Griffith the good guy

I usually don't like comparing Berserk to literature because it seems to go nowhere but I was reading Nietzsche's "Genealogy of Morals" and it seemed to explain exactly the kind of person Griffith is and that he isn't "bad". Nietzsche explains the "rancorous man" and the "noble man". The noble man (read Griffith) is one who looks inward for happiness and acts instantly on what he feels is right. On the other hand, the rancorous man creates a "slave ethic" where his life is based on an outward force of contempt. He makes an analogy of a bird of prey (Griffith of course) and lambs and the fact that the lambs dislike the bird of prey. It is normal that the lambs don't like the bird of prey but that doesn't mean they're "evil" and certainly doesn't the mean the lambs are good just because they are the opposite. The bird of prey loves and respects the lamb because it is tasty food just as Griffith loves Guts for what he does for him. I wouldn't quite say that Guts is a lamb though, but most people in Berserk are. Nietzsche would admire a character like Griffith for his unwavering sense of self and his perserverance to act on his dream. I think most people hate Griffith because, I dare say, they agree with the slave ethic.
 

Kenoh-Sama

"What is love? Not that I want some or anythi
I usually don't like comparing Berserk to literature because it seems to go nowhere but I was reading Nietzsche's "Genealogy of Morals" and it seemed to explain exactly the kind of person Griffith is and that he isn't "bad". Nietzsche explains the "rancorous man" and the "noble man". The noble man (read Griffith) is one who looks inward for happiness and acts instantly on what he feels is right. On the other hand, the rancorous man creates a "slave ethic" where his life is based on an outward force of contempt. He makes an analogy of a bird of prey (Griffith of course) and lambs and the fact that the lambs dislike the bird of prey. It is normal that the lambs don't like the bird of prey but that doesn't mean they're "evil" and certainly doesn't the mean the lambs are good just because they are the opposite. The bird of prey loves and respects the lamb because it is tasty food just as Griffith loves Guts for what he does for him. I wouldn't quite say that Guts is a lamb though, but most people in Berserk are. Nietzsche would admire a character like Griffith for his unwavering sense of self and his perserverance to act on his dream. I think most people hate Griffith because, I dare say, they agree with the slave ethic.

Well done. I like your well thought out statement. I really don't believe that Griffith is evil. Ambition itself isn't evil. Few people are evil. Actions are evil (Naturally it depends on your conviction and interpretation of the word. Others could differ). It's what you do that's more important then what you say or even think. It's his actions I have a problem with. Regardless of how characters and readers fall for his charisma (he has NOTHING on CHAR! Nothing!!), or how handsomely bi-shonen he looks to some girls or how attractivly aloof he is to some, in the end he fucked his friends over. :( As simple, base or crass as that statement is, that's what happened.

Again this is Narrative. What I consider fucking someone over others consider proactive and creative :) What I consider sexual harrasment others call friendly warm socializing :-*. What I call lying others call misunderstanding :) It's all perspective. As you have given us words by Herr Friedrich Nietzsche I give you words by another legendary figure Obiwan Kenobi. “Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view”. That’s as good a explanation as any. 8)
 

Vermillion

If we do not find them soon, we shall be of no use
As you have given us words by Herr Friedrich Nietzsche I give you words by another legendary figure Obiwan Kenobi. “Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view”.   That’s as good a explanation as any.  8)

and it makes sense too....
 

trapped_soul

"This is it. It's over."
well a human being is defined by its actions isn't it? you can't just seperate his actions from his personality and say: griffith is not evil. his actions are. isn't that a bit contradictory?

why do you say that griff has absolutely no charisma? what's the reason for people followed him everywhere then? judeau said in vol 4 "i don't know what's so special about him (that's a typical symptom that appears if one tries to describe a person that is charismatic.
"it's his confidence - in everything"

judeau wouldn't have said that if griffith had no charisma - at least in my opinion.
 

Kenoh-Sama

"What is love? Not that I want some or anythi
well a human being is defined by its actions isn't it? you can't just seperate his actions from his personality and say: griffith is not evil. his actions are. isn't that a bit contradictory?

why do you say that griff has absolutely no charisma? what's the reason for people followed him everywhere then? judeau said in vol 4 "i don't know what's so special about him (that's a typical symptom that appears if one tries to describe a person that is charismatic.
"it's his confidence - in everything"

judeau wouldn't have said that if griffith had no charisma - at least in my opinion.

