Author Topic: Metal Gear Solid 4 and Metal Gear Solid: 3 Subsitence  (Read 4135 times)

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Offline Rage Incarnate

Metal Gear Solid 4 and Metal Gear Solid: 3 Subsitence
« on: May 21, 2005, 12:51:13 AM »
Though just out of E3 the new info gives plenty new information to speculate on.  I thought it was worthy of it's own thread.  If mods disagree close it down.

Kojima is confirmed as not taking the back seat of MGS4 as he suggested.  What does everyone make of "No place to hide." in the trailer?  In another interview Hideo explained it meant that people will look at the new enviroment and ask themselves "How in the hell am I supposed to hide there?"  If you have not seen the trailer here it is in Windows Media Player on Game Trailers:
http://wm1.streaming.ne.jp/konami2/kojimapro_e32k5_e_n4v8.asf

Also MGS: 3 Subsitence has fixed the problems that plagued the incredible MGS.  Full control of camera angles, online versus mode and a one on one versus mode against the bosses.
There's one simple rule here, and it's universal: you shalt not be stupid. It really shouldn't be too hard to follow.  - Aazealh
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Offline Woland

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Re: Metal Gear Solid 4 and Metal Gear Solid: 3 Subsitence
« Reply #1 on: May 21, 2005, 01:35:35 AM »
Heh.  Kojima always says it's his last Metal Gear, but keeps coming back.  Hard to tell how it will play considering they used a PS2 demo for a game coming to PS3.
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Offline Psymont 2.0

Re: Metal Gear Solid 4 and Metal Gear Solid: 3 Subsitence
« Reply #2 on: May 21, 2005, 02:40:11 PM »
that was pretty funny... everybody booed when they saw jack...

so, what are your thoughts on jack?

Offline Rage Incarnate

Re: Metal Gear Solid 4 and Metal Gear Solid: 3 Subsitence
« Reply #3 on: May 21, 2005, 04:03:33 PM »
I got new info of MGS.com.  This is the confirmed character list for now:

- Vamp
- Meryl Silverburgh
- Raiden
- Revolver Ocelot / Liquid Snake
- Solid Snake
- Hal "Otacon" Emmerich
- Big Boss
- Naomi Hunter

It is from Fumotsu magazine or something.  This can change between now and the final product.
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Offline Aazealh

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Re: Metal Gear Solid 4 and Metal Gear Solid: 3 Subsitence
« Reply #4 on: May 21, 2005, 05:29:15 PM »
I got new info of MGS.com.  This is the confirmed character list for now: [...]
It is from Fumotsu magazine or something.  This can change between now and the final product.

That's pretty much who I guessed they were on the "preview sketches", so if Famitsu's saying they'll be in, I don't think it's going to change.

Offline Rage Incarnate

Re: Metal Gear Solid 4 and Metal Gear Solid: 3 Subsitence
« Reply #5 on: May 21, 2005, 06:08:14 PM »
That's pretty much who I guessed they were on the "preview sketches", so if Famitsu's saying they'll be in, I don't think it's going to change.

I agree, but still wanted a sort of disclaimer.
There's one simple rule here, and it's universal: you shalt not be stupid. It really shouldn't be too hard to follow.  - Aazealh
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Offline Psymont 2.0

Re: Metal Gear Solid 4 and Metal Gear Solid: 3 Subsitence
« Reply #6 on: May 21, 2005, 10:14:01 PM »
i would really like to the nes versions redone... that would be interesting...

"i am tired"... "zzz i am asleep"  ;D

Offline NeoBerserker

Re: Metal Gear Solid 4 and Metal Gear Solid: 3 Subsitence
« Reply #7 on: May 22, 2005, 12:14:47 AM »
i would really like to the nes versions redone... that would be interesting...

"i am tired"... "zzz i am asleep"  ;D

That would be awsome. Or something with Big Boss, i'd rather play as Big Boss. C'mon, he has a frickin eye patch. Well at least your suppose to play as Solid Snake rather than Raiden.
"Yet in the end you couldn't make it go away, because others could rely on you, but you couldn't rely on them." -Major Motoko Kusanagi

