Author Topic: Why Guts is able to wield the DS  (Read 13597 times)

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Offline xechnao

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Why Guts is able to wield the DS
« on: July 01, 2005, 01:12:43 AM »
 The universe of Berserk is made of three realms, each one having its own "physic" laws if studied independently.
 We have seen for example that ghouls-ghosts of the astral realm could enter and posses physical bodies, granting them with new possibilities: seemingly more strength or for example the ability to do feats such as moving one's decapitated pieces at will. So it seems that in the astral realm -or the interstice- "laws" could respect more desire than matter.
 In this sense, it's my belief that Guts was able to wield the DS because of this. This because it seems physically impossible for a human to accomplish such a feat. Besides this is made clear by Godo, creator of the DS. Eventually, the first time Guts wielded the DS was in such an emotional condition of rage, hate and destruction against it's apostle aggressor that wielding the DS against him, a seemingly two-handed sword (a concept which was principal in Guts' psyche as a means of destruction allready-as we have seen in Taka-no-Dan) able to destroy the apostle, could have made part of his primal and principal emotional desires of the moment - a desire giving him the necessary energy or power while in the interstice to accomplish the feat.
 What I am saying here, is that Guts, if he weren't in the interstice first place, and if he have never had the desire to use the DS as his means to harm his enemies he most propably would not have been able to wield it against them.
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Offline zooty

Re: Why Guts is able to wield the DS
« Reply #1 on: July 01, 2005, 02:47:58 AM »
righto its a good thing i aint working tommorow :) ive just got back from the crappist club ever built (its acctully built on a land fill and was supposed to be closed years ago because its sinking into trash lol) so im sorry if my post makes no sense.

didnt another thread cover this? it talked about the weight of the blade and there was a big debate about wether it was iron or steel. it would have an iron core with a steel edge to it from the annealing (heating and rapid cooling) of the blade :).

as for guts being able to wield a ~500lb sword with ease its just fiction u gotta rember berserk is a story and in every story the hero has to have 1 really good thing going for them :). and to justify it  guts did grow up using a full sized sword so has always been used to wielding a sword thats bigger than him and more of a slab of metal than  a weapon lol and imo its beleiveable up until the DS... Guts is a big guy and a properly weighted sword feels lighter than it is. although i aint gonna complain the DS is 1 of the best weapons ever made lol... on another note godo is a master armourer so could have made the DS from some sort of alloy or special technique (plane props as an example) they are stronger than ya average lump of steel and a 10th of the weight but this is highly unlikly as in the manga its said that the DS cant be used because its so heavy. I find Guts ability to wield it effectivly more impressive than him being able to even pick it up

i did kinda ignore ya whole physke theory which im sorry for but just adding my own ideas about it :)

Offline xechnao

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Re: Why Guts is able to wield the DS
« Reply #2 on: July 01, 2005, 03:28:58 AM »
as for guts being able to wield a ~500lb sword with ease its just fiction u gotta rember berserk is a story and in every story the hero has to have 1 really good thing going for them :).

Agreed, but berserk grasps realism in certain matters or seeks to explain others that go far from it. The dialogue at Flora's Miura gave certainly wasn't only just random.

and to justify it  guts did grow up using a full sized sword so has always been used to wielding a sword thats bigger than him and more of a slab of metal than  a weapon lol and imo its beleiveable up until the DS... Guts is a big guy and a properly weighted sword feels lighter than it is. although i aint gonna complain the DS is 1 of the best weapons ever made lol...on another note godo is a master armourer so could have made the DS from some sort of alloy or special technique (plane props as an example) they are stronger than ya average lump of steel and a 10th of the weight but this is highly unlikly as in the manga its said that the DS cant be used because its so heavy. 

Yes, that part of Guts experience with big two-handed swords is an important part of my theory indeed -though in a different way than what you are saying. Anyway, remember that Godo said that DS was a sword able to kill a dragon though NO HUMAN could be able to wield it.