Yeah. It is contradictory. that's why human nature is debated. A good man can have one bad day and do something Horrific. That's why temporary insanity exist (in a legal judicial sense mind you) Does that make he himself evil. No were his actions evil. We have simple natures but complex reasoning. Does that answer our questions? No. And it never will be answered. Besides, I'm in no rush to find out.

I never EVER stated Griffith has "absolutly no charisma". I never said that. Saying that Griffith has no charisma is a blinding oversight. Look at my post again and tell me where I wrote that. I jokingly said that COMPARED to Char from Gundam he has none. Watching the Original Gundam series, Z Gundam, Char's counterattack I can say no character I have ever seen anywhere has his charisma. Why do you think that after 20 something years he's still in the japan top anime characters list? Char's counterattack is SO FUNNY!! :D Watching Char being Char and watching his charisma go to work is a thing of beauty to see. Keep in mind Char has A LOT more screen time than Griffith does so he has a lot more memorable moments than Griffith. All I can say is watch it. ;D
 
Well done. I like your well thought out statement. I really don't believe that Griffith is evil. Ambition itself isn't evil. Few people are evil. Actions are evil (Naturally it depends on your conviction and interpretation of the word. Others could differ). It's what you do that's more important then what you say or even think. It's his actions I have a problem with. Regardless of how characters and readers fall for his charisma (he has NOTHING on CHAR! Nothing!!), or how handsomely bi-shonen he looks to some girls or how attractivly aloof he is to some, in the end he fucked his friends over.  :( As simple, base or crass as that statement is, that's what happened.

Again this is Narrative. What I consider fucking someone over others consider proactive and creative :) What I consider sexual harrasment others call friendly warm socializing  :-*. What I call lying others call misunderstanding  :) It's all perspective. As you have given us words by Herr Friedrich Nietzsche I give you words by another legendary figure Obiwan Kenobi. “Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view”.   That’s as good a explanation as any.  8)

Yep, good old Obi Wan was right. But about Griffith, I don't think the Hawks were really his friends but he did "fuck them over" no doubt. Most people look at it from the Hawks' perspective but they don't think for a second about Griffith being tortured for a year. What was he to do? Die a cripple or continue onward with his dream? Hmm, I'm sure it took him along time to decide.  ;) This could be seen as complete selfishness or noble action as Kenoh-Sama said about perspective, but I prefer the latter even though some cool characters died (Pippin :) ). I don't think Miura sees Griffith as as an antagonist either because that would just be too boring.

Trapped_soul: The Ad Hominem fallacy is when you attack a point based on the person who said it. :)
 

biggerthanzodd

mmm...banana
Nietzsche wouldn't admire Griffith for adapting the master ethic just as he wouldn't despise the nobles for their slave ethic. These moral systems are both supposedly appropriate for the lives that both types of people in Berserk live. To assign Griffith as either a good person that has done evil things or a simply bad person doesn't make sense given the pretext of "God is dead." Griffith's wholesale slaughter of his men is morally neutral in this void.
The mere fact that Nietzsche laments this new nihilistic sentiment doesn't absolve him from essentially creating it, which is what he did. Perhaps I'm assuming the Ape Ethic, where I assign the philosopher that impugns my peaceful jungle as evil, and assign the opposite as good.
I'm not trying to say that Miura hasn't read Nietzsche and incorporated it into his work. In fact, I'm sure that he has, but wait-- this message board is called "the Will to Power" --we knew this all along.
 
Nietzsche wouldn't admire Griffith for adapting the master ethic just as he wouldn't despise the nobles for their slave ethic. These moral systems are both supposedly appropriate for the lives that both types of people in Berserk live. To assign Griffith as either a good person that has done evil things or a simply bad person doesn't make sense given the pretext of "God is dead." Griffith's wholesale slaughter of his men is morally neutral in this void.
The mere fact that Nietzsche laments this new nihilistic sentiment doesn't absolve him from essentially creating it, which is what he did. Perhaps I'm assuming the Ape Ethic, where I assign the philosopher that impugns my peaceful jungle as evil, and assign the opposite as good.