Offline Yukimura

Re: Metal Gear Solid 4 and Metal Gear Solid: 3 Subsitence
« Reply #8 on: May 22, 2005, 04:37:20 AM »
Well at least your suppose to play as Solid Snake rather than Raiden.
I think you will have to play as both because Mgs4 takes place where Mgs2 left off.
It would be great to play as Raiden because you can get the story from both sides.
Anyway Subsistence will have an online mode that supports up to six players. The idea behind it is that it will still play roughly like the single-player game, but you'll be working in teams of three as you attempt to take out the opposing side in team battle mode. You can also play Snake vs. enemies, a one-against-five configuration, if you're feeling especially stealthy. Also The additional face paints that only ended up in the European release of MGS3 will be included.
Ps. Whats so bad about Raiden, i mean the whole "I dont want to kill" thing pissed me off but when you played has him he wasnt bad.
I got new info of MGS.com. This is the confirmed character list for now:

- Vamp
- Meryl Silverburgh
- Raiden
- Revolver Ocelot / Liquid Snake
- Solid Snake
- Hal "Otacon" Emmerich
- Big Boss
- Naomi Hunter
I dont see Liquid Snake there, and last time i checked he died of "Foxdie".  Anyway if you look at vamps picture closey, theres a buttle wound in his head, and jacks picture shows him with a baby.(rose's baby)


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Offline Aazealh

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Re: Metal Gear Solid 4 and Metal Gear Solid: 3 Subsitence
« Reply #9 on: May 22, 2005, 10:11:27 AM »
i would really like to the nes versions redone... that would be interesting...

"i am tired"... "zzz i am asleep"  ;D

Buy a NDS. 8)

Offline Yukimura

Re: Metal Gear Solid 4 and Metal Gear Solid: 3 Subsitence
« Reply #10 on: May 22, 2005, 04:02:24 PM »
I think Silicon Knights( With Konami) Might bring it back but i dont think it will be on ps2 (if Silicon Knights make it)
Anyway found an Q&A thingy

Quote
Hideo Kojima is one of those rare game designers who need no introduction. The mastermind behind Metal Gear sat down with us for an exclusive chat about his new development studio, Kojima Productions, and the future of its projects.

GameSpot: How did Kojima Productions come about? Why did you decide it was time to go in that direction?

Hideo Kojima: Well, for about 10 years, we had a kind of smaller company called Konami Japan, and in that there was the Kojima team, and we had, we were a publicly listed company, so we had responsibility, a different responsibility, and we had the feed on our own.

Well, in that era, we had a small team, which enabled us to maneuver very quickly, and that was quite good. But at the same time, I was burdened with management work and creative work 50/50. I had to split my time on both management and creativity.

Well, and then back in April, Konami Japan and all the other independent studios merged together by Konami HQ, and we formed Konami Group. And underneath that, we decided to start on Kojima Productions.

Well, since we're now under the Konami Group umbrella, that means we have lots of backup in terms of resources like human resources, or budgeting, costs, and development costs. Therefore, you know, I could totally concentrate on creating good things, or the things, the titles, that could be a hit.

So the main purpose actually going further down is that I will not, therefore, concentrate so much on the business side or the management side. Now I can concentrate totally on the creativity side to create good games, to create high-quality games.

So what, you know, for Kojima Productions, where I would like to aim is not just personally my name, Kojima Hideo by itself, but I decided to name it Kojima Productions because I have the staff working. So think of it like Pixar or maybe DreamWorks. We would like to be recognized in the very near future so that anything that comes out of Kojima Productions will be received as high-level, high-quality titles.

GS: So do you see Kojima Productions as being more of a Pixar, which is more known for a certain style, or DreamWorks, which is broader?

HK: Well, basically, in the past era of the initial game-creating era, there was an era where good games sold and were the hits and were not driven by license or marketing or PR. Of course, it's a hit business market we're in, so I could understand. However, I'm with a team, and most of them worked together for about 10 or so years. So what our goal is, is to maybe revive those good old days to prove that if you create a good game, it will sell. So in that sense, I think it's not for a broad audience maybe; it's maybe more known to more deeper, a very high-quality...we would like to be known as a deep, high-quality production staff.

GS: Once they decided to do Kojima Productions, how did you settle on the logo?

HK: So first when we set up Kojima Productions, you know, we were known worldwide with Metal Gear and Snake, so just like the, you know, the ET logo that they have, we thought of using the Snake as our identification logo.

And we actually thought about creating Snake with a gun silhouette, that kind of logo type, but it really didn't hit the bell to any of our staff. So that's when we thought, "OK, why not take the step a little bit backwards. Where does the Snake belong? Oh yeah, he belongs to [Foxhound], the fox group, so we should try to create a logo based on the fox."

Well a fox, the animal itself, probably has the same reputation worldwide. It's kind of like sneaky or deceiving to people or some animals. So we wanted to put that message in--in good terms actually. We wanted to surprise the people. We wanted to surprise the user, not to deceive but to surprise. So we had that meaning in the fox as well.

