Bush Wins!

An interesting tidbit i picked up from the daily show yesterday.

New York has an fairly large gay population, and they were hit by 9/11.

They voted overwhelmingly democratic (something like 70+% democratic), and against the ban on homosexuality

The sheltered middle America, which have no feasibly terrorist targets, and a low gay population (maybe they live in the closet, beats me...)

They voted overwhelmingly republican, and banned homosexuality.

Kinda funny that the victims of 9/11 voted for Kerry, and everyone else voted for bush eh?

pheonixfenix said:

Kinda funny that the victims of 9/11 voted for Kerry, and everyone else voted for bush eh?

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Last time I checked the victims of 9/11 were Americans. Not just one particuler group. Anyways, if I were you I'd take anything from the Daily Show with a very large grain of salt.

Vampire_Hunter_Bob said:

Last time I checked the victims of 9/11 were Americans.

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That lived in New York.

Why should I take things from the Daily Show with a large grain of salt?
Other than their skits, which are meant to be taken as jokes, the Daily Show actually has an analytical view on the news. If you've ever seen the show, you'd know what I mean.

pheonixfenix said:

That lived in New York.

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And Pearl Harbor was an attack on the people living in Hawaii.

Vampire_Hunter_Bob said:

And Pearl Harbor was an attack on the people living in Hawaii.

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It was

pheonixfenix said:

Other than their skits, which are meant to be taken as jokes, the Daily Show actually has an analytical view on the news. If you've ever seen the show, you'd know what I mean.

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Yeah and Saturday Night Live and Mad TV helped you decide your vote right?

Oh good I found news source that makes things you know clear: http://www.wnbc.com/janesny/index.html

pheonixfenix said:

It was

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The attack on Pearl Harbor was an attack on the United States. I'm sorry but you're just wrong. Pearl Harbor was a military naval base that represents the US not Hawaii. By them attacking the base it was an attack on the country. I don't see why your so willing to say 9/11 was an attack on New Yorkers. Especially since it was an attack on the country as a whole. Then again, a lot of the people that worked in the towers lived in the suburbs.

Vampire_Hunter_Bob said:

The attack on Pearl Harbor was an attack on the United States. I'm sorry but you're just wrong. Pearl Harbor was a military naval base that represents the US not Hawaii. By them attacking the base it was an attack on the country. I don't see why your so willing to say 9/11 was an attack on New Yorkers. Especially since it was an attack on the country as a whole. Then again, a lot of the people that worked in the towers lived in the suburbs.

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My point was that we dont have the right to call ourselves victims of 9/11 unless we truly lost something from the attack. I dont feel I have the right to say I was a victim of 9/11. I didnt lose any family members, friends, nor was I seriously affected in any way. While i sympathize with New Yorkers, I feel that I , and anyone else not seriously affected by 9/11, would be insulting New Yorkers by claiming I was a victim.

The real victims of 9/11 are the ones who lost their father, their mother, their child, or their friends.

Yeah and Saturday Night Live and Mad TV helped you decide your vote right?

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I dont think you would say that if you have actually seen the show.

ranemaka13 said:

I heard Iran's next, since they actually have everything Iraq did not.

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Bush also told the rest of the world he was going to help out the problems in Sudan, but hell I don't see that happening.

pheonixfenix said:

That lived in New York.

Why should I take things from the Daily Show with a large grain of salt?
Other than their skits, which are meant to be taken as jokes, the Daily Show actually has an analytical view on the news. If you've ever seen the show, you'd know what I mean.

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this is true, and it's a very intresting thing about that. I'd say about 80% of Manhattan, maybe more was anti-bush, you know why? maybe it's because we saw no help from the central government, or maybe it's because of anyone, we saw it, we were there, those streets are our home, those streets were a part of us, of anyone who sincerely wanted revenge or some kind of compensation, we are the ones, we never got that. I'm happy there was a landslide victory from New York, maybe the rest of the world can see how the direct victims feel. I'm usually open minded about alot of things, people, sexuality, all of that, but I'm sorry, New Yorkers were the victims of 9/11

Vampire_Hunter_Bob said:

And Pearl Harbor was an attack on the people living in Hawaii.

