Author Topic: King Raban  (Read 6129 times)

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Offline Triggormortis

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King Raban
« on: June 13, 2005, 05:44:19 AM »
Seeing as how Midland needs a new king, I can't help but choose Raban as a good candidate. I mean, he's practically (seemingly) the only good person in the Berserk world. I can atleast infer this b/c we haven't been told otherwise. Him and Sir Owen seem to be King material.
So I just have a feeling that Raban might become king even if it's just for warming the throne for Griffith.
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Offline Aazealh

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Re: King Raban
« Reply #1 on: June 13, 2005, 07:48:52 AM »
Well, since Griffith is marrying Charlotte (should be done by now), he's the king now, or will be very soon. I think that Raban and Owen will be the ones to notice Griffith's true nature first in the future (Foss isn't to be discarded either).


Anyway, since we have a thread about Raban that probably won't get hundreds of replies here, I'll deviate a bit from the topic. I've always wondered whether his name originated from Dune (Frank Herbert) or not. Miura uses a lot of names from famous Sci-Fi works, and Dune is a masterpiece. There are two characters in the first novels that are named like that: Feyd-Fautha Rabban and "the Beast" Rabban. Just randomly wondering, what do you guys think?

Offline Opie

Re: King Raban
« Reply #2 on: June 13, 2005, 07:53:58 AM »
Hmmm, maybe he's going to be the King after Griffiths "throne warming"?
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Offline zooty

Re: King Raban
« Reply #3 on: June 13, 2005, 09:29:29 AM »
Feyd-Fautha Rabban and "the Beast" Rabban. Just randomly wondering, what do you guys think?

Its Feyd-Rautha Harkonnen and Rabban Harkonnen :)

Offline Aazealh

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Re: King Raban
« Reply #4 on: June 13, 2005, 09:33:57 AM »
Its Feyd-Rautha Harkonnen and Rabban Harkonnen :)

Their complete names are Feyd-Rautha Rabban Harkonnen, and Glossu "the Beast" Rabban, as far as I remember. Feyd also has "Rabban" in his name, though people don't call him like that (he's the son of Abulurd and Thora Rabban, the younger brother of Glossu, and the nephew of Vladimir Harkonnen).

EDIT: After checking, Feyd took the name Harkonnen when he was chosen for the Siridar Baron's household. Anyway I was mostly referring to Glossu Rabban, since the baron actually calls him by his last name (from what I read, Rabban is a distaff name that Abulurd took when he was cast away).

Offline Smith

Re: King Raban
« Reply #5 on: June 13, 2005, 11:17:35 AM »
Hmmm, maybe he's going to be the King after Griffiths "throne warming"?


You mean by the time the whole story end... that seem possibe if Guts and his band could really defeated him in the first place...
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Offline zooty

Re: King Raban
« Reply #6 on: June 13, 2005, 12:04:54 PM »
yea its been a while since i last read house atreides/harkonnen/corrino or even dune for that matter (been reading the butlerian jihad preludes and K-PAX along with tons of 14th century armour reproduction manuals and reference books, being an armourer sucks just ask godo)

but as far as i remember baron vladimir harkonnen refused to have any children because of his sexual prefrence, and his brother Abulurd (who was a nice guy) had 2 children feyd & glossu. I cant remember if vladimir kills Abulurd or glossu does, I vaugly remember the baron hiding lots of spice in an ice berg on Lankiveil.

anyway back to the thread, I think Raban+Owen are the most likly to opose griffith once hes king and they probabaly will have a big part to play in helping Guts or more likly Farnese since shes in the social elite.

Offline Aazealh

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Re: King Raban
« Reply #7 on: June 13, 2005, 12:52:03 PM »
yea its been a while since i last read house atreides/harkonnen/corrino or even dune for that matter

Same, I haven't read Dune in like ten years.

but as far as i remember baron vladimir harkonnen refused to have any children because of his sexual prefrence and his brother Abulurd (who was a nice guy) had 2 children feyd & glossu.

Yup.

