Author Topic: The Moonlight Boy  (Read 84005 times)

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Offline spineylamb

Re: The Moonlight Boy
« Reply #175 on: May 18, 2011, 11:04:43 PM »
He hasn't said a single word in person (even though he's spoken in his light form), and it seems he understands at least basic ideas (getting someone's attention, the need to protect, when there's danger, he's even done some warning in the past).

If only he would (or could? maybe the spirit form is more of a telepathy and not a verbal language that needs to be learned) speak, I can just imagine the questions  :serpico:

Also, I wonder if he'll ever get (or reveal?) a name.

Offline Gobolatula

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Re: The Moonlight Boy
« Reply #176 on: May 19, 2011, 12:28:58 AM »
Also, I wonder if he'll ever get (or reveal?) a name.
Guts and Casca haven't named him yet.

Offline Ramen4ever

Re: The Moonlight Boy
« Reply #177 on: May 19, 2011, 04:21:46 AM »
He hasn't said a single word in person (even though he's spoken in his light form), and it seems he understands at least basic ideas (getting someone's attention, the need to protect, when there's danger, he's even done some warning in the past).

If only he would (or could? maybe the spirit form is more of a telepathy and not a verbal language that needs to be learned) speak, I can just imagine the questions  :serpico:


It's actually kind of interesting that Guts didn't associate the Moonlight boy's communication in his astral form, with the Demon child when he communicated with Guts in the past, ie warning Guts of the impending danger for Casca.
There are plenty of explanations that could account for it. But without a connection, the reasons don't really matter.

Imo it's actually better that the Moonlight boy not speak outside of his astral form to Guts. Questions only lead to potential situations. and I'm going to step on a speculative limb here but it may be in the best interests of the child and his parents that he not talk or reveal anything. The information is volatile for Guts, Casca is unlikely to even understand or react, and the rest of the group would only ask questions for information. If this is the only way for the child to be with his parents at the moment, then there's no need for the child to disrupt the current situation. Being with his parents, every full moon(at least while they're by the ocean) allows for him to not only protect his parents, like the child's done in the past. But to maybe bridge the gap that's formed between Guts and Casca, personally I think it's interesting that Miura subtly did that back at the beach house when he first appeared. And I'm hoping that it comes back later, especially after Casca regains herself. (And no, I'm not saying the child is deliberately trying to bridge the gap, but his very presence could be a factor regardless.)

Offline The Count

Re: The Moonlight Boy
« Reply #178 on: November 12, 2014, 12:35:49 AM »
Don't you think it's a little silly that a bonafide God Hand like Griffith is being spiritually outmuscled/morphing into a child? Although i can see him projecting the boys soul so he can see his parents the same way he has those soldiers souls have their farewells. But i question the range of this ability, unless he was there with Zodd in the first encounter(which would be reasonable since he was there at Vritanis), then for the second encounter i can buy Griffith needn't be nearby as the Ganishka Tree allows him to project all over the planet. The boy then must return to Griffith, it would be interesting aswell when Guts meets up with Griffith and finds out his sons soul lies within his archenemy, and his blade that damages the very soul, would have to kill his son if he wishes to kill Griffith. The hole in this theory though, is why Guts(nor Skull Knight) didn't quickly sense the tremendous essence of a God Hand member in the vicinity?

And to the "I think the boy takes over Griffith during full moons", when Griffith retrieves Princess Charlotte, her maid and the bed, there's a page with a Massive and clear full moon in the background, so that should clear that out of the picture

Another theory could be that Griffith didn't like the feeling he had in him after meeting Guts at Godo's place, so he removed the childs soul/ethereal body and maybe Zodd was there only to drop him off, from there the child is like it was before, only shows up during a full moon, if he's simply an ethereal body it still makes sense as schierke said "It's the night when does associated with the astral world run rampant", but this feels fairly weak in comparison to the drama that will ensue should the child reside in Griffith

Guts child has always had some telapathic abilities e.g when he feeds images to guts and tells him "danger, when the sky falls at the holy ground, blind sheep gather and erect a pillar of fire, hurry, quickly" so the moonlight child could be talking to him in a similar way, just projecting his intentions and that's how Guts' mind interpets/translates, he might not even know how to actually speak, although that prophecy he gave Guts could have been pulled straight out of the Idea Of Evil, as the fetus is infused with God Hand "genes"(for lack of a better word) and can probabley predict like the rest of the God Hand

The kid will be a major(MAJOR) player in the story


 

Offline Walter

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Re: The Moonlight Boy
« Reply #179 on: November 12, 2014, 02:16:58 AM »
Hello and welcome to the forum! I always enjoy revisiting these old topics, but most of these threads have already been pulled.

Don't you think it's a little silly that a bonafide God Hand like Griffith is being spiritually outmuscled/morphing into a child?

Not if a result of the merging meant they shared the same power. When the child was in control, the ability he used to tame the Beast of Darkness was pretty fantastic (also worthy of note, the episode title during that feat was "Superior Being.")

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Although i can see him projecting the boys soul so he can see his parents the same way he has those soldiers souls have their farewells.

Casca was able to touch and hold the child. That's fundamentally different from astral projection and what Griffith does with souls.

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But i question the range of this ability, unless he was there with Zodd in the first encounter(which would be reasonable since he was there at Vritanis), then for the second encounter i can buy Griffith needn't be nearby as the Ganishka Tree allows him to project all over the planet.

I don't think you've thought this all the way through.

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when Guts meets up with Griffith and finds out his sons soul lies within his archenemy, and his blade that damages the very soul,

That's an over embellishment of the damage the Dragon Slayer does. It inflicts wounds on an astral body.

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The hole in this theory though, is why Guts(nor Skull Knight) didn't quickly sense the tremendous essence of a God Hand member in the vicinity?

It's a good question, but it could just be that when the child is in control of the body, which originally belonged to him, that there is no trace of Griffith in those moments.

