Who is the best swordsman after Guts?

eintrigga

Today's Yamaba?
only humans allowed, so no scums like zodd is considered..

the obvious answer should be Griffith, but Serpico could be a better swordsman....
remember, Griffith was defeated by Guts b4 he was the blackswordsman, but Guts never quite defeated Serpico (that weasel got away twice) --not to mention Serpico is one of the few and the proud that actually scratched Guts while keeping every single body parts altogether

i suppose Silatt is also a good candidate too, so i guess i'm asking for the BBS's opinion on this
 

White_Hawk

The Only True Free Spirit / Dark Horse Rider
Caska is very good when she's at it...
I would mention griffy too, but he's too supernatural...
I don't see sillat in the picture.Gatsu made a jerk out of him everytime they met.
 

Walter

Administrator
Staff member
Caska is very good when she's at it...
I would mention griffy too, but he's too supernatural...
I don't see sillat in the picture.Gatsu made a jerk out of him everytime they met.
Everyone forgets about Boscogne...Sniff...

Griffith as a human was rather powerful, relatively. He just got sidetracked.

Silatt is hard to judge because the only one hes ever really fought is Guts, who he lost to twice HORRIBLY. Then again, thats Guts. Hes not the best comparison.

Casca? Yeah she was pretty good, but nowhere near the afformentioned people. She beat Adon, and a few random yahoos. But then again, theres the relative strength thing. Its hard to judge.

Serpico again, difficult to judge, but I think its accurate to say that he is within the top 5 strongest. Serpico fought Guts twice, and had a distinct (cheap) advantage over Guts. 1) Guts was extremely worn out in volume 17 when they dueled. 2) volume 19's fight involved the sun in Guts eyes, the fact that he couldnt draw his sword, and his footing was off. Serpico had every advantage. Cheap, and not exactly comparison-worthy.

Dont forget about Azan. Hes pretty damned up there in strength as well. He gave Guts a good runaround in volume 16, and fended off the demons in volumes 20-21 rather well.

The best besides Guts? Hmm....My vouch is for Puck.
 
2) volume 19's fight involved the sun in Guts eyes, the fact that he couldnt draw his sword, and his footing was off. Serpico had every advantage. Cheap, and not exactly comparison-worthy.

Yeah, but Serpico made it so. I mean, it wasn't "luck".
 

Walter

Administrator
Staff member
Of cource it wasnt, however it is difficult to make a direct comparison between the two because of the circumstances.
 

eintrigga

Today's Yamaba?
Yeah, but Serpico made it so. I mean, it wasn't "luck".

kinda like what venom said in his penultimate bout with carnage in the maximum carnage arc: "yeah, you might be right about being faster and stronger. but we are smarter, craftier and a whole lot DEADLIER!" *smacks carnage with a large piece of wood*

damn, i forgot about boscone....that guy kicked a lot of ass...i'm guess azan would be a good match for him...(i didn't mention azan before cuz i was thinking in terms of swords, but ah well, might as well make it the best fighter next to guts)
 

Wereallmad

I love YaBB 1 Gold!
The fight in volume 17 wasn't much of a fight.

Serpico scartches Guts, and Guts shredded Serpico's boots.

If Guts had reacted a bit later, he could have easily been killed. And had Serpico done the same, he would have lost both his legs.

The fight on the mountain in volume 19 showed, to me anyway, that Serpico is probably very closely matched with Guts.

Yes indeed, the sun was in Guts' eyes, the ledge was too narrow for Guts to manuver with his heavy armor, and Guts was unable to draw his sword.

But you must remember that it was Serpico's swordskill that prevented Guts from using his weapons.

In addition, Serpico is most definately much faster than Guts. He managed to dodge crossboy fire at point blank, and manage to steal a hand-grenade from Guts at the same time.
 

Walter

Administrator
Staff member
If trajection dear sirs is the truith. Then strength of almighty one would power up the Guts.  ;)

Gaiseric con 1000 years of agreeance. They wouldnt even know?   ;) ;)

Dear Wereallmad, you have an excellent education, instead.
;)
 

aelka

*gasp* you know how hot I am? *no.*
I think Serpico is, simply because a great swordsman is not solely based on strength, but equally, if not more, on tactics based on the knowledge about oneself's ability. He's sure smarter than Gatts at this sense; at least he knows how to stay alive instead of betting on he won't die after any attacks.
 