I cant remember if vladimir kills Abulurd or glossu does

I think "Rabban" (Glossu) did (people almost always call him Rabban from what I recall, hence my initial statement). Anyway, enough of the Dune discussion. :)

Offline Trashcan

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Re: King Raban
« Reply #8 on: June 14, 2005, 02:55:27 AM »
I once joked about Raban becoming King(with Owen as Prime Minister) after Griffith's defeat. It seems the idea is catching on. But what will happen to Minister Foss if such a situation were to occur?
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Offline Kagami

Re: King Raban
« Reply #9 on: June 14, 2005, 02:59:05 AM »
Senator Foss
Quote: Originally Posted by Picnic Boy
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Offline Triggormortis

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Re: King Raban
« Reply #10 on: June 14, 2005, 03:25:09 AM »

You mean by the time the whole story end... that seem possibe if Guts and his band could really defeated him in the first place...
Yeah, the most reasonable outcome would be that Raban or Owen will become king after Griffith is defeated. I think it's safe to say that Griffith won't remain king because things like that just don't work out that well (but hey, who knows?)
Anyways, it seems like a reasonable possibilty. Or in the least they will play an important part in the outcome of the story.
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Offline Aazealh

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Re: King Raban
« Reply #11 on: June 14, 2005, 09:05:53 AM »
I once joked about Raban becoming King(with Owen as Prime Minister) after Griffith's defeat. It seems the idea is catching on. But what will happen to Minister Foss if such a situation were to occur?

Their reaction upon discovering the truth about Griffith (if they do, who knows what Miura planned for them) will surely be very interesting. As for Raban becoming king, why not, even though I don't see it happening. He's not a bad candidate, reasonable and all, but he lacks charisma, and by the time Griffith is defeated if that ever happens, he'll probably be a bit old to take the function. Plus he's modest and humble, he could even refuse.

Someone once said that Mule could become the king one day, and I fancy that hypothesis more as he's young and all (there's also been discussions about Rickert or Guts becoming the king in the end).

Senator Foss

?

Yeah, the most reasonable outcome would be that Raban or Owen will become king after Griffith is defeated.

Anything supporting that statement? The nobles refused to listen to Owen at the ball recently, they refused to work together because there was no representant of the royal family to guide them, no one with royal blood.

I think it's safe to say that Griffith won't remain king because things like that just don't work out that well (but hey, who knows?)

What do you mean? Griffith is not a mere human anymore, why wouldn't he remain the king (until his final defeat that is)? Who could oppose him with success apart from Guts and Ganishka? As a God Hand member, his motives are without a doubt relatively evil, and sooner or later things will degenerate. But how would that affect him? At that point he would already be considered a tyrant, and people wouldn't be able to do anything about "things not working out very well". Not to forget that he's actually a legitimate king, being married to Queen Charlotte.

Or in the least they will play an important part in the outcome of the story.

There's no doubt about the fact that they still have a role to play; as for how important it will be, I think it's hard to make a reliable prediction for now.

Offline zooty

Re: King Raban
« Reply #12 on: June 14, 2005, 01:12:25 PM »
Not to forget that he's actually a legitimate king, being married to Queen Charlotte.

I dont have a clue about the way other monarchies work but im assuming the other european ones that date back as far as the british one have a similar rule since they all inter married. Beserk imo is set in medieval europe (although since its fiction it could be anywhere)

If someone marries a female in line to the throne they can only become prince. this has happened with the british monarchy at the moment, Phillip married Elizibeth in 1947 then she had her coronation in 1952 to become Queen Elizibeth II, Phillip became Prince. Even if they had married after her coronation  he would still have been a Prince.

Now when a monach dies it gets passed onto the next blood relative, Children then siblings then neice/nephews then cousins. If none of these exist there it will go to a family who has had managed to marry into the previous bloodline (this is the cause of many civil wars as people dispute bloodline claims)

Since charlotte and Griffith will have no chilren for at least 9 months and griffith seems pretty power mad im thinking he might kill charlotte and since we know of no other blood relatives to her it would go to the next person with the best marriage to the family... griffith. He could then be crowned king.

this is all if Miura knows his european monarchies :) he might just let them marry and him become king lol
« Last Edit: June 14, 2005, 02:01:17 PM by zooty »

Offline Lithrael

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Re: King Raban
« Reply #13 on: June 14, 2005, 02:43:42 PM »
Quote from: Aazealh
Not to forget that he's actually a legitimate king, being married to Queen Charlotte.