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And to the "I think the boy takes over Griffith during full moons", when Griffith retrieves Princess Charlotte, her maid and the bed, there's a page with a Massive and clear full moon in the background, so that should clear that out of the picture

Nah, look more closely at the moon. :void:

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Another theory could be that Griffith didn't like the feeling he had in him after meeting Guts at Godo's place, so he removed the childs soul/ethereal body and maybe Zodd was there only to drop him off, from there the child is like it was before, only shows up during a full moon, if he's simply an ethereal body it still makes sense as schierke said "It's the night when does associated with the astral world run rampant", but this feels fairly weak in comparison to the drama that will ensue should the child reside in Griffith

Not just weak, but rather nonsensical. It's the child's body that Griffith possessed, not the other way around.

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although that prophecy he gave Guts could have been pulled straight out of the Idea Of Evil, as the fetus is infused with God Hand "genes"(for lack of a better word) and can probabley predict like the rest of the God Hand

It wasn't as much of a prophecy as that the child intercepted the mass dream from the Falcon of Light and gave Guts specific instructions after it.
:femto: :slan: :ubik:

Offline The Count

Re: The Moonlight Boy
« Reply #180 on: November 12, 2014, 10:31:23 AM »
Hello and welcome to the forum! I always enjoy revisiting these old topics, but most of these threads have already been pulled.
Thank you and good to be here :)

Not if a result of the merging meant they shared the same power. When the child was in control, the ability he used to tame the Beast of Darkness was pretty fantastic (also worthy of note, the episode title during that feat was "Superior Being.")
The episode is Titled "Superhuman(Jnanin)" in the Dark Horse installment, and basically from what i've gathered Jnanin is a vast knowledge of the supernatural, it's a little more indepth so i'll just post the link and you can read for yourself and see that it fits pretty well in with berserk universe
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jnana

This adds some consideration to Schierke's theory that the boy is some emmisary or king Hanafubuku himself, im sure it could be made sense of but it doesn't explain Zodd or the uncanny resemblance to Casca, which is why we are all more or less convinced it must be Guts child

But the boy's power is very similar to very powerful magi, as Schierke once said, powerful enough magi can even fly and that boy to have gotten up to those "branches", that could have taken the magi ability of flight or the flight ability is those branches as we see him in a sense, "fly" along the branches i.e the "secret paths" that powerful beings like king hanafubuku are capable of using(further giving some credence to Schierke's theory)

Although with me, along with the majority think it's more likely it is Guts child but also to go along with my own theory(s), I think he gained his knowledge either from being intuned with the Idea Of Evil/a deep layer of the astral world or as he lay alongside Griffith/Femto's spirit

And if he is seperated from Griffith, maybe now he is simply gifted with tremendous knowledge of the trinity - Physical/Astral/Origin which allows him to do most of the things that usually only the most powerful magi should be able to do but is also pure of Griffiths stain(this could also still make perfect sense even if he's still a part of Griffith but becomes pure when Griffith "projects" him as all parts of Griffiths evil spirit now remain or have all returned to the source)

Casca was able to touch and hold the child. That's fundamentally different from astral projection and what Griffith does with souls.
I dont know how you can say this with certainty, there is seemingly alot of touching going on
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And like it has been said many times, the Astral world is the world of the dead. Isidro asks (quoting Dark Horse)"Little complicated but it's ghosts right? schierke responds "Those are the ethereal bodies that your ethereal body percieves"
(I usually read the Dark Horse version but, but in this case the translations have little difference so shouldn't hurt)
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Basically proving you can touch these human ethereal(ghost) bodies if it is sensed strongly enough

I don't think you've thought this all the way through.
Why? The boys spirit(perhaps what i've been meaning to say this entire time) lies within Griffith, and as with the ghosts he's not in some other room when he's projecting. there has been no indication that he can give form to the souls in the otherside of the planet. But, i can see Miura rationalize it all with the Ganishka tree, esspecially since it caused the world to sink into a deeper realm of the astral world, maybe now the childs spirit can roam more freely, Griffith need'nt project him so much as simply let him "out". And Griffith did show up for the battle at Vritanis did he not? Unless you mean why he wasn't sensed, which is something i've admitted is the hole in the theory

That's an over embellishment of the damage the Dragon Slayer does. It inflicts wounds on an astral body.
Dont think i've ever read "astral body", i've read "ethereal body" that roam the "astral world"
and as i've shown above, ethereal = spirit(perhaps soul was the wrong word, but astral world is just another way of saying spirit world) and thus astral = ethereal in your case

It's a good question, but it could just be that when the child is in control of the body, which originally belonged to him, that there is no trace of Griffith in those moments.
As mentioned above, I believe the boy is absolved of Griffiths stains when he is projected(or was released) as the evil returned to the source and is there to stay

Nah, look more closely at the moon. :void:
What's wrong with the moon?
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Not just weak, but rather nonsensical. It's the child's body that Griffith possessed, not the other way around.
I dont believe it's beyond the realm of possibility that a being like Griffith can't remove the Spirit of a vessel that yes, once belonged to someone else but his spirit is clearly the dominant force here thus his appearence and thus the body basically belongs to him now. We dont need to act like we have the facts here and understand the extent of the abilities of a member of the God Hand

Also Flora did mention that some dead spirits wander the interstice but they eventually accept their deaths and move on or become unable to maintain their ethereal bodies and thus pass away into a deeper layer

The boys spirit is much more powerful than those of the average wondering human souls and that's a given, so i dont see the absurdity

It wasn't as much of a prophecy as that the child intercepted the mass dream from the Falcon of Light and gave Guts specific instructions after it.
The mass dreams had nothing to do with Casca or her being tied to a pillar of fire etc(pretty specific indeed) nor was it worded cryptically like the child said it, it was very Skull Knight/God Hand-ish style of telling someone something.
Here's the only "mass dream" i can remember relating to this particular event, correct me if im wrong(goes without saying though really)
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Offline Delta Phi

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Re: The Moonlight Boy
« Reply #181 on: November 12, 2014, 12:26:17 PM »
This is going to be good  :beast:

I won't comment on the deeper parts of your queries since Walter or Aaz will most undoubtedly do a finer job than I will, but...