I find Guts ability to wield it effectivly more impressive than him being able to even pick it up

Same for me. Even if in theory we are to consider Guts to have the physical energy for such a feat, I believe the ground would have to shake due to momentum of balancing himself while striking.

i did kinda ignore ya whole physke theory which im sorry for but just adding my own ideas about it :)

Lol
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Offline Walter

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Re: Why Guts is able to wield the DS
« Reply #3 on: July 01, 2005, 05:06:14 PM »
Truly, it comes down to reality.  To quote Flora, "Focus on the reality before your eyes." If we asked Guts how he is able to wield the Dragon Slayer, what would he say? "I just do..." And that's all that really matters here, the pragmatic reality of his ability to massacre.

But I realize that won't be enough for you.  Xech, your theory is a little too reliant on unreliable "facts."  Godo isn't a reliable source of existential knowledge (the man didn't even believe in dragons...).  He's a blacksmith.   Flora and Schierke are the experts here.  Schierke says, in ep 208, "Is it because he’s been in the 'interstice' so long where the spirit can influence it's physical surroundings, or..."  While this does support your theory, it isn't completely sound.  If we are relying completely on the "travel through interstice makes you stronger" theory, then how could Guts wield the DS merely days after the eclipse?   Could he have lifted it before the eclipse? This will forever be unresolved, unless Miura writes in a time warping spell, where Pippin and Guts can take turns lifting the DS to prove the theory once and for all.

But, I don't think its merely his strength or merely his interstice existence.  Its a mediation.  I believe Guts' ability to wield the DS is a perfect combination of his strength, will and his interstistic (yes thats right) powers over the physical.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2005, 10:06:28 PM by Walter »
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Offline Gutsor

Re: Why Guts is able to wield the DS
« Reply #4 on: July 01, 2005, 07:01:09 PM »
My memory may be bad, but I remember Schierke handing out all the weapons to the group in the treehouse, and finally handing Guts his axe. Guts refused the axe and turned around, with the DS in full view, Schierke had this surprised look on her face and she said "That is..." or something like that. There might be something to that sword and Guts, probably some kind of prophecy not yet revealed. So maybe it will be resolved.

Offline xechnao

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Re: Why Guts is able to wield the DS
« Reply #5 on: July 01, 2005, 07:18:28 PM »
Godo isn't a reliable source of existential knowledge (the man didn't even believe in dragons...).  He's a blacksmith.

 Godo's existential knowledge was limited to the material-physical world only-not to the whole universe. And considering this part of reality only he saw no possibility of a human wielding the DS.


   If we are relying completely on the "travel through interstice makes you stronger" theory, then how could Guts wield the DS merely days after the eclipse?

Perhaps, because of his extremely heavy emotional and sentimental condition at that moment (when Rickert sees him for example he remarks that at that moment Guts came to seem more of a monster than a human). Perhaps because of his familiarity with the concept of wielding two-handed swords. And eventually, because of his straightforwardness and decisiveness to the point of dumbness when it comes to his spirit.
 

Could he have lifted it before the eclipse? This will forever be unresolved, unless Miura writes in a time warping spell, where Pippin and Guts can take turns lifting the DS to prove the theory once and for all.

Hmm, ok, just a nitpick:
lifting and wielding are two different things. An average man can lift more than 80 kgs. Let's accept that Guts can normaly lift 200 kgs. Swords (even two-handed), can't weight more than 4 kgs at max, to be used effectively. Even Guts couldn't normally use effectively a sword weighting more than 10 kgs. 

But, I don't think its merely his strength or merely his interstice existence.  Its a mediation.  I believe Guts' ability to wield the DS is a perfect combination of his strength, will and his interstistic (yes thats right) powers over the physical.

Yup, eventually, that's what I am saying or try to say myself.  8)

My memory may be bad, but I remember Schierke handing out all the weapons to the group in the treehouse, and finally handing Guts his axe. Guts refused the axe and turned around,

This is relevant with what I am saying in the thread: Guts refused because of his exprience and familiarity to use "stuff" like the DS for his effectiveness in battle.


with the DS in full view, Schierke had this surprised look on her face and she said "That is..." or something like that. There might be something to that sword and Guts, probably some kind of prophecy not yet revealed. So maybe it will be resolved.

