Author Topic: Can Griffith be redeemed?  (Read 20451 times)

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Offline Jidasfire

Re: can griffith be redeemed?
« Reply #50 on: September 28, 2004, 02:59:09 PM »
I'd have to say no. Anything good in Griffith was burned away when he became a demon. That aside, the human Griffith decided freely to give himself over to damnation at the cost of his friends' lives. Realistically, there would be no hope of coming back from that, and from a storytelling aspect, it would be unsatisfying if we see anything less than Guts ripping Femto apart piece by piece.

Offline luciferhawk

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Re: can griffith be redeemed?
« Reply #51 on: October 04, 2004, 07:05:09 AM »
keep in mind i have not read the manga, so i don't know about the the built up tension, and do not really intend to read them immediately because i don't yet know kanji. but i wonder if guts and griffith will ever be friends again. would a final chapter have the two reconcile and destroy god hand together or pit guts and griffith against each other? that's what i wonder about any of the avid readers speculate. i'd love to hear your opinions. thanks.

To be truthful I doubt Griffith and Guts well ever become friends again.

After the whole God's Hand incident, Guts' disposition has changed, after witnessing the massacre of his friends during the Great Eclipse, Guts has nothing but contempt for his beloved friend now enemy.

Offline Gaiseric The Great

Re: can griffith be redeemed?
« Reply #52 on: December 01, 2004, 01:53:01 PM »
Griffith can't be redeemed nor do I think he'd want to be redeemed (if anything I doubt he felt he did anything wrong).

Guts on the other hand would never forgive Griffith under any circumstances. The man did irrevicoable damage to Guts and his world. Safe to say they'll never be comrads again.
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Re: can griffith be redeemed?
« Reply #53 on: December 01, 2004, 07:24:45 PM »
One of my original speculations was that Guts would leap at the opportunity to be Griffiths friend again, having proven himself an equal... That, however, was before I had read any of the manga. lol

As for Griffith and redemption, I think choosing Guts'/Casca's child as a vessel may have had an unforseen effect on him. (Such as his concern for Casca on the hill of swords.) How this will affect his character on down the line, I cannot say.. Especially with the appearance of the mystery child, which opens up the possibilty that Griffith forced the essence of the child out of himself. But that's for another discussion. ;)

Short answer: Doubtful. I dislike Griffith, however, so that means I say it with bias.

Offline Kenshin Hayabusa

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Re: Can Griffith be redeemed?
« Reply #54 on: February 12, 2005, 04:54:53 PM »
ORRRR maybe guts won't be the one who will "forgive" griffith. Maybe after casca goes sane again (if she does) when guts is about to kill griffith (some how) casca gets in the way or something because she just can't see him dieing and guts will stop or slice her and griffith in half SPOILERS rurouni kenshin style END SPOILERS.

Offline Black_Scarlet

Re: Can Griffith be redeemed?
« Reply #55 on: February 12, 2005, 10:09:10 PM »
ORRRR maybe guts won't be the one who will "forgive" griffith. Maybe after casca goes sane again (if she does) when guts is about to kill griffith (some how) casca gets in the way or something because she just can't see him dieing and guts will stop or slice her and griffith in half SPOILERS rurouni kenshin style END SPOILERS.

I was actually thinking the same thing  ;D
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Offline Griffith

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Re: Can Griffith be redeemed?
« Reply #56 on: February 13, 2005, 06:24:20 AM »
Yes, he can.

Will he? Seems more interesting than Guts just killing him after 20 or 30+ volumes, doesn't it? Not to say he'll be totally fogiven or absolved of responsibilty. But from Miura's said, Guts and Griffith's relationship has a long way to go; meaning, things are going to change.


P.S. I see someone was smart enough to bring up the example of The Count. The first three volumes have served as a simple template for many elements of the rest of the series. If you consider it a microcosim or a "dumbshow" of the story as a whole, then you'd have to assume Griffith will experience some sort of "redemtion" as the Count did.