What's wrong with the moon?
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You honestly can't see that the moon isn't full? Because it's not. Nearly there, but no, that's not a full moon.

Also, you might want to avoid posting scanlations here. It's against the rules. Typically, users will post the panel that they are wanting to reference with the text removed, much like quoting in a term paper (e.g. you wouldn't quote an entire chapter from a book when you need one sentence).

Offline The Count

Re: The Moonlight Boy
« Reply #182 on: November 12, 2014, 01:08:36 PM »
I honestly hadn't, but i see it now

Anyway, the more i think about it the more sense it would make if Griffith did just morph into the Moonlight Child, the idea of Griffith being all sneaky is alot sillier than my initial idea of him morphing when he can morph into Femto, seemingly it's a matter of controlling your ego,  he simply subsides his presence and the Moonlight Child takes over or at the full moon the child takes over w/e, makes more sense than the projection thing and a better story than the just removing him

Plus i just remembered Griffith summoned the wind vs Ganishka, so he seemingly must have control over the elementals, the guy really is all powerful
« Last Edit: November 12, 2014, 05:06:22 PM by The Count »

Offline Aazealh

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Re: The Moonlight Boy
« Reply #183 on: November 16, 2014, 03:22:42 PM »
Hi "The Count",

I know you've changed your mind about what's the likeliest scenario here, but I wanted to address a few of the things you've said.

Don't you think it's a little silly that a bonafide God Hand like Griffith is being spiritually outmuscled/morphing into a child?

Considering how Femto came to be incarnated, there's really nothing silly about it. The body was originally that of the boy. And that boy had been born in the Interstice and had lived there for years prior to that event. Furthermore, we already know that the boy can force Griffith to act without his consent from the scene where he saved his mother in volume 22. And then there's the fact that the full moon dramatically boosts magical power that explains why it happens then.

P.S. "A bonafide God Hand"? Are there fake members of the God Hand?

Although i can see him projecting the boys soul so he can see his parents the same way he has those soldiers souls have their farewells.

That makes no sense whatsoever. Griffith has no reason to indulge the desires of the boy, and he's not "projecting" the kid's soul anyway. He appears with a corporeal body and we also get to see his astral body (one that bears some resemblance to Griffith...). Beyond that, Griffith is also not "projecting" the souls of the dead, at best he calls them to him and allows them to be seen.

although that prophecy he gave Guts could have been pulled straight out of the Idea Of Evil, as the fetus is infused with God Hand "genes"(for lack of a better word) and can probabley predict like the rest of the God Hand

At that time the boy just clued Guts in on what was going on. He also doesn't have "God Hand genes" and isn't related to the Idea of Evil as far as we know. He was "just" corrupted by evil while in the womb.

The kid will be a major(MAJOR) player in the story

Yeah, I came to that conclusion back in 2004.

The episode is Titled "Superhuman(Jnanin)" in the Dark Horse installment

Dark Horse's translation is inaccurate. "Superior Being" or "Super Being" is more correct.

This adds some consideration to Schierke's theory that the boy is some emmisary or king Hanafubuku himself, im sure it could be made sense of but it doesn't explain Zodd or the uncanny resemblance to Casca, which is why we are all more or less convinced it must be Guts child

But the boy's power is very similar to very powerful magi, as Schierke once said, powerful enough magi can even fly and that boy to have gotten up to those "branches", that could have taken the magi ability of flight or the flight ability is those branches as we see him in a sense, "fly" along the branches i.e the "secret paths" that powerful beings like king hanafubuku are capable of using(further giving some credence to Schierke's theory)

Although with me, along with the majority think it's more likely it is Guts child but also to go along with my own theory(s), I think he gained his knowledge either from being intuned with the Idea Of Evil/a deep layer of the astral world or as he lay alongside Griffith/Femto's spirit

Really I think it's all pretty simple: when Femto took over the boy's corporeal body, some of his power was also imparted to him. And I don't think there's any real doubt that the boy is Guts & Casca's child.

the trinity - Physical/Astral/Origin

Trinity? Origin? :???:

I dont know how you can say this with certainty, there is seemingly alot of touching going on

Walter's point is that the boy has a body of flesh. The difference between the two is quite obvious.

the Ganishka tree, esspecially since it caused the world to sink into a deeper realm of the astral world

I think it would be more exact to say that the astral world was brought into the corporeal world and not the other way around, given how it was depicted in the manga.

Dont think i've ever read "astral body", i've read "ethereal body" that roam the "astral world"
and as i've shown above, ethereal = spirit(perhaps soul was the wrong word, but astral world is just another way of saying spirit world) and thus astral = ethereal in your case

"Soul" and "spirit" do indeed refer to different things in the Berserk world. As for what words are proper between "astral body" or "ethereal body", I think both are fine. Schierke often uses the terms "body of light" or "luminous body" to refer to what she does when her astral self leaves her corporeal body.

The mass dreams had nothing to do with Casca or her being tied to a pillar of fire etc(pretty specific indeed)

You don't get it. Guts had the Falcon dream in volume 17. For him, it took the form of Casca being burned to death, and her death signifying the return of the Falcon. The dream differed for each person: The king, Zodd, Guts... Everyone in Midland had their own special experience. Anyway, right as Guts woke up from that dream, the boy warned him that Casca was in danger. Maybe he had had the dream as well, or maybe he knew about it because he could feel things moving in the astral world. But either way, for Guts the dream had everything to do with Casca and her being burned to the stake. His son just helped him understand that it wasn't a simple nightmare.

