Author Topic: The Red Lake (volume 14)  (Read 7220 times)

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Offline A.C

The Red Lake (volume 14)
« on: June 28, 2005, 10:50:35 AM »
i checked around the topics in here but i didn't find any topics of this. i've started re-reading the manga and i'm currently on Volume 14, start of Retribution Arc, Lost Children and i'm wondering if the "Red Lake" is the same place as the Eclipse, aka the leftovers of Band of the Hawk?

because the Vatican knights talk about the "fifth use", would this be the same as the "fifth Eclipse"? if so, then this means there is a prophecy in the hands of the Vaticans that has predicted all the God Hand members rise which happens every 216 year, since the prophecy specifically says the fith "use" brings the "Dark Hawk" which would be Femto. (also because the story then jumps forward 2 years to the present.)

Offline Aazealh

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Re: The Red Lake (volume 14)
« Reply #1 on: June 28, 2005, 11:12:32 AM »
i'm currently on Volume 14, start of Retribution Arc, Lost Children and i'm wondering if the "Red Lake" is the same place as the Eclipse, aka the leftovers of Band of the Hawk?

Yes.

because the Vatican knights talk about the "fifth use", would this be the same as the "fifth Eclipse"?

They're not "Vatican" knights. They're called the Holy Iron Chain Knights, and they're indeed under the command of a Holy See, which isn't the Vatican. The Vatican's in Italy. ;)

if so, then this means there is a prophecy in the hands of the Vaticans that has predicted all the God Hand members rise which happens every 216 year, since the prophecy specifically says the fith "use" brings the "Dark Hawk" which would be Femto. (also because the story then jumps forward 2 years to the present.)

The Holy See has a prophecy that says about this, yeah. I strongly recommend you to be careful about the translations you rely on, some like the thehawks.org's stolen material contain a lot of nonsenses and approximations. Check these threads for more information:

What is the correct translation of the prophecy?
Falcon of Light/Darkness

Offline Tell Me Why

Re: The Red Lake (volume 14)
« Reply #2 on: August 08, 2005, 09:51:57 PM »
In response to those two topics Aazealh linked to...

So basically Griffith is just doing the same thing over again? I mean, when they were just the Band of the Hawk, Midland was in trouble with other kindgoms. And then he was a saviour to the people, restoring Midland. But then, he turns into Femto and plunges Midland back into a horrible state. Now he's come back to save them again? Ehhh?

Offline Aazealh

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Re: The Red Lake (volume 14)
« Reply #3 on: August 08, 2005, 10:26:40 PM »
So basically Griffith is just doing the same thing over again?

Not exactly, there is a certain resemblance, but the situations differ a lot in several ways.

I mean, when they were just the Band of the Hawk, Midland was in trouble with other kindgoms. And then he was a saviour to the people, restoring Midland.

Midland had been at war with the Tudor empire for a hundred years, and the Hawks put a term to it, the determining event being the fall of the Doldrey fortress (their innumerable victories played a role too, of course).

But then, he turns into Femto and plunges Midland back into a horrible state. Now he's come back to save them again? Ehhh?

Becoming Femto didn't really do anything to Midland, he was supposed to be dead anyway. However a series of well calculated events (thanks Idea) accompanied his ascension, bringing doom not only to Midland (it's the most affected, though, with the plague, the incident with the king, etc), but to the surrounding countries as well (including Tudor, see the recent episodes for reference). We're talking about the Kushan invasion here, which has been a menace to pretty much everybody.

And so, annihilating quite a number of people, Griffith came back as a prophetized savior (collective dream). He's not just a talented general anymore though, but a divine being: unstoppable and turning impossible tides, winning against all odds. When the Hawks first managed to end the 100 years war, they were acclaimed as heroes, but it wasn't nearly as big (in every way) as what is happening right now. There are similarities, but what happens currently is surrealist.

Offline Void Swordsman

Re: The Red Lake (volume 14)
« Reply #4 on: August 09, 2005, 03:15:39 AM »
(also because the story then jumps forward 2 years to the present.)

I think the HICKs show up either a few days or a few weeks after the eclipse, 2 years later wouldn't make sense seeing as they were chasing after Guts at that time.