This is yet a different story. What Schierke sees is the magical affinity of the sword to the shadow, a part of the astral realm.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2005, 07:38:33 PM by Aazealh »
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Offline Walter

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Re: Why Guts is able to wield the DS
« Reply #6 on: July 01, 2005, 07:34:57 PM »
Hmm, ok, just a nitpick:
lifting and wielding are two different things. An average man can lift more than 80 kgs. Let's accept that Guts can normaly lift 200 kgs. Swords (even two-handed), can't weight more than 4 kgs at max, to be used effectively. Even Guts couldn't normally use effectively a sword weighting more than 10 kgs.   
I wouldn't call that niticking. I'd call it a desperate, semantic escape route. 

Also, please don't double post.  Its actually more confusing that way.

PS: Is Silat in the interstice? He's done some pretty amazing things. Catching arrows mid-air?  :o 
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Offline xechnao

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Re: Why Guts is able to wield the DS
« Reply #7 on: July 01, 2005, 07:59:48 PM »
I wouldn't call that niticking. I'd call it a desperate, semantic escape route.
 

I didn't post this semantic as a debating part of our argument. I posted it to clear out on the word you used in your argument "lifting" + the physic numbers of the argument. I guess, you had this that clear allready, this is why you call it "desperate". It's ok, ignore it, move on.
 


PS: Is Silat in the interstice? He's done some pretty amazing things. Catching arrows mid-air?  :o 

This is pretty amazing and shocking allready for your average fellow but not physically impossible. There are jogglers capable of stuff amazing at that level.


PS: Thanks Aaz for the edit, sorry about dposting  :)
« Last Edit: July 01, 2005, 08:05:51 PM by xechnao »
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Offline Walter

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Re: Why Guts is able to wield the DS
« Reply #8 on: July 01, 2005, 08:09:42 PM »
Jogglers
What I meant was it was a very cool feat. Dramatic, even. But it doesn't need elaboration or justification.  Much like Guts' wielding of the Dragon Slayer.  Because of who he is, we, the readers of a fantasy series (don't forget Berserk's nature), aren't suprised or skeptical of his ability to wield such a huge sword.  He's Guts...
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Offline xechnao

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Re: Why Guts is able to wield the DS
« Reply #9 on: July 01, 2005, 08:24:48 PM »
What I meant was it was a very cool feat. Dramatic, even. But it doesn't need elaboration or justification.  Much like Guts' wielding of the Dragon Slayer.  Because of who he is, we, the readers of a fantasy series (don't forget Berserk's nature), aren't suprised or skeptical of his ability to wield such a huge sword.  He's Guts...

I see your point. But I don't agree 100%. That is about the justification part.
 Even in classic fantasy magic has its justification on the world, its justifications on its origins as every part of the world has its justification in existance too. This justification very much begins with divine existances and their doings. Although Berserk seems to follow an alternate approach on the aspect of the divine part of the world, the need of some justification still remains -even if not "realistic" or "alternative" or even more "elaborate". Indeed, I believe this extra elaboration is because of Miura's alternative approach.
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Offline Hideo

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Re: Why Guts is able to wield the DS
« Reply #10 on: July 03, 2005, 08:30:49 PM »
Well, I don't have a damn clue why Guts is able to wield DS. And, I have wielded a 9KG two-hander, and that was a pretty small one. Sure as HELL they can and do weight over 4kg. And hey, xechnao, luckily, Berserk isn't a fucking documentary. It's fantasy, where you can liberate your mind, and just go along. It destroys the idea of fantasy to think too much. You can, and will of course question certain things about it, but d o n t  t a k e  i t  t o o  s e r i o u s l y. It would be possible to lift and use a 70 kg slab of iron (or steel, or whatever) for a man or woman in any state of mind, without even mentioning the physical condition. (I have seen Guts using the DS, badly bruised and mangled.)
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Offline xechnao

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Re: Why Guts is able to wield the DS
« Reply #11 on: July 03, 2005, 10:45:16 PM »
Well, I don't have a damn clue why Guts is able to wield DS. And, I have wielded a 9KG two-hander, and that was a pretty small one.