Offline The Count

Re: The Moonlight Boy
« Reply #184 on: November 17, 2014, 08:46:48 PM »
Right you are "Aazealh", good post

P.S. "A bonafide God Hand"? Are there fake members of the God Hand?
Because he vanishes in the sunlight despite having a physical body, apostles dont have any problem bathing in the sunlight

That makes no sense whatsoever. Griffith has no reason to indulge the desires of the boy, and he's not "projecting" the kid's soul anyway. He appears with a corporeal body and we also get to see his astral body (one that bears some resemblance to Griffith...). Beyond that, Griffith is also not "projecting" the souls of the dead, at best he calls them to him and allows them to be seen.
Thanks, but it was merely me unable to think of a better word at the time. I also haven't seen anything saying he "calls" them, it has been stated they "gather" around Griffith though

And the kid is pretty slick eh? he leaves his vessel yet Griffith can't take advantage and he's wide awake in his body

At that time the boy just clued Guts in on what was going on. He also doesn't have "God Hand genes" and isn't related to the Idea of Evil as far as we know. He was "just" corrupted by evil while in the womb.
Refer to the top, i'm in need of answers

Dark Horse's translation is inaccurate. "Superior Being" or "Super Being" is more correct.
I will take your word on it

Trinity? Origin? :???:
Schierke mentions a "trinity" in the Dark Horse version, the physical world, the world of spirits i.e astral world, and the soul of the origin i.e world of idea

Walter's point is that the boy has a body of flesh. The difference between the two is quite obvious.
Sure, but that wasn't what he said


Offline Aazealh

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Re: The Moonlight Boy
« Reply #185 on: November 17, 2014, 09:28:26 PM »
Right you are "Aazealh"

I put your username between quotation marks because it's not a proper noun. Don't feel bad about it.

Because he vanishes in the sunlight despite having a physical body, apostles dont have any problem bathing in the sunlight

...?
Griffith does not vanish in the sunlight. That is not something that distinguishes members of the God Hand from apostles.

And if you refer to the boy, even though I wasn't talking about him in the line you quoted, then that was before Femto was incarnated into his body. We haven't seen how he reacts to sunlight since then. In any case, the boy has never been related to apostles (and he obviously wasn't affiliated with the God Hand either before the incarnation). He had been tainted by Femto while in the womb, and that had made him a rather unique being in the Berserk world. That's all.

I also haven't seen anything saying he "calls" them, it has been stated they "gather" around Griffith though

I think the pictures speak for themselves. Take episode 335, Griffith comes, he motions and they appear, he motions again and they go to their loved ones, taking human form. They are clearly coming to him because he wills it. It's not something that just happens to be no matter what.

And the kid is pretty slick eh? he leaves his vessel yet Griffith can't take advantage and he's wide awake in his body

What?

Refer to the top, i'm in need of answers

What?

Schierke mentions a "trinity" in the Dark Horse version, the physical world, the world of spirits i.e astral world, and the soul of the origin i.e world of idea

The "soul of the origin"? Another bad translation. As for "trinity", the word Schierke uses is "三身一体". The first two kanji are that of the Trikāya, the three bodies of the Buddha. They refer to three aspects of reality. The second part of the word refers to unity, to the joining of several things as one. While the spelling of the word is close to that of "trinity" ("三位一体") in Japanese, translating it like that in English implies a reference to Christian doctrine that is just misleading, because it's clearly not what Miura's going for here.

Anyway, you got the general idea. Three worlds (corporeal, astral, ideal) that form one reality.

Sure, but that wasn't what he said

You know, I'm always in favor of being as accurate as possible, but in the context of a discussion I think showing good faith is generally the commendable way to go about things.

Offline The Count

Re: The Moonlight Boy
« Reply #186 on: November 17, 2014, 10:48:05 PM »
I put your username between quotation marks because it's not a proper noun. Don't feel bad about it.
I dont/didn't, i put your name in quotations because i wasn't planning on quoting anything, but eventually i did and thus the confusion ensued

Quote
...?
Griffith does not vanish in the sunlight. That is not something that distinguishes members of the God Hand from apostles.

And if you refer to the boy, even though I wasn't talking about him in the line you quoted, then that was before Femto was incarnated into his body. We haven't seen how he reacts to sunlight since then. In any case, the boy has never been related to apostles (and he obviously wasn't affiliated with the God Hand either before the incarnation). He had been tainted by Femto while in the womb, and that had made him a rather unique being in the Berserk world. That's all.
I did mean the boy, but you are missing my point completely, the quote before had to do with the "bonafide god-hand" comment i had made, what i meant to say is that i feel the boy is like a demi-god-hand, he wasn't "just" corrupted by any evil, and may have (for a lack of a better word) "god-hand genes"

but now, unlike before, you're admitting he wasn't "just" tainted, as if by any ole' demon, but tainted by a very powerful being, which does make him unique

and thus my use of "bonafide" when referring to Griffith

Quote
I think the pictures speak for themselves. Take episode 335, Griffith comes, he motions and they appear, he motions again and they go to their loved ones, taking human form. They are clearly coming to him because he wills it. It's not something that just happens to be no matter what.
They were there before any motioning, just checked, and the "focusing of power" moment was no different to when he held the "dad's" soul in his hand before sending him to his family in his physical appearence

Not seeing anything that proves he can call any spirit from wherever to him although with his mysterious "angelic" abilities i'd buy w/e miura came up with about him repelling or attracting

Looks to me like the spirits gather around not so different to how they gather to Guts, but Guts isn't an "angel" beloved by the dead and with super powers

Quote
You know, I'm always in favor of being as accurate as possible, but in the context of a discussion I think showing good faith is generally the commendable way to go about things.
Did i again say something offensive? Otherwise im not following

Offline Aazealh

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Re: The Moonlight Boy
« Reply #187 on: November 18, 2014, 08:24:43 AM »
I dont/didn't, i put your name in quotations because i wasn't planning on quoting anything, but eventually i did and thus the confusion ensued

Uh huh.

