Serpico Sacrifice!

I know I'm jumping out on a limb here, and this speculation has been somewhat made before, but anyway...

Is it possible that all of this speculation about a Serpico apostle was directed incorrectly? At the moment, it seems Farnese is in the most damaged mental state. After all, she seemed to love playing the part of the martyr for the group, but if they no longer need her to get the boat will she still be so resolved to fight on? Griffith's Guts envy was quite apparent in his final moments, and I am beginning to wonder if Farnese couldn't be feeling quite similar in regard to her relationship with Schierke. Even if she were to ever gain a slight comprehension of what it is to be a witch, she would be far below Schierke and thus not particularly integral to the group.
Now, also consider that at this point Schierke is rising up and taking control of sorts in this chapter, much in the manner Guts did after Griffith was rendered useless (and, let's face it, if we see some monstrous destruction she is the only one who could help aside from Guts).

It also seems to me that Farnese probably isn't taking kindly to Guts fatherly role with Schierke, although it isn't clear whether she desires Guts as a father or lover. And, on top of this, Serpico is beginning to change as well...
So, if she is useless and doesn't succeed in sacrificing herself (by Marrying Roderick), she just might be intrigued by the possibility of sacrificing others.
As for sacrifice candidates, her extended family or Serpico could serve sufficiently, ESPECIALLY the Serpico with this new set of mind. I'm just saying that we've reached a breaking point, and she is not just going to return to baby sitting Caska and following Schierke, who has usurped the role she desires so greatly. So...Farnese apostle, anyone?

And yes, I realize this theory is thoroughly retarded.
 
If you can do better, by all means have at it.

Additionally, sir, I didn't really feel it particularly fit with the tone or current direction of that particular thread, and as such did not feel it would be proper to place it there.  The only real point I wished to raise was that it seems rather impossible for Farnese to return to her former role; I do not see how Miura will address this, and as such was more interested in speculation about that than an actual sacrifice of Serpico or the creation of a Farnese apostle (I really thought that the concept itself would be a bit of a sign post to the lighter nature of the post...); it was actually meant to poke fun at the recent outpouring of apostle posts, but it seems sarcasm is a rather difficult art to put into practice...

SO, what I am really saying is this: Do you think that Farnese will willingly fall back in line and serve as Schierke's pupil, after seeming to relish her role as a martyr?

I promise to never attempt humor again, I guess...I mean, take a hint for Christ's sake.
 

Herald of Yama

"It is pure Potential"
Well, if it comes down to returning to Guts' family or being martyred by Hell-o' Kitty, Farne-chan'll probably bow to Schierke on one knee and say 'What is your bidding, my master?'

The desire to learn magic from Schierke was to become more 'useful' to the group. The motivation for it was twofold: Envy and Fear. You've already covered Farnese's envy quite well, but there is also her fear to be considered. Her fear of being 'useless' to Guts, whom she admires/loves. If Guts doesn't need her, he'll likely just dismiss her. His disdain would crush her, and it is what she fears most in this topsy-turvy world she now lives in, where God, Faith, and Duty have all been revealed as a cruel hoax.

And yet, Guts is coming back for her. Without magic, without troops, even without a boat to offer, she is still of value to him. The realization of that truth will probably be enough to cement her teacher/pupil status with Schierke for good, as well as add another chip to the pile of depression Serpico is carrying around. That boy really needs a chapter to himself to sort out all of his feelings toward Farnese(does he love her as a sisiter? A beloved master? a beautiful woman? Or all three at the same time?) Serpico sacrifice seems unlikely at this time, but the Wisdom of Aazealh holds true in this instance as well.
 
Herald of Yama said:
Well, if it comes down to returning to Guts' family or being martyred by Hell-o' Kitty, Farne-chan'll probably bow to Schierke on one knee and say 'What is your bidding, my master?'

"All who stand against the God Hand are now enemies of the republic. Do what must be done."
 

Aazealh

Administrator
Staff member
Adding to the fun... ;D

bph said:
At the moment, it seems Farnese is in the most damaged mental state. After all, she seemed to love playing the part of the martyr for the group, but if they no longer need her to get the boat will she still be so resolved to fight on?

