Terrorists, gedonaddaheayah

CnC

Ad Oculos
I agree with walter on America's stubborness.  
This Bin Ladan guy might not even be the ring leader, but rather the one in the public eye.  Theres also the idea that Iraq was involved.  so many theories, so little time.
Well, all European nations are behind the US now it seems.  Just as long as Afganistan and other countries don't unite we won't have World war 3 (i can see it now... China backs up Afganistan).

we're all doomed people... doomed.

side-note: sweeet. I'm a "Berserk Addict".  Ironic that my transition was on a subject that had nothing to do with berserk.
 

eintrigga

Today's Yamaba?
I agree with walter on America's stubborness. ?This Bin Ladan guy might not even be the ring leader, but rather the one in the public eye.  Theres also the idea that Iraq was involved.  so many theories, so little time.
Well, all European nations are behind the US now it seems.  Just as long as Afganistan and other countries don't unite we won't have World war 3 (i can see it now... China backs up Afganistan).

we're all doomed people... doomed.

side-note: sweeet. I'm a "Berserk Addict".  Ironic that my transition was on a subject that had nothing to do with berserk.

finding someone to blame, like they say, is the true american way...world war 3 sounds possible, but this war would have no real purpose nor an agenda -- just people killing people, then again, same could be said with all conflicts
>:(

btw., i also just found out that i'm at the berserk addict level, kick ass!
 

Walter

Administrator
Staff member
An interesting development, the UN has just issued 'Article 5' which allows the US to trample on any member of the UN's ground. Basically, we could use Russia's (or technically....any major country) southern border that is just on the northern border of Afghanistan to get a foothold...

Of cource, Im not the one who is rooting for war, I just see it as an undeniable after-effect of American Headstrongedness...
 
I think that the date of the terrorists' attack is linked with the
recurrence of the massacre of Sabra and Chatila,
a coward and bloody attack inflicted in 1982 by Israeli Special Forces on Palestinian harmless refugees.
At that time, Israel had at the head of its Defence Department the man that I consider to be responsible for the attempts escalation, from Middle East to Manhattan:
president Ariel Sharon.
 

CnC

Ad Oculos
Russia's (or technically....any major country) southern border that is just on the northern border of Afghanistan to get a foothold...

that didn't work for the Russians, as I recall :)

Also, I thought that "Article 5" thing was issued by NATO, not the UN. But then again I've been out of the loop for the past couple of hours, so there could be an article 5 for both.
 

Vampire_Hunter_Bob

Cats are great
AAaaah fuck it...
Bomb them all....

that won't work, Clinton bombed Iraq how many times? all he did was bomb them and leave and thats what it seems that you want, but what we need to do is go into these countrys that are alowing terrorist training camps and set up a new government we did the same in WW2 we got rid of the nazi ragem and set up a new government.
David
 

Ahmed

I love YaBB 1 Gold!
I wish that the US did that with Saddam in the gulf war the son of bitch is still in power, developing his weapons
 

White_Hawk

The Only True Free Spirit / Dark Horse Rider
Well, I am not the only one that wants to bomb them. Half the american government wants to. But I was wrong to say just bomb them. I forgot to add INVADE them afterwards. By occupying those forsaken lands maybe there 's a chance to narrow the possibilites of terrorist training. Similiar bastards planted a car bomb in my city, but were so stupid to blow them selves up instead. HA HA, serves you right enemies of the Faith!
Well, I'm done with my childish outbursts of rage, I hope Bush starts with his.

What?
Bellicious bastard I am you say? Damn right! For once in history I agree with the american policy of war. And I even ain't american...
 

Walter

Administrator
Staff member
One of the biggest problems with people designing solutions for this issue is that few people step outside their own opinions,and place themselves in the shoes of the terrorists. Do you not think that these people were prepared to die? How do you REALLY think theyll respond to bombings?

"Oh no! Theyre going to bomb us! We didnt expect this!! Who woulda thunk?!"

Bombing won't solve anything, because the problem here isnt THEM, the problem is the US's failure to acurately negotiate a well reasoned international affairs policy.
 

White_Hawk

The Only True Free Spirit / Dark Horse Rider
I cannot criticise another country' s policy, but from what I've seen, the guys in your government are pretty resolute to invade 'ganistan. I know that there are many ppl that dislike the Taleban rule, and I hope that the us army won't polverize the area, yet if they occupy a country that's already in ruins, they may discover and destroy the training camps for terrorists, educate the children in a different fashion, do something like they did with japan after ww2.
It's always better than shaking fists at the midddle east, since country after country, this threat can be stoppped, even if it means invading the whole middle east.
American and ally occupation is far better than the totalitaristic rule in plenty of those 'stan countries.
And they suck too...
 
