Treatment of Caska in the manga **SPOILERS**

Ack! Griffith, that first quote of Puella's was mine!

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Whoops, I fixed it somewhat, I didn’t bother putting the correct time or anything, who cares? Sorry Puella and Chrisz, witness the horrors of messing with the quotes too damn much, I wish those text boxes weren’t so small, they’re a bit claustrophobic and…excuses, excuses, blah, blah, bah, I’m a boob. :)

Anyway, with regards to that one, I was using "humiliation" to point out that Miura was once again humiliating Caska with a brutal sexual assault. Yes, I know, it's all in the world and the time period, but it gets annoyingly repetitive sometimes.

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Imagine how Casca feels, then. It’s not something she can help, she has to deal with it everyday of her life. People look at her and say “Why didn’t she fight harder? Where’s her dignity?”, but imagine having to live as her?

At the very least, like Puella said, you could get a "No!"

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Actually, Puella said a simple ‘no’ wasn’t enough, not that Casca didn’t say it.

Caska merely submits with nary a whimper in the Femto scene and also the Wild scene.

her spellbound behavior before Wild and Femto. This just makes the hentai aspects stick out more for me ... fighting one minute, then submitting glazed-eyed the next. You could argue emotional overload, stress, shock of the supernatural, etc. ... I don't buy it.

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That’s not true, actually. I don’t know what people expect from Casca, forget that she’s a woman, shes’ a human being against Gods and Monsters.  At the Eclipse, she was the only Hawk besides Pippin and Guts to attack the Apostles offensively, she charged them alone after Judeau died, unprepared but without fear. When Guts faced Zodd he was a wreck, he had never felt such fear before, should more be expected of Casca?  And She also wasn’t mesmerized when Wild came for her, she went for her sword but it was too late and Wild grabbed her before she had a chance to attack. Even then she wasn’t paralyzed with fear, she was indeed helpless, but not mentally, physically, Wild had her in his grip, and even Guts couldn’t fight that when Wild had him.  And all this business about fighting Femto, he is a Demi-God, if Femto had wanted to rape Guts, it would have happened, plain and simple.  But that’s something Guts dosen’t have to worry about in his struggle, only Casca.  Guts knows what it feels like to be violated, but he doesn’t know what’s it’s like to be desired by every creep and monster in Midland (including himself it would seem), that’s something Casca has to face alone, and I’m sure not going to blame her for it or hold it against her because her struggle is that much harder, it’s why I admire her so much.

-Griffith

Struggle??! He’s a God Hand!!! Skull Knight can’t even touch ‘em, they have unfathomable power, and you expect a physically and mentally exhausted Casca to fight him somehow?  Not to mention she recognized him as Griffith, the one thing in her life that's always been secure, her whole perception of reality was shattered when he kissed her, how could she fight something like that?

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thank you for reminding me Femto is Godhand. ;D
I didn't expect Caska to fight Femto. All I want is just a poor struggle. Caska was a great fighter but when it comes to 'being raped' by evils, she just fails into a helpless girl like those who never had a fight. I do know how strong evil things are.
but according to what you said, I get to wonder how Guts can fight Godhand.
Guts did swing his sword at Godhand at Least!
and why do you think I might blame Caska for the rape?
Wow, you think I'm a cold-blooded misogynist? ;D
I'm not comfortable with that 'helplessness of girls in berserk' though it is inevitable destiny for every woman in Middle Age.

Think about it like this...If there were tentacles holding each of her limbs, with deep cuts in her arms from their claws, while she was being raped, wouldnt that mean that she was fighting?

Those Tentacles were holding her there BECAUSE she was fighting back. Despite the fact that she was in terrible physical condition, and Griffith, the love of her life (up until a point) was raping her, she was fighting, however feebly.  Read between the lines folks...

PS: I will admit that the tentacles also hold a different purpose: to um... position her. But the fact remains, the tentacles had to intervene in order for the "ordeal" to run smoothly for Femto. She was indeed fighting back.

thank you for reminding me Femto is Godhand. ;D
I didn't expect Caska to fight Femto. All I want is just a poor struggle. Caska was a great fighter but when it comes to 'being raped' by evils, she just fails into a helpless girl like those who never had a fight. I do know how strong evil things are.
but according to what you said, I get to wonder how Guts can fight Godhand.
Guts did swing his sword at Godhand at Least!

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He did, but Femto wasn’t trying to rape Guts, see what I mean?

and why do you think I might blame Caska for the rape?
Wow, you think I'm a cold-blooded misogynist?

