizards, capable of summoning Idea. But I'm repeating myself...
There are some other assumptions we are working under which I don't necessarily think are correct.
Assumption #1, Every 216 years a new Godhand is born. I, for one, do not think this is necessarily the case. While the eclipse might happen every 216 years, I don't think it's necessary that an ascension to Godhand occur. What if there are no suitable human candidates, or if the candidate refuses to make a sacrifice?
There will be: Causality.
Assumption #2, There is no turnover in Godhand-hood. Drawing on my belief that the institution of the Godhand is older than 1000 years, I think there have probably been members of the Godhand other than the current 4/5. I'm not entirely certain on what could cause such turnover, perhaps the will of IDEA or (unlikely) destruction by some other powerful beings-- if certain members of the Godhand plotted against another for some unfathomable reason it is possible that they might eject or destroy one of their own.
If you really want to drag the idea further than necessary, I'll throw the basis of my Gaiseric fanfic at you (which I no longer support): Gaiseric was the last of the previous God Hand. He rose and took his kingdom, as humans so desired at the time. Then, inevitably, humans were tired of being oppressed by an Emperor, and desired the opposite. Following Causality, the other 4 God Hand duke it out with Reborn-Gaiseric, all perish except for Gaiseric, who is mortally wounded, and crawls into his current armor. Void, who was once a "Wise Man, imprisoned by the evil emperor," turns out to be the one who summoned the old God Hand down, sacrificing the empire for entrance.

TA-DAAAAA! (too bad it doesnt work anymore :p )

For example, Femto as we knew him no longer exists, in my opinion,
Well, you're wrong. Griffith is Femto is Griffith-Reborn. The only difference are the physical bodies (which Femto never even had...).

Feel free to punch holes in my theory.
Done.
 
-1080 Gaiseric
-864 Void
-648 conrad
-432 ubik
-216 slan
-0 Femto

Yeah, that's right. I forgot to be non-inclusive when I was thinking about the math involved. My error.

Well, there's the 4 Kings of the World. That mysterious 5th figure could have been Gaiseric struggling against the crumbling of his empire (my extended theory: the 4 Kings were summoned by Void, who, as a "Wise Man", would likely have knowledge of summonings and consequently, the dark arts necessary to invoke or even call into being the Idea of Evil).

Can you give me an approximate volume number on where these 4 kings are referenced? It's been about a year since I've read some of the older stuff and I can't remember seeing anything about them. That said, your theory is pretty good. Another potential explanation that just popped into my head is that the 4 Angels might be something related to the elemental powers of the animistic "old religion" used by witches like Flora and Schierke attempting to fight with a newly birthed Idea.

I believe Idea and the God Hand are human-desired entities created through the use of Black Magic.  As you read further into the series, you will realize the important role that the Astral world and its inhabitants have played in the history of Berserk, and that the current, corporeal world is not nearly as vital as we may think it is.  Rather, it is a paper-thin layer on top of many.  (see Universe diagram).
Thus far, we have only been privy to Wizards that more or less, use their powers for good. But I'm willing to bet in the 1000 year history (and previously) there were dark wizards, capable of summoning Idea. But I'm repeating myself...

