Author Topic: Guts = Griffith = Guts = Griffith etc. etc.  (Read 9217 times)

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Offline Griffith

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Guts = Griffith = Guts = Griffith etc. etc.
« on: December 21, 2001, 01:17:26 AM »
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I mean I can't say exactly which one is good or evil.
I think Guts and Griffith have the two at the same time.

Whatever they are, Guts and Griffith are the same, theyíre differences are only superficial and circumstantial, and Iíve always found this juxtaposition between the two most fascinating. †Itís amazing how different they can seem, simply because they look the exact opposite of each other (a device Miura is now drawing on more heavily, volume 22ís cover for example), and because Guts had no direction originally while Griffith did.

They are two of a kind; they are both self-absorbed, have incredible willpower, ruthlessness and ambition. But both are much more complicated than just these traits, they are indescribable at their cores, like real people. †Griffith lived for an impossible dream, one to justify his existence, and Guts lived for no reason at all besides the fact that he refused to die, so that his existence would not cease. But when he saw what Griffith had, he wanted it for himself. †If Griffith is bad, then Guts is just as so, he just doesnít know it, and his very refusal to acknowledge it is why he is actually worse.

After Griffith fakes his death, murders the Queen and has Guts murder those foolish enough to serve him (Guts needs to get better with foreshadowing), Griffith asks Guts straight out if he thinks he is an awful person. He deceived the Hawks, having them believe he was dead, he used people and then disposed of them like they were nothing and demonstrated that he would destroy anyone or anything that got in his way to achieve his goals; that nothing was sacred. Then he asks Guts if he was evil, and Guts said he was not.

Guts has no right to call Griffith, ďvillainĒ, Griffith has never hidden who he is from Guts, and Guts always understood and accepted Griffith and his actions, he even admired him and desired similar accomplishments, untilÖGriffithís ďevilĒ actions actually affected him that is. †Only then did Griffith become a villain in Gutsí eyes (and the eyes of so many Berserk fans), because he dared to hurt him, and because Guts is just as self-centered and selfish as Griffith ever was. †Guts could care less about how Griffith treated people, but when his turn came all of a sudden Griffith was a monster. †They are so alike, and ironically because of it, they both refuse to consciously acknowledge the other's faults in themselves.

Though, at the moment I hold Griffith in higher esteem than Guts because he is a bit more mature and has a better understanding of who he is, and he accepts it; heís more honest with himself and always has been. †Meanwhile, Guts is in denial, heís stuck where Griffith was three years ago; desperately confused emotionally and morally. †Of course, Griffithís maturity may be his biggest flaw, for although Guts is a step behind him, Guts still has the choice to walk in a different direction.

They are the same man, only at opposite ends of the spectrum. †That is why they were so attracted to each other from the beginning; itís what Griffith loved in Guts when he first saw him, and what Guts originally hated in Griffith. †Nobody else can relate to either of them except the other, thatís why they resonate with each other, why they are drawn to each other, because they can only learn to understand themselves through each other. †

-Griffith

P.S. They are unique to any man in the world except each other, in a way they are the only two people that really exist in the world, and they still have much to learn from and about the other, but in the end, the very designation of men like that dictates that only one can exist at a time, if they are to truly exist at all.

Offline trapped_soul

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Re: Guts = Griffith = Guts = Griffith etc. etc.
« Reply #1 on: December 21, 2001, 03:09:44 AM »
That makes perfect sense, griffith. This isn't even a theory. This most accurately describes the happening in berserk.

I don't know what I could possibly add at this very point...
except telling you that you did a good job on this.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »

Offline CnC

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Re: Guts = Griffith = Guts = Griffith etc. etc.
« Reply #2 on: December 21, 2001, 04:04:46 AM »
Theyre so different yet so similar.  When asked, "who of the 2 is the demon?"  ...u will get different answers.  While its true, Griffith never has hidden what he is from Guts,  what he has become is a demon in angel's clothing.  And while Guts fights on the side of good and protects those who he loves, he is very easily confused with the demons he is trying to kill.

so in short:  i agree, griffith
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »
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Offline Kenoh-Sama

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Re: Guts = Griffith = Guts = Griffith etc. etc.
« Reply #3 on: December 21, 2001, 12:32:52 PM »

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Guts has no right to call Griffith, ďvillainĒ, Griffith has never hidden who he is from Guts, and Guts always understood and accepted Griffith and his actions, he even admired him and desired similar accomplishments, untilÖGriffithís ďevilĒ actions actually affected him that is. †Only then did Griffith become a villain in Gutsí eyes (and the eyes of so many Berserk fans), because he dared to hurt him, and because Guts is just as self-centered and selfish as Griffith ever was. †Guts could care less about how Griffith treated people, but when his turn came all of a sudden Griffith was a monster. †They are so alike, and ironically because of it, they both refuse to consciously acknowledge the others faults in themselves.