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A little. ;D
No, not really, but I do think you hold things against her that are beyond her control.  Like I said, if Femto had wanted to rape Guts or to kill him, Guts would have been just as helpless as Casca.  Guts doesn’t avoid Casca’s humiliations because he’s strong and she’s weak, but because theyaren’t something he’s faced with at all (you should really be mad about the lack of strong female Apostles in the series), that’s what I mean when I say you only hate Casca because she’s a woman.

-Griffith

P.S.

Read between the lines folks...

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Thank Zodd, some back up.

that’s what I mean when I say you only hate Casca because she’s a woman.

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Griffith, it's not true though I see what you want to say.
I like some of females.

Actually, it may be my personal prejudice yeah I admit I don't like her.
and I don't know exactly why while I like Lucca, Roshinu, Slann, Jill and even Farneese. but it is very true that Caska always sickens me.
Let me tell you something. When Caska's voice comes out watching the anime, I even felt like turning off the computer.

but i'd say my holdings against Caska is not from my prejudice.
and I always wonder why most people'd like to take 'justifying' and 'praising' about the manga much more than 'critisizing' and 'opposite point of view'.
I think there should be 'two opposite points of views' because we love berserk very much and 'the point of view' is depend on what we think.
Walter found out Caska's feeble fighting in that tragic scene but there might be some people who don't take it like that.
In this point , I'm not against anything. and if you noticed that
I said 'good point, interesting' in many threads, actually I almost always did, you can understand what I try to say.
besides I don't like to contradict. All I want is other people's thoughts even if I myslef joined several arguments.
I hate something monotonous(not that you are monotnous)  ;D
So I need various speculations of all the people as long as they are not malicious.
yeah, I'm very tough woman as you know and always curious about every stuff. this is why I love berserk.
Berserk world is very tough and it makes me always wonder.
Basically I don't like romantic mood in berserk. fight by fight that's what I want.

Oh, I made too many ramblings.
O.K I'll shut up. :-X

*takes a step back for a moment, then applauds*

Guys, Girls!! Have you realised something???

---> We're having a quite deep arguement regarding the treatment of a female character, and whether that reflects the world as a whole, or just is a part of the writers lust for young nubile flesh. And what's more...

We're doing it withough flaming one another!!!

Yay! Horay for us all! Different viewpoints, real debating, some spotlight on my favourice character... and real discussions instead of just... 'how long is Gatts sword really...'

Hell, we should all pat our backs for that, really *grins*

Damn, I really love this board, you know that, right?

-----

Ahem. Back to business.

This might be like tossing a lit match into an empty gasoline tank, but.... a few comments:


I really don't think Casca could fight Femto any more than she did. Not because he's a godhand. But because he's Griffith. If Griffith had been in his normal form, then I think the result should have been the same. casca can't fight Griffith. She would not fight him. At least not back then... now? I dunno.

Gatts rape: I have to disagree there. If we had been treated to 13 pages (or even five) of Gatts being raped in every angle, I think that the horror of it all would have been so great that most people would have put down the book never to read it again. I mean... take a deep breath and imagine it drawn by Miura, in every agonising detail. Wouldn't that be more horrifying than the, albeit disturbing panels we were treated to?

The most horrific thing to do is always to combine extreme graphix detail, with strong characters you feel about, and a sensetive direction/drawing. The best example I can think of is 'Men behind the sun'. I still can't watch that one without feeling so bad I want to puke afterwards...

No problem, I’m glad we could discuss this maturely and intelligently, and I think we all came away understading eachother a little bit better.

Now excuse me while I jump all over Puella. ;D

Rape isn’t humiliating? What was she supposed to do, take it in stride?  

Oh yeah, except for when she fights off her attackers or KILLS them, otherwise she’s totally helpless.  It's not like they'd even have the chance were she sane, most of the time she doesn’t perceive the danger until it’s too late because of her mental condition.

Struggle??! He’s a God Hand!!! Skull Knight can’t even touch ‘em, they have unfathomable power, and you expect a physically and mentally exhausted Casca to fight him somehow?  Not to mention she recognized him as Griffith, the one thing in her life that's always been secure, her whole perception of reality was shattered when he kissed her, how could she fight something like that?

I think that "physiological substance" was Femto’s actually, ahem, the contamination of the child.

