Author Topic: Serpico Apostle!  (Read 14917 times)

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Offline Wii wii wii

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Re: Serpico Apostle!
« Reply #25 on: April 02, 2005, 11:50:01 PM »
Guts is a resouceful fighter too? I must not have read that part when making my point that Serpico is the best fighter in the whole series. ???

Really!? Wow, that's all very relevent to what I was saying; how could I miss it? Shit, thanks for helping me, I was obviously under the false impression that Serpico hurt Guts with a stick because he's SO STRONG! As a matter of fact, my whole point was that Serpico's super brute strength is what allows him bully Guts so. Boy, was I confused.

Wow, you must be psycic too, since you give no reasons to indicate what brought you to the conclusion that Serpico would completely abandon his only chance to defeat Guts even if he had the strength, speed, and reflexes to rival him. I guess Serpico would just assume that Guts' can't kill Apostles; never happen. I guess Serpico would surrender all of his advantages in favor of dying, excellent observation about the fatalism of his character. At least that's what "I think."

What do the spirits have to say about a possible season 2, BTW? Any thoughts just pop in out of nowhere?

Serpico not Zodd!? That's unpossible! :o
Your missing my point smartass, maybe it would help if you were in fact psychic since you obviously can't read.

What I'm saying, is not that you thought Serpico was more skilled then Guts; you even admitted to the fact that Guts was more skilled or at least had some advantages over Serpico in your own post. What I'm saying is that the examples you used can't really prove Serpico's swordsmanship one way or the other because Guts was already wounded/fatigued/handicapped when the fight started.

Also you didn't mention that Guts was fatigued and nearly dead when the log hit him in your intial post of "Serpico brought down the big guy with a stick."  Or that it hit Guts in a spot that was already in major pain. You shouldn't use one characters exploits against another character who is already nearly dead as a good judge of his power/speed/skill; or at least you could have mentioned Guts condition. Of course I realize you weren't trying to prove that Serpico could just take Guts down with a stick and make it look like Farnese did it any day of the week, but in the condition Guts was in; Isidro could've stopped him!

And, I think there actually is a chance for a second season since Miura said he wouldn't mind doing one when he thinks there is enough Berserk to do it properly. And was it ADV that said they would be willing to pay for it?

P.S. The reason I said Serpico underestimated Guts OR was blinded by love, because on the cliff his intention was obviously killing Guts,  but he ended up having to retreat and saying something to the effect of "What was I thinking? Challenging him?" so hadn't he underestimated Guts having to retreat like that?(he did it pretty well though  :)) or was he just thinking too strongly about Farnese and her wishes when he attacked Guts?
« Last Edit: April 03, 2005, 12:06:29 AM by Wah wah wah »
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Offline Griffith

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Re: Serpico Apostle!
« Reply #26 on: April 03, 2005, 01:20:38 AM »
Your missing my point smartass, maybe it would help if you were in fact psychic since you obviously can't read.

I'm not the only one...

Serpico's sword skill isn't even in question, but Serpico's skill relative to the rest of the world doesn't matter much when going against Guts. So of course I compared the two of them directly; which shouldn't be so hard, since they've dueled twice already. The fact that Serpico held his own and survived, unwounded at that, sets him apart from just about everybody else Guts has fought, even though he isn't similar to Guts at all as a fighter. That should have been clear, and if not, I painstakingly went over the differences in how they fight and their relative strengths and weaknesses, just to avoid something like this. You keep saying you understand I'm not trying to say Serpico is somehow Guts perfect equal... so, what the are you arguing about then?  That Serpico isn't skilled or dangerous, relative to Guts or not? You challenge it all on some throwaway line about Serpico hitting Guts with the branch, which is valid anyway. The entire Holy Iron Chain Knights and Azan still couldn't stop Guts, but Serpico did, end of story. Yes, Guts was in bad shape, it wasn't a duel, and again you say you understand I wasn't saying Serpico could topple Guts with a twig any day of the week, yet you still act like it's a major bone of contention, or that it shouldn't count for anything, or that's it was unfair or some bullshit like that. This isn't a boxing match, I'm not trying to discern Guts and Serpico's "power levels," and I just really don't need obtuse technicalities and arbitrary standards of "judging one's skill" dictated to me, cause I don't give a shit.

So I get a little cranky.