M

Magallanes

Guest
Bush only has started!.. Now begin the Bush-iron-hand politics.. take care that the search-and-hunter can reach even for a american. Is usual to use the disgrace in politics, .... ohhh, is terrible the accident... but in any case the tax will be raised!.

Bush known that they cannot win to someone allow to die anytime!, they only can spend money firing under civilians, and this help to propagate the hatred again USA. In opposite if USA will help with medicaments, education and construction for this "enemy", it convert the "enemy" in a "ally"..
 

fletch

Treading trodden trails for a long, long time.
sorry, this is a bit long, but it'll clear some stuff up, i hope.

well, i agree with some of the thoughts expressed here, & i like that everybody's at least giving a good shot at looking at the big picture.

but here's some clarifications to some things i noticed

the discussion of the evidence has been flawed. what we have linking these guys to bin laden is fairly extensive. for one thing, we know they were arab. this proves nothing. the arab language flight manuals found in cars in both airports prove only that there were arab flight students aboard, though those are the most promising leads into finding those immediately responsible for the attacks. also, they indicate that the perpetrators were foreign (no english langauge flight manuals were found, & it would make a great deal of sense for any responsible party to review before the attacks... by no means concrete evidence, but indicators).
what we have actually linking them to bin laden consists mostly of radio transmissions. the CIA has intercepted a whole lot more transmissions from bin laden's group than usual, many of which said "we did it, we did it!" etc.
also, most terrorist organizations claim credit for successful bombings, especially large ones like this. bin laden's groups don't. additionally, he has the resources to pull something like this off, & has repeatedly shown a preference for simultaneous attacks, as well as highjacking.
the rest of the leads we have are a bit harder to follow, & some of them i don't think we have access to yet.
additionally, 3 weeks prior to the attack, bin laden issued a threat of "unprecedented" activity. that also fits his M.O., by the way.
 

fletch

Treading trodden trails for a long, long time.
also, i saw a thread on here saying that our intelligence agencies are at fault. this is quite true, we should've seen something like this coming. however, this is largely because of the misdirection of funds. i've talked at length to a very prolific terrorism expert, h.h.a. cooper, who teaches at my university. while i haven't talked to him about this topic yet, i know pretty much what he'd say. the only way you prevent terrorist activities is by finding out about them in advance & having a helluva good security system. he's in favor of israel-like flight precautions (armed guards on every commuter flight) as a method of preventing highjacking.
how do you find out about a terrorist organization? not by electronic survellience, but by infiltration. most of the intelligence funds since the collapse of the soviet union have been directed toward artificial means of intelligence gathering, like the advancement of satellites & the like. check the budgets, & you'll find this is true. we've been routinely placing emphasis away from the human element of intelligence gathering, which is a huge mistake. so yes, throwing money at these institutions won't do anything by itself, we need to make sure these funds go to EFFECTIVE counter-terrorism strategies, which, to be honest, need a thorough evaluation themselves. plus, with the current levels of anti-us sentiment in the middle east, we've been losing our regular contacts.

that brings me to another point. the most immediate explanation for these attacks is the massive amount of resentment that we're getting over the israel debate. we're taking a very hands-off, isolationist approach to the conflict right now. all we've been telling israel is that they can't invade palestinian held lands using our technology. we've also told them not to attack or hold palestinian held buildings/cities/land with their military hardware, either. that's about it. up until clinton left office, we had a very constructive, very hands-on role in the conflict, trying to broker peace accords. the middle eastern area have actually been quite frustrated with us for our current policy of non-involvement in the dispute. we nearly got labeled as a racist country ourselves at that u.n. conference for seeming not to care about what's going on. staying out of it won't help anything, that's what we've been trying to do since bush took office & it's only led to a massive escalation of violence. we need to make sure that israel treats its citizens fairly & doesn't try to expand its borders & makes peace with its neighbors, not withdraw. we made the mistake of unilateral withdrawl from countries we were heavily involved with at the end of the cold war. we left a lot of places high & dry. hell, somalia was mostly our fault. we left a huge power vacuum when we pulled our support from the somalian government. well, i won't get into that, but if anybody wants to know more about it, i'll send you some informative (& remarkably unbiased) articles i've come across. international relations is a hobby of mine.