Are you talking about a two-hander combat efficient or decorative one? Decorative tend to weight a lot more than the ones made for actual fighting.
I believe that the max weight of a combat efficient two-h sword arrives at 10 kgs around. I could be wrong, but anyway even 15kg is relatively too small respect than 70kgs or whatever the DS might weight.

About the rest you said, I agree in context, as I allready replied to Walter, to a point. There is the need of some justification, even if not realistic. Even spiderman has his one, even Hulk, even superman. About DS, IMO, there has been one in a not a so sound point. This is what this thread is about.
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Offline Hideo

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Re: Why Guts is able to wield the DS
« Reply #12 on: July 04, 2005, 10:44:38 AM »
It was a "real" one, used for fighting. You know, that a Bastard sword could weight 20 kgs, and the men wielded shields with them. Or arm-paddings. But still, DS is about 180 CM long, so it must weight as much as Guts, at least. But that is useless to speculate. It would be impossible to wield DS in the real world, not to even think of crafting it, from iron, or steel.
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Offline zooty

Re: Why Guts is able to wield the DS
« Reply #13 on: July 04, 2005, 11:00:03 AM »
You know, that a Bastard sword could weight 20 kgs, and the men wielded shields with them.

please tell me your source for that bit of information so i can go and slap them with facts, a 20kg b'stard sword would be as unwieldable as the DS

not to even think of crafting it, from iron, or steel.

it seems to me u dont take much time to read this forum or u would have seen my comment

...there was a big debate about wether it was iron or steel. it would have an iron core with a steel edge to it from the annealing (heating and rapid cooling) of the blade :)

Offline Hideo

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Re: Why Guts is able to wield the DS
« Reply #14 on: July 04, 2005, 07:56:20 PM »
Zoot, I must apologise, For my absence of mind. But Im only human, and make mistakes.


I quote you, Zoot: "please tell me your source for that bit of information so i can go and slap them with facts, a 20kg b'stard sword would be as unwieldable as the DS"

It wouldn't be impossible to wield that kind of sword.  It just takes a lot of strenght to wield it. It is a very big sword, one of it kind, and was made to a German knight, who was a big man.And it ain't as hard to wield as The DS. DS has Really, Reallyreallyreally much more mass, than a bastardsword could have. IF you could even lift the DS, setting it to motion would be veeeeery hard, and IF you could do it, it would be standing in a nearby wall. No one could hold it, without setting it loose.

And I cant give you much else than my word, that I'm not lying. Well, they didn't use shields with them, use lether padded iron thingies in their arms, so they could block an attack with that.
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Offline Blade

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Re: Why Guts is able to wield the DS
« Reply #15 on: July 19, 2005, 01:31:44 PM »
As this is a speculation thread, I figured this bit of speculated information would put the Dragonslayer into more 'realistic' terms if you will.

To quote Masamune167:

"I approximate the sword, with handle, to be around seven feet tall,
roughly 1.5 feet wide, and four inches thick at its thickest point.  It is
made of Iron (Fe), Atomic Number: 26, Atomic weight: 55.845 amu.  Iron nuclei
are said to be very stable, but is historically combined with carbon or
alloyed with other metals.  Pure iron is very susceptible to corrosion in
humidity and has moderate magnetic properties.  I would estimate the weight of
Dragonslayer to be in the range of 210 - 295 pounds (95.2544 - 133.8097 kg).
These are NOT official or to be taken at face value, they are simply my
educated guesses.  To put that into perspective, a typical Scottish claymore
is about 50 inches long while weighing around 7 - 11 pounds.  Even the largest
swords ever made to be handled by one person never exceeded 20 pounds."