:)

No.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2005, 01:46:50 AM by "Griffith No More!" »

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Serpico Apostle!
« Reply #27 on: April 03, 2005, 12:23:26 PM »
Miura said he wouldn't mind doing one when he thinks there is enough Berserk to do it properly.

That's bullshit though.

Offline Tristram

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Re: Serpico Apostle!
« Reply #28 on: April 04, 2005, 04:35:34 AM »
The fact that Serpico held his own and survived, unwounded at that, sets him apart from just about everybody else Guts has fought, even though he isn't similar to Guts at all as a fighter.

I think that is why Serpico is able to survive against Guts, because he doesn't fight the same way.  Anyone who used brute strength against Guts (and is not Zodd) has died.

Griffith who fought defensively was able to defeat Guts (at first) and now Serpico who fights with agility can hold his own against Guts (from what we've seen so far). 

I cant think of anything more about that, but I hope my point made it through.  Also;  Serpico Apostle?  I dont think it's likely but then again...  we all know how Miura is.

Offline Wii wii wii

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Re: Serpico Apostle!
« Reply #29 on: April 05, 2005, 02:59:53 AM »
I think that is why Serpico is able to survive against Guts, because he doesn't fight the same way.  Anyone who used brute strength against Guts (and is not Zodd) has died.

Griffith who fought defensively was able to defeat Guts (at first) and now Serpico who fights with agility can hold his own against Guts (from what we've seen so far). 

Now obviously this doesn't mean he can beat Guts(in his current state at least), but if he were an apostle those two traits would be magnified typical apostle style. 

I cant think of anything more about that, but I hope my point made it through.  Also;  Serpico Apostle?  I dont think it's likely but then again...  we all know how Miura is.

See that's the point, I didn't realize that Griffith had sort of covered this at first.

But he knows that, he even was "trying to detail" it out.

Obviously, Guts is relying on strength, speed, skill and endurance when he fights. However, Serpico relies only on speed and skill, with his cunning of course; and because of that he is able to use them to greater extremes then Guts can anyway.
 
Of course this doesn't mean Serpico in his present state can defeat Guts, but with the apostle power up and his two main traits greatly enhanced, combined with his cunning. He could probably find a way to give Guts a run for his money.

And Griff, sorry about coming off like an ass before; I hadn't meant to give the impression that I waltzed into the topic with a copy of the manga where they fought in my hand with the intention of attacking your theory to impress everyone. I just thought at first that you hadn't covered those parts.

And I also didn't mean to sound like I was spouting off the "Rules of duelz" or anything, I was just saying with "shouldn't" that a comparison when they were both at their best would be the best choice. But obviously, there isn't a scenario where that has happened so I don't know why I worded it that way.

And the smiley was to Serpico, I felt guilty about fighting against him.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2005, 03:22:37 AM by Wah wah wah »
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Offline Griffith

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Re: Serpico Apostle!
« Reply #30 on: April 05, 2005, 07:11:12 PM »
No problem, sorry I was a crank, but I didn't know what the hell you wanted from me. ;D

Offline Serpico

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Re: Serpico Apostle!
« Reply #31 on: May 03, 2005, 11:13:13 AM »
Serpico would likely be the about the most deadly apostle, as he doesnt fight for the thrill of battle, he fights to kill his enemy. He is the same as Guts in the idea that there is no rules on a battlefield. He is nothing at all like Zodd and Grunbeld who only want to fight the strongest opponents head on. Not to mention he knows all Guts tricks and weaknesses.

Aside from that I can't see him ever sacrificing Farnese, since she is basically all he cares about anyway. If she died then I think Serpico could snap and Isidro would be a sufficient sacrifice. Farnese is more likely to me to ever use a Beherit.

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Serpico Apostle!
« Reply #32 on: May 03, 2005, 12:05:42 PM »
Serpico would likely be the about the most deadly apostle

That's a pretty big assumption. Serpico's goals, interests, motives and personality would be very likely to change if he was "transformed". Not to mention his fighting style itself and the resulting abilities. It's basically pure speculation so I guess it's not that important anyway.

He is nothing at all like Zodd and Grunbeld who only want to fight the strongest opponents head on. Not to mention he knows all Guts tricks and weaknesses.

