Philosophy behind the Brand of Sacrifice

Blade

Master of the Simulacrum
I've been meaning to ask a few questions with regard to how the Godhand members deal with their "Sacrifices".

In ancient times (and even today) the concept of a ritual sacrifice requires that blood be spilt in the place of other blood, at least, as far as I know. I know that doesn't necessarily apply to Godhand, but the thought is this...at least based on what I know about how the Behelit works.

For a "wish" to be granted from the Behelit, the human must become a loyal apostle to Godhand AND sacrifice something "very precious" to them.

Does the Godhand consider their Apostles as "Precious" or at least valuable in a sense? The reason I ask this is because each and every dark creature that comes after Guts and Company due to his and Casca's Brand are attempting to perform the Ritual of Sacrifice, however, most weak enemies fall fairly easily, and even some greater ones, so I'm wondering if it would be possible that Guts "sacrificed" a great number of Apostles, if in that logic, the Sacrifice already took place?

I know that's weird logic, but look at the old story of Abraham trying to sacrifice Isaac: He was about to sacrifice him, but found a Lamb in the bush and sacrificed that instead. Blood for Blood. Eye for Eye, Tooth for Tooth. By that logic you'd think Guts paid his dues (as far as Griffith's Wish is concerned anyway) a couple hundred times over.

I guess my main question is: How much blood is the Brand worth?

This of course assumes that Godhand themselves are bound by certain limitations set by the Evil Ideal, such as the concept of Causality, which leads me to my next question:

What's the likelyhood the Godhand are bound by any sort of Catch 22 in their own "flawed" (at least, to ours and Guts eyes) logic?

Lastly, and these are more of aside questions that have no relevance to this topic:

1. Does Puck have a Split Personality?

2. I've been told that the Beast is a manifestation of Gut's Anger, but I have this slight feeling it's more than that, as I've noted some interesting clues with regard to the Berserker Armor. First of all, Gurunberd's Armor is that of a Dragon, and also I've noted that the Serpent Lord wears Serpent-like Armor...this leads me to think that various Knights in different parts of the Story have Themed Enchanted Animal Armor...Guts' just happens to be that of a Wolf. I also believe Griffith's armor is Hawk Themed (obviously) and the Prophesy points to certain aspects of there being a Hawk or at least a large bird. My logic is that there are various Animal-like Armor in Berserk that belong to several apostles but that they allow their wearers to transform into said animals. Which is also a semi-reference to the Guin Saga if memory serves. Anyone have any ideas with regard to this?
 

Walter

Administrator
Staff member
Blade said:
In ancient times (and even today) the concept of a ritual sacrifice requires that blood be spilt in the place of other blood, at least, as far as I know. I know that doesn't necessarily apply to Godhand, but the thought is this...at least based on what I know about how the Behelit works.
The sacrificial ceremony facilitates evil, which empowers the Idea of Evil. At least, that's my spin on things. But that's a very basic gloss-over of what occurs. In truth, what we know is scattered and abstract (and all in vol13). What is certain is that the Idea of Evil benefits from the sacrifices.
Does the Godhand consider their Apostles as "Precious" or at least valuable in a sense? ... so I'm wondering if it would be possible that Guts "sacrificed" a great number of Apostles, if in that logic, the Sacrifice already took place?
Individual apostles are fodder to God Hand. Notice Femto's use of them in the Eclipse. As for the sacrifice theory, the sacrifice has to be valuable to the user. And I don't think Guts really... well yeah. Anyway, Guts isn't capable of making a sacrifice. He's branded.

What's the likelyhood the Godhand are bound by any sort of Catch 22 in their own "flawed" (at least, to ours and Guts eyes) logic?
Could you be more specific? But generally, I really doubt Miura would make this a major plot point.
:void: "Argh! Our hands are tied! Damn this stupid causality paperwork!"

1. Does Puck have a Split Personality?
Miura draws Puck in two distinct forms which reflecting his ... wacky nature.

2. I've been told that the Beast is a manifestation of Gut's Anger, but I have this slight feeling it's more than that, as I've noted some interesting clues with regard to the Berserker Armor. First of all, Gurunberd's Armor is that of a Dragon, and also I've noted that the Serpent Lord wears Serpent-like Armor...this leads me to think that various Knights in different parts of the Story have Themed Enchanted Animal Armor...Guts' just happens to be that of a Wolf. I also believe Griffith's armor is Hawk Themed (obviously) and the Prophesy points to certain aspects of there being a Hawk or at least a large bird. My logic is that there are various Animal-like Armor in Berserk that belong to several apostles but that they allow their wearers to transform into said animals. Which is also a semi-reference to the Guin Saga if memory serves. Anyone have any ideas with regard to this?
I sincerely doubt it. Anyways, Berserk's Armor was originally a Skull. The Beast simply takes advantage of the armor's power and usurps control over it. It's not wolf armor.