GS: How do you see Kojima Productions evolving?

HK: Well, Kojima Productions will keep on creating as many lines as possible. You saw the MGS series, like MGS4, MGS3, Subsistence. Also the [Acid] on the PSP platform. Also another line--that's called the MGS Series. And another series that Kojima Productions creates is the Bok-Tai series, which we will continue creating. And once MGS4 gets rolling, I would really like to start an original title, a totally original new concept title, and steadily I would like to stack up this series lineup in Kojima Productions with innovative and good games and new features.

Well, I don't want to go into a mass production line like, you know, the Hollywood movies these days. I really would like to prioritize the creativity of my staff and myself, including myself, so once we have crazy ideas, we'll see the market, and we'll find out if it fits, if it has room for that, and then we would like to pursue it, meaning we're not going to go after just the sales in creating a title. We would like to really, really prioritize creativity as number one.

If it was titled "Company," we're not allowed to do this, but since it's "Productions," now we're able to do it in this way.

 GS: Speaking of Boktai, how do you see the series evolving to fit either the DS or PSP?

HK: We are not thinking about PSP actually, but for DS, yes we already have this in the plan, and we have surprises that you can never imagine. And I can't tell you right now what the surprise is, but we do have a big trick up our sleeve, and you are sure to be surprised.

GS: Will we be surprised at TGS then?

HK: Probably so.

GS: How would you describe Metal Gear Solid 3: Subsistence? Is it a director's cut? Is it now everything that you ever wanted to put in the game, or is there still more?

HK: Well, actually, originally there was no plan to release Subsistence in the first place. The main purpose of Subsistence is two aspects: the camera (we are going to change the camera completely to 3D camera); and the second is the online aspect, meaning if we did not release Subsistence, that means we were going to put it in 4 anyways. We were experimenting both aspects even when we were creating MGS3, so because we had this Europe launch tour back in March for MGS3 and we heard from many European press and users that they want a game like Metal Gear 2: Substance.

Then, only after then, I decided to bring this Metal Gear 3: Subsistence out, and I thought it was the best timing to have the final touches of the experiment in terms of camera and in terms of online. So once we release this on Subsistence, we will be able to gather feedback from both issues from the users and then brush it up so that it evolves into MGSIV, and that is the main purpose actually.

GS: Well, that all sounds very easy, but was it?

HK: Well, quite frankly--yes. It sounds very simple when we say it like this, but actually it is quite difficult; however, online is a very, it's a normal thing these days, and the gaming on online is not in the near future, it is right there--meaning we were doing experiments and research on online in the first place because we thought this future would come. But on a business aspect, the online did not have a good business model. Therefore, we were reluctant to release it, so it stayed as an experiment.

On the 3D view aspect, the new camera aspect, this is a trend these days, and many users are now used to this 3D camera. Therefore, we thought both of them are perfect timing to fit in MGS3, but the main purpose is actually to get real feedback from MGS3: Subsistence.

Well, frankly speaking, when we were thinking about testing online, we of course thought about Xbox Live. They have a better infrastructure. However, we have to start from the conversion stage from the PS2 MGS3 to converting to Xbox, meaning it will take up more time and it might cause a delay for MGS4. Therefore, I did not want to do that. Although I know that the PS2 online users are not so much Xbox Live users, I am still confident that I can get good feedback on the online aspect.

GS: Can you give us some insight into the sense of humor displayed in the Metal Gear trailers and the actual games?

HK: Well first of all, MGS is a stealth combat technician-type game where you have to sneak in on a mission, so the tension is really high, and when you get spotted, really the users are really surprised.

Well, since it is a game, you cannot keep from start to end It is going to take like tens and twenties of hours to clear the game, and you cannot keep this tension to the users from start to end, it will not last. I mean people can lapse with this tension.

So there needs to be a location where a laughter or "ease" stage were to come--ease from the tension needs to be there in order to actually ease the people on continuing to play the game. At the same time, start from scratch to bring up the tension level again. This is the same way that Hitchcock does it in the Hitchcock movies. So in scary movies, there is a scene of laughter so that everyone mellows down and then start to rise, the tension bar will start to rise again, and this is how we try to keep the gamers hooked to our game for 10 and 20 hours.