Well, Zodd doesn't seem to be respecting any kind of rule either, he just does what he wants when he feels like it (he's "honorable" because we didn't see him eating little girls). Fighting head on or shooting arrows from a hill 2 miles away (i.e. like Irvine), whatever works for them. I wouldn't be sure about Serpico knowing all of Guts' tricks and weaknesses either. He's seen him fight a lot since they started travelling together, knows his style well enough, but Guts is a veteran if you compare the two, and his "tricks" usually come with the situation at hands.

If she died then I think Serpico could snap and Isidro would be a sufficient sacrifice.

That's not really the way it works, it has to be the thing he cares the most about, and I don't see Isidro filling that role.

Offline Serpico

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Re: Serpico Apostle!
« Reply #33 on: May 03, 2005, 01:26:08 PM »
That's a pretty big assumption.

Ya, but the skilled fighters almost always make for a seperior class of apostle. Id put him on a lvl with the the apostle leaders in the new band of the hawk. Saying more deadly is just my personal feeling about his cunning.

Quote
Well, Zodd doesn't seem to be respecting any kind of rule either, he just does what he wants when he feels like it

True but I cant see him setting up an opponent in advance like Serpico would. Once in battle anything goes, but the difference is he wants a hard fight. Same thing with Grunbeld who envied Zodd for getting to fight Skullknight, when that is almost the same as suicide by most estimations.

Quote
That's not really the way it works, it has to be the thing he cares the most about, and I don't see Isidro filling that role.

Without Farnese though Serpico really cares for noone specifically. I say Isidro because Serpico has shown on a few occasions he is compasionate for children. With the street urchins he gave money and the boy he defended at the heretic burnings etc. I think if Farnese is dead then the next best thing would work.

Offline CnC

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Re: Serpico Apostle!
« Reply #34 on: May 03, 2005, 05:28:02 PM »
If there was a scenario that would make Serpico an apostle, I imagine it could include Farnese betraying him.
Serpico has always been there for her, but Griffithnomore pointed out that her growth is leaving him behind.  I could see this leading to Farnese stating that she doesn't need him anymore.
Such an act, and the available Beherit, could cause Serpico to sacrifice Farnese.

I really don't see too many other alternatives to the Serpico-apostle theory...
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Offline Aazealh

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Re: Serpico Apostle!
« Reply #35 on: May 03, 2005, 06:30:34 PM »
Ya, but the skilled fighters almost always make for a seperior class of apostle.

Depends, look at Rochine, she put up quite a fight against Guts, he was really half-dead afterwards, and she wasn't anything like a warrior. In the same vein, we don't know whether the current leaders of the Neo Hawks were skilled fighters before they became apostles.

Saying more deadly is just my personal feeling about his cunning.

Well, to re-state what I said, becoming an apostle wouldn't just mean more speed and power. The Count didn't enjoy torturing and eating people before he sacrificed his wife, yet after that... It has already been said, but what makes Serpico's strength, the reason why he survived Guts while others died, is that he knows his own limitations, and his opponents' strengths. He sets up "traps" because he knows he can't confront his enemies directly, and when he judges it necessary (he certainly didn't bother to plan anything while fighting trolls).

Now apostles are arrogant. When you can crush a rock without any kind of effort, you don't feel like planning stuff in advance and waiting for hours in hiding just to kill a "mere human". Being stronger and faster, what is to fear? The Count was a nobleman, educated and leader of his own small army. Basic strategy such as what Serpico displayed until now wouldn't have been hard to pull out for such a man. Yet he just slimed around slamming Guts against walls, until he got killed. See what I mean?

I won't start about Serpico's dirty methods being the only scenaristic way for him to put up an interesting fight with Guts as a simple human, which wouldn't be the case if he became an apostle, because that would be no fun.

Same thing with Grunbeld who envied Zodd for getting to fight Skullknight, when that is almost the same as suicide by most estimations.

He was just being overconfident, typical apostle speech.

Without Farnese though Serpico really cares for noone specifically.

You hit the point. Serpico without Farnese is the least likely person to become an apostle, because he would have nothing to gain that would be of interest to him (except for revenge maybe?), and nothing worth of sacrificing. Being nice with kids isn't enough, IMHO.

I really don't see too many other alternatives to the Serpico-apostle theory...

I pretty much agree. Actually I planned to write that 4 hours ago when I started replying but I took quite a pause in the meantime...

Offline Serpico

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Re: Serpico Apostle!
« Reply #36 on: May 03, 2005, 07:35:39 PM »

Serpico without Farnese is the least likely person to become an apostle, because he would have nothing to gain that would be of interest to him (except for revenge maybe?), and nothing worth of sacrificing. Being nice with kids isn't enough, IMHO.


