Author Topic: Is it really a choice?  (Read 4307 times)

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Offline Opie

Is it really a choice?
« on: September 15, 2004, 06:32:25 PM »
Okay I'm pretty new around here and not really traveresed in the lore and history of Bererk, but I've been reading the older threads lately and I have a question.

Did Griffith really have a choice at the Eclipse? We all know he said "I sacrifice..." and that technicelly there was the ability to choose not to kill the Hawks, but then I came across the whole casuality thing.

In another post someone said that Griffiths whole life had been conditioned and pre planed so that he would say "yes" at the Eclipse by the Idea of Evil. To me that's almost like saying to your kid "Well we brought you up Christian for twenty years...wanna join Islam?" (bad example) I don't really see how it was fair for anyone in that situation. Griffith was never given the chance to become a normal person that would have chosen not to sacrifice the Hawks. I almost think the whole asking part was just a technicality...that kinda makes me pity him.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2004, 06:34:17 PM by Opie »
My school was the open road. Pain and suffering, my textbooks. My teachers, the gypsies and rapscallions I met along the way. The only constant in my life was art. For you see boys and girls I, Manny Coon, am enslaved to the harshest mistress of all, my muse... That bitch rode the right side of my brain for all she was worth. Always driving me on to find that shade of blue that makes you cry, that red that makes you hot. And always... always, to paint bigger, and better, tits. - Manny Coon

Offline Sparnage

Re: Is it really a choice?
« Reply #1 on: September 15, 2004, 07:18:08 PM »
Yes he had the chance to escape his fucked up reality with a crushed ambition at the cost of doing something so low and essentially kill those who risked their lives and died to save him, and so he did.

Offline Opie

Re: Is it really a choice?
« Reply #2 on: September 15, 2004, 08:32:44 PM »
But his entire life was just a puppet play molding him into th kind of person that would not except his ambitions demise. Thats what I'm getting at, he never really had a choice if thats true.
My school was the open road. Pain and suffering, my textbooks. My teachers, the gypsies and rapscallions I met along the way. The only constant in my life was art. For you see boys and girls I, Manny Coon, am enslaved to the harshest mistress of all, my muse... That bitch rode the right side of my brain for all she was worth. Always driving me on to find that shade of blue that makes you cry, that red that makes you hot. And always... always, to paint bigger, and better, tits. - Manny Coon

Offline sil

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Re: Is it really a choice?
« Reply #3 on: September 15, 2004, 08:40:37 PM »
He had a choice, his life or someone else's
He picked himself. Its a selfish choice, that shouldn't surprise Guts

Offline DemonX

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Re: Is it really a choice?
« Reply #4 on: September 16, 2004, 02:35:29 AM »
No, he really didn't. This was his true will, what he really wanted. This was causality. Going against this would be going against fate, going against somthing inescapable. Like Opie said, all his years he was molded to be the type of person he is now, and there is no way to avoid it.
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Offline Sparnage

Re: Is it really a choice?
« Reply #5 on: September 16, 2004, 01:40:05 PM »
The Count chose to say no, there is no reason why Griffith could have surprised the Godhand by rejecting the offer also.

Offline Opie

Re: Is it really a choice?
« Reply #6 on: September 16, 2004, 01:49:37 PM »
That was the second choice he had to make, that time he wasn't put through a lifetime of conditioning for that one question. His fated choice came when he killed his wife the first time. That time is was based on his own wish to go on living.
My school was the open road. Pain and suffering, my textbooks. My teachers, the gypsies and rapscallions I met along the way. The only constant in my life was art. For you see boys and girls I, Manny Coon, am enslaved to the harshest mistress of all, my muse... That bitch rode the right side of my brain for all she was worth. Always driving me on to find that shade of blue that makes you cry, that red that makes you hot. And always... always, to paint bigger, and better, tits. - Manny Coon

Offline Sparnage

Re: Is it really a choice?
« Reply #7 on: September 16, 2004, 03:32:46 PM »
That doesn't change anything, the Count had two choices, he accepted one and rejected the other due to certain circumstances. The choice for Griffith was clearly very appealing, he said the words and made the choice because he is a selfish person who had nothing going for him without the option, but a choice is still a choice.