Quote from: zooty
If someone marries a female in line to the throne they can only become prince.

Since charlotte and Griffith will have no chilren for at least 9 months and griffith seems pretty power mad im thinking he might kill charlotte and since we know of no other blood relatives to her it would go to the next person with the best marriage to the family... griffith. He could then be crowned king.

Whoops.  Charlotte's doomed, then.  Heheh.  Griff will have fun playing that off against his adoring public.  "Your lovely Charlotte was viciously killed by evil Kushan assassins that got into my room somehow.  I'll sadly become king and kick their asses in vengance."  *cleans knife*

Offline Aazealh

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Re: King Raban
« Reply #14 on: June 14, 2005, 05:07:49 PM »
I dont have a clue about the way other monarchies work but im assuming the other european ones that date back as far as the british one have a similar rule since they all inter married. Beserk imo is set in medieval europe (although since its fiction it could be anywhere)

Yeah, Berserk is set in a fictional world as you said, and I really don't think that whatever rules apply (or applied) in our world, be it Europe or anywhere else, necessarily apply to it.

Also, the succession system used in Britain in recent times (called lineal or cognatic primogeniture) isn't the norm for all European countries, far from it actually (and there aren't more similarities between European countries than between them and the rest of the world actually). There are lots of complicated nuances, and of course most systems evolved over the centuries, this specific system that you are mentioning rose in the 20th century. Before that, in most countries females were totally excluded from the royal line of succession (Agnatic Primogeniture or Salic law) or they could only transfer the inheritance rights to their sons if there was no other successor (Quasi-Salic Succession). Needless to say, there were also numerous exceptions on top of that.

As for the title of prince over the one of king, it also depends on the country and on the context (I think though I'm not sure that the kingdom being sovereign or not can make a difference too). Germany and France's "prince system" for example is different from U.K.'s in that a prince isn't necessarily royal. The title was even used as a synonym of Duke during certain periods if I'm not mistaken.

Anyway, to come back to the subject, in feudal times daughters were often allowed to succeed, but their husband became the real lord and acquired the title, which would be the case here with Griffith. Back in earlier times, the king was also usually elected by the highest nobles and generals, to prevent unqualified people (losers) to access to the throne. This would obviously also be the case here IMHO, since Griffith is god-like as well as being a genius tactician and possessing a supernatural army.

He could claim the title by right of conquest anyway, or demand that Midland's nobility recognize him as such. It was done historically so that the conquerer would octroy himself a legitimity he didn't really have (nor need). Some nobles would (will?) probably oppose it, but they wouldn't live to tell their children about it. Even if he marries Charlotte, people could blame his lack of a bloodline, but that wouldn't lead them very far.

griffith seems pretty power mad im thinking he might kill charlotte and since we know of no other blood relatives to her it would go to the next person with the best marriage to the family... griffith. He could then be crowned king.

I don't think he would go as far as doing that. He wouldn't really need it, even if he didn't have the title, he would be the real ruler and Charlotte a puppet. She could also abdict in favor of Griffith, some countries do this (e.g. Netherlands). He'll probably discard her later on, but he wouldn't benefit from doing that right now, and if he does get rid of her, I don't think it will just be to get the title of king. From now on she'll most likely comply to his every request and be extremely easy to manipulate, so keeping her in a room like the Count kept Theresia would be a perfect alternative to death.

this is all if Miura knows his european monarchies :) he might just let them marry and him become king lol

I wouldn't worry about Miura not knowing something, but there's really no reason for him to bother himself to follow some strict historical succession system, especially since there have been so many systems and exceptions to these very systems. -__-;; There's also always the possibility to "abusively" use the monarchical title, be it King of Midland, or King (Emperor? Let's see big) of Falconia, etc. Many historical figures did it.

