Treatment of Caska in the manga **SPOILERS**

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Ckrisz

Brooklyn Representah
Just saw the BERSERK manga for the first time @ a great Japanese bookstore here in NYC. My only acquaintance beforehand was with the excellent anime series and reading updates on the Internet.

Was flipping through all the volumes and saw some stuff that basically turned my stomach and kept me from buying them all on the spot ... hell, from buying any at all. And that was the treatment of my favorite character, Caska.

I'm referring to two scenes in particular: The first is Wild's attack on the Hawks and his capture of Caska. This is a scene straight out of hentai, as he strips her and proceeds to threaten rape with a comedically monstrous tongue. She just seemed to be frozen and whimper. I was pretty disgusted by this ... it had zero purpose beyond simply playing the exploitation card to sell books to perverts.

The second scene, and the deal-breaker for me, was Femto's rape of Caska during the Eclipse. The way this was drawn and presented really made me want to throw the book across the room. This is a key plot point and a major turning point for all of the characters. It's a brutal rape that represents the ultimate in savage betrayal, the final sin that makes Griffith ultimately irredeemable (at least in my eyes ... apparently not in some other folks'). This scene is drawn like something out of DEBBIE DOES DALLAS. Instead of Caska's mental anguish and the horror of the moment, we get her being humiliated in several different positions from many angles, going on for at least 3 pages. Miura doesn't seem to understand that rape is NOT PORNOGRAPHY. This scene really sickened me and at this point I've pretty much decided not to purchase any BERSERK manga, whereas before I was ready and willing to plunk down $84 for all 21 volumes.

Now, I'm not a Mormon or something like that. I have no problem with seeing Caska naked in situations like when she and Guts make love (which I thought was drawn quite respectfully). I don't even have a major problem seeing Caska naked and in danger of being raped in her current state, because that was the world back then and now and when someone's trying to rape you, your clothes are probably going to get ripped (not that I'm exactly ecstatic about this, either ... I don't like it at all). What I DO have a problem with is Miura repeatedly humiliating Caska, a character whom he mostly otherwise draws with great humanity and creativity, for the sole purpose of violent exploitative perversion. Compare the openly pornographic treatment of Caska's rape with Guts' rape by Donovan (another scene I saw for the first time). We see pretty explicit stuff, and both Donovan and lil Guts naked. But we don't get Guts flashed from all angles, with every nook and cranny of his body on display, like some goddamn child porn flick. Miura shows us the brutality and horror of the moment, and once this is done, moves on. That's the way to handle that kind of situation in an explicit but yet non-exploitative manner. But when Caska's in danger ... he seems to forget all restraint and plays exclusively to the rubber raincoat crowd. I've lost a whole lot of respect for him and the manga itself.

I'm not saying that BERSERK is now worthless. I plan on keeping up with the storyline and seeing how it all plays out, and also to contribute to this board. I love the anime and Miura's writing and creativity are still high in my eyes. But I sure as hell am not going to support the manga with my money while stuff like what I mentioned above is being drawn.

I'm venting right now, but I'd be interested in what other people thought when they saw those scenes in the manga. Did anyone else have a similar reaction to mine?
 

trapped_soul

"This is it. It's over."
miura isn't very subtle when it comes to this.
i guess you're right. actually this stuff doesn't fit to the style of berserk.
berserk for me is an epos that reveals the deepest truth within life. it teaches you a lot about emotions like love, pain, anger, friendship, ambition, loyalty...
berserk may personally touch your emotions, so that you don't see any relevance of scenes like the ones you just mentioned.
more than that: they disgust you.

but maybe that's the point... they disgust you!
maybe that's what miura's aiming at.
i hope none of us true berserk fans get horny when it comes to those incidents!?!    :p
for example the scene when femto rapes caska made me feel the pain of caska and guts, due to the fact that the scene was pictured that explicit.

what other possibility do you have in order to make the happening appear more horrible than to _show_ what happens?
 

Ckrisz

Brooklyn Representah
The anime made me feel the same way. You really felt the agony that Guts and Caska were going through, and the horror of the betrayal.

But it didn't turn into a porno flick. It didn't show Caska being maneuvered around into every different position in the Kama Sutra. It didn't concentrate on her naked body to the exclusion of all else.

If anything, portraying the rape like that distracts from the horror. It makes it look, again, like pornography rather than horror. A rape scene can be both explicit and horrifying ... see the American film THE ACCUSED with Jodie Foster, where her character is gang-raped in a bar. Miura takes his cue here not from that movie or others like it, which respect the victim and focus on their emotional anguish, but rather from whatever XXX film he saw last. I was disgusted not by Femto's act, but instead by the way Miura was portraying the act and his intentions in doing so.
 

trapped_soul

"This is it. It's over."
If anything, portraying the rape like that distracts from the horror. It makes it look, again, like pornography rather than horror.
good point. it couldn't distract ME from the horror, 'though.