And also, all of my titles that I create, I really want people to feel something. I want people that play to feel sorrow, feel laughter, feel happy, feel fear--all of these real personal emotions I want the people to feel through my game, and that is one of the reasons.
GS: Now, obviously I don't think you can say much about 4, but maybe we can talk a little bit generally about what excites you about the new hardware and gameplay potential of the new system?

HK: I said in the Sony conference I would like to concentrate on what we cannot see.

Well up to the days of today of game creating, if you...if I give an example of movie creation, it's like everyone was trying to raise...to make a better, prettier set. If you compete to make that set bigger or maybe prettier, it still doesn't make a difference. A set is a set. Meaning, you know, the back side is hollow, or it's all fake. For instance, if you were to create a fake jungle, the trees necessarily don't have to be trees. They could be plastic.

And with the next gen coming up, I think that most of the creators are thinking, oh, why don't we expand the size of the set or make the set prettier or concentrate on the things that the players can see. This direction will probably be the trend even in the next-gen console. And I think that no one can win or no one can make a breakthrough doing this. Therefore I would like to take a different approach, and that's why I said I want to concentrate on the things we cannot see.

So an example is, I do not want to create a set anymore. I want to create the environment from scratch. So if I were to continue the example of a jungle, I don't want to create fake jungles anymore. I would like to plant a tree, put a life-form in there, life program in there, so that in the game, when you water the plant, it will grow. If you don't water the plant, it will die. What I would like to present to the user is now play our hide-and-seek game in this real world, not the set jungle that everyone competes on.

It's also up to the user's decision on the next-gen games, meaning they have a decision to make, if the creators create something, a larger set, a larger jungle, but only it looks like a jungle, it looks like the real thing with the visual graphics enhanced. The users can select that "yes, I would like to play in the fake world or the set." Or, it could be smaller since we put the machine specs on concentrating on what we cannot see, the whole playground itself might get smaller, but we will create the world, and you can play in this real world. It will be a decision to use this, which you like to play.

So that is kind of the key concept to MGS for the hide and seek in the real world, which I think probably answers most of your questions.

GS: A piece of the larger puzzle?

HK: Yeah. Of course I'm not saying that I'm going to create jungles again. But I can say, if I created this real world, and it happens to be--so small garden or so--it looks so bad, even badder than a PS2 platform, then I might throw away this idea
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Offline Psymont 2.0

Re: Metal Gear Solid 4 and Metal Gear Solid: 3 Subsitence
« Reply #11 on: May 22, 2005, 09:38:07 PM »
http://www.konami.jp/gs/game/mgs3/english/index_secret.html



parady cut scenes from mgs3... i guess these are old news but they are funny...

you gotta answer 5 ?'s right to proceed since these are for people who have beat the game

Offline Kakkoii_Guts

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Re: Metal Gear Solid 4 and Metal Gear Solid: 3 Subsitence
« Reply #12 on: May 23, 2005, 12:28:36 AM »
Wow...  Those were wonderful.  I don't understand how I managed to go this long without seeing those.

Offline dwarfkicker

Re: Metal Gear Solid 4 and Metal Gear Solid: 3 Subsitence
« Reply #13 on: May 23, 2005, 01:15:47 AM »
Those were so awesome.

Offline Rage Incarnate

Re: Metal Gear Solid 4 and Metal Gear Solid: 3 Subsitence
« Reply #14 on: May 23, 2005, 01:23:54 AM »
Quote
Wow...  Those were wonderful.  I don't understand how I managed to go this long without seeing those.

Those will be included on Subsidence along with three only on the Japanese version of the site.  My favorite is the rock, paper, scissors one (might be Japanese site only).

Quote
I don't see Liquid Snake there, and last time i checked he died of "Foxdie".  Anyway if you look at vamps picture closey, theres a buttle wound in his head, and jacks picture shows him with a baby.(rose's baby)

You haven't played MGS2 then.  Look at some site with spoilers.  Here is a hint "Revolver ocelot/Liquid Snake"

Quote
Ps. Whats so bad about Raiden, i mean the whole "I dont want to kill" thing pissed me off but when you played has him he wasnt bad.