I didn't mean to actually say Griffith is actually good or bad in this context, I just offered a perspective where Griffith's character would be appreciated. Nietzsche would not say a man like Griffith is good, I know that, nonetheless he would admire Griffith as a noble man. Read how he talks about both ethics and I think you'll agree. And "admire" does not have connotations of good it is simply preference with no morals attached.

I'm not trying to say that Miura hasn't read Nietzsche and incorporated it into his work. In fact, I'm sure that he has, but wait-- this message board is called "the Will to Power" --we knew this all along.

I wasn't trying to say Miura was influenced by Nietzsche or has even read his work (although he probably has). I was just trying to show Griffith in a different light.
 

CnC

Ad Oculos
I wasn't trying to say Miura was influenced by Nietzsche or has even read his work (although he probably has). I was just trying to show Griffith in a different light.

kinda like the 200+ thread on this subject on the BSOM bbs
however i don't beleive miura's influences on his characters were discussed there.
 

Kenoh-Sama

"What is love? Not that I want some or anythi
you wrote it here:

ON Char!!! Nothing on Char!!! Like saying "Vince Carter has nothing on Jordan!!!" You do understand slang right? You are totally making a something out of nothing. I never said Griffith has No charisma. You didn't get the meaning behind my initial statement. Everyone I've shown my previous post gets it. It's simple. I don't know maybe I'm talking regional slang but don't know it. I doubt it since I heard it on Jim Rome's sports show last night. I said compared to Char he has nothing!!!
C-O-M-P-A-R-E-D to Char his charisma is ZERO! Z-E-R-O. Do you understand the statement now?
 

Chinmi

The best defense is a good offence!
If u ask me, I think Griffith is a psychopath like any killers and rapist out there.  A common characteristic of a psycho is they have no empathy but are extremly intelligent, yet, very dangerous.  They only care about about themselves and they have absoulutly no remorse for their own action.  According to research, if u put a normal guy and psycho and both get an electrcal shock, the psycho heart rate would be lower than the normal guy.  These psycho have this sick pleasure knowing they can overpower someone ie. raping Caska.

Just like in the book "Heart of Darkness"  by joe Conrad and "lord of the flies",  the villian become a psycho when they are consume by greed once they achieve power.  With this power, there is no one to stop them.  With out restraint, the villian can do anything they want.  The reason they do these bad things is because they can get away with it.  Thats just part of human nature.

I don't think Griffith is good, consider the way he is.  Is there a chance he would change his ways and become good?  HELL NO.  Even if he is going to die,  he probably wouldn't say sorry or regret to the bad things he did.  I'll bet he is going to betray Zodd and the rest his army like he did to Guts and the other hawks because he a lousy bastard.  


on a totally seprate topic, I very disapointd that the Raptors lost to the Wizard last Sunday. That is their forth lost in a row. SHIT!!!!!
 

Kenoh-Sama

"What is love? Not that I want some or anythi
If u ask me, I think Griffith is a psychopath like any killers and rapist out there.  A common characteristic of a psycho is they have no empathy but are extremly intelligent, yet, very dangerous.  They only care about about themselves and they have absoulutly no remorse for their own action.  According to research, if u put a normal guy and psycho and both get an electrcal shock, the psycho heart rate would be lower than the normal guy.  These psycho have this sick pleasure knowing they can overpower someone ie. raping Caska.

Just like in the book "Heart of Darkness"  by joe Conrad and "lord of the flies",  the villian become a psycho when they are consume by greed once they achieve power.  With this power, there is no one to stop them.  With out restraint, the villian can do anything they want.  The reason they do these bad things is because they can get away with it.  Thats just part of human nature.

I don't think Griffith is good, consider the way he is.  Is there a chance he would change his ways and become good?  HELL NO.  Even if he is going to die,  he probably wouldn't say sorry or regret to the bad things he did.  I'll bet he is going to betray Zodd and the rest his army like he did to Guts and the other hawks because he a lousy bastard.  


on a totally seprate topic, I very disapointd that the Raptors lost to the Wizard last Sunday.  That is their forth lost in a row.  SHIT!!!!!    