I was disgusted not by Femto's act, but instead by the way Miura was portraying the act and his intentions in doing so.
i see your point, but talking about miura's intention: what was his goal? inflicting pornography into the manga? i really doubt it.
but how i said, i'm in agreement with you. this one really doesn't represent miura's style at all.

however this isn't reason enough for me to say that i'm sick of berserk, that i don't wanna support miura anymore.
the things in berserk that i consider as being disturbing are few, to be honest i can't think of one thing in berserk that makes me feel disappointed.

i admire kentarou miura. he's one of a few people in this world who know what life's about.
just think about what idea you support when you buy a britney spears cd. (yet i don't think you do)
but try to think of products you've spent money for... i am pretty sure there are things that are worse than that caska raping in berserk, and nevertheless you supported it by buying it.
kind of contradictory, isn't it?

i don't think miura's idealising pornography, although we might find some questionable scenes in the manga.
 

Kenoh-Sama

"What is love? Not that I want some or anythi
Was flipping through all the volumes and saw some stuff that basically turned my stomach and kept me from buying them all on the spot ... hell, from buying any at all. And that was the treatment of my favorite character, Caska.

I'm referring to two scenes in particular: The first is Wild's attack on the Hawks and his capture of Caska. This is a scene straight out of hentai, as he strips her and proceeds to threaten rape with a comedically monstrous tongue. She just seemed to be frozen and whimper. I was pretty disgusted by this ... it had zero purpose beyond simply playing the exploitation card to sell books to perverts.

The second scene, and the deal-breaker for me, was Femto's rape of Caska during the Eclipse. The way this was drawn and presented really made me want to throw the book across the room. This is a key plot point and a major turning point for all of the characters. It's a brutal rape that represents the ultimate in savage betrayal, the final sin that makes Griffith ultimately irredeemable (at least in my eyes ... apparently not in some other folks'). This scene is drawn like something out of DEBBIE DOES DALLAS. Instead of Caska's mental anguish and the horror of the moment, we get her being humiliated in several different positions from many angles, going on for at least 3 pages. Miura doesn't seem to understand that rape is NOT PORNOGRAPHY. This scene really sickened me and at this point I've pretty much decided not to purchase any BERSERK manga, whereas before I was ready and willing to plunk down $84 for all 21 volumes.

Now, I'm not a Mormon or something like that. I have no problem with seeing Caska naked in situations like when she and Guts make love (which I thought was drawn quite respectfully). I don't even have a major problem seeing Caska naked and in danger of being raped in her current state, because that was the world back then and now and when someone's trying to rape you, your clothes are probably going to get ripped (not that I'm exactly ecstatic about this, either ... I don't like it at all). What I DO have a problem with is Miura repeatedly humiliating Caska, a character whom he mostly otherwise draws with great humanity and creativity, for the sole purpose of violent exploitative perversion. Compare the openly pornographic treatment of Caska's rape with Guts' rape by Donovan (another scene I saw for the first time). We see pretty explicit stuff, and both Donovan and lil Guts naked. But we don't get Guts flashed from all angles, with every nook and cranny of his body on display, like some goddamn child porn flick. Miura shows us the brutality and horror of the moment, and once this is done, moves on. That's the way to handle that kind of situation in an explicit but yet non-exploitative manner. But when Caska's in danger ... he seems to forget all restraint and plays exclusively to the rubber raincoat crowd. I've lost a whole lot of respect for him and the manga itself.

I'm not saying that BERSERK is now worthless. I plan on keeping up with the storyline and seeing how it all plays out, and also to contribute to this board. I love the anime and Miura's writing and creativity are still high in my eyes. But I sure as hell am not going to support the manga with my money while stuff like what I mentioned above is being drawn.

I'm venting right now, but I'd be interested in what other people thought when they saw those scenes in the manga. Did anyone else have a similar reaction to mine?

I don't like Griffith at all. I never did. He is beyond redemption. I'm totally in agreement with you there.

Regarding Wild I wasn't suprised because that was in his character from the beginning. His treatment of women was well documented. Even before he met Casca. What about the innocent girls he raped then slaughtered? The way he displayed their body parts on their spears? As disgusting and vile as that was that was the point. Wild is pure evil. That's it. Maybe you didn't like the bluntness of how Miura chose to show that but it was effective. That'a the kind of comic Berserk is. You have to get used to that. It's only going to get more brutal as time goes on.