It may have something to do with either the game's catchphrase "I just wanted to save." or the fact that Raiden held nanomachine conversations with a person three feet away...  Or it had a storyline that revolving around him that many people couldn't understand or people didn't want to play as someone easily mistaken for a girl or...  Anyway finish MGS2 and you will get what I mean (I assume you haven't because of your comments on Liquid).
« Last Edit: May 23, 2005, 11:48:22 AM by Rage Incarnate »
There's one simple rule here, and it's universal: you shalt not be stupid. It really shouldn't be too hard to follow.  - Aazealh
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Offline Proj2501

Re: Metal Gear Solid 4 and Metal Gear Solid: 3 Subsitence
« Reply #15 on: May 23, 2005, 06:21:52 PM »
MGS4.......that's so money baby... ;D

Offline Rage Incarnate

Re: Metal Gear Solid 4 and Metal Gear Solid: 3 Subsitence
« Reply #16 on: May 23, 2005, 08:10:09 PM »
MGS4.......that's so money baby... ;D

What?
There's one simple rule here, and it's universal: you shalt not be stupid. It really shouldn't be too hard to follow.  - Aazealh
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Offline Proj2501

Re: Metal Gear Solid 4 and Metal Gear Solid: 3 Subsitence
« Reply #17 on: May 26, 2005, 02:46:17 PM »
so money = SO FUCKIN AWESOME!!!!

Offline Woland

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Re: Metal Gear Solid 4 and Metal Gear Solid: 3 Subsitence
« Reply #18 on: May 26, 2005, 08:07:35 PM »
that was pretty funny... everybody booed when they saw jack...

so, what are your thoughts on jack?

He might actually be well recieved if he's a NPC, most of the hate towards him is because he was the player character, and wasn't Snake.  Well that and he was a pretty boy who had some whiny moments.  Snake is a manly hero, much more popular in the U.S.

I can't speak for the rest of the world.
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Offline Rage Incarnate

Re: Metal Gear Solid 4 and Metal Gear Solid: 3 Subsitence
« Reply #19 on: May 26, 2005, 09:53:22 PM »
He might actually be well recieved if he's a NPC, most of the hate towards him is because he was the player character, and wasn't Snake.  Well that and he was a pretty boy who had some whiny moments.  Snake is a manly hero, much more popular in the U.S.

I can't speak for the rest of the world.

Actually, to my knowladge, he was pretty internationally hated.  From Mexican to British many people hated him.

I doubt he would be well recieved as anything.  MGS2 destroyed any chance of him appearing as anything more than as a cameo that you get to kill.

The resons for the hate aren't just his out of the blue replacement of Snake but also what inspired the game's catchphrase "I just wanted to save."  Soap operas and stealth games aren't a good mix.

Anyway he will have a spin-off for you Jack fans it is called "Metal Gear Raiden: special appearances as gay lovers."  There are even enough Volgin fans for his spin-off "Metal Gear Volgin: why snake's ass hurt after the torture room scene"
There's one simple rule here, and it's universal: you shalt not be stupid. It really shouldn't be too hard to follow.  - Aazealh
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Offline Psymont 2.0

Re: Metal Gear Solid 4 and Metal Gear Solid: 3 Subsitence
« Reply #20 on: May 27, 2005, 11:52:54 AM »
i think volgin was a good choice...

lets face it, whats worse: torture or torture w/ anal rapage...

same reason why that biker gang was so fearful in mad max...

Offline Rage Incarnate

Re: Metal Gear Solid 4 and Metal Gear Solid: 3 Subsitence
« Reply #21 on: May 27, 2005, 09:44:54 PM »
What does everyone think the new enviroment will be?  Kojima said "somewhere the player will ask 'how the hell am I supposed to hide there?'"  I am thinking desert.  Only place he hasn't done (in 3D).
There's one simple rule here, and it's universal: you shalt not be stupid. It really shouldn't be too hard to follow.  - Aazealh
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Offline Eddie

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Re: Metal Gear Solid 4 and Metal Gear Solid: 3 Subsitence
« Reply #22 on: May 30, 2005, 01:25:00 AM »
Buy a NDS. 8)
*eyes get really wide* whats that mean? you can play the first two on ds?
that was pretty funny... everybody booed when they saw jack...

so, what are your thoughts on jack?
Jack's Raidren right? I liked Raiden and frankly I think the Raiden haters can shove it up thier ass.
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Offline dwarfkicker

Re: Metal Gear Solid 4 and Metal Gear Solid: 3 Subsitence
« Reply #23 on: May 30, 2005, 04:31:34 AM »
I didn't have a problem with Raiden either.  He was protrayed to be more or less a newb soldier trained by VR and put on his first assignment.  Kojima also wanted to show off Solid Snake from another characters perspective and not you, the gamer's.  The reason for his deception, showing off only Snake through the whole game was part of the theme that had to do with controlling the digital information that the Patriots sought to do.  I'm sorry but the man's a genius that keeps you guessing up until you have and have beaten the game.

Offline Psymont 2.0