Assuming the Dragonslayer is 295 pounds at maximum, that's about how much I can Box Squat when lifting weights with the weight squarely on my back and shoulders, this puts a lot of strain on my legs, and for Guts to swing it with one arm without breaking said arm due to muscle/tendon tensile endurance/bone endurance.  He would in real-world terms, have to be built like a truck at least, if not a tank.  Think Juggernaut-sized forearms here, with muscles about as big as some wrecking balls.  He'd have to eat his Wheaties and/or drink lots of Milk (calcium would be a big part of it).  Add to the fact the poor guy doesn't get much sleep and you can see the likelyhood of anyone carrying a sword that big around like that is highly unlikely.
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Offline Aazealh

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Re: Why Guts is able to wield the DS
« Reply #16 on: July 19, 2005, 04:11:00 PM »
Hey Blade, welcome to the board.

As this is a speculation thread, I figured this bit of speculated information would put the Dragonslayer into more 'realistic' terms if you will.

I'm not sure this brings anything to the topic really... Especially since it's speculated information. "Masamune167", whoever he is, appears to be good at googling information, and most of his estimation seems correct, but we've already got a lot of old threads speculating about the Dragon Slayer, its weight, mass, dimensions, etc. I could even go through the trouble and find the assumed measurements in the Hyper Maniac Mooks if needed... It's not the topic of this thread though, xechnao was just exposing his (wrong :carcus:) idea that the Interstice is the only reason Guts can wield his sword. More than half of what happens in Berserk is "impossible" anyway, so applying speculated data in order to prove or disprove something is pretty useless.

Here's some picture I found the other day while cleaning an old directory, it's pretty lame in itself but I think it fits perfectly to the situation:


That being said, I hope you'll enjoy yourself here with us. :SK:

What Schierke sees is the magical affinity of the sword to the shadow, a part of the astral realm.

Bullshit, she's just seeing a dark aura around the sword resulting from Guts' countless fights against apostles and incubi, specters, etc. We don't have a lot of informations about this for now, but it allowed the Dragon Slayer to affect Slan where "conventional" weapons couldn't (cannon arm).

There's no "shadow element", part of the astral realm or anything like that, I thought you'd know this by now.

This is pretty amazing and shocking allready for your average fellow but not physically impossible. There are jogglers capable of stuff amazing at that level.

Yeah, right. ::) You show me a guy that can notice and catch an arrow while kneeling, talking and turning his back to it, with another guy pressing a foot on his head, ok? Because otherwise anybody can just claim that some guys have a pretty incredible strength and can do amazing stuff like wielding a "very heavy" sword, but that catching a flying quarrel (with an average speed of 90 m/s, a draw force of around 1500 N) is physically impossible. And that's one example among many.

Offline xechnao

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Re: Why Guts is able to wield the DS
« Reply #17 on: July 19, 2005, 06:16:38 PM »
his (wrong :carcus:) idea

 :troll:  :chomp:


that the Interstice is the only reason Guts can wield his sword.
Nope, didn't say that. I said this is one of the things that Guts (for wielding the DS) couldn't do without. But yet, I said that there are still other reasons that Guts couldn't do without for wielding the sword.

More than half of what happens in Berserk is "impossible" anyway, so applying speculated data in order to prove or disprove something is pretty useless.
It's your own point of view really. There is a pseudo-explanation or description of the impossible in fiction, so IMO, this thread is not really based on a useless idea (at least comparitivelly)
And the game plays on people's backs and they don't even have a clue about it, wasting their energy because their attention is distracted by the rulers' game itself.
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Offline Blade

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Re: Why Guts is able to wield the DS
« Reply #18 on: July 20, 2005, 02:10:20 PM »
Yeah, but I hate catgirls, so aren't I doing this forum a service? :beast:
Behind every gun is a coward, behind every sword is a man with courage and talent, behind both, are fools who die for no purpose other than to satisfy someone's ego.

Offline Denial

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Re: Why Guts is able to wield the DS
« Reply #19 on: July 20, 2005, 11:47:09 PM »
It's obvious Guts is able to wield the DragonSlayer because he is an emination of Barbelo, and he isn't constrained by the gross accumulations of Yaldabaoth.