As for the rest, I'm relatively certain the animal motif is just one of Miura's traits in character design and personality association. It's just cool looking, ya know? Unless you want to speculate Isidro will find Monkey armor? :isidro:
 

kimchan

"Should I be overcome by the vapors?
Blade said:
In ancient times (and even today) the concept of a ritual sacrifice requires that blood be spilt in the place of other blood, at least, as far as I know. I know that doesn't necessarily apply to Godhand, but the thought is this...at least based on what I know about how the Behelit works. For a "wish" to be granted from the Behelit, the human must become a loyal apostle to Godhand AND sacrifice something "very precious" to them.

Well, from what's been seen so far, the behelit doesn't "grant" wishes, it simply summons the God Hand. This seems to happen during times of extreme stress for the person who is meant to use it. The sacrifice must be precious to the person making it, not necessarily to the God Hand. I think that might be part of what gives it its power, since the person making the sacrifice has to essentially doom someone they hold dear to death and a hell of some sort.

Does the Godhand consider their Apostles as "Precious" or at least valuable in a sense? The reason I ask this is because each and every dark creature that comes after Guts and Company due to his and Casca's Brand are attempting to perform the Ritual of Sacrifice, however, most weak enemies fall fairly easily, and even some greater ones, so I'm wondering if it would be possible that Guts "sacrificed" a great number of Apostles, if in that logic, the Sacrifice already took place?

I get the feeling that the God Hand really don't care too much about what happens to the apostles. Guts has had a few encounters with them since the Eclipse (and his prolific apostle killing) and they were not vengeful or angry, the subject never really comes up. As for sacrificing apostles... A sacrifice must be something valued and loved by the person making it. So someone can't really just pick a random person or apostle to be their sacrifice. The Count tried this in Volume 3, by attempting to sacrifice his enemy (Guts). The God Hand would not accept this and wanted his daughter instead, because he actually loved her. And of course Guts can't make sacrifices to our knowledge because he is one already.

I know that's weird logic, but look at the old story of Abraham trying to sacrifice Isaac: He was about to sacrifice him, but found a Lamb in the bush and sacrificed that instead. Blood for Blood. Eye for Eye, Tooth for Tooth. By that logic you'd think Guts paid his dues (as far as Griffith's Wish is concerned anyway) a couple hundred times over.

I guess my main question is: How much blood is the Brand worth?

I guess the main answer is that not just any blood will do. And if we're thinking in terms of Griffith's sacrifice, this limits it even more. The only people left alive from Griffith's "Wish" are Guts and Casca. I don't think there is any way to somehow sacrifice something in their place; that's what they are. Unless something happens down the line to somehow change this, the brand is something they will probably always carry and will always mark them as sacrifices. I don't think it matters much to Griffith or God Hand at this point that these two sacrifices are still walking around. Both have seemingly gotten what they wanted/needed out of the deal. Guts and Casca are just an anomaly of sorts.

What's the likelyhood the Godhand are bound by any sort of Catch 22 in their own "flawed" (at least, to ours and Guts eyes) logic?

I guess it's possible, but somehow I have my doubts. God Hand seem to have a very deep, thorough understanding of causality and how it works. It's hard to foresee any monumental mistakes on their part. Was there anything in particular you had in mind?

1. Does Puck have a Split Personality?

Puck's just really playful and is usually the one making the jokes. And Miura seems to really enjoy throwing in references to other anime and movies, which is why Puck goes through so many costume changes. I guess he's sort of like the happy go lucky character that can be serious when he really needs to be.

2. I've been told that the Beast is a manifestation of Gut's Anger, but I have this slight feeling it's more than that, as I've noted some interesting clues with regard to the Berserker Armor. First of all, Gurunberd's Armor is that of a Dragon, and also I've noted that the Serpent Lord wears Serpent-like Armor...this leads me to think that various Knights in different parts of the Story have Themed Enchanted Animal Armor...Guts' just happens to be that of a Wolf. I also believe Griffith's armor is Hawk Themed (obviously) and the Prophesy points to certain aspects of there being a Hawk or at least a large bird. My logic is that there are various Animal-like Armor in Berserk that belong to several apostles but that they allow their wearers to transform into said animals. Which is also a semi-reference to the Guin Saga if memory serves. Anyone have any ideas with regard to this?

Well, in the Serpent Lord and Grunbeld's case, the armor may just be a reflection of their apostle forms. The former turned into a huge serpent and the latter a huge dragon. Whether or not they had this affinity before they were apostles, I can't really say. Griffith of course has always associated himself with hawks since he was first introduced in the series, so hawk-themed armor is a natural extension of that and something I think a lot of the fans would expect. I'm sure it also helps him in Midland since he's rumored to be the "Hawk of Light" among the people and this would play right into that role.

With Guts, the Beast really does appear to be a manifestation of both his anger and his desire for revenge. Guts does seem to have a few encounters with wolves and dogs, but this never seems to hold much significance to him. And like Walter mentioned, the armor Guts wears now was originally shaped like a skull ( the helmet at least). It was only after Guts put it on and was in the heat of battle that the armor changed to its current form.
 