Because women of the time were very much degraded, one theme in Berserk is how hard life was (is) for woman, especially one like Casca that wasn’t playing a traditional role in society. All that is lost if you blame Casca for everything that happens to her because she isn’t some unrealistic super-woman! Miura is simply addressing a controversial issue realistically, he sympathizes with Casca's plight, he shows that this victimization isn’t the fault of women, but the fault of the world they have no choice but to live in the best they can.  Because Casca was born a woman, the odds have always been totally against her, and she is fighting the best anyone could in that kind of situation.  And her struggle has been the hardest of any woman in Berserk, because she has endured and come farther than any other, nobody could go through what she has any better than she has, man or woman!

-Griffith

CASCA FOREVER! SHE R0X0RS!!

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Wow. This is beginning to be a pattern. I'm agreeing with you!

How can caska struggle against Femto? He is (to put it poetically) the wings of God! Besides she did get roughed up pretty badly by those demons before Femto laid a hand on her. She had no chance.

I'm kind of relieved to see that there ARE so many people out there, especially the thoughtful BERSERK fans whose posts I've read on this board many a time, who do disagree with me. It shows me that Miura's drawings could be interpreted by a lot of smart folks in a way totally opposite to what I thought he was trying to get across, which reinforces the idea that Miura wasn't playing only for the hentai tentacle-rape crowd in this scene.

However, I still have my opinion. At least in my mind, the discussion's gotten to the level where it's been discussed about as far as it can be --- it comes down to whether you think the shock value of the Femto rape scene overwhelms the prurience of it totally or only partially. I'm of the second opinion.

As I said before, I won't stop supporting BERSERK. I'll wait for the Region 1 DVDs of the anime series to come out, and I'll be purchasing them, and the manga series as well (minus the book that has the Femto rape scene). It's still one of the best stories I've ever seen and I'll be waiting eagerly for the rest of the series. But if Miura does have another traumatic rape scene (and somehow I think he will) ... I hope he has some second thoughts about how to portray it. I don't think he will, of course, that's his artistic and/or commercial choice, but that's just my 2 cents.

:Re: Treatment of Caska in the manga **SPOILERS**

My opinion of Caska has always been the same. She is a very strong and proud woman. She accomplished much in her life. How many women do you know who had the courage to rise from the bottom of the barrel and make to the top of the food chain...not many, huh? In this case, Caska came from a poor and uneducated family and with time, earned the rank of General in Midland's top army. Impressive!  However, even with her accomplishments with the Hawks, she was still critized (namely Adon). I think she once told Gutts that she hated being female and that she always wanted to be born a man. Thats what makes here so damn brave. Mentally, she can hold here own against any man. Physically, against some but not most. And emotionally, only two men have truly conquered her. So she falls in love with Gutts, so what...does that make her weak and dependant...ofcourse not. More power to her.

But she has simply been through too much all her life. During her childhood she was almost raped by that scum nobleman. Can you imagine how scarred she could have been if that had actually happened. Still, that experience traumatized her, and from that point she probably began feeling that shame for being female. I dont think it was shown, but that very memory must have resurfaced when Wild tried to rape her. Then it finally happened in the eclipse, by her one-time firstlove. That completely devastated her. Not to mention all her friends, whom she considered family, were killed in the cruelest and most unimaginary way conceivable.

Now heres my say about the adult content. It is a sad thing the evil that man is capable of, but it does happen in the real world. Just because we don't see it don't mean it ain't happening. This occurs all over the world. Miura is depicting that very evil in Berserk. Those depictions provides a high level of shock and truth. Sure if some joe shmoe who knew nothing of Berserk picked up Volume 13 or 18, this person would have a biased opinion. But if the same joe shmoe started from the beginning, then he would have a more informed opinion.

ok I'm done.

I'm kind of relieved to see that there ARE so many people out there, especially the thoughtful BERSERK fans whose posts I've read on this board many a time, who do disagree with me. It shows me that Miura's drawings could be interpreted by a lot of smart folks in a way totally opposite to what I thought he was trying to get across, which reinforces the idea that Miura wasn't playing only for the hentai tentacle-rape crowd in this scene.

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yeah, Ckrisz. I think the rape scene in vol.13 can be interpreted in many ways, up to the views from each person.
In a word, that scene has much ambiguities, so I've been wondering all the time.

(minus the book that has the Femto rape scene)

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I don't want to be in your own opinion but vol.13 is one of the most important part of the manga. In a way, the most important scene could be, I think.
Vol 13 epitomizes many things-love ,betrayal,dream, evil and so on icluding who Miura is by far.
I've read and read vol.13.
and Miura's brutal and graphic depiction of the rape is far from hentai manga.