Mmmm, ya I actually agree with you on that now that I'm thinking about it. He isnt really the revenge type so much as Guts and most likely whomever killed her would be killed soon after anyway. He might just kill himself to die with her.

For the other scenario I don't think he would sacrifice her either even if she betrayed him (growing and or marrying someone else) I think Serpico can get by with that. If he wanted her dead he could just kill her, and if he wantered her for himself he could have taken her already. I think he just wants to look after her. Either way I dont see where he would ever feel it neccassary to have apostle power.

If by chance Serpico did though I still think he would surpass other "grunt" type apostles and even Roshinu and Wylde who had considerable power like you said. Might be wrong on this, but I think Zodd, Grunbeld, and the Lancer Captain were high regarded knights prior to activating their Beherits. They most likely require Guts to use his Berserker strength for decisive victory. I think an apostle Serpico would too, provided his transformation doesnt warp his mind as you said. Like the Lancer Capt. and Grun still keep their cool and use very skillfull technique.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2005, 07:39:55 PM by Serpico »

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Serpico Apostle!
« Reply #37 on: May 03, 2005, 08:02:15 PM »
He might just kill himself to die with her. [...]

(growing and or marrying someone else) I think Serpico can get by with that. If he wanted her dead he could just kill her, and if he wantered her for himself he could have taken her already. I think he just wants to look after her.

Yeah, that's mostly what I think, too. Killing her could be as much of a problem to him as it was to the Count, however.

Might be wrong on this, but I think Zodd, Grunbeld, and the Lancer Captain were high regarded knights prior to activating their Beherits.

There's no confirmed information regarding that. We don't know anything about Zodd's past as a human, and there are legends surrounding Locus and Grunberd, but they don't tell us anything about them as humans either (it is unclear if their legendary accomplishments were achieved as apostles or not).

Like the Lancer Capt. and Grun still keep their cool and use very skillfull technique.

Well, they both got quite furious given the right opportunity though ;D, but I see what you mean.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2005, 08:27:31 AM by Aazealh »

Offline Griffith

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Re: Serpico Apostle!
« Reply #38 on: May 03, 2005, 10:48:50 PM »
Feel it nessesary to have Apostle power? When did it become like buying a new car? When God Hand comes a calling, the "victim" in question is usually under duress and not in their regular state of mind. In any case, Void is a great salesmen, "Friend, if you're serious about making your dreams come true, these wings of darkness will make your ride to the castle smooth as silk. And they handle great too."

Oviously, I think Serpico's a prime candidate for the Apostle experience.

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Serpico Apostle!
« Reply #39 on: May 04, 2005, 08:14:27 AM »
Feel it nessesary to have Apostle power? When did it become like buying a new car? When God Hand comes a calling, the "victim" in question is usually under duress and not in their regular state of mind.

That precise line isn't the point (well, I think), though I agree that the formulation is inappropriate. I prefer the way I put it in my previous post(s). I also changed the quote in my last post to something that reflects my opinion a bit more accurately.

Oviously, I think Serpico's a prime candidate for the Apostle experience.

He's a prime candidate as long as Farnese lives though, we were speculating about a hypothetic situation where she would have died already.

I'm with CnC as I said earlier in that I don't really see any other way for Serpico to become an apostle than Farnese "betraying" him in a really vicious manner. Serpico's (member) point was I think that simply marrying some other guy wouldn't be enough for Serpico (character) to cross the line, as he would see advantages in that as well (safety for her) for example.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2005, 08:34:07 AM by Aazealh »

Offline Griffith

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Re: Serpico Apostle!
« Reply #40 on: May 04, 2005, 09:26:09 PM »
I'm with CnC as I said earlier in that I don't really see any other way for Serpico to become an apostle than Farnese "betraying" him in a really vicious manner. Serpico's (member) point was I think that simply marrying some other guy wouldn't be enough for Serpico (character) to cross the line, as he would see advantages in that as well (safety for her) for example.

I think she already has "betrayed" him enough for his own purposes, and he's already rebelling against her wishes and essentially betraying her.

All he needs now are some dire times where he can reflect and really brood over these things... and what do you know; he's fighting the most dangerous guy in the World! ;D

Who, it so happens, is responsible for destroying his own little exclusive life with Farnese and taking her away from him.