She's uncertain about her feelings and so on, but I don't think that her mental state could be said to be worst than what it was prior to her encounter with Guts. I'm also not sure about her playing the martyr for the group. She's been a burden to everyone, but she tried to improve and did her best not to be a dead weight, taking reprimands without complaining.

bph said:
Griffith's Guts envy was quite apparent in his final moments, and I am beginning to wonder if Farnese couldn't be feeling quite similar in regard to her relationship with Schierke. Even if she were to ever gain a slight comprehension of what it is to be a witch, she would be far below Schierke and thus not particularly integral to the group.

Nah, I don't think that's how it is. Really, Farnese is on a totally different scale nowadays, humble, kind and comprehensive, and I think she will eventually do a fine witch. Plus it's not like Schierke became stronger and stronger to finally surpass her, she's always been "superior". These things are what show us the draconian changes that Farnese went through, and how she's now totally different from what she was when she was first introduced to us.

bph said:
It also seems to me that Farnese probably isn't taking kindly to Guts fatherly role with Schierke, although it isn't clear whether she desires Guts as a father or lover.

Hmm, what leads you to believe that?

bph said:
And, on top of this, Serpico is beginning to change as well...

Well, he's changing far more slowly than she is, and I'm not even sure that she noticed his inner torment. Plus he's still dedicated to her no matter what, as we've seen in the recent episodes.

bph said:
she is not just going to return to baby sitting Casca and following Schierke

I actually think that she'll do exactly that, and that it will bring her happiness and fulfillment. Herald of Yama's post covered a lot of points already, but I want to stress out the fact that they're all coming to take her back with them while she's got nothing to offer. They actually ignored the boat and went to get her back instead. That's quite strong as a token of friendship by my standards...

You're also forgetting why she decided to learn magic in the first place. It wasn't to become useful to the group so much as it was to be able to understand the world, and finally overcome her constant fear of the unknown. Caving in a big villa wouldn't help her much on the emotional level, while with the group and as Schierke's pupil, she will be able to emancipate herself in the end, to develop her true personality and affirm it.
 
Well sir, (I'm speaking to Aazealh) my thinking is a bit askew, and I can't really back my stance up with much evidence.  It's really just more of a vibe I'm feeling from the recent episodes; I just don't think the pseudo-nuclear family presented by the group can continue to function harmoniously.

Could it be possible we are over rating Guts' people skills a bit?  He's ever the tactical genius, but dealing with personal squabbles that are bound to happen the moment when things return to a simmer from this recent boil (perhaps arrival at Elfhelm?) may be a bit much. 

The one thing I would really like to have your opinion on, is this: Do you think that Farnese is always going to be content to exist within Guts dream?  I really do believe the others are drinking the proverbial kool aid, but Farnese just seems to be too strong spiritually to give in to that; I don't have a real basis for this, it's just my opinion.

I still think the Schierke envy is very much under the surface; again, it's just a vibe that I'm probably imagining.  But, I think that regardless of why or in what way she desires Guts, even if she is content to follow him forever, she at least wants to be more important.  I'm kind of interested in seeing how she would react to a sane Casca; Schierke, as a child, is not much of a threat, I'll concede.  But, there is no way I can imagine Farnese could coexist with the former Casca.  I know she has changed, but has she really lost that fire which allowed her to take such risks in the past?
    I think that a trip to Elfhelm and a newly sane Casca could be the trigger that sends her over the edge, and breaks the group up a bit.

Anyway, I'm anxiously awaiting your tearing apart of this base theory, and I know it has no basis on events in the narrative itself.
 

Herald of Yama

"It is pure Potential"
You're theory is based on your interpretation of past and current events. I'm not trying to say that your theory is wrong, or impossible, just a little unlikely.

Concerning the Casca and Farnese group dynamic, it would be interesting to see Casca's reaction to a member of the nobility like Farnese. In the past, Casca's reaction to them was unreadable -She obeyed orders from them(when they were given) mostly to further Griffith's dream, but otherwise had no direct contact with them. I doubt she felt much sympathy for them as people due to her childhood experience. Depending on the manner in which Casca's sanity is returned, it might take awhile to reorient her into the group, if the group even stays together after reaching Elfhelm. I could very much see Schierke wanting to stay behind with the other witches and wizards on Skellig instead of returning to a world so hostile to sorcery. Guts will have found Casca a safe place among the elves, but would he stay there with her, or grow restless under the urgings of the Beast? Serpico will follow Farnese wherever she goes (or stays), but what would Farnese do in such a situation? Stay, to finish her witchly studies, or go back to settle the final affairs of House Vandimion and brace for whatever kind of world Falconia ushers in?(for simplicity of argument, I'm ignoring what Puck, Casca, Isidro, and Evarella might do.)
 