Offline Opie

Re: Is it really a choice?
« Reply #8 on: September 16, 2004, 03:43:02 PM »
Actually it changes the whole question. Just because they asked a question doesn't mean he actually had a choice. Yes he said I choose when they asked but why did he choose. More importantly why is he so selfish? Its the same with Griffith.

 Because of the Idea, his meddeling created Griffith into what he was through a lifetime of experiances and meetings, so that when he was asked the big question their would be no way he would say no.

In a way Idea took away Griffiths right to grow and develop normaly since birth. He was being guided all that way up until that point, so there was no real choice at all.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2004, 03:45:06 PM by Opie »
My school was the open road. Pain and suffering, my textbooks. My teachers, the gypsies and rapscallions I met along the way. The only constant in my life was art. For you see boys and girls I, Manny Coon, am enslaved to the harshest mistress of all, my muse... That bitch rode the right side of my brain for all she was worth. Always driving me on to find that shade of blue that makes you cry, that red that makes you hot. And always... always, to paint bigger, and better, tits. - Manny Coon

Offline Sparnage

Re: Is it really a choice?
« Reply #9 on: September 16, 2004, 05:21:19 PM »
Well that could be said about anyone being controlled by the Idea and being made by them. Back to the Count, a chosen being who was also meddled by the Idea and put in a dilemma of escaping a death he is so afraid of enough to summon the Godhand, how is his choice any different to Griffiths? Why was the counts life any different? He was guided up by the Idea also wasn't he?

The only difference I could see is that Griffith has a Godhand rather than an Apostle is one step higher on the podium of importance. And he is so selfish because he sacrificed those who were dying for him, but the Godhand showing him his little clip of the movie of his life and what he has done was just to justify doing such a horrible thing, after all when they died for him as soldiers it was their choice and he was risking his life as well, this way he directly killed them and sent them to a eternity of shit to get what he wanted. 

If the Idea would know the answer to any question and decision why would he bother having a futile thing like an unnecessary choice in the first place? Why would he make a being like Guts escaped the Godhands grasp and now is hell bent on killing so many of his prefered children in the first place? He had the choice as there was a choice is what we do know, he could have said no and been looked after by Judeau and Casca but he didn't.

Also if you really believe there is no choice then there is no problem or conflict, and if there is no conflict in Griffiths for things to majorly get in the way and wreck it for him  then that must mean you believe Guts has no way of winning in the slightest because the Idea wouldnt come close to allowing it.

In short if their was no choice, there wouldnt have been a choice. Maybe the idea has control over every single action, in which case if that were the truth than he diliberatly allows his chosen children to suffer and end up like the less fortunate children, Guts and Skully are proof of this.

Offline Opie

Re: Is it really a choice?
« Reply #10 on: September 16, 2004, 06:27:56 PM »
The Idea doesn't control, he minipulates. He can't make anyone do anything outright. He meddles with what's in his realm of power, human desires. In a way Griffith never wanted the a kingdom, Idea gave him the desire to set him on the path.

Back to the Count though. What makes him different than Griffith at the eclipse was Guts. Guts was a rather big part of Ideas plan since the get go. Without him why would his little Griffith fall like he did? Idea had just as much control over Guts as he has over Griffith at that point. Idea threw all the crap at Guts so he would become to man that his God Hand would "love". He was also minipulted into leaving the Hawks so that it would cause Griffiths downfall.

After Guts little escape he became the variable remember, Idea hadn't really created a path for Guts to follow after that, he was supposed to be sacrificed along with the rest of the Hawks. Of course our man Skully comes along and changes that.

So now Guts goes hunting Apostles. Is he supposed to bother Ideas chosen ones? No he's supposed to be dead. But now he's out on a rampage making waves. This is bad news for the Count because we all know what happend to him, he lost. So on and so on until he summons the Godhand with a request to live. This is what sets the Counts second summoning apart from the Eclipse, where as the Eclipse was a pre planned hoopla this summoning of the Godhand is a wildcard, not in the least planned. The Count has none of the conditioning he had the first time, and he is actually given a choice. Idea never minipulated him into feeling his life was worth more than his daughters either so he has a fairly sound mind at the time. This all leads him to choose the right choice and lets his daughter live.