finally, i do think we need to do something about osama bin laden. it's not about pride. i agree, we're obviously the goliath of this situation, but we do have certain principles that we're supposed to stand for, & if we don't, it will convince others that terrorism is a good way to accomplish their goals. terrorism, by definition (courtesy of professor h.h.a. cooper, who defined the concept during the 70's), is instilling massive fear in a population in order to accomplish political or idealogical ends. if we let this one go, we prove the usefulness of terrorism in affecting politcal change. retaliation will almost definately lead to reprisals, but doing nothing will prompt terrorists to attack even more. right now we have the support of the entire world, minus iraq & afghanistan. additionally, this was an attack not only against civillians, but against our economic & military institutions. in other words, the terrorists responsible for this attack committed an act of war against the united states, nothing less.
 

fletch

Treading trodden trails for a long, long time.
oh, & article 5 of nato:
written in 1949, article five was intended to protect europe from an invasion from the soviet union. basically, it goes like this:
any military attack against one (or more) nato member nation shall be percieved as an attack on all the nato member nations.

aticle five is basically the stipulation of the nato treaty that assures mutual defense in the case of a military attack on any member nation. all article 5 states is that the other nato members can support us without violating international laws by attacking a nation unprovoked. it also means that any nato nation cooperating with an assualt by one nato country against an enemy can volunteer its bases for logistic support. this does NOT mean we can set up a base in russia. it does mean we could set up a base in germany or france or england & use that, IF they allow it. i guess whoever (walter, i think) posted that got it mixed up with the united nations, which has no such provision. understandable though, with all the confusion. ok, that's it from me for the moment, hope i cleared some things up with my uber post.
 

mangykid-cinnaman

Why?? why?? why the slaughter of ewoks?!?! noooooo
well, i'm gonna say it! you can't stop me! WHY CAN'T WE ALL JUST GET ALONG. ok i said it. but also, if you think about it, this isn't that important. think if all of new york and wahington D.C. were destroyed. huh? what's that you say? I am an ass? I KNOW. im a big ol' ass-a-doodle. Damn reject for a muppet president. on vacation for a month after that tough (sarcasm) 6 1/2 months of office. well he better get used to it, hes got 34 more months to go. i think my dad would be a better president. he gets things done. he's a go getter. he gives me money. i like break dancing bacon. oh yeah, remember how they were saying that plane that went over the capitol was a distraction? i think that THIS was a distraction. yup. something's coming. i'll give it 2 more days.

It was a nice day today though. me an' paul decided to tour the old abandoned gymnasium, which we couldn't get in. the basement was open though, and there was a generator and all kinds of crap along with the 2 foot deep water and the busted down door. and i found stuff to build my "fort of death". what a good day. i also kicked over over trees, nearly made one fall on paul, played with a broken car tire by kicking it down the street, rode my bike, ate a BLT w/ fries, found that kid who says the government is following him (I totally believe him), injured myself thrice, and planned for a new kind of tentative aviation.

well, my world's happy as ever except for allergies. i hope whatever made this such a good week for me continues. kinda got offtopic though, it used to be my name anyway...
 

White_Hawk

The Only True Free Spirit / Dark Horse Rider
Well mangy, I'm glad you had a nice time during these past few days. That's nice, Stimpy.

Now, about the topic...
I said before they should bomb the bastards. I don't think so no more, I was under impression by watching the scenery of the attacks. People in afghanistan don't really like the taleban, and are basically so poor and miserabile uunder their rule, that they probably don't even know what's coming.
Forget the bombing. The US should send marines and a whole lotta of ground troops and occupy th country and estabilish a really big intelligence network in the whole middle east, and then systematically eradicate the terroris gropus by, as Fletch puts it, infiltration.
I mean, those poor bastards really don't deserve to pay for the decisions of some fucked up, evil, anti faith Taleban government. They made a mockery out of Islam, which is very shaky as faith anyway, and took the worse possible interpretation of it. There are part in Ku'ran(the moslem bible) which say that each man should donate something to those less happy than he is. Problem is, 80% of islamic countries are so unhappy and miserable they can't find anyone more sorry than they are. So some of them blame the rich west for their misery, which is wrong cuz many people down there are plain lazy and prefer winning things by force(except the emirates, rich as hell, but also peaceful as well).

Fletch, you wrote quite an essay beck there and I agree with most parts, however, I stated above what I think bout it...
 

Fishbomb

Fear the slightly white swordsman!
I must say that it is very nice and refreshing to hear this sensible discussion on the subject. Right now I can't even go to most of my normal hangouts because of this.