As a final note, I'd say that the Japanese vocabulary may not even fit all of these terminology nuances perfectly anyway.

PS: On to another question: what about procreation? :o Ganishka talked about having a baby with Charlotte, so could Griffith actually sire a child? (Using his unearthly powers, or just old school Femto-style 8)) And what would the resulting creature be like? Crazy speculation ahead!

Offline Kagami

Re: King Raban
« Reply #15 on: June 14, 2005, 07:25:17 PM »
But what will happen to Minister Foss if such a situation were to occur?

Senator Foss was my answer to that question Aaz :D

but on another note aboot Foss, I'm surprised he is still alive. I honestly thought he was going to bite it soon when he was first introduced, (what like, 10 years ago I guess) like the kings brother.
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Offline kimchan

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Re: King Raban
« Reply #16 on: June 14, 2005, 10:17:11 PM »
If someone marries a female in line to the throne they can only become prince.

Though this is basically true, you should keep in mind the time that Berserk is set in.  If a queen married, it's likely her husband would have practically been a king even if he didn't have that title.  Female rulers were not always well received and ruling was generally considered an inappropriate line of work for them.  So the husband is the one they turn to.

Quote
Since charlotte and Griffith will have no chilren for at least 9 months and griffith seems pretty power mad im thinking he might kill charlotte and since we know of no other blood relatives to her it would go to the next person with the best marriage to the family... griffith. He could then be crowned king.

I don't see any logical reason for Griffith to kill Charlotte.  It would actually be to his benefit to keep her alive.  She is his only legitimate link to the royal family of Midland.  If they have children together, that will pretty much solidify his position as royalty, which regardless of his title, is still extremely powerful.  This is Griffith we're talking about, so I'd imagine it would be very easy for him to manipulate the government's activities even if he remains only a prince.

Also keep in mind that killing Charlotte would be really bad for his image in the court and in the eyes of the people.  So unless he absolutely for certain has the power to put down potential rebellions inside and outside the court, along with the Kushan (if they're still around in Midland), he should probably keep Charlotte around.
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Offline Triggormortis

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Re: King Raban
« Reply #17 on: June 15, 2005, 02:43:41 AM »
What do you mean? Griffith is not a mere human anymore, why wouldn't he remain the king (until his final defeat that is)? Who could oppose him with success apart from Guts and Ganishka? As a God Hand member, his motives are without a doubt relatively evil, and sooner or later things will degenerate. But how would that affect him? At that point he would already be considered a tyrant, and people wouldn't be able to do anything about "things not working out very well". Not to forget that he's actually a legitimate king, being married to Queen Charlotte.
By things not working out, I meant for Griffith. Would Miura simply let Griffith stay king and kill off Guts? Or maybe Guts will just forgive him and go home- this way, Guts could live! Perhaps, but unlikely.
What I was hinting at is that Raban may become king if Griffith is defeated. Or Guts, or Rickhert, or Mule, or Foss. I just believe that, out of all of these people, Raban would be most likely to succeed Griffith after his "final defeat."
« Last Edit: June 15, 2005, 02:45:28 AM by Triggormortis »
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Offline Aazealh

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Re: King Raban
« Reply #18 on: June 15, 2005, 10:20:08 AM »
Senator Foss was my answer to that question Aaz :D

Ok. In cases like this, it might be a good idea to use quotes so that people know for sure what you are replying to. :)

Though this is basically true, you should keep in mind the time that Berserk is set in.  If a queen married, it's likely her husband would have practically been a king even if he didn't have that title.

As I said already, this isn't even a problem. In earlier times, the husband of a heiress became the possessor of her lands and titles ("jure uxoris", meaning by right of the wife). In Middle Ages, that was the case with Queens Regnant and Princesses Regnant altogether (the king in this case would be denoted as a "king consort").