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hahaha pearl harbor was an attack upon a military base, not upon a civilian building, and the center of new york. no one outside of the tri-state area truly gave a shit about the towers going down.

sorry to come back in such a manner

You two are basicly argueing whether someone getting stabbed in the leg is an attack on the leg or the person.

Majin Tenshi said:

You two are basicly argueing whether someone getting stabbed in the leg is an attack on the leg or the person.

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Not quite. I think we can all agree that this was an attack on the U.S.

However, I feel that the victims of this attack were New Yorkers. In your analogy, the arm should have no right to say that it was a victim, simply because the leg was stabbed.

pheonixfenix said:

My point was that we dont have the right to call ourselves victims of 9/11 unless we truly lost something from the attack.

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That wasn't your point.

New York has an fairly large gay population, and they were hit by 9/11.

They voted overwhelmingly democratic (something like 70+% democratic), and against the ban on homosexuality

The sheltered middle America, which have no feasibly terrorist targets, and a low gay population (maybe they live in the closet, beats me...)

They voted overwhelmingly republican, and banned homosexuality.

Kinda funny that the victims of 9/11 voted for Kerry, and everyone else voted for bush eh?

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Your point was, the victims of 9/11 were all gays that lived in New York and the closet homosexual-homophobics who live in their shelterd suburbs voted for Bush.

And I said:

Last time I checked the victims of 9/11 were Americans. Not just one particuler group.

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And made a pissy comment about the Daily Show.

The real victims of 9/11 are the ones who lost their father, their mother, their child, or their friends.

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So by your standards the families living in sheltered Middle America who lost family members have no right to claim they were a victims. God forbid anyone calls him or her selves a victim because they lost a cousin or close friend.

I dont think you would say that if you have actually seen the show.

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I would have said that till I found the link I saw.

hahaha pearl harbor was an attack upon a military base, not upon a civilian building, and the center of new york. no one outside of the tri-state area truly gave a shit about the towers going down.

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So does that mean no one in the tri-state area gave a shit about the people that lost their lives in the Pentagon? I was upset about what happened that day, so were a lot of members of this board.

Majin Tenshi said:

You two are basicly argueing whether someone getting stabbed in the leg is an attack on the leg or the person.

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It's still an attack on the person.

Vampire_Hunter_Bob said:

That wasn't your point.



Your point was, the victims of 9/11 were all gays that lived in New York and the closet homosexual-homophobics who live in their shelterd suburbs voted for Bush.

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I meant New Yorkers. Sorry if that wasnt clear.

So by your standards the families living in sheltered Middle America who lost family members have no right to claim they were a victims. God forbid anyone calls him or her selves a victim because they lost a cousin or close friend.

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While i sympathize with New Yorkers, I feel that I , and anyone else not seriously affected by 9/11, would be insulting New Yorkers by claiming I was a victim.

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If that family lost a friend or family member in 9/11, then I would consider them a victim as well. However, saying that the entire country was a victim of this attack is a stretch. By a long shot.

And made a pissy comment about the Daily Show.

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I would have said that till I found the link I saw.

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Explain these statements. I dont understand them.

So does that mean no one in the tri-state area gave a shit about the people that lost their lives in the Pentagon? I was upset about what happened that day, so were a lot of members of this board.

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I think almost everyone was upset about the attacks on 9/11. That doesnt mean we were victims of the attack though. Also, I think people in the tri-state area had enough to worry about. I dont blame them if they didnt care too much about the Pentagon.

Vampire_Hunter_Bob said:

So does that mean no one in the tri-state area gave a shit about the people that lost their lives in the Pentagon? I was upset about what happened that day, so were a lot of members of this board.

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It may sound horrible, but many new yorkers seemed to be a bit focused on the towers since we were more direcly affected by that than anything else. Also half of america, espesially middle america has a damned hatred of New York.

and also, Kerry was anti gay marrige too, so why would that sway the homosexuals?