I did mean the boy, but you are missing my point completely, the quote before had to do with the "bonafide god-hand" comment i had made, what i meant to say is that i feel the boy is like a demi-god-hand, he wasn't "just" corrupted by any evil, and may have (for a lack of a better word) "god-hand genes"

but now, unlike before, you're admitting he wasn't "just" tainted, as if by any ole' demon, but tainted by a very powerful being, which does make him unique

and thus my use of "bonafide" when referring to Griffith

Hahaha, yeah well, no, the boy isn't like a "demi-member of the God Hand". He was certainly unique even before the Incarnation, but his powers were not at all comparable (more like a "super specter" of sorts), nor was he related to them beyond the fact his sorry condition was the result of being tainted by one of them. So yes, the boy was "just" corrupted by evil (as the Skull Knight tells Guts in volume 14), and no, he didn't have "God Hand genes". You're quick to talk of things being written black on white in the manga when it suits you, but you aren't so picky when it comes to your own strange assumptions...

There's nothing in the manga that hints in any way whatsover at what you're saying. The boy had neither the power, the agenda, the evil presence or the specific astral properties of a member of the God Hand. Unlike them, he had a corporeal body (the one that Femto took over) and could materialize in the world with ease.

They were there before any motioning, just checked, and the "focusing of power" moment was no different to when he held the "dad's" soul in his hand before sending him to his family in his physical appearence

Not seeing anything that proves he can call any spirit from wherever to him although with his mysterious "angelic" abilities i'd buy w/e miura came up with about him repelling or attracting

Hahaha, look, that's exactly what I'm talking about when I say you argue in bad faith. You're the one who was saying Griffith was "projecting" those souls, which just isn't true. Then I threw you a bone by saying he does beckon to them when it suits him, but now you're arguing the veracity of that as if it wasn't what you were saying in the first place!

In any case, you'll notice that Griffith isn't surrounded by the dead all day long, and that in episode 335 they come to him (which we do see) right at that moment. It's not a coincidence: they came because he wanted them to.

Looks to me like the spirits gather around not so different to how they gather to Guts, but Guts isn't an "angel" beloved by the dead and with super powers

Without Schierke's seal, Guts is harassed by evil spirits all night long, every night. Griffith can summon the recently dead so they can speak to their loved ones. Not really the same process, although the parallel is interesting.

Did i again say something offensive? Otherwise im not following

What I'm saying is that it was clear what Walter's point was, and that focusing on the wording to find a "gotcha" instead of considering his point didn't help your argument. Same thing is currently happening just above.

Offline The Count

Re: The Moonlight Boy
« Reply #188 on: November 18, 2014, 10:01:25 AM »
Hahaha, yeah well, no, the boy isn't like a "demi-member of the God Hand". He was certainly unique even before the Incarnation, but his powers were not at all comparable (more like a "super specter" of sorts), nor was he related to them beyond the fact his sorry condition was the result of being tainted by one of them. So yes, the boy was "just" corrupted by evil (as the Skull Knight tells Guts in volume 14), and no, he didn't have "God Hand genes". You're quick to talk of things being written black on white in the manga when it suits you, but you aren't so picky when it comes to your own strange assumptions...There's nothing in the manga that hints in any way whatsover at what you're saying. The boy had neither the power, the agenda, the evil presence or the specific astral properties of a member of the God Hand. Unlike them, he had a corporeal body (the one that Femto took over) and could materialize in the world with ease.
well, being a fetus and bizarrely tainted, nvm with alot less evil than official members of the god-hand, yea, it does kind of suggest it's power wouldn't be comparable to a... wait for it, "bonafide" god-hand

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Hahaha, look, that's exactly what I'm talking about when I say you argue in bad faith. You're the one who was saying Griffith was "projecting" those souls, which just isn't true. Then I threw you a bone by saying he does beckon to them when it suits him, but now you're arguing the veracity of that as if it wasn't what you were saying in the first place!
Here i thought you were the one nitpicking
It seems that projecting comment completely flew over your head, when i used the word projecting i meant only for the act of giving the orb of light its physical form

I was in no way shape or form talking about griffiths ability to call or control or send away the spirits, simply put the process of going from orb to man shaped

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In any case, you'll notice that Griffith isn't surrounded by the dead all day long, and that in episode 335 they come to him (which we do see) right at that moment. It's not a coincidence: they came because he wanted them to.
They showed up when he showed up?
It would be no coincidence if Guts walked into a cemetary at night(wouldn't need to be night anymore) and ghosts were "summoned" to him

and im sure they do come because he wants them to, doesn't mean he calls them, he could just "let" them

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What I'm saying is that it was clear what Walter's point was, and that focusing on the wording to find a "gotcha" instead of considering his point didn't help your argument. Same thing is currently happening just above.
Oh, kind of like "it would be more exact to say the astral world was brought into the corpereal world..."
Dont worry about it, i don't, i don't see a problem with being corrected

If i had said "you can touch the boy, you can't touch those spirits", i have no doubt you would have corrected me

Offline Aazealh

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Re: The Moonlight Boy
« Reply #189 on: November 18, 2014, 10:52:43 AM »
well, being a fetus and bizarrely tainted, nvm with alot less evil than official members of the god-hand, yea, it does kind of suggest it's power wouldn't be comparable to a... wait for it, "bonafide" god-hand

Alright, so now it's clear you have no actual point, nothing to back what you're asserting, but you just don't want to relent. The boy was never a member of the God Hand in any capacity before the Incarnation occurred. Everything in the manga points to the contrary.

It seems that projecting comment completely flew over your head, when i used the word projecting i meant only for the act of giving the orb of light its physical form

I was in no way shape or form talking about griffiths ability to call or control or send away the spirits, simply put the process of going from orb to man shaped

Your inability to use proper vocabulary is no one's fault but yours. Beyond that, you used that word when you were comparing the summoning of dead souls to the Moonlight Boy's appearance to his parents, which you mistakenly believed was a process through which Griffith discarded the boy from himself (something closer to the notion of a "projection"). And since you're one for accuracy, Griffith doesn't give the souls (who aren't really orbs) a physical form. They take on a human shape but they have no corporeal body.