Like I always said Griffith will never repent. It's not in his character. Which I is fine cause I want Guts to cut him in half anyway. I don't think He's a lost soul like Hal Jordan either. In Hal's case it was "absolute power corrupts absolutly". Even good guys like Hal couldn't prove that theory wrong. I somewhat agree with your view point. But I think we both believe that he should get killed. I can't wait to see that :)
 

trapped_soul

"This is it. It's over."
ON Char!!! Nothing on Char!!! Like saying "Vince Carter has nothing on Jordan!!!" You do understand slang right? You are totally making a something out of nothing. I never said Griffith has No charisma. You didn't get the meaning behind my initial statement. Everyone I've shown my previous post gets it. It's simple. I don't know maybe I'm talking regional slang but don't know it. I doubt it since I heard it on Jim Rome's sports show last night. I said compared to Char he has nothing!!!
C-O-M-P-A-R-E-D to Char his charisma is ZERO! Z-E-R-O. Do you understand the statement now?

no need to become aggressive! i'm feeling scared!!

i am sorry for misunderstanding you. i didn't know you were refering to a character named "char". i thought "char" is a shortcut for "charisma", this is the reason for i misinterpreted your message. sorry.    :-X

you seem to be a sultry guy...    ;D

P.S. i am an austrian guy, this is why i can't follow up your slang anytime. :-X
 

Kenoh-Sama

"What is love? Not that I want some or anythi
no need to become aggressive! i'm feeling scared!!

i am sorry for misunderstanding you. i didn't know you were refering to a character named "char". i thought "char" is a shortcut for "charisma", this is the reason for i misinterpreted your message. sorry.    :-X

you seem to be a sultry guy...    ;D

P.S. i am an austrian guy, this is why i can't follow up your slang anytime.    :-X


Well yeah I do have a quick to anger temper. I didn't know you were austrian. I keep forgeting how international this BBS is. No worries tho'. Just a miscommunication between comrades.
 

eintrigga

Today's Yamaba?
....there is no "good" nor "evil" in berserk --it's beyond good and evil ;D (my god that's a bad pun).

nietzche was a fun guy and all, but that's not all there is to it.
 

Kenoh-Sama

"What is love? Not that I want some or anythi
....there is no "good" nor "evil" in berserk --it's beyond good and evil ;D (my god that's a bad pun).

nietzche was a fun guy and all, but that's not all there is to it.

I know. People blame or (credit) him for being the one who gave birth to Nazism. I don't know that much about the man to say anything.
 

eintrigga

Today's Yamaba?
I know. People blame or (credit) him for being the one who gave birth to Nazism. I don't know that much about the man to say anything.

heidigger (sp?)! now that's a nazi-boy, poor nietzche, methinks he would be disgusted with nazi's total obedience to a dictator (even tho that is what he's suggesting)
 

ARHicks00

I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
I doubt it, I'm not saying I'm right, but it quite possible Griffith is planning to set up the Godhand so he can because the ultimate God. But the set up may end in two ways. Either the Godhand will perish or Griffith will perish. I think the former is most likely to happen, if he does because they are the one pull his strings and they are the ones who put him in power. I doubt Gatsu and Griffith will become friend especially at what happen to Caska. Most likely, Griffith isn't going to be alive by the time this manga is over. Whether it happens after defeating Godhand or dying by Godhand, Griffith is going to pay for his crimes.

I remember from read the story description in "Blacksun Over Midland" website is that one of Miura's themes of the story is that characters can take their own destinies in their own hands. But...if there is also the conquences of one's actions. The life you lead will determined how your life turn out. Needless to say Gatsu lives his life by the sword, so his life is plagued by battles and hardships. Griffith leads a life as a power obessed tryant, needless to say, that life will be plague by powertrips, blind ambition and eventually his own death. So I'm not too surprised at how they turn out, the hardships that they suffer and how it will end.

Again, I disagree that he will be redeem for all his actions since he has done too much to be redeem. Could you or anyone look your friend in his face, after he violated your woman, tainted your child and killed your friends. And did it all out of ambition. I highly doubt it. I'm pretty sure Miura is going to give Griffith's in the end.
 
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