Some input from over here in sweden: Article 5... that was amended a year or so back, so that not only would it encompass acts of war, but acts of terrorism as well. Yeah, talk about foresight. Our two neighbouring NATO countries, Denmark and Norway are reacting in two totally different ways. Denmark is readying itself for some sort of military action, while Norway is far more pensive, thinking war is not the way to solve this. Of course that was a few days ago, and things might have changed again.

There has been a lot of anger at the Palestinian people for dancing in the streets, but a lot of understanding as well. After all, the anxiety and fear the americans are feeling now, the loss of loved ones, is the same that they have felt for years and years. When you are desperate, the news that someone, anyone has struck back against the people that you percieve partly responsible, then of course they would celebrate. And that is the problem here. The americans are percieved as the bad guys, for their support of Israel, for the way their multinational companies have been acting, for the arrogant way they handle themselves abroad. I won't go into this more... but I think that every agressive act that the US takes are just going to reinfoce that image.

Unfortunately I think that violence is the only way the US will answer...
 

Fishbomb

Fear the slightly white swordsman!
I normally wouldn't do this, but this was posted on the Chaos mailing list, and I just think that it is something that people might want to read. So without further ado, over to LordKain:

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

Part 1:

With recent events emotions are high and everyone has opinions on what happened and should be done. Many have been voicing these opinions here and I have been tempted to do the same; however, I have chosen not to make the cacophony louder by adding my own numerous opinions. Instead, I would like to ask that we consider the direction which our anger, media, and leaders are taking us (namely, open conflict and very likely war.) Before I go any further, please re-read the first hand accounts sent in by Bob R. that I have copied below and really try to imagine this as if you were the one experiencing this.
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I am writing this from downtown New York. In a perverse reversal, I have no way to contact anyone except through my high-speed wireless internet connection--phones are out, and electricity in the area is intermittent.

The media will ultimately tell the story better than I, but I can
tell you that there is massive loss of life. The sky is black with ash, the people have been panicking and fleeing in unadulterated terror. I have never seen anything like it. It is very difficult to breathe, even with your mouth covered--the ash blows down the streets and burns your eyes. It feels
like the world has ended. When the screaming started and the crowds began to run after the second plane struck it was a horror film running in overdrive, jumping frames and cutting in and out. Time got lost--I don¹t know how long this went on. I have a cut on my leg. I ended up in a Wendy¹s where a
huge number of us took refuge. I don¹t know where the workers were--I helped get water for people.

I am starting to see emergency workers, and the streets are clearing somewhat--at least the first waves of panic are passing. I¹ve seen bodies draped in white sheets--it took me a time to realize those were bodies, not injured people; they must be out of room or not be able to get them to the morgues or the hospitals.

I¹m headed for the Brooklyn Bridge to walk out of the city. I¹m going to stop at any hospital I find to give blood before leaving. If anyone reading this can, please donate blood--I heard from a medic that the hospitals are already running out.

md
 

Fishbomb

Fear the slightly white swordsman!
Part 2:

I am writing this from my home in Brooklyn after leaving Manhattan. I have signed up for a time slot to give blood later this evening and have a few hours available before then.

After my last posting I made my way east through an urban
moonscape--everywhere there is ash, abandoned bags in the street, people looking lost. I managed to get a cell line out to Jean-Michele, who is still in Seattle, and she helped me navigate with online maps as I plotted my exit strategy.

Bizarrely, I caught a taxi crosstown. I was standing at a corner, I¹m not even certain where, and a taxi was sitting there. A very pushy woman, whom I will always be thankful for, barged her way into the cab. In a moment, without thinking, I climbed in too. The driver, a Pakistani guy who had an improbable smile, immediately took off.

The ash blocks out the sun downtown--it¹s like driving in an
impossible midnight, and even more impossible that I¹m in a cab, with this woman who won¹t stop trying her cell phone and another man, my age, who looks like he¹s been crying. Maybe he just has ash in his eyes. I know I do--I feel
like I will never see properly again, though that¹s probably just
trauma. I don¹t even know where the driver is going. The crying man got someone on *his* cell phone, starts explaining what he¹s seeing out the window.
It¹s like having a narrator traveling with us--I only notice the things that he is describing as he describes them.

God bless that taxi driver--we never paid him. He let us all off, and I think he got out as well, near the Brooklyn Bridge. There are cops everywhere, people are herding themselves quite calmly, mutely, onto the bridge. We all walk across the Brooklyn Bridge, which is unbelievably beautiful, the wires and stone of the bridge surrounding us and the bright sun ahead, passing out of darkness.