Unless you're privy to special advance chapters/volumes, I think I've read just as much as you. Of course, there are obvious fatal flaws with regard to the the Gaiseric as Godhand theory coming from recent chapters, which might lead you to believe I haven't read that far. I could really care less whether the theory is strictly defensible, my goal is not to come to a flash of insight that reveals everything to me but to throw around interesting ideas for the purpose of exploring the universe and discover relationships between things in it. In that case even obviously wrong ideas can be fruitful.
I think you're right in suspecting we'll move in greater depth away from the strictly real and further into the planar staircase, so to speak. I do, however, find it difficult to believe that Idea would be intentionally summoned/created-- It just doesn't make sense to me to summon something to take over the entire world and your own free will, even if you do get to be his #1 lackey. Secondly, I find it difficult to believe it would even be possible for a mere man to achieve, magic user or not. Third, if we're talking "summon" that means we're presupposing giant heart-like semi-omnipotent beings floating around in the nether waiting for humans to throw them a bone. If we're talking "create"-- Too improbable to consider, unless you're turning yourself into the nigh-omnipotent being.
The main exception I can see to the problem of "Why the hell would I screw myself by summoning this thing anyway?" is if there were other similarly-godlike beings running around and one's purpose was simply to win the "arms race" by summoning the most destructive being ever. It's remote, but if we presume that the elemental/nature gods were more powerful and prominent back then, it might be. It still leaves the question of "Where did it come from?" wide open, but there might be some plausible motivation for bringing it around.

There will be: Causality.

I don't really accept the premise that Idea is really in control of everyone's free will. Events were staged such that Griffith would be strongly inclined to become a Godhand, but I think that it was not a certainty. Do you think if he had to make the choice when he was still a successful commander rising through the ranks and getting some from the princess that he would have accepted? I don't. There was a need to strip everything away from him to make him willing to accept the transformation. It wouldn't need to mess around with all the drama if it could really just force people to become mindless automatons acting out its script. Idea's own rhetoric about how powerful it is aside, I see whatever plan it is attempting to carry out as very precarious, hence the recruitment of humans into Apostles being told to "do as you will." Their actions are more directly under Idea's control and give muscle to things that Idea wants or needs to bring about but cannot through subtle manipulations.

Well, you're wrong. Griffith is Femto is Griffith-Reborn. The only difference are the physical bodies (which Femto never even had...).

You don't really have anything more to back it up than I do. In all probability that's the case, but there's nothing to be certain about since there's nothing to work with, just the presumption of the persistence of the old status quo.
 
Denial said:
You don't really have anything more to back it up than I do. In all probability that's the case, but there's nothing to be certain about since there's nothing to work with, just the presumption of the persistence of the old status quo.

No, they are all undoubtably the same and the only difference is that Griffith lost his "humanity" I suppose you could call It. If Griffith were to change into a completely different entity then what would be the point of apointing a mortal to become a Godhand in the first place?

In all cases it is no different to when a human becomes an Apostle, the Count for example was still the being he was that was a cold but fair ruler who Loved his family and did what he thought was right for his people but when he changed it doesn't mean he is someone different, the only difference is that he became morbid, sick and evil with a great power, but still loves his daughter as much as ever. Mind altering, yes very much but a completely new person, no.

In any case Griffith is closer to human now that he is reborn since the second Eclipse in comparison to when he was Femto, he without hesitation raped Caska and watched Guts suffer because of it and when Guts finally finds Femto during the time the Count calls them he seems like just as much as a bastard.
When he meets Guts for the first time in a new body however, he still wanted to meet to see if he could sway his heart, saves Caska and stops Zodd from killing him after he displayed so much hatred towards Griffith from just looking at him. Still with that he admits to bearly feel anything during such a intense fight between the two. A bit different but fairly close to Griffith's old personality all the same.
 
No, they are all undoubtably the same and the only difference is that Griffith lost his "humanity" I suppose you could call It. If Griffith were to change into a completely different entity then what would be the point of apointing a mortal to become a Godhand in the first place?

I think you are misunderstanding me. If an eclipse can create a Godhand from a mortal and remake the world, it's certainly within the scope of possibility that an eclipse could cause the "demotion" of a Godhand. (Which isn't what I said, but regardless.) Issues of godhood-incarnation have been dealt with pretty thoroughly by Christian theologians, so if you have trouble imagining some of the alternatives to your current perspective, feel free to read up and consider the alternatives.
 