As for Casca/Femto's scene I can say I'm not suprised or taken back at all. It was a violent rape surrounded by violent scenes of the hawks being slaughtered and Guts' anguish. It's not supposed to be pleasant. It's suppose to wrench your stomach and break your heart. The worse part of all (for me) was AFTERWARDS when Guts woke up and was running through the fields screaming and crying at what had happened. That for me was the worse. That was pure emotional torment. That was brutal. That was one of the most heart wrenching scenes in the comic.

Like I stated before that's the kind of comic Berserk is.
 

Fishbomb

Fear the slightly white swordsman!
Yeah, I have to agree with Kehoh-Sama here. That's the kind of manga Berserk is. Brutally explicit, and there's more to come in the later volumes. Persons of a weak stomach probably shouldn't read it.

Just think of pagan orgies, attempted rape, Mozguz torture of all those 'heretics'... yeah, and I love berserk for showing it. It is brutal. It is mature. They put their characters through the wringer. Of course it would be other scenes that could show this, tastefully faded out, but hell, would that have got the same reaction from people? I think not, because everyone does it...

What's so unique about berserk it that it is just as base and cruel, as it is sensetive and elegant. That scene with gatts running over the field... that was the one that convinced me to buy the manga, and hell, that's one of the most breathtaking ones in the whole series. Such pain.
 

Fishbomb

Fear the slightly white swordsman!
And let's not forget it's a Shonen manga.... and what kind of magazine it's published in. The design of Gatts was purely Shonen, as are the designs of apostles and so on... I wouldn't eb suprised if he has to have the occasional issue of naked flesh too to appease the editors...

I'm just glad he makes that Shonenism into one great story...

MODIFIED: As Olivier said below: SEINEN!! Agh! bakabakabakabaka.... that's what I meant *hides*
 

Ckrisz

Brooklyn Representah
I'm definitely not sick of BERSERK or anything like that. I've changed my mind somewhat, having gotten a little distance from my original feelings of pure disgust. I'll probably end up buying some manga, the later volumes perhaps, assuming they don't have any equivalent scenes. But no, I don't think I've bought anything that made rape into pornography like I believe that scene did.

My beef with the Wild scene is not the fact that he tries to rape Caska; I agree that goes with his character. But the simple way it's depicted ... Caska stands there, helpless, while Wild strips her and goes for her with that tongue ... it's the pure helplessness and unnecessary exploitativeness of the scene. We all know Wild's horny and evil. Do we need yet another scene where Caska submissively is about to be raped? Somehow I don't think a sane Caska would have just laid down like that ... remember, during the Eclipse she's taking charge. Only after all the Hawks are dead, when everything is lost, and when she's surrounded and without a weapon, are the demons able to take her.

Anyway, with regards to the rape scene again. I'm not objecting to it being stomach-turning and uncomfortable. It's that way in the anime. What I object to is Miura using it as an opportunity to give the raincoat crowd what it wants: rape depicted as sexual pornography, rather than as a savage act of violence. Maybe some people think that's the way it IS drawn ... undoubtedly it generates those emotions, yes. But it could have done that in a much less EXPLOITATIVE way. If you're going to argue that the way it is drawn is NOT exploitative and pornographic, I don't agree with you.

As for why Miura did this, I'd like to think that he's forced to draw so many rape scenes in order to get published by his particular magazine. Who knows ... I don't for sure. But I don't like it, and I don't think I'll be buying those issues that have those scenes in them. Again, I don't have an issue with explicit depictions of sex, violence, etc. That's part of the world the characters live in. What I do have an issue with is exploitative depictions of sexual violence. Like I've said, you can be explicit without being exploitative. That's the difference between art and pornography.

Miura is a GREAT talent and a very creative and skilled writer. I intend to support his work in the future, by buying the Region 1 legit anime DVDs and by getting the manga volumes that DON'T include unnecessary and sadistic exploitation. But I sure as hell ain't buying the stuff that does.
 

Kenoh-Sama

"What is love? Not that I want some or anythi
I'm definitely not sick of BERSERK or anything like that. I've changed my mind somewhat, having gotten a little distance from my original feelings of pure disgust. I'll probably end up buying some manga, the later volumes perhaps, assuming they don't have any equivalent scenes. But no, I don't think I've bought anything that made rape into pornography like I believe that scene did.

My beef with the Wild scene is not the fact that he tries to rape Caska; I agree that goes with his character. But the simple way it's depicted ... Caska stands there, helpless, while Wild strips her and goes for her with that tongue ... it's the pure helplessness and unnecessary exploitativeness of the scene. We all know Wild's horny and evil. Do we need yet another scene where Caska submissively is about to be raped? Somehow I don't think a sane Caska would have just laid down like that ... remember, during the Eclipse she's taking charge. Only after all the Hawks are dead, when everything is lost, and when she's surrounded and without a weapon, are the demons able to take her.