Coming from a noob like me, this'll sound odd, but:

Can a Behelit user sacrifice themselves to transform someone else?

Given Serpico's relationship with Farnese, could he offer himself up to empower her?  The sacrifice has to be something cared about (not necessarily the most cherished - look at Roshinu, for example) - everyone cares about themselves a bit.  And if she were badly wounded in battle / deeply offended by Guts' actions, he might use Behelit to give her the power she wants/needs.

Anyone else think the same?

P.S.  Sorry if this has already been posted on a different topic before.  Got limited internet access (max 2 hrs a week) so I don't get time to check every post thoroughly.
 

Aazealh

Administrator
Staff member
bph said:
my thinking is a bit askew, and I can't really back my stance up with much evidence.

Well, I think you should give it a try at least, otherwise it won't be very convincing... You must have reasons to believe that the group won't stay stable, don't you? Even if it's only a hunch, there has to be a source to it.

bph said:
Could it be possible we are over rating Guts' people skills a bit?

I actually think that most people are underestimating the evolution of his social skills. Compared to other characters in Berserk, Guts is at the moment looking very wise, compassionate and reasonable to me. He's privileging his comrades over himself, and doesn't act foolishly, but thinks and makes his moves accordingly.

Look at the way he handled Schierke or Serpico recently. Difficult situations, but resolved quickly.

bph said:
He's ever the tactical genius, but dealing with personal squabbles that are bound to happen the moment when things return to a simmer from this recent boil (perhaps arrival at Elfhelm?) may be a bit much.

What personal squabbles exactly? It's true that this is highly speculative and subjective, I can't really even comment on it because there's simply no element in the manga concerning what you describe. If anything, I would say that the group is actually strengthening, people becoming closer and understanding each other more than they did before. Old demons are vanquished or about to be, personalities and fellowship are developed.

As for what will happen after their arrival at Elfhelm, this is even more delicate. Elfhelm is currently the end of Guts' journey. We all know that it won't stop there, but for now that's his goal. Once they'll finally come to the island, the group may or not split, it's hard to seriously make any prediciton about it. I think however that Farnese and Serpico who were prior to the current events always a group within the group will soon develop stronger links with their companions, evolving as separate individuals and not a sub-group anymore (one could argue that this has begun already).

So yeah, once in Elfhelm and after that, the group may split as they go after different goals, but it won't be the result of a dissension IMHO.

bph said:
The one thing I would really like to have your opinion on, is this: Do you think that Farnese is always going to be content to exist within Guts dream? I really do believe the others are drinking the proverbial kool aid, but Farnese just seems to be too strong spiritually to give in to that; I don't have a real basis for this, it's just my opinion.

On the contrary, Farnese is the weakest as far as mental goes, at least for now, don't you think? She joined Guts because she wanted to change that, but she left the group because it was too hard to endure. Talk about being psychologically strong... Serpico, Isidro, and even Schierke are actually less inclined to follow Guts without questioning his decisions that she is.

And if someone is idolizing Guts, it's her, more than anybody else. Also, to exist within Guts' dream? She's doing what she wants right now, it's not like she was defeated in a duel and forced to serve him. She left the group recently, so we'll see if she comes back or not. If she does (I doubt her not to), it won't be to share Guts' dream, whatever you think it may be, but for herself. Same stuff than what I said in my previous post. ;D

bph said:
I still think the Schierke envy is very much under the surface; again, it's just a vibe that I'm probably imagining. But, I think that regardless of why or in what way she desires Guts, even if she is content to follow him forever, she at least wants to be more important.

I don't see anything at all hinting at a jealousy toward Schierke. I have no problem imagining Farnese looking at her feet while stuttering a "sorry master" when she'll see the group coming for her.

About her wanting to be more important, that's hardly a problem, and I don't see how it could be blamed. Wouldn't you want to be useful in a group? Would you be content just burdening others? I know I wouldn't. And she knows that Guts isn't for her, she thought so again when talking to her mother.