From Louis CK:

Posted: 04 Nov 2004 07:37 am Post subject: A message to all you sad people...

Nov. 3rd 2004, 9:13pm PST, from Flight 1935 from Los Angeles to kansas City...

This is long, but I want YOU to read it. That's right, YOU, the person who woke up on November 3rd and felt sick...

Look, this was a drag. This hurt for all the reasons they've been making fun of us for on CNN. This time we weren't robbed. We were beaten. Some of us feel like we don't know what kind of a country we live in now. We feel like America doesn't like us and we don't like them.
Some of us feel like we are surrounded by a nation full of idiots, jerks, paranoid freaks, heartless narccicists. We're wandering the streets looking into people's faces thinking "was it you? You fucker, did you do it?" But I'm here to give you a different way to look at this. Let me begin by sharing my experience. maybe it will sound farmiliar to some of you....

I went to sleep last night knowing that today I would be on a plane to Kansas City to work another suburban american comedy club for a week. I thought to myself "The last thing I want to do is what I'm about to do, travel though the country and entertain those fucking people who just did this." ... "Those fucking people" is what I thought. Not a thought I like to think about any group of people but there I was thinking it about 51 percent of my countrymates. How did I get there?...
With all this on my mind I climbed into bed and fell into a hard and bitter sleep.

My daughter woke up at about 5:30 am and my incredibly charitable wife got up with her and left me alone to sleep. I never quite got back into deep sleep, though.
I kept going into this twilight and having very vivid dreams of waking up to the news that Ohio's provisional ballots had been counted and that Kerry was president. These dreams seemed very real and candy-like and just as I'd get into them, my conciousness would resurface and I'd realize it wasn't so. It reminded me of a night i spent in a Hoboken jail (long story) where I kept falling asleep on the floor of a commmon cell, dreaming I wasn't there, and waking up to find I was indeed. I started to believe that if I could fall asleep harder, it would actually transport me back to my warm bed, away from the guy with sores who kept trying to take my laceless shoes.

back to November 3rd...
After a while of this I got out of bed and heard the radio saying that the ohio lead had widened. Bush was waiting for Kerry to concede.

I spent the morning playing with my daughter and getting her ready for daycare. This is what's great about having a kid: Every second I spent with her this morning I didn't think about the election one time. She was intermitently a joy and a pain in the ass all morning and in both cases I was completely and thankfully absorbed by her.

As soon as my wife left to take her to daycare, however, I got severely depressed. I browsed the websites that I had been obsessed with over the last several weeks: Drudgereport.com, salon.com, cnn.com, foxnews.com. I've had each of these websites on a tab on my browser every day and I have them refreshing every minute, along with ford.com, where I keep building and rebuilding a mustang I know I can't have.

In the last weeks I have wasted countless hours going around the bases with all these news sites one after the other, desperate for some news or information and feeling my heart skip at the slightest update.
Looking at these sites this morning, however, was really depressing. Because the activity, the movement, the shifting of this from that to there was gone. Salon was stuck on a page of bitterness and warning of an "Unrestrained Bush" druge was stuck on a picture of Bush with a phone to his head with the headline "Is that you, Senator?" , Fox and Cnn just showed that horrible horrible red map that I had spent the night watching grow like a cancer. It was all over. Not only had three weeks of anxiety and euphoria ended in day one of a 4 year nightmare, but my news addiction was being cut off completely and suddenly. I felt like an asshole college student who's been drinking straight from the keg all night hearing that hissing sound from the bottom that says the party is over. God I hate that fucking college student. You know why? Because that little bastard didn't vote!!