Offline Aazealh

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Re: The Red Lake (volume 14)
« Reply #5 on: August 09, 2005, 10:17:35 AM »
I think the HICKs show up either a few days or a few weeks after the eclipse, 2 years later wouldn't make sense seeing as they were chasing after Guts at that time.

Yes, they get there around the same time Guts leaves Godot's house. The "2 years later" part where Guts saves Jill is just after that scene. I wasn't under the impression that A.C was mistaken about it though.

-rob-

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Re: The Red Lake (volume 14)
« Reply #6 on: September 03, 2005, 07:18:44 PM »
The "Idea of Evil" thing is always gonna confuse me. Why would he let Guts survive the eclipse? And let him go on and murder so many apostles? Just an assumption, but there has to be a way around its/his predetermined fate.



EDIT: Blah, I have a real bad way with words, I hope someone understands what I'm trying to get at.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2005, 07:20:35 PM by -rob- »

Offline yota821

Re: The Red Lake (volume 14)
« Reply #7 on: September 03, 2005, 07:49:27 PM »
apostles are nothing to the God Hand, let alone the Idea of Evil.  Femto talked about this in volume 3, when the Count summon the God Hand.

 The Count is trying to make the case that Guts are a menace that must be eradicated, but Femto replied that no matter how many apostles Guts kills, it means nothing to them, and that the Black Swordsman is someone not even worth noticing.
I'm just a poor, wayfaring stranger.......just moving along to the next habitation of demons.....

-rob-

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Re: The Red Lake (volume 14)
« Reply #8 on: September 03, 2005, 08:00:33 PM »
Yeah I remember that part. But I can't say I believe it is true. I mean Griffith came and VISITED Guts (Hill of Swords) still after all thats happened. Slann came and visited Guts during the battle with the trolls. Even though Griffith Denied it, as a member of GodHand I still think he cares for Guts.

Offline yota821

Re: The Red Lake (volume 14)
« Reply #9 on: September 03, 2005, 08:05:27 PM »
Do you remember WHY Griffith visited Guts in the first place??  It's to see if he still had any feelings or impulses towards Guts.  Now sure, you could actually say he visited because of the demon child inside him also compelled to go.  The child is certainly what caused Griffith to protect Casca.  But besides that, he is free, like he said himself.

As for Slann, she had her eyes on Guts ever since the eclipse.  But despite all this, the death of all those apostles still mean nothing to them.   
I'm just a poor, wayfaring stranger.......just moving along to the next habitation of demons.....

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Re: The Red Lake (volume 14)
« Reply #10 on: September 03, 2005, 08:28:27 PM »
Do you remember WHY Griffith visited Guts in the first place??  It's to see if he still had any feelings or impulses towards Guts.   he is free, like he said himself.

Yeah but even as a human I don't think Griffith realized the feelings he had for Guts (When they were clearly there). He's probably just still in denial.

Quote
But despite all this, the death of all those apostles still mean nothing to them.   

Definetley.

Offline yota821

Re: The Red Lake (volume 14)
« Reply #11 on: September 03, 2005, 08:38:14 PM »
Oh, he wasn't in denial then, he evenly openly expressed them (such as saving Guts when he fought Zodd and before, when he fought Guts when he tried to leave, when he put his hand around Guts throat when he was rescued, etc.. )  Also, even when they first met, Griffith made it quite clear, 'I want you'.  How clearer can you get?

Even at the end, during the eclipse, he said Guts was the only thing that made him forget his dream.  Getting someone branded doesn't just give you free raw meat for dinner, it cuts your emotional and human ties with those whom you brand. He sacrificed his humanity towards those he most loved in order to gain what he gained.   
I'm just a poor, wayfaring stranger.......just moving along to the next habitation of demons.....

Offline Aazealh

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Re: The Red Lake (volume 14)
« Reply #12 on: September 03, 2005, 11:16:48 PM »
The "Idea of Evil" thing is always gonna confuse me. Why would he let Guts survive the eclipse?

Who said The Idea of Evil let Guts survive? Skull Knight is a fish going against the flow of "the river of Causality" (it's an analogy), he interrupted the Occultation and saved Guts... And who said Guts isn't useful to the Idea of Evil in some way? He's carrying a beherit, after all. This was addressed in several older threads, please refer to them for more details, explanations and information.