Here's a quote from answers.com illustrating this point:
Quote
In some cases, the king thus ascended, remained king even after the death of the wife, and in some cases left the kingdom to their own heirs who were not issued of the wife in question (cf. Wladyslaw Jagello, King of Poland, ascended as husband of Queen Jadwiga). Surprisingly, when there was a divorce between a reigning female monarch and her husband, the husband would remain the monarch and the wife would lose her status! One example of this is when Marie of Boulogne and Matthew I of Boulogne were divorced in 1790. Marie ceased to be Countess, while Matthew I continued to reign until 1793.

And in England, Queen Mary I and II both gave their husband the title of King... The case of Philip and Elizabeth II is specific since in the U.K. there's no automatic right for the spouse of a monarch to receive any title.

By things not working out, I meant for Griffith. Would Miura simply let Griffith stay king and kill off Guts? Or maybe Guts will just forgive him and go home- this way, Guts could live! Perhaps, but unlikely.

Uhh yeah, I know you meant that things wouldn't work out well for Griffith. Now I'm asking what leads you to believe that. Sure, Guts will most probably come for Griffith someday, but that's not going to happen anytime soon... And in the meantime, what wouldn't work out for him? (since we were talking about close future as far as I can tell, not the end of the series)

What I was hinting at is that Raban may become king if Griffith is defeated. Or Guts, or Rickhert, or Mule, or Foss. I just believe that, out of all of these people, Raban would be most likely to succeed Griffith after his "final defeat."

Yeah, no need to repeat that from your previous post, I just wanted to know if you had any kind of evidence or fact to support this assumption, Raban seeming rather unambitious and not the character in the best position for the job to me. Anyway, to try to guess who's going to be king of Midland when Berserk will end is a pretty far call if you ask me, we're not even sure that there will be a king (a republic? :o), or that there will be a kingdom left, or that Miura will care to tell us what happens afterward...

That's why I'd rather focus on short-term story development.

Offline kimchan

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Re: King Raban
« Reply #19 on: June 15, 2005, 03:25:21 PM »

As I said already, this isn't even a problem. In earlier times, the husband of a heiress became the possessor of her lands and titles ("jure uxoris", meaning by right of the wife). In Middle Ages, that was the case with Queens Regnant and Princesses Regnant altogether (the king in this case would be denoted as a "king consort").


Thanks for the information.  I knew something like that usually happened, but I didn't know if it was official procedure or not.
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Offline tuxedo_nat

Re: King Raban
« Reply #20 on: June 15, 2005, 04:50:39 PM »
...since we know of no other blood relatives to her...

Her only blood relatives are dead: the King, Count Julius and his son Adonis. 

I don't see any logical reason for Griffith to kill Charlotte. It would actually be to his benefit to keep her alive. She is his only legitimate link to the royal family of Midland. If they have children together, that will pretty much solidify his position as royalty, which regardless of his title, is still extremely powerful.

Once he's got the kingdom, he won't care about the legalities.  He'll accomplish his dream and then to hell to the rest.  Marrying Charlotte would just be a formality to him - with an apostle army and incredible popular support, who'd challenge him? (excluding Guts and his band, of course).

Besides, what would any children be?  Would Griffith's God Hand powers taint it (like the Demon Child) and if it developed fully, would Charlotte die giving birth to it? (Casca survived because the Demon Child was premature)

Raban being King if/when Griffith falls - who knows? If Charlotte were already dead, it'll be a multi-faction civil war, with anyone powerful enough challenging for the throne. 

Online Walter

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Re: King Raban
« Reply #21 on: June 15, 2005, 04:54:02 PM »
(Casca survived because the Demon Child was premature)
That's a solid-sounding point, but there's no evidence that's the case.
Quote
If Charlotte were already dead, it'll be a multi-faction civil war, with anyone powerful enough challenging for the throne. 
Isn't that what it is now, with Griffith in the lead? Besides, who could oppose the Apostle Army?
:femto: :slan: :ubik:

Offline tuxedo_nat

Re: King Raban
« Reply #22 on: June 17, 2005, 01:00:37 PM »
That's a solid-sounding point, but there's no evidence that's the case

Maybe my analysis of time in Berserk is a bit off, but the time between Guts & Casca having sex, and the birth of the Demon Child could not have been more than 4-5 months at least.  The pregnant bulge first becomes visible at around this time, and after repeatedly looking through volumes 10-13, I have yet to see a picture of Casca with such a bulge. 