The way I see it is that everyone has free choice in Berserk, in a way at least. Idea's roots have sunked so deep though, that his machinations have become so complex that its ALMOST unescapable. By putting pebbles in Griffiths path the whole way until the eclipse is completly unfair to him, its unfair for all the apostles aswell. I suppose thats why he's the Idea of Evil...

Well thats my take on it at least, its nice to find someone to debate with. I'm sure I'm somehow wrong though...you guys seem to have a better understanding than me.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2004, 06:33:23 PM by Opie »
My school was the open road. Pain and suffering, my textbooks. My teachers, the gypsies and rapscallions I met along the way. The only constant in my life was art. For you see boys and girls I, Manny Coon, am enslaved to the harshest mistress of all, my muse... That bitch rode the right side of my brain for all she was worth. Always driving me on to find that shade of blue that makes you cry, that red that makes you hot. And always... always, to paint bigger, and better, tits. - Manny Coon

Offline Sparnage

Re: Is it really a choice?
« Reply #11 on: September 16, 2004, 07:21:47 PM »
I'm not sure myself if he truely controls everything or just manipulates, I mean really there isn't enough evidence in the Manga to suggest it in concrete.
If he has control over everything then I have covered that possibility of a choice, but if he only manipulates then that means he has no absolute control, ergo Griffith really having a choice is higher.

If he only set him a path rather than made everything happen in advance as you seem to believe then the chances of him having more control of his choice to sacrifice the Hawks would definitely be higher, as outside the influence of the Idea and the path set for him he would still have control now wouldn't he? There is a difference between knowing the path and walking the path.

To your point of the Count I too agree that Guts was a big part of the Idea's plan as well, the reason Griffith had to fall was to lose Guts and to him but we really don't know if him surviving the Eclipse was not the Ideas intentions but we have a pretty good idea that the Idea DID know Guts was to survive the Eclipse. Slann says after Guts and Casca escape the Eclipse "it's impossible to forsee all things, are are not God himself". What the Godhand can predict may be much lower then the Idea's ability to forsee everything.

But that aside there is a good chance the Idea could have planned Guts to survive since well before the Eclipse, think of Skully coming in right at the moment to save them, Zodd not interfering with their survival and most importantly Rickert manages to stumble upon the Eclipse site right after being given fairy dust...
Guts in particular was fucked up bad and may very well have not survived without it. 

Besides I believe if the Idea was truely so threatened by Guts for going against everything stable then he could easily have set a path far more deadly then the current situation he is in in so many more ways, but thats my take on the situation anyway.

Offline DemonX

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Re: Is it really a choice?
« Reply #12 on: September 16, 2004, 07:29:27 PM »
Well that could be said about anyone being controlled by the Idea and being made by them. Back to the Count, a chosen being who was also meddled by the Idea and put in a dilemma of escaping a death he is so afraid of enough to summon the Godhand, how is his choice any different to Griffiths? Why was the counts life any different? He was guided up by the Idea also wasn't he?

The only difference I could see is that Griffith has a Godhand rather than an Apostle is one step higher on the podium of importance. And he is so selfish because he sacrificed those who were dying for him, but the Godhand showing him his little clip of the movie of his life and what he has done was just to justify doing such a horrible thing, after all when they died for him as soldiers it was their choice and he was risking his life as well, this way he directly killed them and sent them to a eternity of shit to get what he wanted. 

If the Idea would know the answer to any question and decision why would he bother having a futile thing like an unnecessary choice in the first place? Why would he make a being like Guts escaped the Godhands grasp and now is hell bent on killing so many of his prefered children in the first place? He had the choice as there was a choice is what we do know, he could have said no and been looked after by Judeau and Casca but he didn't.

Also if you really believe there is no choice then there is no problem or conflict, and if there is no conflict in Griffiths for things to majorly get in the way and wreck it for him  then that must mean you believe Guts has no way of winning in the slightest because the Idea wouldnt come close to allowing it.

In short if their was no choice, there wouldnt have been a choice. Maybe the idea has control over every single action, in which case if that were the truth than he diliberatly allows his chosen children to suffer and end up like the less fortunate children, Guts and Skully are proof of this.