Denial said:
I think you are misunderstanding me. If an eclipse can create a Godhand from a mortal and remake the world, it's certainly within the scope of possibility that an eclipse could cause the "demotion" of a Godhand. (Which isn't what I said, but regardless.) Issues of godhood-incarnation have been dealt with pretty thoroughly by Christian theologians, so if you have trouble imagining some of the alternatives to your current perspective, feel free to read up and consider the alternatives.

Would you call Griffiths new form a demotion?
 
Not really, but I'm willing to be open to the possibility.
It's helpful also to be clear about what exactly we're talking about, in terms of "Power" I suspect it could even be a promotion. Back in Vol 3 or whatever, Guts shot at Femto with the cannon and he deflected it. Would he even need to deflect it now?
Note, I don't really consider it a meaningful change that Femto blocked where Neo-Griffith just avoids altogether, but one could interpret it to be.

In terms of "Celestial Rank," for lack of better terminology, I think assuming a human body once more is quite possibly a demotion. We don't really know if the Godhand's role is to watch over various abstract features of existence (Slann - Lust, etc. See the other thread on this.) or what they do at all when they're not showing up to answer the cry of the Behelits or torment Guts.
As Femto I think Griffith was entirely free of emotion and that now he is, in some small amount, subjected to them. Is it demeaning for a supernatural being of Femto's ability to assume a mortal body and pursue a mortal's dream?
Isn't it Rakshas who has mentioned killing Griffith? Would he be similarly inclined if Griffith were Femto? Has he lost respect for Femto/Griffith?

What about Ganishka? We know at the very least he thinks he is entitled to the territory he has conquered, but does his motivation end there? Could not any member of the Godhand call him for an audience or drop down for a chat and tell him to give up the land or be destroyed? Is there even any question about who would win there? And since there is not, at least in my mind, why is Ganishka unwilling to recognize Griffith's right, as "prince" of Apostles, to his territory?
You could argue that he's simply gone power mad and doesn't know what he's up against, but he seems to be pretty well prepared to fight against the power of Neo-Griffith and the Neo-Hawks. He at least has enough sense about him to know the kind of threat he's pitting himself up against. So why would he do it?
 

Miyu

I'm smiling on the inside.
One of the things that Idea tells Griffith as he is being transformed into Femto is "Do as you will." Griffith was never able to achieve his ultimate dream of reaching the castle, so it wouldn't be improbably for him to still desire that dream. Also, there have been instances where the other Godhand have taken a physical form (albeit through the bodies of rats and troll intestines) in the physical world of humans. Griffith just chose to have a host that will give him more presence and leverage in being able to achieve his dream. He could easily do it as Femto, but there's not challenge in that and it wouldn't give him as much satisfaction.

Regarding why other apostles seem to want to kill him, let me reference Wyld. He was an apostle who went about his usual apostle-like thing. When he encountered Griffith just before the eclipse, he wanted to kill him, even though he knew that he was going to become the next Godhand. Because he disobeyed the will of Idea and the Godhand, Zodd killed him. I don't think becoming an apostle necessarliy entails full allegiance to Idea and the Godhand. If Idea tells all the men and women who become apostles, "Do as you will," then they're going to do what they want even if it means wanting to kill Griffith.

Also, Ganiska has the same dream of owning and having a kingdom. He's already worked hard to finally get one and having another person, even if it's Griffith, come along to try and take it away from him doesn't bode well with poor Ganiska. If two people have the same dreams and desires, they're going to fight for it and that probably isn't any different with the Godhand and apostles. Yurius was a subject of the King of Midland, yet he tried to plot his downfall so he could take over the crown. Now Ganiska wants to destroy Griffith because he threatens to take the kingdom he worked hard to win.

To me, Griffith is using his new human body as a means to finish what he wasn't able to fulfill before he became a Godhand. We don't really know much about the pasts of the other Godhand and whether something similiar has been done before. Griffith's return as a human hasn't been established as permanent. It's possible if that if he finishs what he sought to do and take over his kingdom, another ritual will occur and he'll become Femto again after satisfying his dream. But that's all speculation mind you.
 