To me, that means that she was raped as the child was developing (hence its foetal appearance), and the shock of being raped induced her labour.  (Any form of big shock has been linked to causing the onset of labour). 

If it gets that tainted and distorted after such a short time, and the Daka are human-inseminated Apostle-spawn, would Charlotte's body cope with a Femto-inseminated baby if it developed for the full 9 months? 



Isn't that what it is now, with Griffith in the lead? Besides, who could oppose the Apostle Army?

The civil war I had in mind is one that would happen if, after marrying and killing Charlotte, Griffith and the Apostle Army were sufficiently decimated or even wiped out. (by Guts or by any other means).  There would be no member of Midland's royal bloodline left to claim the throne, and the currently aligned nobles, Raban included, would fight amongst themselves to take it by conquest.


If there are parts of my argument that don't fit, please tell me what I've got wrong, and how.

Offline zooty

Re: King Raban
« Reply #23 on: June 17, 2005, 01:17:32 PM »
Her only blood relatives are dead: the King, Count Julius and his son Adonis. 

Yeah, but as you say they are all dead so it would be kinda hard for them to take the throne. :)

Offline Aazealh

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Re: King Raban
« Reply #24 on: July 03, 2005, 12:19:28 PM »
I knew something like that usually happened, but I didn't know if it was official procedure or not.

Well you know, back then they kind of just went with what they saw fit... The decisions were often taken on a case by case basis.

Maybe my analysis of time in Berserk is a bit off, but the time between Guts & Casca having sex, and the birth of the Demon Child could not have been more than 4-5 months at least.

There's less than that, but what Walter meant was that nothing proves that Casca would have died if the baby had been born after 9 months.

To me, that means that she was raped as the child was developing (hence its foetal appearance)

It's not like there's a doubt about this...

and the shock of being raped induced her labour.  (Any form of big shock has been linked to causing the onset of labour).

It also could have simply been because he had become evil, and thus didn't need or just couldn't stay in her womb anymore.

If it gets that tainted and distorted after such a short time, and the Daka are human-inseminated Apostle-spawn, would Charlotte's body cope with a Femto-inseminated baby if it developed for the full 9 months?

The Daka are a different thing, if only because they're created by sorcery (notice all the Kushan priests gathered). First, we don't know whether the women are all "human-inseminated" or not (even though Rakshas talks about pregnant women), none of the girls we see plunged shows any sign of pregnancy before the Daka come out, and given their numbers, a whole freaking lot of women would require a successful insemination, which isn't so easy to achieve. Most of them could have been created before that, but there's no way to know.

Second, the Daka take the shape of 9 months monster-babies in a matter of seconds, and are all identical as well as resembling Ganishka (their intellectual capacity seems to be very limited as well). So it doesn't compare very well with Guts and Casca's child or the hypothetic offspring of an incarnated God Hand member. Different methods, different results. When Ganishka asked Charlotte about carrying his child in order to attain a peaceful resolution to the war, I don't think he expected the progeny to burst out of her belly and feast on her corpse.

I actually feel like I'm speculating against myself, since I had evoked all of this 6 posts before you did. :-X

The civil war I had in mind is one that would happen if, after marrying and killing Charlotte, Griffith and the Apostle Army were sufficiently decimated or even wiped out. [...] There would be no member of Midland's royal bloodline left to claim the throne, and the currently aligned nobles, Raban included, would fight amongst themselves to take it by conquest.

Look at the current situation, do the Midland nobles fight among themselves for the crown? No. If the situation you describe were to happen, other countries, especially Tudor, would invade Midland, and the nobles would either side with them (if they can) or fight to the death (or flee). It's already what they're all trying to do, under the cover of reconquering lost Holy See territory from the Kushans. A civil war like the one you describe would need a very specific global and international setting, and I don't think it's likely to happen.