Anyway, with regards to the rape scene again. I'm not objecting to it being stomach-turning and uncomfortable. It's that way in the anime. What I object to is Miura using it as an opportunity to give the raincoat crowd what it wants: rape depicted as sexual pornography, rather than as a savage act of violence. Maybe some people think that's the way it IS drawn ... undoubtedly it generates those emotions, yes. But it could have done that in a much less EXPLOITATIVE way. If you're going to argue that the way it is drawn is NOT exploitative and pornographic, I don't agree with you.

As for why Miura did this, I'd like to think that he's forced to draw so many rape scenes in order to get published by his particular magazine. Who knows ... I don't for sure. But I don't like it, and I don't think I'll be buying those issues that have those scenes in them. Again, I don't have an issue with explicit depictions of sex, violence, etc. That's part of the world the characters live in. What I do have an issue with is exploitative depictions of sexual violence. Like I've said, you can be explicit without being exploitative. That's the difference between art and pornography.

Miura is a GREAT talent and a very creative and skilled writer. I intend to support his work in the future, by buying the Region 1 legit anime DVDs and by getting the manga volumes that DON'T include unnecessary and sadistic exploitation. But I sure as hell ain't buying the stuff that does.

"That's the difference between art and pornography"

Now that's debatable.
 
As for why Miura did this, I'd like to think that he's forced to draw so many rape scenes in order to get published by his particular magazine. Who knows ... I don't for sure. But I don't like it, and I don't think I'll be buying those issues that have those scenes in them. Again, I don't have an issue with explicit depictions of sex, violence, etc. That's part of the world the characters live in. What I do have an issue with is exploitative depictions of sexual violence. Like I've said, you can be explicit without being exploitative. That's the difference between art and pornography.

I doubt it. In fact I think it's just the opposite. I think that by publishing in a magazine like Young Animal, it allows Miura greater freedom to depict whatever the he wants. I believe that he is free to take out whatever scenes he chooses when the volumes are published.

Berserk provides us with a realistic and graphic description of a world that has a prevailing sense of anarchy to it. A high frequency of brutal rape and violence is simply part of that reality.
 

Walter

Administrator
Staff member
I know this is kinda late into this topic, and Im just reiterating what other people have said, but I feel strongly about this point.

At one point, Ckrisz argued that Volume 13 (manga)depicts the rape of Casca in the eclipse in a more graphic way than in the anime, and that the anime to an equal (greater?) extent invokes the emotion intended: despair and pain. Id have to disagree. THe anime has about 2 shots of the rape. The manga has 13 pages, and if you ever read the manga first, those panels are absurdly potent. That scene still hits me today. You just want it to END. You want to look away and make it stop. But the pages keep going... Youd be hard pressed to find a greater example of intentionally invoked pain and despair. The anime does these things to a minor fraction of a degree.

Bottom line, Miura DOES have a purpose for what he does.  If youre offended, then sorry, Berserk may not be for you. I certainly dont buy the manga for the nudity and/or "exploitation" of women. I buy it for the amazing work Miura has done and will do in the future. His manga is without a shadow of a doubt, the most complex, deeply thought out manga I have had the pleasure of following.

If you cant look beyond this one issue...then well...sorry, youre missing out.

Oh yeah and:
I'll probably end up buying some manga, the later volumes perhaps, assuming they don't have any equivalent scenes.
Hahahahahha!!!! Ohhh poor kid.
 

Chinmi

The best defense is a good offence!
Yeah.... when I first watched that scene, I was disgusted. Its probably the scariest scene I ever seen in manga history. I had nightmares after watching this. I probably will never forget it for the rest of my life..

I also felt angry for this injustice because I respect Caska. She doesn't deserve this bullshit...

But i hate to admit this but that is what makes Berserk effective. Muira likes to screw with the readers mind and then the readers will contine to read Berserk to see if a character ie Caska, would be o.k.

First he make you, then he break you.
 

Ckrisz

Brooklyn Representah
*sigh*

Well, I'll respond to what people have said. I think some folks are somewhat misunderstanding what I'm trying to say.

Kenoh-sama ... I'm not sure what you're saying ... is it that there's a debatable line between art and pornography?

Faust said:
Berserk provides us with a realistic and graphic description of a world that has a prevailing sense of anarchy to it.  A high frequency of brutal rape and violence is simply part of that reality.

I've already said:
I don't even have a major problem seeing Caska naked and in danger of being raped in her current state, because that was the world back then and now and when someone's trying to rape you, your clothes are probably going to get ripped

And:

Again, I don't have an issue with explicit depictions of sex, violence, etc. That's part of the world the characters live in. What I do have an issue with is exploitative depictions of sexual violence. Like I've said, you can be explicit without being exploitative.