He could easily do it as Femto, but there's not challenge in that and it wouldn't give him as much satisfaction.

I dunno. Why would it be any more or less challenging as Femto or Neo-Griffith, if they are one and the same? And I don't really see self-hindrance as a valid motivation to reincarnate yourself, it smacks too much of plot contrivance for my liking.


Regarding why other apostles seem to want to kill him, let me reference Wyld.  He was an apostle who went about his usual apostle-like thing.  When he encountered Griffith just before the eclipse, he wanted to kill him, even though he knew that he was going to become the next Godhand.  Because he disobeyed the will of Idea and the Godhand, Zodd killed him.  I don't think becoming an apostle necessarliy entails full allegiance to Idea and the Godhand.  If Idea tells all the men and women who become apostles, "Do as you will," then they're going to do what they want even if it means wanting to kill Griffith.

Well, in the case of Wyld, he was going to kill Griffith. On the other hand, I'm not entirely convinced that he "knew" Griffith was going to be the next Godhand. He had heard it from someone [Zodd, presumably], and was going to Griffith with the hope that Griffith could summon the Godhand to save Wyld. Only when he saw Griffith did not have the Behelit did he become incredulous that such a frail being could become a Godhand and threaten to kill Griffith.

Guts has been carrying around a Behelit for a long time now, is that Behelit "meant" for him? Point being, even if Zodd saw Griffith with the Behelit, there's no way to know it was "meant" for him until he uses the thing. (Which is ironic, of course, since for all the talk of it being destined, the only way the destiny can be known for certain, outside of metaknowledge about the trajectory of the story, is in retrospect.) If we didn't know from the first few volumes that Griffith was Femto, wouldn't it be reasonable to assume Griffith was just another in a string of carriers until it got to its destined owner?-- Guts perhaps? Who has Fate more on their side, after all, the puny human who just kicked your Apostle ass, or the ragdoll who can barely even move?

The more important question part of this incident is not Wyld acting against Griffith on incomplete information but why Zodd seems to have perfect knowledge of what's going to happen. He knew instantly that Griffith was the next Godhand upon seeing the Behelit, he was right there to throw the sword to Guts when Guts' sword broke (if Guts had not killed the enemy commander, the rout would not have happened), and he knew that Wyld was going to attempt to kill Griffith. Hmm.
Zodd is a powerful apostle and a good fighter. He's wise enough since he's been around for so long, but he's not a thinker from what I can see. He shouldn't really know the things he seems to know. He appears to have a strong code of honor, even he is a brutal fighter, and great respect for friend and foe, but especially his superiors. Is he favored because of this? Do members of the Godhand tell him their plans (which, in turn, is Idea's plan) and does he act to fulfill the Godhand's will out of a sense of duty? In any case, I think Apostles in general are more likely to be acting out Idea's plan, intentionally or not, than your average Joe.

Also, Ganiska has the same dream of owning and having a kingdom.  He's already worked hard to finally get one and having another person, even if it's Griffith, come along to try and take it away from him doesn't bode well with poor Ganiska.  If two people have the same dreams and desires, they're going to fight for it and that probably isn't any different with the Godhand and apostles.  Yurius was a subject of the King of Midland, yet he tried to plot his downfall so he could take over the crown.  Now Ganiska wants to destroy Griffith because he threatens to take the kingdom he worked hard to win.