Do you remember WHY Griffith visited Guts in the first place??  It's to see if he still had any feelings or impulses towards Guts.  Now sure, you could actually say he visited because of the demon child inside him also compelled to go.

Griffith went to see Guts on his own, otherwise he wouldn't have been surprised at the Child's feelings. It was because he wondered if he'd feel anything for Guts now that he had a body again. We know that he did react to Guts (which was unexpected to him) because of the Demon Child.

As for Slann, she had her eyes on Guts ever since the eclipse.

Yeah, Slan likes Guts in the same way that a cat likes to play with a wounded mouse. He ventured into the Qliphoth, her personal domain, so she appeared and toyed with him. If it wasn't for Skull Knight's intervention (once again), he'd probably be dead by now.

Oh, he wasn't in denial then, he evenly openly expressed them (such as saving Guts when he fought Zodd and before, when he fought Guts when he tried to leave, when he put his hand around Guts throat when he was rescued, etc.. )  Also, even when they first met, Griffith made it quite clear, 'I want you'.

I don't think that Griffith was expressing his personal emotions toward Guts at that time, but rather showing his need and care for an incredible soldier, full of potential (eventually the best fighter in both Midland and Tudor, since he defeated Boscone). I think he did refuse or fail to acknowledge Guts' importance in his eyes later on, leading to the events we know. And yes, in the end, sacrificing his soldiers in the way he did was the ultimate acknowledgement of Guts' importance. During his year of torture, he became totally obsessed with him.

Getting someone branded doesn't just give you free raw meat for dinner, it cuts your emotional and human ties with those whom you brand. He sacrificed his humanity towards those he most loved in order to gain what he gained.

I'm not sure I agree with that, at least not in the direct sense. I mean, branding people doesn't literally cut off your emotional ties with them, it's just that you become a monster and thus loses part or all of your humanity (or sublimate it, that depends on the point of view I guess), getting not to care about them anymore. You also don't literally sacrifice your humanity toward these people. You probably meant that figuratively though. I don't think I'm very clear... :schierke:

-rob-

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Re: The Red Lake (volume 14)
« Reply #13 on: September 04, 2005, 02:45:00 AM »
Who said The Idea of Evil let Guts survive?

No one said it, but I read that the Idea controls the destiny of all mankind or something like that. And if Guts got branded I'd think he was supposed to die during the eclipse? I mean if Idea wanted him dead by now he could of had him dead, couldn't he? :???:

Offline yota821

Re: The Red Lake (volume 14)
« Reply #14 on: September 04, 2005, 03:07:31 AM »
You just said it yourself :schierke:

Idea just controlled the fate and cirumstances surrounding Griffith so that he could become a God Hand.  Guts was just collateral damage.
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Offline Smith

Re: The Red Lake (volume 14)
« Reply #15 on: September 04, 2005, 04:08:33 AM »
If it wasn't for Skull Knight's intervention (once again), he'd probably be dead by now.


Do you think Slann will kill him? I feel that she wanted to force Guts to join them or something like that...
It piss me off when I see weaklings, it make me want to crush them

-rob-

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Re: The Red Lake (volume 14)
« Reply #16 on: September 04, 2005, 04:35:01 AM »

Do you think Slann will kill him? I feel that she wanted to force Guts to join them or something like that...

Yeah I didn't think Slann had any intentions of actually killing Guts. Just my opinion tho.

Offline Jhot obs

Re: The Red Lake (volume 14)
« Reply #17 on: September 04, 2005, 04:41:24 AM »
And yes, in the end, sacrificing his soldiers in the way he did was the ultimate acknowledgement of Guts' importance.
By that statement, do you mean that Guts made Griffith forget his dream, forcing Griffith to do whatever it takes to achieve it, thus sacrificing the Hawks? I think that's what you mean, but I never saw it that way before.  :isidro:

And since Idea was mentioned, I'd like something confirmed one way or another. In Berserk, is there a difference between Fate and Causality? By that I mean that Fate is something that's bound to happen and nothing you can do to stop it (sun rising tomorrow, you dying one day, etc) while Causality is a chain of effects that logical follow one another (I type this post, you reply, I read, etc.). I think that the latter is how Idea works (setting up Griffith's rebirth and the Kushan invasion to make him look like a hero to the people) and only looks like the former to almost everyone in Berserk, but I'd like a little confirmation if my theory is right or not.

