Farnese, Casca, and Guts-- similar dynamics to the Band of the Hawk??

As I've watched Gut's little band forming, I've often thought of the Band of the Hawk, and what their earlier stages might have been like.

I was also recently re-reading the 6th? volume of the manga, where Casca talks about how she met Griffith, and her description of it-- of her feeling of powerlessness, and how Griffith handed her a sword instead of killing the nobleman himself, etc. ,-- those sorts of details really brought Farnese's relationship with Guts to mind. The respect bordering on adoration at times, etc. and the way that Guts' has sort of helped her empower herself.

I'm not saying they're a perfect paralell by any stretch of the imagination-- Farnese is not Casca obviously--, but I have often thought that there are similar sorts of dynamics going on in the new group. Guts as the power figure, with is own agenda at times, Farnese following him/ half-adoring him. I've also often thought that once Casca comes back into the picture as an active person, that that will throw off a lot of the balance that they were all trying to create. In some ways, if that were to happen, that would remind me a lot of Guts' entering the Band of the Hawk, and how that threw everything out of whack for her.

A lot of the "paralells" remind me more of Skullknight's description of history more as a spiral than a straight line-- similar,but with opportunities for change. Not a duplication.

Still, there are certain current relationships that remind me of former ones--
(for the sake of simplicity, I'm putting in equal's signs, but I dont' really consider these truly equal, just similar or reminiscent)

Farnese to Guts = Casca to Griffith
and perhaps,
Guts to Casca = future Casca to Farnese

Also, dipping further into speculation, and yet based on Skullknight's whole "she may not want what you want" statement to Guts, I wonder if Casca'll end up sort of throwing Guts off, making him feel betrayed in some way, as she may very well act on her own, counter to his dreams, thus continuing the equation to the possibility of

Casca to Guts = Guts to Griffith

Basically-- Farnese= Casca, Casca= Guts, Guts= Griffith
to put it in a nutshell.

I agree mainly with the similarities of Farnese to Guts as Casca to Griffith was. They both do have that same "Wow!!" admiration going on. I see Serpico as Corkus Jr. though. ;D I also see Isidoro as a new Puck, as Puck turns into a guy that has just seen destruction from Guts for a while. Miura might be building up a similar type of band to show the real difference between Guts and Griffith. That being, of course, that Guts will not sacrifice his band, or family as he calls it, to get ahead. I believe one of his small goals is to have some type of family, and his new band being it. I could be wrong and Miura could be planning something different. It does kinda seem like the bonds are getting stronger between the people around Guts though. Also, I thought about what would happen if the situation occurres where Griffith sees the people around Guts act as a family to help, or even protect and sacrifice themselves for Guts. Not sacrifice as Griffith's soldiers did, just to obey commands, but sacrifice themselves out of love and respect for Guts and what he is trying to do. Sorry, I was just thinking of how that would make Griffith feel so bad because he has never had anyone ever love him so, even Charlotte. Charlotte sees Griffith as a first love, and we all know how that is. No matter what they do, you still love them. I am rambling about two or three different thoughts at once. Back to your main point, I do see some similarities in Guts' new group. Feel free to express your thoughts on how you think Griffith would react to people sacrificing themselves for love of Guts, not just orders.

- C

C said:

I see Serpico as Corkus Jr. though.  ;D
- C

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lol, Got to ponder that comparison awhile. They both make themselves pains in the ass to Gatsu? Aside from a group dynamic Serpico is most like Griffith, replacing devotion to the dream with Farnese.

As far a group roles Gatsu and Griffith are both fascinating figures that compel people to them though. Farnese, Jill, Ishidoro, Caska, all the hawks, the witch and the psychic, and mule who cried... he's a wierd guy >_> Anyway I think alot of them fit that follower role not just caska and farnese.

Posted by: Serpico Posted on: Today at 04:40:40 PM

Serpico is most like Griffith, replacing devotion to the dream with Farnese.

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I disagree. Griffith chased his dream with ambition, constantly overcoming obstacles in his way to make a better future for himself, and Midland or so he thought. Serpico has no ambition in his dream with Farnese, if you can really call it a dream. I think of it more as a desire. No ambition or devotion, just selfishness. If he really had an ambition or dream to be with, or be there for Farnese, do you think he would really intentionally put himself in danger by fighting Guts? He selfishly desires to defeat Guts, not necessarily kill him, but if that's what it takes. Another example, just to make my thought more clear, is when Griffith killed the governor, or Barron can't remember, in the last battle where Guts fought Boscone. Griffith rode up to the Governor on horse back, stuck his sword in his skull after a few words. Griffith had no desires to kill this man, he was a tool, just needed a stepping stone. Serpico truly desires to beat Guts, and now seems the right time to him. That is a simple goal in his selfish desires, another which is Farnese, but that's a different thread. ;D

- C

C said:

I disagree. Griffith chased his dream with ambition, constantly overcoming obstacles in his way to make a better future for himself, and Midland or so he thought. Serpico has no ambition in his dream with Farnese, if you can really call it a dream. I think of it more as a desire. No ambition or devotion, just selfishness. If he really had an ambition or dream to be with, or be there for Farnese, do you think he would really intentionally put himself in danger by fighting Guts? He selfishly desires to defeat Guts, not necessarily kill him, but if that's what it takes. Another example, just to make my thought more clear, is when Griffith killed the governor, or Barron can't remember, in the last battle where Guts fought Boscone. Griffith rode up to the Governor on horse back, stuck his sword in his skull after a few words. Griffith had no desires to kill this man, he was a tool, just needed a stepping stone. Serpico truly desires to beat Guts, and now seems the right time to him. That is a simple goal in his selfish desires, another which is Farnese, but that's a different thread. ;D

- C

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Griffith had far more ambitious goals, but thats about where the differences end. They are both very selfish and extremely devoted. It would be hard to argue Griffith isnt selfish, or Serpico isnt devoted. Way too many examples to even list, but Serpico has done countless things he did not want to do for Farnese. And Griffith obviously sacrificed a great many for his own goal. He was especially selfish in his possession of Guts. I dunno why you'd say selfishness would separate them, its jsut another thing that binds them

I can see all the points both of you are making about Serpico reminding you in some ways of Corkus and of Guts. I was waiting for something like this in the thread.