If the scene didn't turn your switch, then great, I'm definitely with you. My problem is that it was, in my opinion, drawn with at least SOME pornographic intent and was openly appealing to those folks out there who enjoy and/or get off reading that kind of crap. If you think that the rape scene with Caska is not pornographic or intended that way at all, well, I guess we agree to disagree. I don't think that Miura drew it with ONLY perverted intentions on his mind ... yes, the rape is meant to be a horrifying violation as well. I've said that before. But I think that the sales boost gained by showing plenty of rape and nudity wasn't far from either his mind or the publisher's. Given the prevalence of similar scenarios in many anime, I'd have to say that, sadly, there is a market for this crud (witness the success of LEGEND OF THE OVERFIEND and LA BLUE GIRL in both Japan and the West). In case anyone was offended by what I said, I don't mean to imply that by reading BERSERK avidly, you are this kind of person. Hell, I follow BERSERK avidly as well. Walter made the point that he follows BERSERK because its complex and well thought out ... I think the majority of people on this board do so and myself as well. That's why I'm posting here, as opposed to the many other boards out there with a younger population.

What I'm saying is that there's a line between explicitness, intended to make a forceful, graphic point and/or to drive home emotional pain (or whatever, depending on the scene) and exploitation, which displays gratuitous nudity/violence/rape/sex for the purpose of gratifying and making money off of those people who enjoy seeing specifically those kinds of things (and not just of women). It's my opinion that Miura crossed that line in Caska's rape scene. If you disagree with me, that's your opinion ... but that's mine. As evidence, I'd offer again Guts' rape by Donovan, which as I mentioned above, is portrayed very differently. I would say that is explicit ... but the Caska rape crosses into the exploitative.

I mean, take a very explicit movie that explores complex themes in a brutal world, like say APOCALYPSE NOW REDUX or SCHINDLER'S LIST. What if in the first film, we saw not only Martin Sheen bartering fuel for the services of the Playboy Bunnies, but graphic depictions of the GIs using them against their will? Not just for a few frames, but in hardcore detail, focusing on the women's bodies, moved to different sexual positions by their rapists, not just for a few frames but for several minutes? Or a scene where Ralph Fiennes' Nazi camp commandant forces himself on his Jewish maid, that again is horribly graphic, focuses on the maid's body as he moves her to several different positions, going on for several minutes? This would hammer home the grotesque brutality of the rapes, yes. It would also be, in my opinion, unnecessary to communicate the needed point and make both films worse.

Giving another example, I'd say that that the gruesome and stomach-churning film HENRY: PORTRAIT OF A SERIAL KILLER is explicit, while stuff like FRIDAY THE 13TH is exploitative (but also funny as hell ... I don't think that FRIDAY the 13th is meant to be serious ... nonetheless, it shows plenty of gratuitous nudity and sex and violence, and exists for no other reason).

And by the way, Walter, thanks for hosting and creating this great website, regardless of whether you think I'm a "poor kid."   ;D
 

Fishbomb

Fear the slightly white swordsman!
Olivier: *grins* Thanks... that's what I meant.

My two cents:

I am a great lover of hentai and porn of all sorts, probably more disgusting kinds than you all like to think. I've seen mostly everything you can name, and has probably got it on my harddrive too. Yeah, I get off on it *grins*

I have probably watched most two bit sleazy euro/asian thrash movies out there, hardcore and non hardcore, including more Franco movies than I'd like to remember (*shivers* did he have to star in all of them himself?)

In short, I'm one of those net freaks and disgusting things that gets of on unnamable stuff available only in the form of drawings. I also might add that I have a longstanding (and very platonic) love affair with Casca.

So... what is the bottom line with me? Do I get off on that scene? Is volume 13 the most read one in my colelction?

Hell no! WTF? That scene is one of the most powerful ones in the manga. Exlicit? Sure as hell... why? Because for a moment there we are witness to what Gatts is seeing. Yeah. The very act that made some people throw their manga at the wall, also made Gatts hack of his own arm just to stop it. Powerful? Yeah. Agonising? Utterly. Gatts is seeing Casca there. Beautiful. Ravishing. And utterly helpless in the arms of his former friend. Who's doing it for kicks...

Same thing with the Wild scene... we get an inside peek into Gatts motivations here. What makes him get up again when he should have stayed down.

Sure, Miura might have done things differently... but then he wouldn't be Miura. No stops. All the way. True Berserk.

That guy fucking rocks in my book.
 

Kenoh-Sama

"What is love? Not that I want some or anythi
*sigh*

Well, I'll respond to what people have said. I think some folks are somewhat misunderstanding what I'm trying to say.

Kenoh-sama ... I'm not sure what you're saying ... is it that there's a debatable line between art and pornography?