Thanks ahead for any indepth enlightenment. :serpico:

Offline yota821

Re: The Red Lake (volume 14)
« Reply #18 on: September 04, 2005, 04:48:53 AM »
Hmmm, I like how Void stated it in volume 12..... :void:

"If fate, which surpasses human knowledge, toying with humanity's children is law, then causality is humanity's children using evil to oppose fate"

That's a very impromptu translation, btw, so it's open to interpretation.  But it's the general idea.
I'm just a poor, wayfaring stranger.......just moving along to the next habitation of demons.....

Offline Jhot obs

Re: The Red Lake (volume 14)
« Reply #19 on: September 04, 2005, 05:26:03 AM »
Hmmm, I like how Void stated it in volume 12..... :void:

"If fate, which surpasses human knowledge, toying with humanity's children is law, then causality is humanity's children using evil to oppose fate"

That's a very impromptu translation, btw, so it's open to interpretation.  But it's the general idea.
So humanity is using evil as Causality to go against Idea's Fate...

That would certainly explains a lot in Berserk. If that flows through, Guts surviving the Eclipse to where he's at right now is Causality at work through Skull Knight. :badbone:

Offline Aazealh

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Re: The Red Lake (volume 14)
« Reply #20 on: September 04, 2005, 02:17:43 PM »
No one said it, but I read that the Idea controls the destiny of all mankind or something like that.

Idea manipulates the destiny of all mankind yes, but it's not omnipotent as far as we know. Very powerful, but not all powerful. That's why people like Skull Knight (Or Guts) can go against it to some extent.

And if Guts got branded I'd think he was supposed to die during the eclipse?

Who knows?

I mean if Idea wanted him dead by now he could of had him dead, couldn't he?

Well, Guts sure had a hard time staying alive, but then again, who knows? Idea's schemes are beyond us.

Do you think Slann will kill him? I feel that she wanted to force Guts to join them or something like that...

In any case, Guts can't be part of the God Hand, and I doubt she ignored that when she said so in volume 3. I don't think Slan will kill him, but for all we know she didn't care about him dying in the Qliphoth.

Yeah I didn't think Slann had any intentions of actually killing Guts. Just my opinion tho.

Then tell me what she would have done if Skull Knight hadn't come to rescue Guts. Just imagine, Guts is lying half dead in her arms, in the Qliphoth, then what happens? She suddenly goes away? Even if she had messed just a little bit more with him, that could have been enough for him to die. The remaining trolls could have got him while he was unconscious, anything. And you remember what happened when Slan went away? The Qliphoth collapsed, and if it wasn't for SK's Yobimizu no Tsurugi, Guts wouldn't have been able to escape.

So yeah, without SK he'd probably be dead, and I don't think Slan cared that much.

By that statement, do you mean that Guts made Griffith forget his dream, forcing Griffith to do whatever it takes to achieve it, thus sacrificing the Hawks? I think that's what you mean, but I never saw it that way before.

It's not exactly that, but yeah, you're getting it. Basically, all of what happened in Griffith's life, including meeting Guts and him leaving, sleeping with Charlotte and the one year of torture, was made so he would sacrifice the Hawks and become Femto. Don't hesitate to search for older discussions on this topic.

I'd like something confirmed one way or another. In Berserk, is there a difference between Fate and Causality?

Yeah, there's a difference, I'll try to explain. Fate is a generic word meaning "what is bound to happen" like you said, and in Berserk it's used figuratively, as in "we couldn't prevent it", but there's no divine book in which destiny is written. Causality however is what the Idea of Evil uses to manipulate the world according to its will. So beyond the two definitions that you listed, in Berserk fate is a concept while causality is an actual "power", used by God to control things. More below.

I think that the latter is how Idea works and only looks like the former to almost everyone in Berserk

Yeah, normal people wouldn't know the difference, and there's actually not a lot of difference from a global point of view if you only look at the result.