Offline Khorne

Re: Can Griffith be redeemed?
« Reply #57 on: February 15, 2005, 03:25:09 PM »
A normal apostle might be redeemed. But a member of godhand? Yeah right.
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Offline Opie

Re: Can Griffith be redeemed?
« Reply #58 on: February 15, 2005, 04:25:42 PM »
Well I read somewhere Berserk was inflenced by Star Wars...so maybe redemtion isn't totally out of the picture. "Odo" could very well be Muiras "Dark side" while Femto is Griffiths Darth Vader.
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Offline Aazealh

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Re: Can Griffith be redeemed?
« Reply #59 on: February 15, 2005, 04:30:33 PM »
Well I read somewhere Berserk was inflenced by Star Wars...

No, Miura makes some references like "Millennium Falcon", but it's not influenced by it.

so maybe redemtion isn't totally out of the picture.

Nothing is impossible for a good storyteller.

"Odo" could very well be Muiras "Dark side" while Femto is Griffiths Darth Vader.

Od in Berserk is similar to Ki (and it's the same Kanji). So if you were to compare it to Star Wars, Od would be like "the Force" itself, since Lucas used the concept of Ki to develop it.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2005, 04:36:53 PM by Aazealh »

Offline Sparnage

Re: Can Griffith be redeemed?
« Reply #60 on: February 17, 2005, 10:17:47 PM »
Yes, he can.

Will he? Seems more interesting than Guts just killing him after 20 or 30+ volumes, doesn't it? Not to say he'll be totally fogiven or absolved of responsibilty. But from Miura's said, Guts and Griffith's relationship has a long way to go; meaning, things are going to change.

Really? Have a link to that? So far the relationship between the two has changed at least 5 times that I can think of specifically. What I'm personally hoping to see between the two is towards the end Guts does something very threatening to Griffith or his power, which results in Griffith getting really pissed off and going schiz at Guts with rage and hatred instead of the other way around.
That would be an interesting turn for the relationship between the two.

Offline Griffith

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Re: Can Griffith be redeemed?
« Reply #61 on: February 18, 2005, 04:40:58 AM »
A normal apostle might be redeemed. But a member of godhand? Yeah right.

Another brilliant insight, found those text translations yet?

Really? Have a link to that? So far the relationship between the two has changed at least 5 times that I can think of specifically.

I wish I had a link, I believe it was Olivier that reported it and it was something overly dramatic like, "their relationship is only just beginning." It's times like this I wish Olivier hadn't deleted his account, at least for records purposes; most of his posts contained important or rare information. Anyway, there's more to Guts' and Griffith's relationship than meets most peoples eyes here already, so I buy it.

What I'm personally hoping to see between the two is towards the end Guts does something very threatening to Griffith or his power, which results in Griffith getting really pissed off and going schiz at Guts with rage and hatred instead of the other way around.
That would be an interesting turn for the relationship between the two.

Well, I'd like to see Griffith feel anything in an extroverted manner for Guts at this point. He already recognized Guts as a possible emotional threat, I'm still waiting to see if what happened at Flora's got his attention at all.

Offline Woland

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Re: Can Griffith be redeemed?
« Reply #62 on: February 18, 2005, 06:15:07 PM »
Well, I'd like to see Griffith feel anything in an extroverted manner for Guts at this point. He already recognized Guts as a possible emotional threat, I'm still waiting to see if what happened at Flora's got his attention at all.

I'd bet Griffith would be trying his best to ignore it, just because it involves two of the only people that he has feelings for.  Though it might be difficult, since he lost some apostles and one of his generals was heavily wounded in that encounter.

If I'm right, then he would just rationalize it as something to take care of after getting his kingdom.
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Offline Aazealh

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Re: Can Griffith be redeemed?
« Reply #63 on: February 18, 2005, 08:05:37 PM »
one of his generals was heavily wounded in that encounter.

Grunberd heavily wounded? He's just got a crack on the face, his shoulder healed when he transformed I think, I wouldn't call that heavy by apostle standards.