I'd like to talk about her relation with Schierke again, since it's a very interesting element to me. What we see is a tormented grown woman and an ex witch-hunter becoming the student of a shy little girl. They also cohabit in an peculiar group of adventurers, and one assumes a dominant position while the other takes care of the lowly chores. Yet, Farnese begged Schierke to take her as a pupil. How many people in this situation would be able to do that? To forsake their past and look past the apparent humiliation, realizing what they could gain. Not many, IMHO. This says a lot about Farnese, I think it hints at the formidable person she might reveal herself to be later on, basically the opposite of what she was at first.

bph said:
I'm kind of interested in seeing how she would react to a sane Casca; Schierke, as a child, is not much of a threat, I'll concede. But, there is no way I can imagine Farnese could coexist with the former Casca. I know she has changed, but has she really lost that fire which allowed her to take such risks in the past?

Well, Casca becoming sane again would sure be interesting. Not only in her interaction with Farnese, but with all of the group's members, Guts included. That will be something to see, and I don't think we can guess what the result will be. For all we know, Miura might use a trick and have her not regain her memory or something like that.

Anyway, I don't think that Farnese would have any particular problem with Casca, especially not about Guts (Casca might, though ^^; ). I don't see Farnese as being madly in love with Guts, he's more of an invincible hero to her, and again, she's always known that he'd never be hers.

About her still being unstable and going over the edge and all, I think the story is so far showing us the contrary. She's growing, her old demons are regressing.

bph said:
Anyway, I'm anxiously awaiting your tearing apart of this base theory, and I know it has no basis on events in the narrative itself.

Well... You shouldn't be expecting that, really. I'd prefer it if you tried to justify your opinion, or explicate its bases to us. :)

Herald of Yama said:
Concerning the Casca and Farnese group dynamic, it would be interesting to see Casca's reaction to a member of the nobility like Farnese.

Once in Elfhelm, and given the context at that moment, I'm not sure it will matter whether one is a noble or not.

Herald of Yama said:
Depending on the manner in which Casca's sanity is returned, it might take awhile to reorient her into the group

Yeah, she'll have to find a role, and her past intimacy with Guts coupled to years of unawareness might be hard to handle. He went on and matured, while she stayed the same. Or won't she be the same? Then it's Guts that would be perturbed.

Herald of Yama said:
I could very much see Schierke wanting to stay behind with the other witches and wizards on Skellig instead of returning to a world so hostile to sorcery. Guts will have found Casca a safe place among the elves, but would he stay there with her, or grow restless under the urgings of the Beast?

I think Schierke would feel obligated to accompany Guts, though he may not be going on a vendetta like he did in the past. I also don't want to imagine Guts leaving Casca in Elfhelm, especially not after all he went through the first time, and the lessons he learned. The Beast problem should be resolved in Elfhelm too, or at least diminished a lot. With his astral wound cured, he'll also be able to use the armor without always having the Beast in the back of his mind.

I like to think that Miura will have an exterior factor intervening that will more or less trigger them to go back to struggling instead of settling in Elfhelm, rather than just the characters being bored or something equivalent. Of course, there's no way to tell what will really happen in the end.

Herald of Yama said:
Serpico will follow Farnese wherever she goes

Will he? Wouldn't it be interesting for them to finally be separated? Their later reunion would only be more moving. 8)

Herald of Yama said:
what would Farnese do in such a situation? Stay, to finish her witchly studies, or go back to settle the final affairs of House Vandimion and brace for whatever kind of world Falconia ushers in?

That's a wild question that could apply to a lot of the characters actually. Will Isidro stay to train, or go on and fight?

tuxedo_nat said:
Can a Behelit user sacrifice themselves to transform someone else?

Not as far as we know. That would actually be the total opposite of the way it works.

tuxedo_nat said:
The sacrifice has to be something cared about (not necessarily the most cherished - look at Roshinu, for example) - everyone cares about themselves a bit.

Nah, it has to be something you really hold dearly to your heart. Roshinu did love her parents despite everything else, and she calls to them in the end. You can't bargain with stuff that you "care a bit" about. See the various God Hand speeches about it.

tuxedo_nat said:
And if she were badly wounded in battle / deeply offended by Guts' actions, he might use Behelit to give her the power she wants/needs.

And what if she doesn't want it? That scenario seems totally unrealistic to me.