No one is talking to each other, but there is a sense of warmth. Everyone has their cell phones out, fishing for a clear signal. Those who catch them talk hurriedly to families, friends, people in other cities, children in their homes. It is comforting to hear their voices, telling how they are
okay, shhh, it's okay, I¹m okay. As we walk out into the sunlight, I am so happy to be in this company, the company of people who are alright, those who walked out.
 

Fishbomb

Fear the slightly white swordsman!
Part 3:I was in the city today to turn in some of my book, I had stayed up all night writing and I was so worried--is it ready, have I done my work? Those questions seem small today--not unimportant, but smaller, in a new proportion. I kept thinking of how much I have left to do in my life, so
many things that are undone, people I haven¹t spoken to in years. It's overwhelming to feel everyone around me thinking the same thing, the restless thoughts trickling over this bridge as we come back to Brooklyn.

From the Promenade I stand with hundreds of others, listening to radios, watching the plumes of smoke and the empty holes in the skyline. People stand there for a long time, talk to one another in hushed tones. Someone
hands out a flier for a vigil this evening, which I will go to after
I give blood.

What can be said? Just this: we will emphasize the horror and the evil, and that is all true. It is not the entire story. I saw an old man with breathing problems and two black kids in baggy pants and ghetto gear rubbing his back, talking to him. No one was rioting or looting. People helped each
other in small and tremendous ways all day longŠa family was giving away sandwiches at the Promenade. Everyone I talked to agreed to go give blood.If a draft had been held to train people to be firefighters there would have been fights to see who got to volunteer.

No matter how wide and intricate this act of evil may be it pales in comparison to the quiet dignity and strength of regular people. I have never been more proud of my country.

md
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Now, with that experience fresh in your mind consider, THIS IS JUST A TASTE OF WAR. Sustain this kind of horror over long periods of time and you might approximate it. This horror and loss experienced by the families of those who lost there lives is exactly what we now plan to inflict on the families of others. Further, militant Islamic groups (who thrive on conflict and attempts to supress them) and our own government officials have both said that this conflict WILL result in
yet more terrorist attacks on US soil which may range from simple suicide attacks to biological and chemical agents (search the net for reports on these forms of attack for a good idea of whatto expect.) This is the course on which we, as a nation, have headed. Relive in your mind again the terror of the 9-11 attacks and imagine that state for a sustained period of many years. Now, with this in mind, form an opinion about what course of action we should be taking; whether it
is to continue on the course we are now beginning to tread, or
choosing another course of action understand what that course will mean for our nation and the world.

I think it is clear from the above what my opinions on this are
without my stating them. I have been called many things. Cold, Heartless, Sick, Twisted, and even Un-American; the truth is that I love our nation and cannot abide any national course of action which we know will bring harm to both our nation and it's citizens. Inside, my heart cries out for the families of those lost, but weeps in silent rage for the untold numbers who will yet come to harm because of our collective shortsightedness. (I'm sorry. I know I said I wouldn't do this but...) I pray for the families of those we have already lost. I pray for the pain and suffering of those who yet live amid the center of the chaos. I pray for each of us who have been
consumed by fear and anger. I pray for our nation which has chosen to give our attackers exactly what they want. I pray for our enemies, who's suffering has led them to this terrible and foolish action. Most of all, though, I pray for the future...

May courage, wisdom, and love be yours,
Shawn S.
 

Ahmed

I love YaBB 1 Gold!
[They made a mockery out of Islam, which is very shaky as faith anyway, and took the worse possible interpretation of it. There are part in Ku'ran(the moslem bible) which say that each man should donate something to those less happy than he is. Problem is, 80% of islamic countries are so unhappy and miserable they can't find anyone more sorry than they are. So some of them blame the rich west for their misery, which is wrong cuz many people down there are plain lazy and prefer winning things by force(except the emirates, rich as hell, but also peaceful as well).

][/quote]

I agree with u that taleban made a mockery out of Islam, but what I don't understand is why u described islam as shaky faith do base that the misery of the islamic countrys is islam, that's not true, we in the gulf countrys (kuwait, saudia, bahrain, qatar, emarites, oman) people injoy luxury that even americans, euros don't dream of, and this countrys is a islamic countrys, I tell u most of those countrys that claim they claim that they r islamic don't implemant islam is it is and if they do they don't do it in all aspects of there life, if a state implemant islam is it is belive me that there will be no one poor man in it sociaty
 
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