C'mon, he burned his own mother at the stake; that's got to mean something! ^_^;

And another interesting thing; just because he sacrifices Farnese, doesn't mean that she has to die, especially with Guts and Schierke there. Serpico Apostle, and Farnese alive to see it, would be the best of both worlds. Not to mention all the new Band of the Brand possibilities. =)

There's also plenty of other people of his flesh running around there... he may not love them like he does Farnese, but I'm sure he has to feel something for Daddy, and positive or not, you know how God Hand loves a good family sacrifice.

Or maybe Isidro! ;D

Or I'm done.

Offline CnC

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Re: Serpico Apostle!
« Reply #41 on: May 05, 2005, 01:01:45 AM »
I think she already has "betrayed" him enough for his own purposes, and he's already rebelling against her wishes and essentially betraying her.

I think he's doing what he's doing because he believes it to be in her best interest, which in a twisted way is his best interest.

C'mon, he burned his own mother at the stake; that's got to mean something! ^_^;

Mother's mental state and whatever emotional ties Serpico had to her aside, he did it for/with Farnese.  This would be more fuel to the fire if she dismisses him.

And another interesting thing; just because he sacrifices Farnese, doesn't mean that she has to die, especially with Guts and Schierke there. Serpico Apostle, and Farnese alive to see it, would be the best of both worlds. Not to mention all the new Band of the Brand possibilities. =)

I actually thought about this too, if Guts was present to save her or something that would be one hell of a plot development.  However if there was some ratio between the level of power in becoming an apostle and the level of sacrifice one must give, I could see Serpico sacrificing the whole Vandimion family, or at least Pops.
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Re: Serpico Apostle!
« Reply #42 on: May 05, 2005, 08:28:56 AM »
I think she already has "betrayed" him enough for his own purposes, and he's already rebelling against her wishes and essentially betraying her.

Well, Serpico is the one who rejected her when she entrusted herself to him. Of course, he had a clear reason to do so but she didn't know of it. So she was deeply hurt. Still and forever, she is the one rejected by him as long as he doesn't tell her everything.

Therefore, I don't see that she has betrayed him. She just follows her own purposes regardless of Serpico. And it seems to her it's what she should do and what he wants from her, I think.

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Serpico Apostle!
« Reply #43 on: May 05, 2005, 08:34:33 AM »
I think she already has "betrayed" him enough for his own purposes, and he's already rebelling against her wishes and essentially betraying her.

Well, that's what Serpico (member) meant I think and that's why I agreed with him, saying that Farnese "betraying" Serpico by just evolving wouldn't be enough of a triggering event to have him sacrifice her.

Otherwise I'm with CnC again about him doing stuff in her best interest, his mind concealing the fact that it's in fact his best interest and not hers. And yeah, it could be said that he's betraying her as her servant right now.

All he needs now are some dire times where he can reflect and really brood over these things...

I actually wanted to put that in my previous post but didn't find a satisfying way to bring it up, that he might need time to take his decision, his feelings eating at his will slowly.

And another interesting thing; just because he sacrifices Farnese, doesn't mean that she has to die, especially with Guts and Schierke there. Serpico Apostle, and Farnese alive to see it, would be the best of both worlds. Not to mention all the new Band of the Brand possibilities. =)

Wow, brilliant. Never occurred to me. That would indeed be quite something... New board slogan: "Great speculations that aren't lame, Only on SK.net". ;D

he may not love them like he does Farnese, but I'm sure he has to feel something for Daddy, and positive or not, you know how God Hand loves a good family sacrifice.

Yeah, thought of that possibility too, but I don't know, I just don't feel like it.

Offline Trashcan

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Re: Serpico Apostle!
« Reply #44 on: May 31, 2005, 02:15:07 AM »
To become an apostle requires the same three things(in confluence) that a murder does: Means, Motive, and Opportunity.

Means: Serpico would rquire a Beherit in order to summon Godhand and put in the work order to get remade as an apostle.

Motive: The desire simply to stay alive could be sufficient-if it came down to bleeding to death from the wounds Guts inflicts on him during this duel, or simply letting go of someone who is already slipping away from him, the choice might not be so hard to make.

Opportunity: In case there is anyone new to the board who hasn't thoroughly perused this thread (shame on you!), Guts is carrying a Beherit around with him.