Soon after my wife got back, thought, Drudge changed his page. Same picture but now it said "Thanks for your call, Senator." A few minutes later, NPR said that Kerry had called the president and conceded. My wife came in the kitchen to find me standing there, stunned, believing it for the first time and starting to mist over. She just said "I'm done with it already. I've been crying over the newspaper all morning."
I know this sounds horrible but I think it's the worst either of us has felt since 9/11. At least this time we were together. I was 3,000 miles away from her on 9/11. Acually, I don't think it's so terrible to say because I gotta tell you, the thought my mind keeps drifting to is how many people are going to die exactly because of this national decision, because of fear and because of you 9 out of 10 non voting little brats.
Back to my morning...
My friend Dino came over soon after that and we went up to my "office" to work on a movie we're writing together. But we just sat up there feeling sick, wondering aloud what other countries we could live in. The worst part is that Dino and I combined are the laziest person on eight planets, so what we really did was use the election as an excuse not to work. Instead we turned on the TV to watch Kerry's concession speech.

As an electrified and eloguent John Edwards introduced Kerry, standing next to him in Fanuil hall, a place I went to on at least five different class trips, I got that feeling that I know a lot of you had "This can't be real. How can this be really happening right now?" I kept projecting myself twenty four hours backwards, to a time when I didn't conceive of the moment I was now living. It seemed fictional, dreamlike, impossible.
BUT then frankenstein stepped up to the podium and reminded us all exactly how real it was and exactly why it was happening. Because our candidate sucked.

After his shitty speech, where he reminded us what an incredibly long road it was that got him to this dead end, with how many people's dreams he listened to, only to waste their collective time in the end, the CNN pundits rolled out the manditory good reviews and said how he really showed us some true emotion and a bit of himself. What a load of shit. I didn't get that at all. I felt the same as I do every time Bush speaks and the pundits analyze his speeches without saying "I think the president might seriously be retarded." I stand there yelling at the screen "Why are you pretending?" There was only one guy on CNN, however, the bald guy with glasses who does the exit polling, who got it right. He went right at Kerry for saying that he will now work to unite the country. "That's what he was supposed to be doing over the past year and he didn't do it at all. How does he think he's going to do it now?" said the bald guy. He's right. Kerry's not going to work at doing anythign for anyone. He's going to call Al Gore and ask him who his personal appearance agent is. Tone deaf motherfuckers, both of them.

Then it was time for the creep and the president to speak. And you know what? Every word they said was absolutely true. They have a mandate. OF course they do. Enough of America is solidly in their column that they can do what they like. HE gets to say that he has the nation's ear. (well, one ear anyway). Enough of America has rubber stamped his entire agenda, the way he talks, his alarmingly dangerous method of making decisions instead of arriving at them. "America has spoken" he said, and they did and he heard them right.

And then George spoke to me and my wife. "I will do everything I can to deserve your trust. A second term is a fresh opportunity to reach out to the whole country"... wow. It kind of took my breath away. He basically admitted two things "I don't now deserve your trust. I will try to begin doing that." and "I failed to reach out to you. I want to try again." I can't stop thinking about that, that he said that. It's easy for me to dismiss it as a lie but I just can't...

I keep thinking of a guy I knew, Manny, the fellow who owned the comedy Cellar and died last year. Manny was a very conservative guy who loved to argue poitics. I got in many heated exchanges with him. I never agreed with him but I respected the hell out of him. Manny used to say that you have to take people at face value. You can't pretend to know another man's motives and the minute you argue based on things you suspect about someone and can't prove you are wasting your and his (manny's) time. I always think about this and I used to test this theory out as I debated with folks about this election. I found that it's a very sound principal to live by and gives you a much more solid foundation to stand on. Whenever I tried to argue that Bush is a liar and that he and cheney are perpetrating war to feed their oil companies, I would always find my arguments spinning out of control and sinking into factless murk. But I found that if you take Bush at his every word and believe he's doing these things for the reason he says, that he's still wrong and you can prove it in much stronger terms that more people have to admit to. If you say "Bush went to Iraq to avenge his Daddy and to make money and that's evil" you're pretty much done there. You can't prove any of it, and no one that doesn't already agree with you will listen. But if you say "Bush went to Iraq because he believes it's an essencial move in the war on terror, but HE'S WRONG ABOUT THAT" You've just launched an argument that can be sustained and built on facts, reason and wisdom and you might engage one of his supporters and find common ground with them.