I acknowledge that it is simply natural to fight to keep something you have fought to attain. Unlike Wyld, I think there is no question to Ganishka as to whether this incarnation of Griffith is a Godhand. Ganishka knows full well what Griffith is, and if he knows that, he should know there is no way he is going to prevail. Whether he knows about Idea or not (I doubt anyone other than the Godhand themselves do), he knows well enough that whether he fights or whether he doesn't fight, he is playing into the hand of the Godhand, no pun intended. Since that is the case, it makes a hell of a lot more sense to just give up and wait until he's had his fun then pick up where you left off in a hundred or so years or however long it takes.
The exception to this is if Griffith is no longer pulling the strings from behind the scenes as the Godhand seem to do. That by becoming an active participant in the events he is no longer necessarily able to influence things to the extent that he was able to before. As far as Fatal Systems go this is not uncommon, actually: It's harder for the thread in a web to influence the web than it is for a spider to influence the web. And that in turn can summon up all kinds of issues dealing with the Oracular Paradox, but lets not get into it— Fate in Berserk seems to be developed more along the practical than the theoretical and philosophical, so there's no need to get that involved.

To me, Griffith is using his new human body as a means to finish what he wasn't able to fulfill before he became a Godhand.  We don't really know much about the pasts of the other Godhand and whether something similiar has been done before.  Griffith's return as a human hasn't been established as permanent.  It's possible if that if he finishs what he sought to do and take over his kingdom, another ritual will occur and he'll become Femto again after satisfying his dream.  But that's all speculation mind you.

First point, clearly he is. We don't really know clearly what happened 1000 years ago, but it was something similar and yet different. I think if we assume the Godhand have all ascended within the last thousand years and that they can only reincarnate for extended times using a millenial eclipse, that it hasn't. I think you are right to point out that Griffith's return to the "real world" may not be permanent. As far as whether it takes another ritual for Griffith to become Femto again... If I thought he were going to I'd put my money on it. But I don't think he's going to.
 

Miyu

I'm smiling on the inside.
Denial said:
I dunno. Why would it be any more or less challenging as Femto or Neo-Griffith, if they are one and the same? And I don't really see self-hindrance as a valid motivation to reincarnate yourself, it smacks too much of plot contrivance for my liking.

They are one in the same, but your average Midlander only remembers Griffith. None of them know of Femto and before Griffith was put in prison for getting too friendly with the Princess, he was imensely popular. It's true, it would have been easy to take over Midland as Femto, but if he were to do that, then he would be like Gansika: a tyrant. Returning as the hero Midlanders remembered will make it so if he were to recapture Midland and take it for himself, the people would be eating out of his hand. In the long run, he would get more gratification, but that's how I see it.


Well, in the case of Wyld, he was going to kill Griffith. On the other hand, I'm not entirely convinced that he "knew" Griffith was going to be the next Godhand. He had heard it from someone [Zodd, presumably], and was going to Griffith with the hope that Griffith could summon the Godhand to save Wyld. Only when he saw Griffith did not have the Behelit did he become incredulous that such a frail being could become a Godhand and threaten to kill Griffith.

If memory serves, I actually think the King of Midland sent Wyld out to kill Griffith because he escaped from Midland. I could be wrong about that, but that's what I seem to recall. Althought he did try to kill Griffith because he thought it was ridculous that the frail tortured man was going to be the next Godhand. I really don't know whether or not Wyld had any intentions about saving Griffith given that the reason why he was set free from Midland was to go out and hunt him down.

Guts has been carrying around a Behelit for a long time now, is that Behelit "meant" for him? Point being, even if Zodd saw Griffith with the Behelit, there's no way to know it was "meant" for him until he uses the thing. (Which is ironic, of course, since for all the talk of it being destined, the only way the destiny can be known for certain, outside of metaknowledge about the trajectory of the story, is in retrospect.) If we didn't know from the first few volumes that Griffith was Femto, wouldn't it be reasonable to assume Griffith was just another in a string of carriers until it got to its destined owner?-- Guts perhaps? Who has Fate more on their side, after all, the puny human who just kicked your Apostle ass, or the ragdoll who can barely even move.