Blade

Master of the Simulacrum
Thanks for answering most of my questions, and as far as the Godhand is concerned I figured in terms of the Logic of Causality that being: Actions have Consequences.

That they themselves would be caught up in all the actions they themselves have taken against the Human World, for lack of a better term, and all the bloodshed they have performed. The reason I say this, is because Blood seems to have some (albeit minor) value to them, what with the Brand of Sacrifice bleeding and all whenever their close to it, not to mention the very nature of Sacrifice as a type of Currency for fulfilling desires.

In a word: Vengeance.

Causality says that there are consequences to one's actions, and if they truly believe this, how can they possibly be exempt from it? Life (or rather the Killing of it) has some value to them that they respect in order to give apostles (and even other members of Godhand) an amount of Power (or a Demonic Form). Plus it apparently benefits the Idea of Evil somehow, so what's to say that they won't have their own comeuppance?

This logic of course assumes that Killing is Wrong and has Consequences in the first place.

A little big of Ironic theory here: What if Guts is doing Causality's Dirty Work?
 

Walter

Administrator
Staff member
You're overlooking the context of Causality. It's not simply that actions have consequences. Within the context of God Hand and the Idea of Evil, Causality is about orchestrating the actions of humans so that the consequences are beneficial to them.

Anyway, Griffith is Causality's whore, not Guts.
 

Aazealh

Administrator
Staff member
Sorry, I'm a bit late, just adding a few more elements of reply succinctly, forgive me if some parts sound redundant as others have covered most of the subject already (very well, too). :SK:

Blade said:
In ancient times (and even today) the concept of a ritual sacrifice requires that blood be spilt in the place of other blood, at least, as far as I know. I know that doesn't necessarily apply to Godhand, but the thought is this...at least based on what I know about how the Behelit works.

Sorry to say so, but you seem to be obsessed by blood. :isidro: But blood isn't so important as far as all of this goes. It has a role, but not major. Beherits can be "awakened" by someone's blood, but it's not absolutely required; as an exemple among others, when the Count sacrificed his wife, the beherit awakened alone on a table just from the Count's emotions.

As far as sacrifices go, it's not about blood either. It's more of a "sentimental" value, like the others said, the sacrifices have to be the most important things to each apostle, and I'm going to quote Slan from volume 3 (ranemaka13's old translation):

Slan: The sacrificial offering to the ceremony is not just a mere lump of flesh and blood.
Slan: It has to be very important and dear to your heart.

That actually contradicts a lot of what you say. So yeah, the Brand bleeds when Guts is near evil creatures, and blood as well as strong emotions can be what awakens a beherit, but that seems to be it to me. The Brand is also a very powerful curse, according to Flora, so it's not like it's just a weird wound either, it dooms one's soul to end in the Vortex.

Blade said:
Does the Godhand consider their Apostles as "Precious" or at least valuable in a sense?

Nope, as Kimchan and Walter said, the God Hand doesn't care much about apostles. Femto even states so quite clearly in volume 3.

Blade said:
The reason I ask this is because each and every dark creature that comes after Guts and Company due to his and Casca's Brand are attempting to perform the Ritual of Sacrifice

Here is what looks like a big misconception to me. The sacrifice isn't the action of killing a branded person, it's the branding in itself. Guts and Casca were sacrificed by Griffith, even though they still live. So every apostle trying to kill and eat Guts is just doing that, they're not attempting to sacrifice him, I think that point is very important. Even in the case of the beherit-apostle who sacrificed the "world around him", a giant Brand formed in the refugee camp before the mirrored Occultation. It's more about the spiritual than the material side of things.

Blade said:
First of all, Gurunberd's Armor is that of a Dragon, and also I've noted that the Serpent Lord wears Serpent-like Armor...this leads me to think that various Knights in different parts of the Story have Themed Enchanted Animal Armor...

You know, a lot of characters in Berserk have themed armors, and nothing indicates that they are enchanted. That includes Boscone, Samson, and a lot of apostles in Griffith's army, etc. Even Carcus had a bird-like helmet, not unlike real historical pieces of armor, actually. As far as the apostles' armors go, like Kimchan said it's more likely that they're just reflections of their owner's apostle form. The underlings that attacked Flora's mansion are great for that, you can clearly see that all their armors are customized (same for Locus' lancers during the Wyndham raid).

Blade said:
Which is also a semi-reference to the Guin Saga if memory serves.

Haha, the references to Guin Saga need to stop (I plan on finding the whole truth and revealing them someday though, next year maybe). :void:

Guin doesn't transform into a leopard, even though he does have a mask (not a helmet, nor an armor) attached to his face that he can't remove. He possesses incredible physical abilities too, but the story (at least what I know of it, it's pretty big) doesn't revolve around enchanted armors granting animal transformations or stuff like that.

Well... That's it, I'm done. :guts:
 
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