Okay, so as Bush made this pledge to deserve our trust and reach out to us, to be "Everybody's president" my election-night weary nerves wanted to piss right in his face. But then I thought of Manny and I guess I found a small window out through which to climb out of this hopeless feeling. I am not saying that I hold out real hope that Bush will change or do what he said that he would do. But I guess I believe that he wants to and will try (and fail). That's not particularly good news but, like I said, it gave me a small window into another frame of mind.
After Bush's speech, we turned off the TV and began our lives again. I felt lighter, better. Watching those two speeches was like we'd just been to a funeral. Everyone should watch those speeches. It brings it all home for you and makes it easier to move on.

I decided to go out and jog, something I haven't done for two weeks. I completely dropped my training because this election just made it impossible to live in the moment, or even in the near future. Even now I felt like I had mollases in my blood stream, but I forced myself to get the shorts on and go. As soon as I hit the sidewalk, I saw all my neighbors standing in front of their houses all shaking their heads and talking about it. I took a deep breath and started running.

I ran 6 miles and it really cleaned me out. I thought about a lot of things. I thought about Kansas City, where I am now headed on an airplane.
I thought about the night before and how I'd had that feeling of dread, looking at my schedual and realizing that I'm going to dive right into this population of Bushy's for the next year. I remembered that feeling, about "Those fucking people" and I was ashamed of it. Really, really ashamed. The fact is that when I booked these gigs, I was excited to do them. I was eager to dive in. I love this job. I love going to all these cities and entertaining all these kinds of people. I like standing by the door and watching them come into the club. I look at all their faces and try to guess what kinds of lives they're living. I look at them from the stage and try to find folks that are really tired in their lives and if I see those tired people laugh very hard it makes me happy. Travelling around America and connecting with Americans has been my job for 20 years. Connecting with them in even greater numbers on television has been my job for over ten.
Why did I now think I was better than them? What did I think changed? Had they changed? Did someone airlift our population out of the country and replace it with a big pile of assholes? Did these people who have always been there, who I never felt were so different from me before, change fundimentally as people? Did I change?

NO. None of that happened. What's more, I suspect that the Bush voters feel the same way about me and every democratic voter "WHo the fuck are these people?" they asked and are asking.
WEll, I'll tell you who we are, and I'll tell you who they are. We're all the same people we've always been. Look to your right, and look to your left. Go ride the bus. Go get on the highway. THEre they are. There we are. Nothing has changed.

You know what has changed? Something inside of us. What changed is the way we look at each other. We look at the people who voted for the other candidate and we think we have nothing in common with them. No one who voted for Bush could possibly share anything with me. They are wrong in the way they vote, eat and shit. They don't even fuck right. Sideways-fucking bush supporters. Don't they know it goes in and out? Not side to side. Fucking Republicans. And look at them eat, with their forks all danglin' like that? Who eats like that?
I have known a lot of repulbicans in my life and I never thought of them as the opposite of me. I always found common ground with them if not politcially then just as people. Manny and I would argue and then share a plate of chicken wings. If he were alive today would that be different?

I always felt that a REpublican is a person like me but with a different slant on things because of life experience or upbringing. But last night I didn't feel that way. I felt like a republican is someone who voted for Bush and how could they possibly do that? A republican is a person who ignores death and has no respect for history, the future and no sense of being a citizen of the world. But this is wrong. All republicans are not carbon copies of bush any more than I'm a carbon copy (good god) of Kerry.

Now, I'm going to make this easier and blame it on somebody. I blame it on George Bush and John kerry. These two guys convinced us that we don't relate to each other. John and George convinced me somehow that I have nothing in common with republicans and that is not true. Why did they do this? Because they didn't have the skill, because they were too lazy to convince people of the other party that they have anything in common with them. Kerry couldn't reach republicans because he is tone-deaf and has never really lived the life of an average american (neither did bush) So his only move was to get every single democrat to believe that republicans (not just bush) are so wrong, that they must hold their nose and vote for him. That's exactly what Bush did (except he also had the added advantage that he could scare the shit out of everyone.)
I personally believe that John Kerry is ten times the man george bush is. I think Bush is a despot, honestly, but last night i caught myself transferring that feeling onto everyone who voted for Bush. What I'm saying is that I think that's a terrible and dangerous mistake and I think a lot of us are innocently making it today, just as the republicans are making it about us (though fromma more cheerful perspective.)