I never really intended the comparison to lead to a "who's the new Judeau", "who's the new Pippin" and "who's the new Corkus" sort of thing (although Isidoro does remind me of Pippin's role in the old group). I mean, obviously this group isn't exactly like the last one-- largely thanks characters such Serpico and Schierke, who don't really fit into the same sort of system of power dynamics as the Band of the Hawk.

Mostly, I thought the _relationships_ certain people had with other people seemed similar to certain other relationships.

So, although I see how both Serpico and Griffith share a similar sort of devotion to a dream, that's about as far as I'd go with that comparison. And although you brought up lots of followers-- Jill, Mule, Isidoro, etc.-- none of those people really duplicated in such a specific way the type of relationship Casca had to Griffith and that Farnese shares with Guts. Or so it seems to me.

And C, you were going right where I was going with this whole comparison-- largely, what might Miura have up his sleeve by creating power dynamics like these again? And what is he hoping to show about Guts versus Griffith? How will this band end up, will he use the behelit? Or will he choose a different path from Griffith, given similar choices.... etc etc...

Serpico has some good points, but I still do not see Griffith and Serpico as that similar. They do share a few traits, but so do pickup trucks. They all have engines, beds, etc, hopefully you get the point. Griffith had a plan, to be the king. No matter how long it takes, or what he has to do, that is his plan. Yes, maybe a little selfishness seeps in, but we all do selfish things sometimes. Serpico has no long term plan really. He is just spontaneously doing what he thinks will be the best for Serpico, and to a lesser extent Farnese, to fulfill his desires. That is what I was saying was the difference between the two. If Miura does use this to build a comparison between Guts and Griffith, like you are speculating ?, (Your new nickname QuestionMark ;D), then I don't really see the use of the behelit by Serpico or anyone in the band. I could be wrong of course, because in a game of cards after Miura pulls out the Ace from his sleeve, he hits you with the crowbar he was holding in his other hand the whole time. :-X (Excellent 8))

- C

C said:

If Miura does use this to build a comparison between Guts and Griffith, like you are speculating ?

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Actually, I think this is more of what Serpico was speculating. I was just trying to not be arguementative. Personally, I see only the most tenuous paralells between Serpico and Griffith (your example of what all trucks share was about how I feel). I see far more paralells between Guts and Griffith.

?, (Your new nickname QuestionMark ;D)

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Ooooohhhh!! I like it! :)

I think we're pretty much on the same page about Serpico (the character).

The current era of the series is ripe with the fruits of Guts’ development as a character. At this point in the series, it is child’s play to compare his current maturity to his aimless, Isidro-esque beginnings. But, as QuestionMark’s original equation shows, when you compare individuals between these eras, it gets convoluted. Themes and roles however, often transfer seamlessly.

Serpico and Guts are currently in a duel that, in many ways, parallels the final duel between Guts and Griffith. But, this doesn’t make Serpico = Guts. And, as QuestionMark says, Farnese has much in common with Guts. However, this doesn’t make Farnese = Guts either. Serpico is merely the arm, actualizing Farnese’s “wish” to leave the Band by severing the bond. Together, the Guts parallel works. But as individuals, it’s incomplete.

I think C was very close to the mark when he said Serpico has much in common with Carcus. As I’m sure many of you not-so-fondly remember, in the Golden Age, Carcus did his best (which certainly wasn’t enough) to keep Guts down. While he came off as merely antagonistic, in reality, he was protecting Griffith from the danger Guts posed to the Hawks’ equilibrium. Carcus was Causality’s failsafe to cataclysmic change (of course, it wasn’t so cataclysmic. Causality has many branches. And ultimately, everything came to pass without a hitch.). Similarly, Serpico has been an egg protecting Farnese, whose shell even now buffers her from conflict with the outside world. However, at this point, Serpico’s devotion to Farnese is holding her back from development.

The parallels you begin to see once you open the door to them are hundred-fold. Compare Guts’ speech during the Bonfire of Dreams episode in volume 7 to the current era. Each of the Hawks had their own reasons for being members, but they each added their torch to Griffith’s flame. Think of Schierke and Isidro’s motivations for being in the Band and their intrinsic devotion to Guts’ own Bonfire. Like Guts in the Golden Age, Farnese and Serpico may have been merely warming themselves by the fire. It may be their (or perhaps only her?) time to move on and develop independently. Then again, it could just be Serpico’s time to DIE.

Also, dipping further into speculation, and yet based on Skullknight's whole "she may not want what you want" statement to Guts, I wonder if Casca'll end up sort of throwing Guts off, making him feel betrayed in some way, as she may very well act on her own, counter to his dreams

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I honestly can’t even begin to speculate what choices a revived Casca would make. However (and I can only call it a hunch), I doubt a complete parallel of Griffith’s Golden Age “fall” would occur with Guts.

PS: Then again… now got me thinking.

This topic diverged into Guts Vs Serpico and the rest can be found in Episode 255's thread, in the middle of Page 8, which is here.