Faust said:

I've already said:

And:


If the scene didn't turn your switch, then great, I'm definitely with you. My problem is that it was, in my opinion, drawn with at least SOME pornographic intent and was openly appealing to those folks out there who enjoy and/or get off reading that kind of crap. If you think that the rape scene with Caska is not pornographic or intended that way at all, well, I guess we agree to disagree. I don't think that Miura drew it with ONLY perverted intentions on his mind ... yes, the rape is meant to be a horrifying violation as well. I've said that before. But I think that the sales boost gained by showing plenty of rape and nudity wasn't far from either his mind or the publisher's. Given the prevalence of similar scenarios in many anime, I'd have to say that, sadly, there is a market for this crud (witness the success of LEGEND OF THE OVERFIEND and LA BLUE GIRL in both Japan and the West). In case anyone was offended by what I said, I don't mean to imply that by reading BERSERK avidly, you are this kind of person. Hell, I follow BERSERK avidly as well. Walter made the point that he follows BERSERK because its complex and well thought out ... I think the majority of people on this board do so and myself as well. That's why I'm posting here, as opposed to the many other boards out there with a younger population.

What I'm saying is that there's a line between explicitness, intended to make a forceful, graphic point and/or to drive home emotional pain (or whatever, depending on the scene) and exploitation, which displays gratuitous nudity/violence/rape/sex for the purpose of gratifying and making money off of those people who enjoy seeing specifically those kinds of things (and not just of women). It's my opinion that Miura crossed that line in Caska's rape scene. If you disagree with me, that's your opinion ... but that's mine. As evidence, I'd offer again Guts' rape by Donovan, which as I mentioned above, is portrayed very differently. I would say that is explicit ... but the Caska rape crosses into the exploitative.

I mean, take a very explicit movie that explores complex themes in a brutal world, like say APOCALYPSE NOW REDUX or SCHINDLER'S LIST. What if in the first film, we saw not only Martin Sheen bartering fuel for the services of the Playboy Bunnies, but graphic depictions of the GIs using them against their will? Not just for a few frames, but in hardcore detail, focusing on the women's bodies, moved to different sexual positions by their rapists, not just for a few frames but for several minutes? Or a scene where Ralph Fiennes' Nazi camp commandant forces himself on his Jewish maid, that again is horribly graphic, focuses on the maid's body as he moves her to several different positions, going on for several minutes? This would hammer home the grotesque brutality of the rapes, yes. It would also be, in my opinion, unnecessary to communicate the needed point and make both films worse.

Giving another example, I'd say that that the gruesome and stomach-churning film HENRY: PORTRAIT OF A SERIAL KILLER is explicit, while stuff like FRIDAY THE 13TH is exploitative (but also funny as hell ... I don't think that FRIDAY the 13th is meant to be serious ... nonetheless, it shows plenty of gratuitous nudity and sex and violence, and exists for no other reason).

And by the way, Walter, thanks for hosting and creating this great website, regardless of whether you think I'm a "poor kid."   ;D

Yes there is. I was a illustration major in college and was exposed to lots of different kinds of art. Some people were offended by obviously sexual peices of work why others saw past that to actually critique the way anyone would critique art.

The basic Idea regarding Poronography is to turn you on and get you off. That chapter did not turn me on. So I do not consider it pornography. It was a fucked up scene that showed how much of a cock sucker Griffith is. I was not reading a Hentai Doujinshi, I was reading the culmination of a tragic storyline. It all depends on your tolerance level.
 
I am a great lover of hentai and porn of all sorts, probably more disgusting kinds than you all like to think. I've seen mostly everything you can name, and has probably got it on my harddrive too. Yeah, I get off on it *grins*


We all know about you Fishy. :p
 

Griffith

With the streak of a tear, Like morning dew
Maybe this would serve a better purpose posted here.

Berserk; incredibly deep characters, beautiful artwork, and a multi-layered story that maintains an unmatched level of gritty realism; it doesn’t shy away from graphic sex or violence for the sake of ‘legitimacy’, in fact, it feels more legitimate than anything else I’ve seen or read because of it.
My problem with all this is that you’re basically saying anything a pervert could potentially get off on is pornography and should therefore be shunned? In the literal sense of the word, people who get off on pornography aren’t perverts, because that’s what pornography was specifically designed to do, people that see pornography in other things are the one’s with the problem. I think you should be careful you aren’t doing exactly what the perverts you disgust do, even though you’re enraged by the rape scene rather than turned on by it (I agree with you, that would be very fucking sick), your still perverting it’s meaning and it’s purpose. When you start judging valid works (Apocalypse Now Redux, Schindler’s List, oh c’mon, and in this case Berserk) by pornography, that’s real perversion at work.