Don't you think that there are shitloads of republicans who held their noses when they voted for Bush just like we did? How many of you were asked "Do you really like Kerry?" and answered "Well, no. But he's the lesser of two evils." Don't you imagine that lots of people voted for bush in the same way? We used to be able to live among people who have different ideals than us without feeling such hate for them. Why not now?

Because they got us all to vote against each other instead of for them. That was not their job. That's not what Clinton did.

Clinton didn't run to the democrats and say "See those guys over there? They suck! COme with me! It's our turn to take america! They can fuck off for four years! Ha ha!

Clinton convinced Democrats that he was their champion and when he had won that battle, he went across the field and convinced republicans that he was their champion too. He didn't beat them, He won them over. and he truly was everybody's president.

He beat Bush alright. He beat the man, not his people. He beat him by convincing a good chunk of bush's own people that he understood them and could do what they want better than Bush could. That's how you run for president. That's how you unite a country (and then fuck interns)

But that's not what we have now. Gore, Bush, Kerry, Edwards, Cheney. They didn't have the talent to do what Bill did. They couldn't bring the two sides together. SO they tried to get their side to file up behind them against the other side in very slightly larger numbers, hoping to be HALF the people's president at the expense of the other half. IT's just not right. You don't get a real president that way. You get half a president. You get a country like today's America, where half the nation feels sick for 8 fucking years, while the other half pounds their chests.
Sorry, but it would have been just like that if Kerry had won too. Imagine if Kerry had carried Ohio and squeaked by with 3.5 million votes less than George? Where would you all be with your "Abolish the electoral college" shit then? And what about the whole south of the country? They'd have spent the next four years feeling like we do today, like they're breathing toxic air in America for four years straight. Like their country was stolen, becuase they'd been told by their president that they are THAT different from Kerry and from anyone who likes him.

Okay, where is this going? I don't know. But I"m going to Kansas city and I am as excited as I've ever been to discover a new city and a new miniculture in america. (i've never been to KC) I made them put me in a hotel downtown so I can really get a feel of the place and it's history. I'm going to meet people, shake their hands, make them laugh, sell them my cd, and ask them on the radio to come and see my shows. If I really meet with and engage any of these Bush aliens, maybe I will find out what I have in common with them and maybe I will, in my small way, be better prepared to help the next candidate I believe in win a race that matters. I think we'd all better think about doing that. It's better than what we're all planning now, which is to put on earmuffs for the next four years and fill the basement with canned food and ammo, so we can really stick it to those bastards with our next divisive, tone deaf dummy.

This, by the way, is just about what's going on in our heads. I have no illusions about what's going to go on in the world after today. I'm scared and apprehensive. I can't even bring myself to imagine how Bush will exploit this opportunity.

But my message here to you, fellow nausea-sufferer, is one of optimism. It's not the kind of optimism that says "everything is going to be fine." it's the kind of optimism that says "Things are tough now and they could get tougher. But you need to find a way to survive this and make it into a positive. you need to learn what life is teaching you right now and use it to create the best future you can. you need to adapt." It's not the kind of optimism that says, "Don't worry. Just sit there and the upswing will come." It's the kind of optimism that says "You may have the power to swing it up yourself. If you have that power, it will be fueled by the lesson you're learning now (if you're truly listening and learning) and by the strength and endurance you are gaining by surviving this moment.
Right now, you're thinking "Oh god, what do I do now?" what I'm saying, is: take the desperation out of your voice, remove the “oh god” part, and just say in a strong voice "What do I do now?" and then answer that question and move on.
Spend the next four years improving America every day by being a better person, treating everyone you meet with respect and civility and by raising a good kid (If you got one.) Those, after all, are the only things any of us can really do.

Thank you for reading.