The more important question part of this incident is not Wyld acting against Griffith on incomplete information but why Zodd seems to have perfect knowledge of what's going to happen. He knew instantly that Griffith was the next Godhand upon seeing the Behelit, he was right there to throw the sword to Guts when Guts' sword broke (if Guts had not killed the enemy commander, the rout would not have happened), and he knew that Wyld was going to attempt to kill Griffith. Hmm.
Zodd is a powerful apostle and a good fighter. He's wise enough since he's been around for so long, but he's not a thinker from what I can see. He shouldn't really know the things he seems to know. He appears to have a strong code of honor, even he is a brutal fighter, and great respect for friend and foe, but especially his superiors. Is he favored because of this? Do members of the Godhand tell him their plans (which, in turn, is Idea's plan) and does he act to fulfill the Godhand's will out of a sense of duty? In any case, I think Apostles in general are more likely to be acting out Idea's plan, intentionally or not, than your average Joe.

Presumably, Zodd is the oldest apostle around, at least the oldest that we know of to date. He also has a great sense of loyalty to his leaders/generals and what have you. You're right, he's a bit above your average apostles that just goes about it's daily . . . apostle-like behaviour. That may be in part because of his seniority and also his own ideals are not to go out to pilliage and rape, but his quest is to find the Ultimate Strong One. Given that, Zodd has a mind suited for battle. Everything he does is strategic like a warplan, i.e. throwing his sword to Guts so he can slay Boscone, saving Griffith from Wyld, etc. Zodd is predictable because of that and if I were to ask any apostle to carry out the Godhand or Idea's will, it would be Zodd because he's a trustworthy warrior.

In terms of why Zodd reacted so strongly to seeing Griffith's beherit and not to Guts: Guts has a regular apostle's beherit whereas Griffith had the red one marking him as the next Godhand. Zodd's probably seen plenty of regular apostles in his time and there are plenty out there, but to see a red beherit that belongs to the next Godhand is a treat. In regard to how we can know if the beherits were really fated to be with their owners, you're right. It's something that we can't really know until we see it in retrospection. Though it is said that Griffith's beherit was given to him by and old woman who was really Ubik and Conrad in disguise, which would be an indication that Griffith was fated to have the beherit. Regarding Guts, we still don't know that answer so we'll just have to wait and see.

I acknowledge that it is simply natural to fight to keep something you have fought to attain. Unlike Wyld, I think there is no question to Ganishka as to whether this incarnation of Griffith is a Godhand. Ganishka knows full well what Griffith is, and if he knows that, he should know there is no way he is going to prevail. Whether he knows about Idea or not (I doubt anyone other than the Godhand themselves do), he knows well enough that whether he fights or whether he doesn't fight, he is playing into the hand of the Godhand, no pun intended. Since that is the case, it makes a hell of a lot more sense to just give up and wait until he's had his fun then pick up where you left off in a hundred or so years or however long it takes.

True that it would make a lot more sense for Ganiska to just roll over and let Griffith take over, but when have we seen sanity and reason be signature traits of most of the Berserk characters? For the most part, Ganiska is acting on his emotions and desires. He may know that he doesn't stand a chance against Griffith because of what he is, but he's sure doing a damn good job of fighting him off. I think Ganiska's obsessed with his power and is not going to give it up without a fight. We've already seen him build up a monster army of Daka and seen what his priests can do to possess creatures to do their will.

I had a theory at one point in time several episodes back where I thought Ganiska was there to take over Midland, kill and plunder so that all the Midlanders were in pain and suffering, then along comes Griffith, the great white hawk to fight off the evil tyrant and save Midland. In this theory I thought that Ganiska was originally going to keel over and play dead per orders from the Godhand. Whether or not that was the original plan, Ganiska seems to have enjoyed his power a bit too much and has put plans and safeguards in motion to fight against Griffith. Ganiska probably knew for a long time that Griffith would eventually try to take over his power and in anticipation of fighting something that you know you probably won't defeat, you do everything strategically possible to give yourself an edge while at the same time, throwing away his rationality. But that's my take on it.
 
Top Bottom