White_Hawk

The Only True Free Spirit / Dark Horse Rider
well, the fact that serpico uses brains swifter than his blade is no reason to downgrade him. It almost seems Miura is post poning the match between him and Gatsu. Problem is, if you lose to Gatsu, you generally end up in a few pieces, so it would be a waste of a character.
Azan, on the other hand, is skilled, but I have no doubt Gatsu would injure him badly, and may spare his life too. He did show some sympathy towards the "poor old man".
But Azan is ok. Kinda Dragonlance Solamnia ok.
It seems that Gatsu is simply the strongest man around. His first clean defeat was against zodd, so it takes more than human to beat our hero.
Human griffis is by far the only serious opposition to gatsu skills.But he's dead, so screw him.
Lately, I kinda like to think of old Griffis as "a dream called griffis". So melanchonic. Sniff.
 

eintrigga

Today's Yamaba?
Human griffis is by far the only serious opposition to gatsu skills.

old griffith lost terribly to guts (and this is the old guts) in their final duel...otherwise, he would be, no doubt, the best swordsman, after guts that is...i want to see a match between serpico and griffith, skill vs talent, brain vs finesse...

serpico is one helluva tough swordsman -- he uses the saber like one badmother-- (for someone like me who does saber, Serpico is like a freak'n GOD!)
 

Wereallmad

I love YaBB 1 Gold!
Grifffith is indeed, inhumanly strong. He was capable of defending against the weight of Guts' sword when they first met. It's very true that Guts was gravely injured, but even still, with a sword as slender as Griffith's, it's essentialy an impossibility to do what he did.

I kinda think serpico might win against Griffith though. His speed is something that hasn't been demonstrated by ANY character in Berserk. If Grifffith and Serpico were matched in physical strength, then it would essentialy be no contest. If Griffith is considerably stronger (no real indication that Serpico would be capable of defending an attack by Guts' previous sword), then it gets a bit tricky.

It's obvious though, that Serpico is indeed powerfull.

Azan seems pretty strong as well. Though Guts probably could have killed him relatively easily. He did put up quite a fight.

Jerome may never appear again, so it might be pointless to speculate, but one could wonder exactly how skilled a swordsman he is. He dispatched one of Moskas' underlings with a somewhat impressive (single) sword swing. He also seems to be trained to use a lance.
 

viridis

lost in the swirling mist
In regards to the first match between Guts and Griffith, and the comments about Griffith's slender sword defending against's Guts' insanely large one, Griffith did this more by parrying/turning aside Guts' blows than by directly blocking them. That's the finesse part.

There's a scene in Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon, where (if my memory serves me, as I've already forgotten all the names) the girl who stole the Green Destiny sword is fighting the guy whom it belonged to. At one point he defends against her attacks with a stick he picked up, because he doesn't directly counter her attacks, he just gently turns them aside so they miss. Now, this was indeed exaggerated in the movie, but the basic concept holds true.

That's what was going on with Griffith and Guts, and why Griffith's slender sword was sufficient. Guts generally only cuts through other swords when he strikes them head-on.

*contributes his meager opinion on the matter*
 

eintrigga

Today's Yamaba?
There's a scene in Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon, where (if my memory serves me, as I've already forgotten all the names) the girl who stole the Green Destiny sword is fighting the guy whom it belonged to. At one point he defends against her attacks with a stick he picked up, because he doesn't directly counter her attacks, he just gently turns them aside so they miss. Now, this was indeed exaggerated in the movie, but the basic concept holds true.

That's what was going on with Griffith and Guts, and why Griffith's slender sword was sufficient. Guts generally only cuts through other swords when he strikes them head-on.

*contributes his meager opinion on the matter*

just an addition/support: in one of the chinese-sword theories, a wooden stick is an equal to the sharpest/most powerful sword if the edges never meet (while the flat of the sword is an equal to the stick)

therefore, back in the glorious days of chinese martial arts -- the ideal, if not the fantasy, of the swordsmen were to wield a stick instead of a sword....of course, this is to provide that their usage of "chi/ki" were strong enough that the stick can actually kill someone besides being able to parry the flat of the blade...
 