We have here a near-perfect scenario for Serpico's transformation currently playing itself out in the manga. Puck's "wild fox" remark in Episode 256 almost cements the deal. Gentlemen, prepare your Miuramizers...
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Offline Smith

Re: Serpico Apostle!
« Reply #45 on: May 31, 2005, 06:52:29 AM »
I still dont think this is gonna happen...
It piss me off when I see weaklings, it make me want to crush them

Offline EndlessSky

Re: Serpico Apostle!
« Reply #46 on: May 31, 2005, 03:37:28 PM »
You never know......seems anything can happen in Berserk..

Offline Rage Incarnate

Re: Serpico Apostle!
« Reply #47 on: June 01, 2005, 02:15:41 AM »
Motive: The desire simply to stay alive could be sufficient-if it came down to bleeding to death from the wounds Guts inflicts on him during this duel, or simply letting go of someone who is already slipping away from him, the choice might not be so hard to make.

"This isn't a great desire but rather your overattachment to life." and "We cannot kill him.  He is not your mortal enemy and you have no personal hatred towards him."  Slan's words (from memory) during the count's encounter with the God Hand.  In other words the desire to stay alive means jack squat to a summoning and, as illustrated by the count, it is sometimes necessary.  You need to have something wrong with you or your state of mind, like total despair, to sacrifice someone you care deeply about so your "motive" is really unlikely.

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Opportunity: In case there is anyone new to the board who hasn't thoroughly perused this thread (shame on you!), Guts is carrying a Beherit around with him.

No beherit shown, as of yet, has created two apostles so this is surmised but it could also be that each beherit it made specifically for use by one person.

Anyway, no matter how unlikely I admit that it is a possibility.
There's one simple rule here, and it's universal: you shalt not be stupid. It really shouldn't be too hard to follow.  - Aazealh
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Offline Aazealh

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Re: Serpico Apostle!
« Reply #48 on: June 01, 2005, 06:54:18 AM »
To become an apostle requires the same three things(in confluence) that a murder does: Means, Motive, and Opportunity.

Well, the means/opportunity are the same thing here, given the nature of beherits... It's really not just like you need to be sure you will have it handy when the time comes, or that you'll unfortunately lack one when you're ready to sacrifice. It's always in the hands of its "true" owner when it needs to be.

And even the "motive" can be considered part of both the "opportunity" and "means" to become an apostle... So in a word I'm not sure this is the best analogy.

We have here a near-perfect scenario for Serpico's transformation currently playing itself out in the manga.

He still lacks a motive/opportunity/mean or a trigger if you want, and there's hardly a way to see it coming (or not) for sure before it actually does.

Puck's "wild fox" remark in Episode 256 almost cements the deal.

Yeah, it's not like Serpico was ever compared to a fox before... ::)

You need to have something wrong with you or your state of mind, like total despair, to sacrifice someone you care deeply about so your "motive" is really unlikely.

If Farnese were to leave him, he could just want to make the pain disappear, like the Count did. It's not like there's a strict procedure to follow.

No beherit shown, as of yet, has created two apostles

Well, Niko's beherit did, in the DC game. The Count also used his beherit twice, and now Guts possesses it. From all the discussions about beherits that take place in the manga, it's rather safe to assume that beherits can be used by different persons.

Offline C

Re: Serpico Apostle!
« Reply #49 on: June 01, 2005, 09:54:25 PM »
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Puck's "wild fox" remark in Episode 256 almost cements the deal.

A little while back Puck turned into Yoda. Does that mean Guts will find a lightsabre?  :o

As far as Serpico having a motive, I don't really think so. He actually likes how Guts has turned Farnese around in her life, giving her a purpose, making her happy and making her feel usefull. In fact he says this, thanks to Puella who so ever nicely translated  ;D:

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Serpico: You're the man who I can't help but appreciate.
I've felt helpless with the fact that Madam Farnese has been changed because of you but I've also been happy with that.

Right after he says this:

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That's why I shouldn't allow it.
It shouldn't happen....!!

Which shows his pride taking over and feeling helpless like he stated before. He likes that Farnese is changing, but he only wishes he was the cause. If this fight does continue to the end, which I don't think it will like most others, I think Guts would finally win even in his superiorly disadvantaged state. If Guts did land a mortal wound, I believe Serpico would ask him to watch after Farnese, and end it with a "Thank you".  8)

 - C

PS. Oh yeah, and no apostle.  :D