Offline All_4_Yume

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Re: Why Guts is able to wield the DS
« Reply #20 on: July 22, 2005, 02:35:28 PM »
I must be crazy cuz I assumed that Guts was just crazy strong.  Or the sword isn't as heavy as it looks.  I can't remember too many instances of somebody trying to pick it up but I figure somebody buff like Azan could pick it up. 

I never put much thought into it because Berserk's fighting is kinda unrealistic anyway.  If the soldiers, demons, and spirits wouldn't have gotten Guts his body would've.  I mean this motherfucker never pulled a muscle? 
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Offline Aazealh

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Re: Why Guts is able to wield the DS
« Reply #21 on: July 22, 2005, 03:07:52 PM »
Nope, didn't say that. I said this is one of the things that Guts (for wielding the DS) couldn't do without.

The other being "the desire to harm his enemy"? Excuse me but that applies to pretty much everybody, in any fighting situation.

It's your own point of view really.

Well, I don't think my point of view to be less valid than yours, especially in cases like these were you can't show any evidence of what you're affirming, nor disprove what other people oppose you... You're free to speculate all you want though, don't be mistaken, I just don't feel like arguing forever about unverifiable hypotheses.

There is a pseudo-explanation or description of the impossible in fiction, so IMO, this thread is not really based on a useless idea (at least comparitivelly)

There's not always a pseudo-explanation to things in fiction, it's just common for an author to describe what is taking place in his story, but it's not like it's required, I don't see your point here. Nobody said that your thread was based on a useless idea anyway, I was talking about the calculations specifically.

I assumed that Guts was just crazy strong.

That's pretty much it yeah, and his "impossible" feats aren't limited to wielding the Dragon Slayer anyway. His previous swords couldn't possibly weigh just 3kg either for example, given their thickness.

I never put much thought into it because Berserk's fighting is kinda unrealistic anyway.

And that's understandable, since most characters in Berserk perform "unrealistic" actions.

Offline DefaultJ!!

Re: Why Guts is able to wield the DS
« Reply #22 on: July 22, 2005, 07:06:14 PM »
poor, poor catgirls  :judo:

As for the thing about pseudo-explanations for things in fiction... Godo said the DS could be wielded by no man, right? That would mean Guts must be a...  :isidro: (fill in the blank)!! Sometimes we're better off without pseudo-explanations. Remember midichlorians?

As for the discussion about actual heavy swords and the use thereof... seems too ridiculous to say much about. See http://www.ejmas.com/jwma/articles/2004/jwmaart_shore_1004.htm for the weights of some mighty large two handed swords. The real thing is lighter than people think. Its getting too silly when theres people saying about 20 kg swords being carried with shields.

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Why Guts is able to wield the DS
« Reply #23 on: July 22, 2005, 07:36:19 PM »
Godo said the DS could be wielded by no man, right?

Actually no, he doesn't really say so.

He tells Rickert that the Dragon Slayer could definitely kill a dragon if they existed, but that it can't be called a sword because dragons don't exist in reality. So to him it's just a useless slab of iron. He then adds that when a tool is beyond its own nature and its user's ability, it's just a burden.

There's more to this dialog that's in fact very subtle, but nowhere it is plainly said "no man can wield it!!1!".

Offline zooty

Re: Why Guts is able to wield the DS
« Reply #24 on: July 23, 2005, 09:30:12 PM »
X = density of metal(lbs/cubic inch)
Y = volume in lbs
(length * width * height) * X = Y

0.284 = steel
0.274 = iron

so lets assume guts' sword is 6 foot long (lets make this 4 foot as its taperd), 3 inches thick and 16 inches wide

steel (48 * 3 * 16) * 0.284 = 654 lbs
iron (48 * 3 * 16) * 0.274 = 631 lbs

And thats not including the handle (which isnt properly weighted) so godo either used a weird metal/forging method or u go with its FICTION!

*edit* sorry about killing a few catgirls there :zodd:
« Last Edit: July 23, 2005, 09:43:20 PM by zooty »