Griffith

With the streak of a tear, Like morning dew
Ahhh, this looks like fun

1. Guts – I don’t think Guts would have any problem taking out Serpico in a straight fight, moreover; Serpico isn’t even in Guts’ league. First, I frankly don’t see why Serpico is supposed have some kind of super speed advantage. Guts is just as fast as Serpico, when they drew on each other (17) nobody got the advantage, and Guts wasn’t just swinging a saber either. Let me put it this way, how many seconds do you think Serpico’s quickness would allow him to survive against the likes of Nosferatu Zodd (human form) and HIS speed in combat. I think the only way Serpico could really have a chance against Guts is if he stayed on the offensive the entire fight and the terrain gave him an advantage.

2. Silat – Someone has to give Silat some credit here. He’s not only an incredible fighter, certainly the most agile, but he’s the only one in the series who comes close to Guts in versatility; he could kill you five different ways before you hit the ground. Forget that he lost to Guts twice; the fact that he lost to Guts twice and is still ALIVE is what’s important (Tapasa would be number two on my list but they’re a group and they are really weird, so I’m discriminating against them, ha ha ha!).

3. Boscone – Don’t really have to elaborate much on this one, everyone knows this guy was a real monster, he fought crazy (he’d get that same mad look in his eye) like Guts and he wiped out Hawk soldiers like he was an Apostle. He even technically defeated Guts, the poor bastard.

4. Griffith – Again, I don’t think Serpico is any faster than Griffith is, or a better swordsman. In volume 5 Griffith managed to jump on top of a sword that was being swung down upon him (really fast too), he was also blinded by debris at the time. It wasn’t only an amazing feat of speed, but a complete disregard for the laws of Physics.

5. Serpico – Can’t deny his awesome sword ability, speed and intelligence. He’s great, but I don’t really think he could compete with the guys above without a handicap in his favor (such as waiting for them on a ledge). Also, we haven’t really seen him in a real battle, just short confrontations; it’s hard to judge just how skillful he is from that, how long could he really last fighting someone like Guts or Boscone?

About as long as it takes Mr. Owl to eat a Tootsie Roll Pop in my estimation. :)

Honorable Mentions: Azan’s a badass, but his fight with Guts wasn’t that impressive. Guts was dead on his feet, even the ghosts had K.O.ed him, and the opportunity he used to attack Farnese he could have easily used to kill Azan on the spot.

-Griffith
 
First, I frankly don’t see why Serpico is supposed have some kind of super speed advantage.

It's not just the speed. In volume 18, he was able to use Guts' own weapons (_new_ weapons that he didn't know about just before) against him and to get away without Guts noticing. Damn impressive, I'd say.

Guts is just as fast as Serpico, when they drew on each other (17) nobody got the advantage,

Guts was wounded, not Serpico. ^^

and Guts wasn’t just swinging a saber either.

Well, that would be Guts' problem, wouldn't it? ^_^

Let me put it this way, how many seconds do you think Serpico’s quickness would allow him to survive against the likes of Nosferatu Zodd (human form) and HIS speed in combat.

Agreed, Serpico isn't used to fight non-human foes like Guts is. But I'd say no human is, anyway. ^^;

About Sirat:
Forget that he lost to Guts twice; the fact that he lost to Guts twice and is still ALIVE is what’s important

The first time was during a tournament, so him being alive after that isn't that impressive, in my opinion...
 
Did you all forget Judeau and Pipin?!?

About Judeau, he was most deadly with his two-sword fighting skill, (as we see here and there in the manga), though he was prone to use daggers in his biggest confrontations (Barkilaka, Apostles) ...

Pipin blocked along with Gats the charge of the Black Dogs and stood bravely against several apostles...
I guess that his physical strenght was superior to Gats' in his old days.
 

icefall

I need more sleep -_- zzz
Everyone forgets about Boscogne...Sniff...

He was my first thought before I even read your post  ;)

I'm definitely down with Boscogne... followed by Silat and Serpico. Last but not least I'd have to go with Grif whose strategy behind the swordplay seemed to tower over his actual strength.

Boscogne-sama!!!
 

White_Hawk

The Only True Free Spirit / Dark Horse Rider
Well we should consider that Silatt seems to be "upgraded", since when he fought gattsu he was sort of a buffoon character, while now he's pretty serious. However, everything miura did was planned in advance.
 
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