**** I like Caska most when she keeps the Hawks all alone as a commander with two guys' absence.

Puella, you're so right. Which is kind of why I had the initial heated reaction I did --- that Miura would depict such an important and emotionally wrenching scene the way he did. I'm still of the opinion that if you took that scene totally out of context, or drew it exactly out except with different peoples' heads on the characters' bodies, it would fit right into a scene of OVERFIEND or LA BLUE GIRL. That is, it was drawn in at least SOMETHING of the style of hentai, with at least some of the intentions.

I know folks will say that you CAN'T take it out of context or replace the characters, but I'm just making the point I think that he drew it in that particular style for several reasons, some of which (I believe) did not have to do with emotional impact or even shock value, but rather to appeal to the hentai-rape folks. Nonetheless, as I said above, I am glad that many people on here did NOT get that message and are taking what I believe is the correct emotional stance on it, which hints to me that Miura didn't have purely hentai intentions there and managed to communicate his point to a large number of people. But as I said before, I'm not convinced that was his ONLY purpose in drawing that scene that way. And that's just my opinion.

I'm not convinced that was his ONLY purpose in drawing that scene that way. And that's just my opinion.

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ok fine. The truth is....SEX SELLS

there!! ;)

But as I said before, I'm not convinced that was his ONLY purpose in drawing that scene that way. And that's just my opinion.

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alright. and what would be another purpose for miura?
i wanna hear that.

alright. and what would be another purpose for miura?
i wanna hear that.

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to get the folks who like hentai-rape into Berserk...
thats basically what his first post was about...

to get the folks who like hentai-rape into Berserk...
thats basically what his first post was about...

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you guys can't be serious. i'm pretty sure this is not miura's intention.

thats what the whole debate was about...more or less

thats what the whole debate was about...more or less

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actually we weren't discussing about wether miura intended to get the hentai freaks into berserk or not.

** holds head **

I know it takes a LOT of time with my posts ... but please read them! ;D

** holds head **

I know it takes a LOT of time with my posts ... but please read them!  ;D

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i _did_ read your posts!!! my question "what other purpose could there be?" was meant ironically.

my point is that it's certainly not miura's purpose to inflict porn scenes into berserk in order to make more people read it.

Oh okay ... sorry. ;D

At any rate, on this point we disagree. I don't think that Miura drew the rape scene with ONLY this in mind, at least not anymore. But I don't think that was far from his mind. Compare this scene with your typical anime hentai rape-porn, or indeed with any xxx porn flick. It's tough to see much of a difference, at least in my opinion. *shrug*

At this point, we're into mind-reading, which is pretty much impossible. Just from the evidence before me, that's my opinion, which anyone's free to disagree with.

Oh okay ... sorry.  ;D
Compare this scene with your typical anime hentai rape-porn, or indeed with any xxx porn flick. It's tough to see much of a difference, at least in my opinion. *shrug*

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What about context?

Youre analyzing simply the one scene of the rape. You have to step back and look at the whole picture. Teh events before and after to interpret the intent of the scene.

The placement of the rape scene is just after the biggest turning point in the series, a moment of pure despair.

The placement of a rape scene in a typical hentai would be: girl walks into apartment, then gets raped by a burgaler...Maybe the hamburgaler."

See what I mean?

Just to quote from an earlier post:

I know folks will say that you CAN'T take it out of context or replace the characters, but I'm just making the point I think that he drew it in that particular style for several reasons, some of which (I believe) did not have to do with emotional impact or even shock value, but rather to appeal to the hentai-rape folks. Nonetheless, as I said above, I am glad that many people on here did NOT get that message and are taking what I believe is the correct emotional stance on it, which hints to me that Miura didn't have purely hentai intentions there and managed to communicate his point to a large number of people. But as I said before, I'm not convinced that was his ONLY purpose in drawing that scene that way. And that's just my opinion.

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Honestly, I think this debate has run it’s course, it was certainly worth having and it has defiantly accomplished something, but unless someone has a monumental point to make that hasn’t already been made, there’s no purpose in rehashing it again and again. I have my opinion, Chrisz has his, Puella hates Casca, everyone else has their opinion, and we all have our reasons why, and we cant’ argue each other into thinking like completely different people. I believe this argument has already done everything is could possibly do, it raised a valid issue and that issue was addressed seriously and intelligently, and people’s perceptions of Berserk have been altered as a result of it, a universal truth isn’t necessary, or realistic. I think the only “absolute truth” in this matter is that you have to read Berserk and decide what it all means for yourself.

-Griffith

and with that I shall lock this topic, good call Griff.