Will Gutz Become Griffith?

Will Berserk Become Griffith?
The reason why i ask this question is because it seems more and more we go through the story, gutts is changing like him.

Before guts had no purpose.

Now His purpose it to destroy griffith.

Griffiths' goal was to become a king.

Before gutz was a loner.

Now he has a band with him.

Just like griffith did.

Will Gutz's ambition die?

Will gutz sacrifice His band?

Just like griffith did?

Just for the purpose of killing griffith.

Re: Will Guts Become Griffith?

No.

Gut's main goal is to not lose Caska, actually try to get her to Elfheim at the moment. A smaller goal is to defeat Griffith, but I believe that will always be under protecting Caska, even when she becomes sane, unless she dies. Then Griffith will have a big bullseye with a heat seeking dragonslayer coming after him. :) They don't really parallel, Griffith's and Gut's dream or ambition. It is not Gut's ambition to kill Griffith, it is just a deep desire, even a little bit of spite thrown in. Griffith wanted to be a king like somebody wants to be a doctor, he was just one who had it in him to go on, no matter what. Guts was at the wrong place at the wrong time, things collapsed and now rest heavily on his shoulders. I think Guts ambition is to be happy with Caska, the one and only woman that made him forget everything, even just for a short time. I can see how you would easily try to compare the two paths, but they are extreme contrasts once you get past the surface. The last thing to maybe think about, is to just look at the number one thing they want. Griffith, to be a king and have a kingdom. Guts, to have his love back. Incredible the way Miura has made these two paths cross, also with the other billion things going on in Berserk, such as Guts wanting his revenge, Serpico wanting Farnese, or is it Guts he wants to kill his deep desire? So much, way awesome. Hope this has helped, or maybe I enjoy it too much. :-*

- C

Re: Will Guts Become Griffith?

I'm not convinced that Guts' "dream" so to speak has anything to do with Casca. He cares about her, which is why he protects her and wants to help her and be with her. But Guts' life is one of conflict, and I don't think he would be happy or pursuing his "dream" if he laid down his sword and decided to live a normal life with Casca somewhere. He doesn't really seem to have any larger goal that I can design other than to pursue his existence through fighting for it.
I realize that's kind of a problematic answer, and I have my own problems with it. It doesn't really leave any reason for Guts to be so extraordinarily driven to destroy Griffith... But I think the thing that is trying to be shown is that, unlike Griffith, Guts ultimately does not sacrifice his friends and allies for his own goals. He came back to save Griffith, and that got him into the whole mess. Even after defeating Wyald, he could have simply left with the rest of the Hawks, they were willing to follow him. Guts is a leader, even if he's not the same kind of leader as Griffith. His loyalty is ultimately what resulted in him being branded, a loyalty that was betrayed by Griffith. The point I'm trying to make is even when Guts' individual interest may not coincide with his emotions, he is willing to follow his emotions. Thus he continues to protect Casca even though he might not do so in the interest of any sort of dream, and the larger dream of fighting to validate his existence is furthered by pursuing his vengeance against Griffith's betrayal.

Re: Will Guts Become Griffith?

I do agree somewhat Denial with your view, but I wasn't really talking about his dream. Why would anyone dream of taking care of an insane person? I know that isn't necessarily what you are saying, but being the current circumstances in Berserk, it fits. I was implying that Guts' ambition, which is not the same as a dream, is to have his love with Caska returned to him. You are correct that Guts does not sacrifice his friends, crew, team, whatever you call them, to make his wishes come true. He actually sacrifices himself, example of his arm for Caska. He also has done other various things over time where he takes injury to help/save others as well. Deep down I do think he really wants to be with Caska. He has had a small taste of a different life other than swinging his sword, and liked it. With things as they are though, he doesn't know what to make of things at times, which is why rather often, especially around Caska, since SK told him she might not want what he wants, he makes a face like this to show he is thinking, but can't really put his finger on what to do:


It just doesn't boil down to a certain dream of what they want, as a dream can change overnight. I think Guts ambition, whether he has realized it or not this whole time, is to find where he belongs in life. The path may change, from Griffith, to Caska, or what have you, but the destination is the same. He wants to find that happiness, and right now, actually for a while, maybe even before the day on top of the waterfall, he has wanted Caska. He just has to figure out how to get all the crap out of his path. Griffith, the Kushan, Serpico, many obstacles are in his path broadening the story. That's why he makes that kind of face, just trying to figure it all out.

Hopefully that has made my thoughts a tad clearer, as being more than just a dream for Guts. So much more, it is now his life. 29 chapters and 16 years later, we don't know his path anymore than he does. Excellent. 8)

- C

Re: Will Guts Become Griffith?