Berserk has what some would consider pornographic images, but it isn’t for the sake of pornography, but for the sake realism. With the scene as is, people are having enough trouble understanding Caska’s mental and emotional turmoil. Caska was brutally raped, it’s one of the most important scenes in the entire series (and yes, it comes up again and again, it’s continually dealt with throughout the rest of Berserk and still effects the characters today, it’s purpose was not just to get people off), passing over it lightly or somehow doing the brutal demonic rape scene in a “tasteful fashion” would not do her character justice at all in my opinion.

-Griffith

P.S. Thanks for being open-minded enough not to just put Berserk down forever (I’m sure a lot of other people have just dismissed it based on it’s graphic nature, or worse, liked it only because of it), I don’t think you would have shared these feelings with us and been “interested” in what we had to say if you weren’t hoping to be proven wrong just a little, or I’m just dumbass. ;D

P.P.S.
I am a great lover of hentai and porn of all sorts, probably more disgusting kinds than you all like to think. I've seen mostly everything you can name, and has probably got it on my harddrive too. Yeah, I get off on it *grins*
*heart beats out of chest* Enchantress! :eek:
 
I really don't know if the way they treat Caska is fair or not. I own all the books, and have seen the phases of Caska.

If what Femto did to Caska bothers, in Chapter 188 or 189 (can't remember) Guts forces himself upon her. He kept dwelling on the fact that he is having a hard time protecting her. He then kisses her in a rape type fashion.
 

Chinmi

The best defense is a good offence!
I don't think it is porn too. I think Muira wants to get that "in your face" effect. Its hard enough to watch Caska getting abused but it is more shocking and painful to watch with such graphic details for a long while. The way he "directed" that part cause a strong emotion impact on the reader. Do u know what i mean?

If he have just shown a short page of Caska being abused like that, it won't have that kind of impact. Muira doesn't sugarcone the truth. He tells it like it is without holding back.
 

puella

Berserk forever
Instead of Caska's mental anguish and the horror of the moment, we get her being humiliated in several different positions from many angles, going on for at least 3 pages.  
I agree. I've always thought something very important was not fully described in that scene.
the missing points are as Ckrisz said, 'Caska's mental anguish' and 'her struggle against the rape'.
my two cents are;

1) Caska's mental anguish

Methinks,this hasn't been fully described everytime she is on the verge of being raped. She's just frozen almost always.

2) struggle agianst the rape by Femto

I understand that situation. she couldn't let even one finger go taken by dreadful evils and totally exhausted for the eclipse.
but Miura could have made her struggle at least. at least!
all she did is just to say 'no' in a feeble voice. she's just frozen again in that most horrible rape. she seemed  to give up all things from the first scene of rape.

and what is worse, can you remeber the scene *blushes* after rape had done, 'something' was coming out of her body.
'something' is *blushes agian* what we call "physiological secretion" which comes from woman's body when she feels 'rapture or ecstasy' of sex. *blushes completely*
I wonder why Miura drew 'that'. I think he could have skipped this scene. for the detail? I don't know.
my friend says to me 'it' can happen even in the rape. yeah I know. but I dare to ask Miura "did you really have to draw that?"

In many ways, I think it is true our poor female character Caska and other girls in berserk are degraded in many parts of manga, especially being nearly raped scene.

However, I don't think this can be the clue which makes some people give up buyng the manga.
 

Ckrisz

Brooklyn Representah
Thanks Griffith & Puella for not jumping on me.  ;D

Griffith, I didn't mean to suggest that anything a pervert could get off on is pornographic, or even that pornography is bad in the right context. Reading back, you're right that it does look that I am. Hell, I've watched hentai, regular porn ... any male with a normal hormone level growing up in an open Western society probably has. And I certainly didn't mean to compare the films I cited with porn ... I was trying to give an example of how scenes in those films depicting sexual aggression had been played, and how it would have seriously degraded those films if they had been played as Miura drew Caska's rape. Yes, they would have added intensity and a certain edge to jam into the audience's brain. I just think they would have lost more.

My basic problem is with someone presenting rape AS pornography, that is something intended to arouse people. A lot of hentai is unfortunately doing just this, OVERFIEND being the most well-known example. Rape should not be something people get sexually aroused by; I think we can all agree on this. I realize that I'm drawing a pretty fine line here, trying to read Miura's mind ... but I think that Miura was drawing that particular scene in a fashion that is VERY similar to what one would see in the "rape" hentai genre; the same with Wild's attempted rape of Caska. Part of my anger was that such a fine piece of work like BERSERK would sink to such a level. I certainly wouldn't have had the gut reaction I did if I didn't think of Caska as a well thought out, complex, and "real" character. Again, I'll go back to the rape of Guts by Donovan. I was plenty horrified by this. I don't think I would have been more horrified if we had seen Guts drawn as Caska was, for page after page, sexual position after sexual position.