LCK

ranemaka13 said:

From Louis CK:

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Thanks. I felt better after reading that.

pheonixfenix said:

I meant New Yorkers. Sorry if that wasnt clear.

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Here's a picture of baby Zodd so you know I accept your apology: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v77/Vamphunterbob/Zodd.jpg

If that family lost a friend or family member in 9/11, then I would consider them a victim as well. However, saying that the entire country was a victim of this attack is a stretch. By a long shot.

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I didn't say the entire country, just that Americans were the victims. Thus New Yorkers = Americans. I try to stay away with the calling your selves from the states [Flordanians, Georgians, Marylanders] that stuff should have been done away with after the Civil War.

Explain these statements. I dont understand them.

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The first one was me summarizing what I said then the second one ment I will believe it when I see it on a second source.

Eddie said:

and also, Kerry was anti gay marrige too, so why would that sway the homosexuals?

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Because Bush is a republican. Thus he is automaticly not to be voted for.

Well, basically the point I'm trying to make with the comment about the US 'deserving' 9/11 is tied into the cultural phenomenon I think exists mostly in the north, which is to say, the belief that America and American culture is this loathsome thing. Sure, it's not perfect. Human beings aren't perfect. There's a saying: The perfect is the enemy of the good. Oftentimes trying to achieve perfection nets you worse results than simply trying to do something well. I feel like the grievances you and many other people have with George W. Bush are minor grievances which only seem large when taken out of the larger context for how good things are overall. I'm talking specifically about the New England area here, but it certainly seems like all of the cultural elite is in a perpetually cynical mindset, whether it is about politics, culture, or their own lives (I'm certainly not any better, but I recognize it as a problem).
Demographically, I think this bears out because 'conservative' southern culture is, aside from immigrants, having a disproportionately large number of children, and they are disproportionately represented in the military, fighting for this country overseas. I just don't think it's possible to maintain a civilization without at least a stable population, and without a populace that is willing to fight to preserve it.

Where did you pull that from. I dont think i am divine or elect or that my views should be imposed on everyone.

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You are misinterpreting me. I mean, when I am saying that, "You" in a more general sense meaning the real nutjobs I'm surrounded by. Not you, Shouki Slann. For them, it seems, secularism is a religion unto itself, but they are its chosen people, even though it has no "gods."

I do think you are mistaken in the things you list off. The Patriot act, if I remember correctly, has never even been used... And well, I'm not concerned about 'losing' rights that were already gone -- The Justice Department could already pull this kind of stuff if you were suspected of being a drug dealer. In any case, it doesn't worry me that someone can look at what books I checked out -- Oh no! I was reading Heinlein! Heh.
The president has about zero control over the economy... And he pretty much hasn't done much domestically that I can think of except No-Child Left Behind and other money wasting bills.
Environmentally he's done what, repealed like a lame-duck bill on mercury levels that Clinton signed into law? I guess that's 'bad'. Oh, and the ANWR reserve drilling that never happened, too bad, it would have been worth exploring. He promoted thinning forests in the southwest, which is actually good. All the environmentalist opposition in that area makes it impossible to accomplish basic forest maintenance, so the underbrush builds up and instead we have catastrophic fires like we did a few years ago.
And well, international relations. I presume you've been following the ... largest, or one of the largest, scandals in world history, how the UN's Oil-for-Food program was used to bribe top officials in France, Russia, etc. and funnel money and military equipment into Saddam's pockets? While I don't want to slam the members of other countries for what is corruption in their elite political caste, I don't expect other nations' citizens to necessarily act in our best interests either. I feel like this whole focus on 'alliances' is kind of like the Kellogg-Briand pact. Just because you sign your name to a piece of paper doesn't mean anything. What really matters are the people who are willing to back you up when the fit hits the shan. People have friends, but nations cannot, national interests and goals change.

pheonixfenix said:

Thanks. I felt better after reading that.

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Agreed.

Vampire_Hunter_Bob said:

The first one was me summarizing what I said then the second one ment I will believe it when I see it on a second source.