So humanity is using evil as Causality to go against Idea's Fate...

No no no... That's not it. This line is subtle and I think yota821's translation had you confused. The Idea of Evil is the master of Causality. What Void means in that line is that since Fate made it so Griffith's life and dreams were crushed, then he'll use the power of evil to fight against it. That's Causality. It refers to him becoming part of the God Hand to accomplish his goals in spite of his current failure.

I'll repeat and word the line a bit differently: "if fate is meant to toy with humans, transcending human knowledge, then it is causality (as in "it is a causal relation") that humans oppose fate with the power of evil." Fate is used as a concept here and not an actual power ruling the world. It means that since fate/destiny/etc is cruel to humans by nature, it's logical/causal that they end up using evil powers to oppose it.

You see what Void is getting at? Of course, keep in mind that during the Occultation, the God Hand also manipulated Griffith and showed/told him what he needed (or not) to see/hear in order to sacrifice his comrades. His life was made the way it was made through causality, and it was planned by Idea, but Void is implying that it's the nature of fate/life/etc.

If that flows through, Guts surviving the Eclipse to where he's at right now is Causality at work through Skull Knight.

No, never. Skull Knight and Guts go against causality, erase anything else from your mind. Causality is the tool of the Idea of Evil, and none other.

Offline yota821

Re: The Red Lake (volume 14)
« Reply #21 on: September 04, 2005, 03:43:47 PM »
^Thanks for clearing that line up, Aazealh. :serpico:  I always loved that line though, was just waiting for an opportunity to use it. :void:
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Offline SimplyEd

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Re: The Red Lake (volume 14)
« Reply #22 on: September 04, 2005, 08:33:18 PM »
So beyond the two definitions that you listed, in Berserk fate is a concept while causality is an actual "power", used by God to control things.

This is a fine description but i think it is a bit prone to misunderstanding. Fate may be a concept, something that follows rules, something that defines a beginning and an end and is binding for every single individual in existance. And causality marks a power to manipulate and control. But that alone makes it feel like fate is more or less powerless, something that can be easily twisted by causality. You could get the impression that it could fall victim to causality, but i think that's absolutely wrong. The way i see things, fate has to be served..always. Causality may be an incredibly strong power, but it cannot actively and directly go against fate.

In Griffiths' case it was his fate to loose his dream, to be defeated. This cannot be changed and it will happen eventually. Now, every time causality comes into play, it still serves fate, but at the same time it sublimely offers something outside of fate, an aftermath, a second chance, an epilogue if you will.

The members of God Hand are all beings that exist outside of fate, because their fate already ended and now they are solely defined by causality..anything is possible for them and their future because they are no longer bound.

An Occultation is still a part of fate as long as it serves the general rules. The same would hold true for becoming a sacrifice. The fate of those who were sacrificed would be to die. The act itself marks the end of fate as the one who makes the pact crosses over into causality(i hope this isn't too confusing^^).

Now, Skullknight, Guts and Casca are obviously special cases as it seems that their fate either wasn't served and severed(something that not even causality can accomplish) or that it is merely their fate to go against causality(which would obviously require something more powerful than the being in charge of causality, the Idea.)

Well, i could be wrong on the whole concept. It's merely the way i tried to understand some of Miura-sensei's thoughts^^
The thing is, if fate really didn't exist(as a concept,something divine,whatever) then there would be no need for causality,no? Idea could just act as it pleases and causality would be "fate".


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Offline Aazealh

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Re: The Red Lake (volume 14)
« Reply #23 on: September 04, 2005, 10:57:46 PM »
Idea could just act as it pleases and causality would be "fate".

I think that's how it is, actually. ^^; I'd comment more on what you said but... later.

Offline coolerimmortal

Re: The Red Lake (volume 14)
« Reply #24 on: December 27, 2005, 05:18:48 AM »


They're not "Vatican" knights. They're called the Holy Iron Chain Knights, and they're indeed under the command of a Holy See, which isn't the Vatican. The Vatican's in Italy. ;)


Er...Not quite. For all intents and purposes the Holy See might as well be called the Vatican: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_see