I agree with you about Griffith rationalizing it anyway, he'll probably view it as a minor hindrance.

Offline Griffith

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Re: Can Griffith be redeemed?
« Reply #64 on: February 18, 2005, 08:59:51 PM »
Yeah, I don't see Griffith peeing his pants over magic armor anytime soon. We already know that Guts can be stopped by small magic children. =)

Anyway, I think Griffith will somewhat keep up his laissez-faire attitude towards Guts, but he can't totally ignore it much longer, and I'm interested to know what Griffith would think of going to Elfhelm and Casca getting her mind back. Aside from that specific part of the trip, if Flora was a threat, an island of magic user's isn't somewhere you want your enemies possibly rallying support.

Offline Woland

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Re: Can Griffith be redeemed?
« Reply #65 on: February 18, 2005, 11:03:48 PM »
Grunberd heavily wounded? He's just got a crack on the face, his shoulder healed when he transformed I think, I wouldn't call that heavy by apostle standards.

Well, I thought Guts drove his blade in pretty deep (though I'm not entirely sure my memory is correct on that point), so I call it a heavy wound even if Grunnie healed it up.  Plus I gave Guts bonus points for piercing carborundum.

Anyway, I think Griffith will somewhat keep up his laissez-faire attitude towards Guts, but he can't totally ignore it much longer, and I'm interested to know what Griffith would think of going to Elfhelm and Casca getting her mind back. Aside from that specific part of the trip, if Flora was a threat, an island of magic user's isn't somewhere you want your enemies possibly rallying support.

Perhaps that's why Vritannis is Griffith's next target, to cut off escape to Elfhelm or aid from there.  And he would need a port as a homebase to attack Elfhelm directly, since I don't think that many of his troops can take to the air like Zodd.  If Elfhelm has as much magical firepower as expected, then Griffith might feel he needs a sizable force.
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Offline Tristram

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Re: Can Griffith be redeemed?
« Reply #66 on: February 19, 2005, 01:29:38 AM »
Well, I thought Guts drove his blade in pretty deep (though I'm not entirely sure my memory is correct on that point), so I call it a heavy wound even if Grunnie healed it up.  Plus I gave Guts bonus points for piercing carborundum.

Perhaps that's why Vritannis is Griffith's next target, to cut off escape to Elfhelm or aid from there.  And he would need a port as a homebase to attack Elfhelm directly, since I don't think that many of his troops can take to the air like Zodd.  If Elfhelm has as much magical firepower as expected, then Griffith might feel he needs a sizable force.

Griffith could use boats also, perhaps?
Also how much of a fight do you think these wizards and stuff will put up against apostles?  I would certainly hope a really good one... but of course the apostles will mow them over in the end if it comes to a fight between magic users and apostles.

Also, the wizards might not be worried about the stuff going on outside Elfhelm.  Having been only there for so long they might simply not care what happens to everywhere else...

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Can Griffith be redeemed?
« Reply #67 on: February 19, 2005, 09:41:37 AM »
Well, I thought Guts drove his blade in pretty deep (though I'm not entirely sure my memory is correct on that point), so I call it a heavy wound even if Grunnie healed it up.  Plus I gave Guts bonus points for piercing carborundum.

Well, it wasn't too far from cutting his arm off actually, but after the transformation Grunberd has no visible wound whatsoever. We all know losing limbs and being cut aren't a big deal for them. As for cracking the Corundum skin, yeah it gives Guts some points, but I still wouldn't call it a heavy wound. ^^; No big deal anyway.

Perhaps that's why Vritannis is Griffith's next target, to cut off escape to Elfhelm or aid from there.

Well, we're not sure yet whether Griffith will come or not to Vritannis, he's being married and already has Ganishka to deal with. In the same way, I'm not sure he plans to strike Elfhelm. See below.

but of course the apostles will mow them over in the end if it comes to a fight between magic users and apostles.

Oh, you think so? I'd advise you to think about it again. What did Griffith send against the dying Flora? More than 10 apostles, including 2 of his generals, Grunberd and Zodd.