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Well, the amazing thing about the Daily Show is that the things you see on it are the same things you see on CNN or Fox News (they actually take their clips from these shows). However, they put their own unique perspectives and ideas on these clips, so you wont see these comments on other sources.

I dont have much more to say about your post.

pheonixfenix said:

Well, the amazing thing about the Daily Show is that the things you see on it are the same things you see on CNN or Fox News (they actually take their clips from these shows). However, they put their own unique perspectives and ideas on these clips, so you wont see these comments on other sources.

I dont have much more to say about your post.

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I stopped watching TV a LOOOOOOOOOOONG time ago. Mostly because the only good things on were "Nanny 911".

Eddie said:

It may sound horrible, but many new yorkers seemed to be a bit focused on the towers since we were more direcly affected by that than anything else. Also half of america, espesially middle america has a damned hatred of New York.

and also, Kerry was anti gay marrige too, so why would that sway the homosexuals?

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Here in the Chicago land area we don't "hate" New York.. We see them more as friendly rivals. The ones who hate them and any other big city is not middle america, it's the south. They always have and probably always will. Mind you we voted Democratic..

Anyway, the reason gays voted for Kerry was because he thought of the people before himself. He may not like it but atleast he can see that it's their right and that they should be treated equally.

Denial, I disagree with almost everything you wrote but I have not the energy to argue about it. We could go at it until we died and still probably wouldnt see eye to eye. So, im done. It happened, I cant change it. Im not wasting anymore time arguing over this .

I dont want you people to think I think less of you or something because I disagree with you or some silly shit like that, I dont.

ranemaka13 said:

Right now, you're thinking "Oh god, what do I do now?" what I'm saying, is: take the desperation out of your voice, remove the “oh god” part, and just say in a strong voice "What do I do now?" and then answer that question and move on.

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:)



That about sums it up for me. Not that it will be easy to just move on  but whatever, no point in bitching about this anymore.

i dont think only people that lost a loved one or a friend in 911 were the only people effected by it. in a way it effected the world. im not realy sure about the facts but im sure the stock market took a hit and prices in other products went up. just think of the parents across the land that i making it check to check feeding there kids then seeing a jump in prices im sure that hurt alot of familys, and if bush didnt strike back after 911 we could of been hit again and again untill we did fight back i dont know but i know on 911 it shocked my family hard because alot of my family is in the millitary and they were all activated effecting our everyday life and puting fear in my parents hearts so just because we didnt lose a close friend or loved one on 911 we were still effected, making us victims

Well he never did catch Osama the "mastermind" behind 911 if that means to hit back well he did squat, sure he took Saddam out of power but mmmm he did not have Weapons of Mass Destruction neither he had anything to do with 911.

GreatDoobieMan said:

i dont think only people that lost a loved one or a friend in 911 were the only people effected by it.

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True, but although most were affected by the attack, that doesnt mean that all were victims.

not realy sure about the facts but im sure the stock market took a hit and prices in other products went up. just think of the parents across the land that i making it check to check feeding there kids then seeing a jump in prices im sure that hurt alot of familys

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Compared to some parents finding out their kids are dead, or some kids finding that all thats left of their mother is just half of a rotten leg, i seriously doubt thats significant.

and if bush didnt strike back after 911 we could of been hit again and again untill we did fight back

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The last terrorist attack was in 93, a bombing of the WTC. We probably wont know if we are successful in rooting out the terrorists for another 10 years...they are much more patient than we are.

puting fear in my parents hearts so just because we didnt lose a close friend or loved one on 911 we were still effected

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True, and I live on the 30 minutes from the coast, right next to LA county, a potential terrorist target and a potential nuclear target for North Korea. Everyday hundreds of potential terrorists cross the border into New Mexico, Texas, and Arizona. If a terrorist attacks, they will hit a border state. Its easier, and the best targets are there.

We have more to fear, yet i dont think that makes us victims

i dont know but i know on 911 it shocked my family hard because alot of my family is in the millitary and they were all activated effecting our everyday life and

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That makes your family a victim of the war on terror, not a victim of 9/11.