Puella makes a very good point in that we never really see Caska actively fighting the rape ... this is NOT to say that she welcomed it at all, or Miura meant to say that she liked it, or whatever. But if she had fought, or screamed in agony, or even bled all over the place (I do NOT think she was at all aroused or ready for what Femto did), this would amplified the fact that this is something horrible and the ONLY proper response is horror. Granted some folks would probably be even more turned on by this, but it would have made the distinction between the typical exploitation-hentai rape scene and the horror of Griffith's betrayal that much more clear ... at least in my mind, and I think to the vast majority of people.
 

Griffith

With the streak of a tear, Like morning dew
Thanks Griffith & Puella for not jumping on me.
No problem, I’m glad we could discuss this maturely and intelligently, and I think we all came away understading eachother a little bit better.

Now excuse me while I jump all over Puella. ;D

we get her being humiliated in several different positions from many angles, going on for at least 3 pages.
Rape isn’t humiliating? What was she supposed to do, take it in stride?  

1) Caska's mental anguish

Methinks,this hasn't been fully described everytime she is on the verge of being raped. She's just frozen almost always.
Oh yeah, except for when she fights off her attackers or KILLS them, otherwise she’s totally helpless.  It's not like they'd even have the chance were she sane, most of the time she doesn’t perceive the danger until it’s too late because of her mental condition.

2) struggle agianst the rape by Femto

I understand that situation. she couldn't let even one finger go taken by dreadful evils and totally exhausted for the eclipse.
but Miura could have made her struggle at least. at least!
Struggle??! He’s a God Hand!!! Skull Knight can’t even touch ‘em, they have unfathomable power, and you expect a physically and mentally exhausted Casca to fight him somehow?  Not to mention she recognized him as Griffith, the one thing in her life that's always been secure, her whole perception of reality was shattered when he kissed her, how could she fight something like that?

and what is worse, can you remeber the scene *blushes* after rape had done, 'something' was coming out of her body.
'something' is *blushes agian* what we call "physiological substance" which comes from woman's body when she feels 'rapture or ecstasy' having sex. *blushes completely*
I think that "physiological substance" was Femto’s actually, ahem, the contamination of the child.

In many ways, I think it is true our poor female character Caska and other girls in berserk are degraded in many parts of manga, especially being nearly raped scene.
Because women of the time were very much degraded, one theme in Berserk is how hard life was (is) for woman, especially one like Casca that wasn’t playing a traditional role in society. All that is lost if you blame Casca for everything that happens to her because she isn’t some unrealistic super-woman! Miura is simply addressing a controversial issue realistically, he sympathizes with Casca's plight, he shows that this victimization isn’t the fault of women, but the fault of the world they have no choice but to live in the best they can.  Because Casca was born a woman, the odds have always been totally against her, and she is fighting the best anyone could in that kind of situation.  And her struggle has been the hardest of any woman in Berserk, because she has endured and come farther than any other, nobody could go through what she has any better than she has, man or woman!

-Griffith

CASCA FOREVER! SHE R0X0RS!!
 

Ckrisz

Brooklyn Representah
Ack! Griffith, that first quote of Puella's was mine!

Anyway, with regards to that one, I was using "humiliation" to point out that Miura was once again humiliating Caska with a brutal sexual assault. Yes, I know, it's all in the world and the time period, but it gets annoyingly repetitive sometimes.

With regards to Caska fighting ... well, Guts fights like hell. Doesn't go nowhere, but he does it. He fights Donovan when HE'S being raped, for instance. Caska merely submits with nary a whimper in the Femto scene and also the Wild scene. I enjoyed the heck out of the moment where she stabbed the Chudan mercenary in the eye, and I hear there is a further scene in one of the later manga where she reverts to warrior-Caska for a moment and kills some more would-be rapists. No problem with that, I like rapists getting what they deserve. However, this contrasts with her spellbound behavior before Wild and Femto. This just makes the hentai aspects stick out more for me ... fighting one minute, then submitting glazed-eyed the next. You could argue emotional overload, stress, shock of the supernatural, etc. ... I don't buy it. At the very least, like Puella said, you could get a "No!"

But if she had fought, or screamed in agony, or even bled all over the place (I do NOT think she was at all aroused or ready for what Femto did), this would amplified the fact that this is something horrible and the ONLY proper response is horror. Granted some folks would probably be even more turned on by this, but it would have made the distinction between the typical exploitation-hentai rape scene and the horror of Griffith's betrayal that much more clear ... at least in my mind, and I think to the vast majority of people.  

I'm with you, though. CASKA FOREVER!!!!!!!! Now I just wish Miura would give our girl some more damn dignity.

Wow, I just realized I am turning into the King of the Long-Winded Post. Promise to cut down in the future ;D
 
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