Well think. Griffith is the Idea's "Chosen one". Griffith was ment to become a GH. The GH just does Ideas dirty work, like the festivels; as slann or ubrik said before, "We are not god himself." They were there to ask the count, and what mattered was what the count accomplished if he was in the Ideas "divine plan", which was to summon the GH to almost kill guts, or for Guts to meet femto temporarily again, or to sacrifice his wife. Only the idea would know what to do, not the GH themselves. They give the choice, but will there really be any other factor that would make griff or the count change their mind from the decision that they would originally make in the idea's "Divine plan"? If they did change their mind and said no, that would have been the Idea's will also, because its causality. Then Idea's divine plan would have been for griff to not become GH. But guess what? He because GH, because that was how he was molded all his life. This also means the way he thinks too.


Try looking at it this way. Is somone who is evil, truly evil? Would guts be so "to himself" if Gambino did not rape him? Would have griff ended up tortured for a year if he never made friends with guts? Or was it how these men were raised? The past experiences are what shapes somone's decisions; they are not made at random. Think of causality as a constant chain that the idea has planned before griff's bloodline ever even came into existance.

Perhaps the only path to convincing griffith of his true origins and becoming a GH was to give him a choice in the first place.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2004, 07:31:44 PM by DemonX »
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Offline Sparnage

Re: Is it really a choice?
« Reply #13 on: September 16, 2004, 11:40:11 PM »
I acknowledge that he was put in a position where aside the ethical principles that go against the choice he gets another real chance, and that because of all the incidents that happened in his life were put there for a reason so he would feel he had no choice but to make the offering, but a choice is still a choice.

As I said Griffith is still one step up on the podium to the Count but it doesn't change in the slightest that the Beherit was called in their life when at the most crucial time, which in the Counts case was right before he was about to die. At least Griffith wasn't about to die right there and then.

If there was only one option to take and it was known that the Count was going to say no then why did the Godhand waste their time with him? Things don't always go as planned even by those chosen by the Idea, so I don't see any reason why the ability to say "no" in even the most tempting positions could only be said by a potential Apostle and not a potential Godhand.

If there was no option to even choose there would not be a Eclipse and the Beherit would just grant the power at the right time. Just because he was given a choice of more power than just being an Apostle rather than a Godhand it doesn't mean his lack of free will was any less.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2004, 11:47:06 PM by Sparnage »

Offline DemonX

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Re: Is it really a choice?
« Reply #14 on: September 17, 2004, 12:59:20 AM »
Quote
As I said Griffith is still one step up on the podium to the Count but it doesn't change in the slightest that the Beherit was called in their life when at the most crucial time, which in the Counts case was right before he was about to die. At least Griffith wasn't about to die right there and then.

Who said causality will save an apostle's life every time they call for somthing? Maybe the first time it served a purpose of becoming an apostle, and the 2nd time its purpose was for mainly guts?


Quote
If there was only one option to take and it was known that the Count was going to say no then why did the Godhand waste their time with him? Things don't always go as planned even by those chosen by the Idea, so I don't see any reason why the ability to say "no" in even the most tempting positions could only be said by a potential Apostle and not a potential Godhand.

As I said before, the GH is not god himself (quoted from ubik or slann). They came because the Count called them, but the who says the idea is on the GH's side? The idea planned it so the Count would die maybe, and show guts some things?

I have this theory, that the idea's real champion is not griffith, but guts. Idea says things to griff just to pull strings, and get him to do what he wants him to do. And guts is the champion who hones himself and defeats griff, and does it the hard way without sacrificing his loved ones.
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Offline kimchan

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Re: Is it really a choice?
« Reply #15 on: September 17, 2004, 01:54:24 AM »
I do think that Griffith had a choice at that point.  He very well could have refused to sacrifice anyone.  BUT, the turns his life had taken in the past year alone made a choice like that very unlikely, which of course could come back to causality.  This is something of a theme in Berserk, choosing one's destiny or letting it be chosen for you.  If causality was all encompassing and powerful, then there would be no Berserk at this point, Guts (and Casca) would have died 14 volumes ago.  People can avoid their "fates" and defy causality.  It's just that it doesn't happen very often and it's not easy when it does.