No, I don't think Guts will end up just like Griffith. Although there are parallels between the two characters.

Guts seems to realize that Casca is more important to him now than just fighting. Back when he left the Band of the Hawk, he thought all he desired was to fight those who were strong, like Zodd. After the eclipse that seems to be all he did. After he had returned after a year of leaving the hawks, he told Casca, after they had consummated their relationship, that he would like more than anything to be able to spend more time with her. Then again, after the eclipse when he left for two years, he vowed to himself, not to leave her ever again. So it sure would seem that Casca is more important to him now than to just fight strong warriors. Although it will still be something he enjoys.

Agent_C said:

It just doesn't boil down to a certain dream of what they want, as a dream can change overnight. I think Guts ambition, whether he has realized it or not this whole time, is to find where he belongs in life. The path may change, from Griffith, to Casca, or what have you, but the destination is the same. He wants to find that happiness, and right now, actually for a while, maybe even before the day on top of the waterfall, he has wanted Casca. He just has to figure out how to get all the crap out of his path. Griffith, the Kushan, Serpico, many obstacles are in his path broadening the story. That's why he makes that kind of face, just trying to figure it all out.

- C

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I agree very much with this.

Re: Will Guts Become Griffith?

This is slightly off-topic/in-jest, but it came to mind when I was writing my previous response:

Remember that young boy with the knight doll who Griffith got killed by putting him in a battle?

Well, what if Isidoro is that boy for Guts? That would mean Isidoro getting killed off, and that's always a good thing!

Re: Will Guts Become Griffith?

Great post Agent C. Its your manifesto so far.

Agent_C said:

I was implying that Guts' ambition, which is not the same as a dream, is to have his love with Casca returned to him.

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I understand the desire to make the distinction between ambition and dream.   We'd like to seperate Guts' dream from Griffith's, as if they were that different in nature. But they're not.  Ambition and Dream are very close synonyms.  Each man has a goal.  But as you say, they go about it in completely different ways. You word it perfectly with:

You are correct that Guts does not sacrifice his friends, crew, team, whatever you call them, to make his wishes come true. He actually sacrifices himself, example of his arm for Casca.

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Guts' current dream is protecting Casca. Avenging the Hawks is in the shadow of that right now.  Think of the bonfire analogy from volume 7, and how the Hawks were gathered around Griffith, serving his dream. Their own dreams fueled his.  The same analogy works for the current situation. Isidro, Farnese, Schierke and Serpico (well...  ;) ) are all gathered around Guts to protect Casca by travelling to Elfhelm.  Their dreams overlap and fuel each other's.

Re: Will Guts Become Griffith?

Posted by: Walter Posted on: Today at 10:55:53 AM

Great post Agent C. Its your manifesto so far.

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Why thank you. Usually I get on too late and someone already has replied with what I want to say. I was first on this one though. 8)

- C

Re: Will Guts Become Griffith?

Agent_C said:

The path may change, from Griffith, to Casca, or what have you, but the destination is the same. He wants to find that happiness, and right now, actually for a while, maybe even before the day on top of the waterfall, he has wanted Casca. He just has to figure out how to get all the crap out of his path. Griffith, the Kushan, Serpico, many obstacles are in his path broadening the story. That's why he makes that kind of face, just trying to figure it all out.
- C

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I also thought this very interesting Mr. C. :) I've also often wondered whether guts is sort of going through different fazes, trying to figure out where he fits, what he wants to do with himself. Originally-- just fight, aimless. Then to serve Griffth, almost blindly. Then, now, to fight for Casca, to protect. Now, I don't mean to imply that I think Guts is going to eventually stop loving Casca and dump her.... ::chuckle:: Just that he's moved into a space where he is always sacrificing himself-- the arm, the armor, etc. I keep thinking that eventually he'll have to move into a new space or that he'll die or become something not really human anymore-- a new "stage" where perhaps he'll have to learn to help others, but not at the expense of his own humanity... or some such place. Mostly, I thought your post insightful and thoughtful, and I agreed with what you said-- and its those same thoughts that have led me to wonder where he'll go next.

Re: Will Guts Become Griffith?

::SMACK::
I do see parallels....but no I don't believe Guts or Miura for that matter will ever let that happen.....i mean if Gutts pulled an Anakin Skywalker...who would be Luke...the moon child...ISIDRO.....Gutts will never become another Griffith....

Re: Will Guts Become Griffith?