They showed up when he showed up?
It would be no coincidence if Guts walked into a cemetary at night(wouldn't need to be night anymore) and ghosts were "summoned" to him

They appeared shortly after he did, actually. In any case, like I precedently pointed out, we have seen Griffith countless times without seeing souls near him, including when surrounded by dead bodies (on the battlefield). Additionally, the first time we saw him summon souls like that, he was not near any corpses that we could see, so that's not related. Finally, Guts is attacked by specters regardless of being near to corpses or not. If anything, being near a cemetary would likely mean he'd be attacked by possessed skeletons or decomposing bodies, like we have seen in the past.

and im sure they do come because he wants them to, doesn't mean he calls them, he could just "let" them

Ah, so he could just let them come! Well sure, sure all the souls everywhere could always be trying to come swirling around him and he'd be consciously repulsing them all the time, except when he wanted to cherry-pick certain souls at a certain time and allow them to come nearby so that they'd see their loved ones. Or he could summon them and allow them to be seen when he sees fit.

Oh, kind of like "it would be more exact to say the astral world was brought into the corpereal world..."
Dont worry about it, i don't, i don't see a problem with being corrected

The difference is that your reply was a way for you to avoid admitting the evidence: that the boy isn't an astral projection. And it does seem to me that you have a problem with being corrected, as our current exchange shows.

Offline slothqueen

Re: The Moonlight Boy
« Reply #190 on: November 18, 2014, 01:59:07 PM »
Moonlight Boy is pretty much enigmatic to me.

It seems like the blemish of evil (fucked up look and so) disappeared as Femto incarnated into child's body. What is he now than? "Pure" Guts & Casca's son, no longer tainted? Still his abilities are far from normal kid's ones (flying, or connecting with berserker's armour). Some form Griffith takes to meet Guts? Rather nope, I find no reason for Griffith to making trips to Guts and Casca now... though it seems that MB occurs only when Griffith's part of story ends, and he's free to do as he wish (ergo, he possibly could utilize this time to travel to his "parents"). Anyway, if that was true, Casca's and Guts' brands would display that fact (they was insensitive to the presence of the child, I guess, but not to the presence of Griffith).
There is also a theory that Griffith sometimes releases MB (losing temporarily his body), but what business would Griffith have into giving MB these short glimpses of freedom? Child clearly has his own free will - why does he even returns to his oppressor? And why is his former ugly look gone? It would be logic if body was constantly under Griffith's control (he'd be able to hide blemish of evil), which is impossible (because of the reason I put on formerly).

Meh, I would be grateful if somebody has some reasonable theory about what is Moonlight Boy now...

Offline Salem

Re: The Moonlight Boy
« Reply #191 on: November 18, 2014, 02:11:19 PM »
I've come to the conclusion it's a waste of time arguing about stuff you just don't know for sure.  Until the series is over and all is explained,  why get upset about it having a disagreement?   Besides, if someone stumbles on this site and sees constant bickering they could be turned off.  Just saying.

Offline IncantatioN

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Re: The Moonlight Boy
« Reply #192 on: November 18, 2014, 02:37:45 PM »
Besides, if someone stumbles on this site and sees constant bickering they could be turned off.  Just saying.

Well, not if the information is inaccurate. You read of many theories and assumptions but without any grounds of being true to what we read in the manga. You wouldn't want to come to a forum where you're misinformed about a series. The admin's are correct in making sure the info is accurate. They go to the extent of breaking it down for us fairly, to help us understand which's something we should be very fortunate to have.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2014, 02:49:57 PM by IncantatioN »
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Offline Salem

Re: The Moonlight Boy
« Reply #193 on: November 18, 2014, 02:50:44 PM »
If the bickering starts sounding personal.   That's what I was trying to get across.   :zodd:  Not the admins using truth  :griffnotevil:  They are absolutely fair.  Its just easy to let your imagination run wild when you get excited.

Offline Aazealh

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Re: The Moonlight Boy
« Reply #194 on: November 18, 2014, 03:04:28 PM »
I've come to the conclusion it's a waste of time arguing about stuff you just don't know for sure.  Until the series is over and all is explained,  why get upset about it having a disagreement?   Besides, if someone stumbles on this site and sees constant bickering they could be turned off.  Just saying.

Well I don't disagree in principle that "bickering" is a general turn off, although some people do enjoy "heated" arguments. However as IncantatioN says, when someone posts something incorrect, it's better to point it out rather than let misinformation spread. Now, the problem that can arise is that sometimes people won't easily accept being wrong about something (it can be as simple as the spelling of Guts' name), and a discussion will devolve into something of practically no relevance. And then I agree that there is no real point in keeping it going, but we can't just forbid people to say what they want, now can we? And yet at the same time, we still can't let misinformation spread, so we end up with longish backs and forths of little interest. There's not much can done for that, I'm afraid.

Offline Salem

Re: The Moonlight Boy
« Reply #195 on: November 18, 2014, 03:10:59 PM »
For sure.  My post above was what I didn't quite get across in the first comment.  In the end though, some of us might just be hard headed within certain subjects.  :SK:

Offline The Count

Re: The Moonlight Boy
« Reply #196 on: November 18, 2014, 03:14:55 PM »
Alright, so now it's clear you have no actual point, nothing to back what you're asserting, but you just don't want to relent. The boy was never a member of the God Hand in any capacity before the Incarnation occurred. Everything in the manga points to the contrary.
You seem to be losing it a bit, relax man, this is pointless banter, it wont affect our daily lives
But here's some evidence, the kid can teleport, control evil spirits and seemingly a forceshield(similar to Griffiths push and pull?) or that's what appeared like in one frame when mozgus shot his fire, oh and he also has some weird illusionary/telekenetic ability which allowed him to show guts casca's face(on fire)

I think him controling evil spirits shows he's maybe above even an apostle, rank wise, im sure any apostle would murder him in a fight, think royalty.