Also take this to heart everyone:  It's causality.  Causality, rather than casualty.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2004, 01:57:41 AM by kimchan »
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Offline Opie

Re: Is it really a choice?
« Reply #16 on: September 17, 2004, 02:00:01 AM »
Ya Demon, I've been thinking that to actually.  The whole Griffith/Guts thing is gettin' pretty intense.
My school was the open road. Pain and suffering, my textbooks. My teachers, the gypsies and rapscallions I met along the way. The only constant in my life was art. For you see boys and girls I, Manny Coon, am enslaved to the harshest mistress of all, my muse... That bitch rode the right side of my brain for all she was worth. Always driving me on to find that shade of blue that makes you cry, that red that makes you hot. And always... always, to paint bigger, and better, tits. - Manny Coon

Offline DemonX

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Re: Is it really a choice?
« Reply #17 on: September 17, 2004, 03:20:59 AM »
Quote
Also take this to heart everyone:  It's causality.  Causality, rather than casualty.


Only if someone made that announcment a couple months earlier ^^;
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Offline Kagemusha

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Re: Is it really a choice?
« Reply #18 on: September 17, 2004, 08:57:14 PM »
Is it possible to escape fate? Well Guts and Casca did (of course they still are being hounded), but remember the Godhand was quite suprised, as well as Zodd. I think that despite it being his destiny, Griffith could have gone against his fate. It would be interesting to see his state of mind had he been faced with the decision before Guts left the Hawks.
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Offline Jon Schaffer

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Re: Is it really a choice?
« Reply #19 on: September 17, 2004, 08:59:46 PM »
No.

Offline DemonX

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Re: Is it really a choice?
« Reply #20 on: September 17, 2004, 09:39:21 PM »
Is it possible to escape fate? Well Guts and Casca did (of course they still are being hounded), but remember the Godhand was quite suprised, as well as Zodd. I think that despite it being his destiny, Griffith could have gone against his fate. It would be interesting to see his state of mind had he been faced with the decision before Guts left the Hawks.

Jesus, have you even read what I was saying? The GH is not god himself; they have limits to their powers.
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Offline C

Re: Is it really a choice?
« Reply #21 on: September 18, 2004, 01:52:20 AM »
Quote
Posted by: Kagemusha  Posted on: Today at 04:57:14pm 
 
Is it possible to escape fate? Well Guts and Casca did 



Quote
Posted by: Jon Schaffer  Posted on: Today at 04:59:46pm 
 
No. 


i agree jon,


fate    ( P )  Pronunciation Key  (ft)
n.

The supposed force, principle, or power that predetermines events.
The inevitable events predestined by this force.
A final result or consequence; an outcome.


if guts and Casca escaped or didnt die or whatever,

it was their "fate", thats obvious,

and i also agree with demonx,

the gh do have their limitations, just not as limited as a regular human,

they have their fate too, look at griffith

 - c  :)

Offline Sparnage

Re: Is it really a choice?
« Reply #22 on: September 21, 2004, 07:10:28 PM »


Who said causality will save an apostle's life every time they call for somthing? Maybe the first time it served a purpose of becoming an apostle, and the 2nd time its purpose was for mainly guts?

I don't see why it would be for Guts.

Quote
As I said before, the GH is not god himself (quoted from ubik or slann). They came because the Count called them, but the who says the idea is on the GH's side? The idea planned it so the Count would die maybe, and show guts some things?

Because Godhand were chosen by the idea himself to do his bidding, they are like his favourite kids.

Quote
I have this theory, that the idea's real champion is not griffith, but guts. Idea says things to griff just to pull strings, and get him to do what he wants him to do. And guts is the champion who hones himself and defeats griff, and does it the hard way without sacrificing his loved ones.

If the Idea indeed controls everything because lets face it; alot of this is speculation and it's very hard to tell if how much control he has over the human race, all we can assume is that it's alot and he can practically see everything coming.

Hypothetically though if he were able to not only see but control everything also and Guts managed to kill Griffith than that would mean it was planned from the beginning.

Having said that, from the Idea's conversation with Griffith proves that he shares a very very close bond with Griffith, prehaps more than the rest of the Godhand which is why he is the chosen one to be the reason for the second Eclipse, so I find it hard to believe that Guts is really the chosen one over Griffith.

 
« Last Edit: September 21, 2004, 07:12:28 PM by Sparnage »

Offline DemonX

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Re: Is it really a choice?
« Reply #23 on: September 21, 2004, 07:59:32 PM »
Maybe Idea's convo with griffith is just to manipulate him? Probably the only way to get a desired fate for everyone later, the idea does things that doesnt make sense?
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