I agree that there are parallels between Guts and Griffith but i think like most people here seem to think that it is more that they are both totally dedicated to their own path/dream. However there dream takes them in totally different directions rather than Guts follwing a similar coarse to Griffith he is following a different coarse but he is following it just as intensely and is as dedicated to it as Griffith is to his.

Re: Will Guts Become Griffith?

Replying a bit late, but I'd like to thank you again guys for making an interesting and enlightening discussion out of this thread. :)

QuestionMark said:

Just that he's moved into a space where he is always sacrificing himself-- the arm, the armor, etc. I keep thinking that eventually he'll have to move into a new space or that he'll die or become something not really human anymore-- a new "stage" where perhaps he'll have to learn to help others, but not at the expense of his own humanity...

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Well, the biggest deal here is the context. Does he have the choice, the possibility not to lose himself while fighting again such monstruous creatures as the apostles or such powerful entities as God Hand members?

Re: Will Guts Become Griffith?

Aazealh said:

Well, the biggest deal here is the context. Does he have the choice, the possibility not to lose himself while fighting again such monstruous creatures as the apostles or such powerful entities as God Hand members?

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I agree. And franky, part of me says no-- not if he's going to be successful at it. That's he's just not strong enough. I guess it's that that bugs me (frustrates me)-- I don't (in the end) see any other real options for Guts, as of now, other than to become something inhuman, in order to fight them.

However, having typed that, I also see how this path Guts is taking now-- forming a group, allowing himself to be helped-- that perhaps that will be the only other path. Basically, he's recognizing that he can't do it by himself. Perhaps with the help of magic users, etc. other options will come to fruition. Who knows what awaits at Elfhelm?

But for now, I don't see any other real options. Obviously, there's no way he and the group can beat The Band of the Hawk as they are now. Something will have to change-- others will need to join the group, and those in the group will have to become more powerful as well I would assume.

Mostly, I don't see many alternatives for Guts as things stand now, but I keep hoping some will come to light. It's that that is frustrating-- I'd like to see some sort of escape valve. At the same time, it's that sense of a Catch-22 that gives Berserk its real tension and interest for me.

Re: Will Guts Become Griffith?

Within the context of 'causality' as defined within the framework of Berserk, it is unlikely that Guts could sacrifice his comrades, his 'family', for either his dream or his life. He has changed from the character we were introduced to waay back in the Black Swordsman and Retribution Arcs. Moreover, the Godhand have already declared that he is not ordained by the laws of causality, haven't they? The paths they take are a spiral, so they may parallel each other in certain aspects, but make no mistake: they are seperate paths.

Re: Will Guts Become Griffith?

Herald of Yama said:

Moreover, the Godhand have already declared that he is not ordained by the laws of causality, haven't they?

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Nope. Skull Knight told him he could change things during the incarnation ceremony, but that's it as far as I remember.

Herald of Yama said:

The paths they take are a spiral, so they may parallel each other in certain aspects, but make no mistake: they are seperate paths.

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I'm not sure it's proper to use the spiral analogy here, but anyway their paths definitely differ, even though they might share some similarities.

Re: Will Guts Become Griffith?

Denial said:

This is slightly off-topic/in-jest, but it came to mind when I was writing my previous response:

Remember that young boy with the knight doll who Griffith got killed by putting him in a battle?

Well, what if Isidro is that boy for Guts? That would mean Isidro getting killed off, and that's always a good thing!

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I happen to like Isidro so you take that back or I will unleash the fury of the blood god on you!

ps. Just kidding 8)(about the fury part)

Re: Will Guts Become Griffith?

Khorne said:

I happen to like Isidro so you take that back or I will unleash the fury of the blood god on you!

ps. Just kidding 8)(about the fury part)

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Too much Warhammer...Guts could kill a Bloodthirster...

Re: Will Guts Become Griffith?

No. Absolutely not. First of all, the inner demon guts is fighting is very different from griffith's evil, in my opinion, and second of all, if he repeated what griffith did, it'd take away his entire personality and it wouldn't make sense, if Guts followed griffith's actions, I'd hunt down Miura and kill him for making such a sad cliche to such a great story.

Re: Will Guts Become Griffith?

No, the key to making a great protagonist antagonist relationship is to have them both follow a similar path but with them both stepping off to their respective sides in key moments. Griffith has already chosen his side at the Eclipse where he took on the Antagonist role. Guts hasn't really has such an extreme "Misery or easyway out" choice yet but I'm pretty sure he'll do the "moral" thing.

Re: Will Guts Become Griffith?

No. At worst he'd only become one with the berserker armor.