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Your inability to use proper vocabulary is no one's fault but yours.
Nah, although I admit I sometimes mess up what im trying to get across, but this one I think is your own fault, sorry friend.

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Beyond that, you used that word when you were comparing the summoning of dead souls to the Moonlight Boy's appearance to his parents, which you mistakenly believed was a process through which Griffith discarded the boy from himself (something closer to the notion of a "projection").
No, there were two theories, you're getting them mixed together

Simply put, not the summoning of the dead souls, projecting their physical appearence from their orb like spirits, get it?

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And since you're one for accuracy, Griffith doesn't give the souls (who aren't really orbs) a physical form. They take on a human shape but they have no corporeal body.
Aye, good call, I swear I typed "physical appearence" but somewhere among the deleting and editing I messed up once again, apologies.

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They appeared shortly after he did, actually. In any case, like I precedently pointed out, we have seen Griffith countless times without seeing souls near him, including when surrounded by dead bodies (on the battlefield).
Because it wasn't night time, and later on because of the Ganishka tree

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Additionally, the first time we saw him summon souls like that, he was not near any corpses that we could see, so that's not related.

What's not related? Was he not right next to a battlefield? I dont think it would be too far-fetched to believe there were some spirits right around the corner, amidst all the dead bodies.

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Finally, Guts is attacked by specters regardless of being near to corpses or not. If anything, being near a cemetary would likely mean he'd be attacked by possessed skeletons or decomposing bodies, like we have seen in the past.
Ok, missing the point but ok.

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Ah, so he could just let them come! Well sure, sure all the souls everywhere could always be trying to come swirling around him and he'd be consciously repulsing them all the time, except when he wanted to cherry-pick certain souls at a certain time and allow them to come nearby so that they'd see their loved ones. Or he could summon them and allow them to be seen when he sees fit.
It's too bad I can't post an image(with the text), but, i emplore you, go to the page(s) when we first see Griffith playing with the ghosts, plenty of spirits around, kid says "where's dad/father/papa"(w/e, paraphrasing) Griffith grabs hold of his spirit and projects(I actually can't think of another word) his physical appearence, they have their farewells yada yada, notice there are still plenty of spirits around before he ultimately, seemingly with less effort than giving the spirit it's physical appearence, just sort of nonchalantly sends them all away.

Now, go to one of the more recent episodes, go to the page where Griffith is "charging up his "od" before "projecting" the spirits with family in the vicinity. Now turn the page and what do you have? More spirits, yes, he didn't project all the spirits, he can choose to give them a "physical appearence" with a little effort OR just send them away deeper into the beyond with little thought.

So it's not so absurd, right?

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The difference is that your reply was a way for you to avoid admitting the evidence: that the boy isn't an astral projection. And it does seem to me that you have a problem with being corrected, as our current exchange shows.
Umm, yea, I had an opinion, usually people stick to their opinions until convinced otherwise or is that just me? I had the (stupid)idea in one theory that maybe the boy was being projected by a nearby Griffith, kind of like those other spirits, Walt said "yea but casca can touch the boy, you can't touch the other spirits" I said "not true man, here, look at this, you can touch them"

and our minds = blown

Honestly I think your quarrell here is that i might have been right with Walter? Not to seem pretentious but after that post(maybe it was my very first post) I think the negative karma rolled in, and I wasn't sure what I did wrong, wondering if maybe the karma came from my modifying of my posts, but I think i get it now. That this forum, although im sure great people, intelligent people, is not too welcoming to newbies with their own thoughts

Perhaps I need but simply have you guys warm up to me, or maybe we'll never get along who knows

Offline Aazealh

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Re: The Moonlight Boy
« Reply #197 on: November 18, 2014, 06:06:48 PM »
You seem to be losing it a bit, relax man, this is pointless banter, it wont affect our daily lives

Ah yes, the classic! Rest assured, my daily life is not affected (well, aside from the time I'm losing).

But here's some evidence, the kid can teleport, control evil spirits and seemingly a forceshield(similar to Griffiths push and pull?) or that's what appeared like in one frame when mozgus shot his fire, oh and he also has some weird illusionary/telekenetic ability which allowed him to show guts casca's face(on fire)

Any random specter can also appear and disappear at will (or take on different forms), that goes with the territory. Other than that, the boy did not control evil spirits, he could just hold them off (much like the Skull Knight did not "control" the Slug Count in volume 10). And while he managed to briefly protect his mother from Mozgus' flames, it was at the cost of his life. He was dying when the Beherit Apostle took him. None of this is related to the God Hand, nor does it constitute evidence of any sort that the boy was related to them. Quite the contrary in fact.

I think him controling evil spirits shows he's maybe above even an apostle, rank wise, im sure any apostle would murder him in a fight, think royalty.

See, this is ridiculous. Ranks? Royalty? Where's that mentioned in the manga? Nowhere. The boy was never a member of the God Hand in any capacity before the Incarnation occurred. Everything in the manga points to the contrary.

Nah, although I admit I sometimes mess up what im trying to get across, but this one I think is your own fault, sorry friend.

You've admitted yourself that you only used it because you couldn't think of a proper word to convey your intent...

No, there were two theories, you're getting them mixed together

Simply put, not the summoning of the dead souls, projecting their physical appearence from their orb like spirits, get it?

I don't believe I'm getting anything mixed together. Again, your inability to properly convey what you mean is no one's fault but yours. Either way, you've run this into the ground to try to justify an idea that you've already reneged on (that Griffith "projected" the boy). You're also still using the word "project" in a way that makes little sense. The souls are shapeless, and under Griffith's influence they briefly take on their former human appearances. That's all there is to it.