And they suffered more casualties there than against Ganishka, thanks to Guts and SK, yet Grunberd couldn't do anything against the wall of fire Flora erected between him and the others.

So now, imagine a magically protected island, home to at lot of elves, meaning an incredible healing power and a fortress of "Good" in general (where the power of "Evil" would probably be lessened), where lives the Hanafubuku king, said to be extremely powerful, and a score of magic users like Flora, only in their prime. Not to mention that Guts and his band will be there, and that SK could be if there was a need, too (even a certain superior being, who knows).

What would Griffith send against them? His whole army? By boat? I don't think he'll do it considering the actual context, and as a matter of fact I wouldn't bet on his victory if he did, at least for now.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2005, 09:58:25 AM by Aazealh »

Hokuto_Master

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Re: Can Griffith be redeemed?
« Reply #68 on: March 31, 2005, 07:58:32 AM »
In my eyes Griffith can never be redeemed. He slaughtered all those who believed in him, he raped Casca in front of Guts' eyes, he destroyed her sanity... this is pure cruelty. There's no need to say more. If there are criminals I can't stand, it's rapists.

I don't have any admiration for this character whatsoever. Behind his angel mask he is one true selfish piece of trash. And I would be very disappointed (but not that surprised) if in the end he was forgiven for what he did. Griffith/Femto must pay, and I can't wait to see Dragon Slayer buried in his chest >:( Only that won't be enough to exterminate him... :-\
« Last Edit: April 01, 2005, 06:29:04 AM by Aazealh »

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Re: Can Griffith be redeemed?
« Reply #69 on: April 01, 2005, 04:40:01 PM »
I don't have any admiration for this character whatsoever. Behind his angel mask he is one true selfish piece of trash.

Griffith didn't wear a mask though, he was actually quite honest with Guts about the things that he did. Guts was his closest confindant in these matters as well; doing everything from killing Lords, kidnappers and even children. Griffith even asked Guts if he was horrible for these things, and Guts reassured him that he must do whatever it takes to achieve his dream. Remember, Guts is perhaps still Griffith's best disciple, and he's done many selfish and cruel things himself in the name of his own wants.

Also, Griffith didn't sacrifice the Hawks lightly or out of cruelty, first he endured very persuasive psychological torment at the hands of God Hand; where Guts all important support again trumped all.

Even Guts knows it's not as cut and dry as Griffith simply wronging him, as he reflected in volume 22, now he's the one that's been left behind.

I look forward to their continued relationship. :)

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Re: Can Griffith be redeemed?
« Reply #70 on: April 01, 2005, 04:59:02 PM »
Griffith even asked Guts if he was horrible for these things, and Guts reassured him that he must do whatever it takes to achieve his dream.

Well yeah, but I'm not sure Guts would have said the same thing, if he knew this "whatever it takes" involved the genocide of his comrades in the most gruesome way and the horrific rape of his lover.
But I do agree that nothing in Berserk is simple: completely black, or completely white.

You said the sacrifice wasn't made out of cruelty. The thing that really bothers me is not even the massacre, but the rape of Casca in front of Guts. Wasnt that pure cruelty? What was the point of that for Griffith? Why did he do such a thing...why did he do that to their couple? Why did he make it last that long, when he could have given them a quick death? What was the goal of his sadistic mind? Was it just for the pleasure of making them suffer? The pleasure of humiliating them?
This scene is sick. There is a huge difference between simply having no remorse hurting people indirectly, and enjoying giving pain youself. And Femto was looking directly at Guts while raping Casca, like he wanted to make sure Guts doesn't miss a second of it... to break them psychologically before putting an end to their misery.