« Last Edit: June 15, 2005, 08:06:21 PM by Aazealh »
 
Posted by: Aazealh

Well, Casca becoming sane again would sure be interesting. Not only in her interaction with Farnese, but with all of the group's members, Guts included.

Well, if the Dreamcast story is considered an actual episode, which I believe it has been discussed and most people agreed it was, then I think we know what might happen as soon as she regains sanity.

In the game, she regained sanity for just a moment, she looked at Guts and had no idea what had been happening ever since she lost her sanity. She could still speak, hear, etc., and recognized Guts, but had no memory of what has happened.

If this is what will happen when she regains sanity, then it would be an interesting story with her getting to know everyone. Eventually she might be confused with everyone telling her different versions of what has happened. Guts might tell her a candy coated version of a story, say about how happy he has been with Serpico and how big of a help he has been. Then Serpico himself, or Farnese, or anybody else giving her the real version of the story, or even their own version of how it happened confusing her and making her mad at Guts for lying to her, or so she may think.

I was just curious what you Aaz, or anyone else for that matter, think of using the Dreamcast episode to base your speculation of what will happen when she regains her sanity.

- C
 

Aazealh

Administrator
Staff member
C said:
Well, if the Dreamcast story is considered an actual episode, which I believe it has been discussed and most people agreed it was

It's a chapter actually (Chapter of the Oblivion Herbs) :), and I don't think that everybody agrees about whether it should be considered as an integral part of the story or not. It's a cool side story, and nothing really contradicts it, but at the same time there's no indication that it ever happened in the manga (besides Puck looking strangely at the Mandragora seedling in Flora's mansion). Guts never seem to remember that Casca returned to normal for a moment, and no other allusion is made.

C said:
In the game, she regained sanity for just a moment, she looked at Guts and had no idea what had been happening ever since she lost her sanity.

Well, she said she had a really bad dream, which I guess means that she would probably remember at least a few blurred elements.

C said:
If this is what will happen when she regains sanity, then it would be an interesting story with her getting to know everyone.

Yeah, and them to know her.

C said:
Eventually she might be confused with everyone telling her different versions of what has happened.

I doubt that to happen, really. If they wanted to hide something from her, they would at least consult each other before doing so... Then she could learn about it later on from a different source, but having them all giving her different versions of everything  at the same time would be silly.

C said:
I was just curious what you Aaz, or anyone else for that matter, think of using the Dreamcast episode to base your speculation of what will happen when she regains her sanity.

It's most probable to me that she won't remember a lot from her mental blackout period, merely fragmented memories and blurred events, as I said in my last paragraph. That's what I think is the most plausible outcome (which doesn't mean it will necessarily happen), and yes, it's conform to what happens in the DC game.

However, when I said that Miura could have her not regain her memory in my last post, I meant all of it: she would be sane, but have no memories of her life, including Guts, Griffith, the Hawks, etc.
 
Having no memories at all? Isnt that not necessary a bad thing? Skullknight would then have said that would be something she look forward to back in vol 26 instead of saying otherwise..
 

Aazealh

Administrator
Staff member
Smith said:
Isnt that not necessary a bad thing? Skullknight would then have said that would be something she look forward to back in vol 26 instead of saying otherwise..

Smith... Could you please make sense? What are you trying to say?
 
Aazealh said:
Smith... Could you please make sense? What are you trying to say?


Skullknight mention that having her sanity and memory back would not be something she hope for back in vol 26... Which make me strongly believe if Caska did get any chance of getting cure by King hanafubuku, she would still be able to retain all her memory...


Sorry i was typing the previous when i am dead tired...
 

Aazealh

Administrator
Staff member
Smith said:
Skullknight mention that having her sanity and memory back would not be something she hope for back in vol 26...

When exactly did he say that? In what episode? I think you're confused with what he says on the beach in volume 28 (episode 238).
 
Aazealh said:
When exactly did he say that? In what episode? I think you're confused with what he says on the beach in volume 28 (episode 238).

Erm? Perhap so but in my manga translation Skullknight said this to Guts, Your wish may not be something she hope for...
 

Aazealh

Administrator
Staff member
Smith said:
Erm? Perhap so but in my manga translation Skullknight said this to Guts, Your wish may not be something she hope for...

He says "what you wish for may not be what she wishes for", and that's in the beginning of episode 238. This is referring to Guts' own desires, like his revenge on Griffith.
 
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