You should understand that when you speak of "projecting" with regard to spirits and the like, what it evokes is "astral projection". That's something more akin to what Schierke does when her spiritual self (luminous body) leaves her corporeal body. And in Griffith's case, "projecting from an orb" implies he's playing an hologram from a magic sphere, while the souls actually change shape and are free to move around. No matter how you look at it, it's both incorrect and badly worded.

Because it wasn't night time, and later on because of the Ganishka tree

We did see Griffith at night time without any souls around him, for example in episodes 235, 258 or 298. As for the tree, what is it supposed to do anyway? Allow souls to appear during the day, or prevent them from appearing? Because they do show in daylight within the hall in episode 335, and are not there later on during the day in episode 337. Anyway, nothing in the manga indicates that the tree has a particular effect on them. Honestly, we both know you're just grasping at straws here and it shows.

What's not related? Was he not right next to a battlefield? I dont think it would be too far-fetched to believe there were some spirits right around the corner, amidst all the dead bodies.

No actually, from the aerial view of the camp we see, they're not right next to a battlefield. It wouldn't make much sense for an army to set up a camp right next to a field of dead bodies anyway, who'd want to do that?

It's too bad I can't post an image(with the text), but, i emplore you, go to the page(s) when we first see Griffith playing with the ghosts, plenty of spirits around, kid says "where's dad/father/papa"(w/e, paraphrasing) Griffith grabs hold of his spirit and projects(I actually can't think of another word) his physical appearence, they have their farewells yada yada, notice there are still plenty of spirits around before he ultimately, seemingly with less effort than giving the spirits their physical appearence, just sort of nonchalantly sends them away.

Now, go to the latest chapter, go to the page where Griffith is "charging up his "od" before "projecting" the spirits with family in the vicinity. Now turn the page and what do you have? More spirits, yes, he didn't project all the spirits, he can choose to give them a "physical appearence" with a little effort OR just send them away deeper into the beyond with little thought.

So it's not so absurd, right?

The latest chapter is "The chapter of the Elf Island". You mean the latest episode. But the latest episode is 337, and you actually mean 335. Anyway, what you say here seems irrelevant to me. I mean look at the point you are trying to make. That Griffith can summon souls (or they come to him when he lets them, if you prefer), allow them to appear as their former selves to their loved ones, and then send them away as he wants. Well that's just what I have been saying from the beginning. That all souls are sent to see someone or not is pretty much inconsequential because this little show only takes place when it is supposed to. Besides, no one said each soul has to be called forth nominatively.

Your use of the word "project" is still wrong though (remember, that's all I wanted to tell you), and Griffith doesn't "charge up his Od" either. He just walks forward, three souls come to him from above (so not from the direction of the coffins, just so you know), then he gestures and more souls come. Then he gestures again and they go to the people, where they then regain their former appearance. Oh and about the first time we see him do this? Mule arrives in the middle of it. That's why the souls are already there.

Umm, yea, I had an opinion, usually people stick to their opinions until convinced otherwise or is that just me? I had the (stupid)idea in one theory that maybe the boy was being projected by a nearby Griffith, kind of like those other spirits, Walt said "yea but casca can touch the boy, you can't touch the other spirits" I said "not true man, here, look at this, you can touch them"

and our minds = blown

Honestly I think your quarrell here is that i might have been right with Walter?

Nothing mind-blowing about this, sorry to say. See Guts' comment about the texture of the specters as he fights them with SK's sword in volume 13. Anyhow, I've already told you twice why I made that comment: because I don't think that particular reply was made in good faith. That's all. Of course we all have our opinions, but here it was more a matter of seeing the facts: that the boy does have a corporeal body, unlike those dead souls.

Not to seem pretentious but after that post(maybe it was my very first post) I think the negative karma rolled in, and I wasn't sure what I did wrong, wondering if maybe the karma came from my modifying of my posts, but I think i get it now. That this forum, although im sure great people, intelligent people, is not too welcoming to newbies with their own thoughts

Perhaps I need but simply have you guys warm up to me, or maybe we'll never get along because I have my own opinions

I believe it does come across as pretentious for you to say that people must disapprove of new members instead of thinking that maybe it's the disingenuousness you've shown during this argument that might be the problem. And I also think most of your bad karma came in today, you were only at -1 before. It could always go back up though, it all comes down to one's attitude and the quality of their posts. Just like real karma!

Anyway, you speak of having your own opinions, but that's not the subject here. Of course everyone has their own opinions. But when you say that the kid was born with "God Hand genes", well that's just not true if we stick to what's in the manga. We are actually explained why he's like that, but you prefer to assert something else despite not having any ground to stand on. In such a case, don't be surprised if others don't agree with you.

Offline The Count

Re: The Moonlight Boy
« Reply #198 on: November 18, 2014, 07:28:09 PM »
Haven't seen any specter use that whirling teleporting ability
If you can't understand what I meant when I said "rank wise"/"think royalty" then you're either, i dont want to go there.. or fiegning ignorance doing the very thing you accused me of. Avoiding the point just to get a "gotcha" was it?

Anyway, this convo has gone on long enough.

Offline Aazealh

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Re: The Moonlight Boy
« Reply #199 on: November 18, 2014, 09:00:31 PM »
Haven't seen any specter use that whirling teleporting ability

The boy has appeared and disappeared many times throughout the series, and it wasn't always represented that way. It's not his signature move or anything. Anyway, we do see specters appear or disappear at will, for example in volume 13 when Guts is fighting them while the Skull Knight watches, and suddenly they go away (to Casca).

If you can't understand what I meant when I said "rank wise"/"think royalty" then you're either, i dont want to go there.. or fiegning ignorance doing the very thing you accused me of. Avoiding the point just to get a "gotcha" was it?

Oh but I understand it perfectly, it's just not true. Nowhere in the manga is there ever any mention of such a ranking system, and there's no reason to believe anything like that exists.

Anyway, this convo has gone on long enough.

Agreed!