Guts may be a mass-murderer, as much as Griffith, but I don't remember Guts hurting people for the pleasure. It's all the difference to me that makes Guts far more worthy than Griffith. And after all, didn't SK say he had a good heart?  ;D
« Last Edit: April 01, 2005, 05:24:43 PM by Hokuto_Master »

Offline Griffith

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Re: Can Griffith be redeemed?
« Reply #71 on: April 01, 2005, 05:21:37 PM »
Well yeah, but I'm not sure Guts would have said the same thing, if he knew this "whatever it takes" involved the genocide of his comrades in the most gruesome way and the horrific rape of his lover.
But I do agree that nothing in Berserk is simple: completely black, or completely white.

Exactly, I'm not saying it's not awful, but Griffith wasn't dishonest with Guts, and he never minded these horrible acts, participated in them greatly actually, until it was his time to be was on the recieving end. So I don't think Griffith betrayed Guts anymore than Guts betrayed him by leaving. They're men that do what they will.

The thing that really bothers me is not even the massacre, but the rape of Casca in front of Guts. What was the point of that for Griffith? Why did he do such a thing... He could have sacrificed his band, but even if he felt no remorse, why didn't he give Guts and Casca a quick death? Why did he do that to their couple? What was the goal of his sadistic mind?

Yes, but he was quite literally a monster at that point. I don't dissolve Griffith of responsibility for Femto's actions, just as I wouldn't for Guts the Beast's, but the difference is something that must be considered. This old post pretty much sums up my stance on the issue:

Femto is a demon by nature, while Griffith was a man; inherently, there is a difference. Olivier Hague made that eloquent point, and I don't see any good reason to challenge it, especially with what we now know about one's Od and the way it can be supernaturally affected/manipulated. Griffith's supernatural ego may have gone to meet Idea, but what left that meeting could no longer be considered simply that. Griffith's ego was infused with the negative flow of the abyss, turning him into a demon; Femto.

Schierke, Volume 26, Episode 226, translated by Saiki:

"Those who... ...are exposed to the flow of 'Odo' will literally turn into a demon."

Something akin to this also happened to Griffith.

http://www.skullknight.net/yabbse/index.php?topic=4218.0
« Last Edit: April 01, 2005, 05:26:52 PM by "Griffith No More!" »

Hokuto_Master

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Re: Can Griffith be redeemed?
« Reply #72 on: April 01, 2005, 05:38:56 PM »
I never really made a difference between Griffith and Femto because on another board most were agreeing that a godhand has his free will, and is not forced to act evil.
Indeed, if you consider this whole theory of Griffith being consumed by evil, turning into a demon who lost all trace of humanity, and the similarities with Guts' beast, it is confusing... it doesn't mean I don't want his head though. He's still greatly responsible for it  ;D And in volume 3, as Femto, he seems pretty aware of who is and what he is doing.

I pray so that Guts gets Femto's head. >:(
 
Poor Casca. :-\ What did she do to deserve all this... :o
« Last Edit: April 02, 2005, 04:47:44 PM by Hokuto_Master »

Offline Griffith

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Re: Can Griffith be redeemed?
« Reply #73 on: April 01, 2005, 06:02:11 PM »
Poor Casca. :-\ What did she do to deserve all this... :o

Yeah, I think what she's going to do when she comes back is the biggest issue in the series I'm torn on. Basically, anything she decides will both surprise and not surprise me.

Though, we've already got some foreshadowing it might not be what Guts' wants. Very interesting, looking forward to it.

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Re: Can Griffith be redeemed?
« Reply #74 on: April 02, 2005, 12:15:24 PM »
Basically, anything she decides will both surprise and not surprise me.
and how would you manage to be both surprised and not surprised at the same time? i mean this sounds very quixotic on one hand - but not very logical at the other hand ^^

Quote
Though, we've already got some foreshadowing it might not be what Guts' wants. Very interesting, looking forward to it.
what kind of foreshadowing do we have? i mean what makes you believe Casca's action might not be what Guts wants?
and... what does Guts want? what does he expect from the one woman he loved?

do you think Casca would not want to live on once she realizes what happened to the only two men in her young life she truly admired? (assuiming that she _did_ admire guts when he chose to leave the hawks.)
What could she possibly do?
« Last Edit: April 02, 2005, 12:19:33 PM by trapped_soul »