Everything you said is quite true. From the Ominicient view.

However from a more grounded view...

So because Guts knew how Griffith was, he should accept it as "Oh well. I guess I should have seen it coming" or say "because I was around him I was asking for it". Should he not be upset over what took place because well "that's how he is  :)" Guts see's Griffith as his ("HIS" being the word I'm stressing. Just like if I was in Guts' shoes he would be MY villan) villan. Why should he not? Griffith has done the following things to Guts:

1) Sacrificed HIS friends
2) Raped HIS woman

People want to talk about facts. I just pointed out two facts (numbers one and two above). That did happen. After mentioning Griffith's deeds, your telling me Guts still shouldn't see Griffith as a villan. What?  ??? But I keep forgeting. That's OK because Griffith is "like that". The one issue I've always had and have always noticed is that Griffith's actions are being down played to such an extent to the point where it's not that big of a deal. Like "Hey man, it happens".  

Example. I read an old clipsheet about a week ago. A woman was raped by her boyfriend. She knew he was an aggressive guy but nothing bad ever happened. Then it unfortunatly it happened. The man's defense lawyer said that "She knew how he was. Yet she's screaming rape!! She's just trying to slander blah blah blah".  They young lady (paraphrasing as I don't remember the quote EXACTLY) said "It doesn't excuse what he did! He want too far!" Needles to say it became Jerry Springer fodder as her credibility was attacked because she should have known what he would have done. A more twisted defense argument I've never heard of.

He went "too far". Just like Griffith went too far. You do not sacrifice your friends or rape them. That's a no-no. My whole little point to all of this is because what I read sounded like "Why get mad at Griffith? He's only following his own nature?"  

I see things from a more real life stance. Believe me it's hard not to considering the shit I've seen. Maybe I put to much emphasis on the actions of Griffith. But so what? After all people are judged by their actions right?

P.S. On a side note I WAS ON TV!!! Ah, C-SPAN!! I came back from a round table panel and damn it was rowdy!! I can only imagine how rowdy it would have gotten we did a berserk round table!  ;)


« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »
Why is it so hard to be a good guy?

Offline Griffith

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Re: Guts = Griffith = Guts = Griffith etc. etc.
« Reply #4 on: December 21, 2001, 01:22:44 PM »
Good points, but you took me too literally. When I said Guts has no right to call Griffith a villain, I never meant to say that Guts has no right to be angry with Griffith, or to hate him for what heís done. †But he also has no right to look down on him for his actions. †He doesnít hate Griffith because he uses and hurts innocent people to get what he wants, he was his right hand man in this endeavor. Guts hates Griffith because he happened to hurt him to get what he wanted; he only hates Griffith for personal reasons, not for moral ones.

-Griffith

P.S. All Iím saying is, that compared to Griffith, Guts is no righteous man.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »

Offline Kazaore

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Re: Guts = Griffith = Guts = Griffith etc. etc.
« Reply #5 on: December 21, 2001, 01:32:00 PM »
Hey ... I'm sort of new around here (and a big lurker) but I had to post to say, damn Griffith, that was an awesome essay/rant/whatever. †

I always enjoy reading your posts but I agree completely with you on this. †It's always bothered me when people trash Griffith and make him out to be the villan simply because it's easy. †

and again, great post ^_^
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »

Offline Kenoh-Sama

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Re: Guts = Griffith = Guts = Griffith etc. etc.
« Reply #6 on: December 21, 2001, 01:53:09 PM »

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Good points, but you took me too literally. When I said Guts has no right to call Griffith a villain, I never meant to say that Guts has no right to be angry with Griffith, or to hate him for what heís done. †But he also has no right to look down on him for his actions. †He doesnít hate Griffith because he uses and hurts innocent people to get what he wants, he was his right hand man in this endeavor. Guts hates Griffith because he happened to hurt him to get what he wanted; he only hates Griffith for personal reasons, not for moral ones.

-Griffith

P.S. All Iím saying is, that compared to Griffith, Guts is no righteous man.


Guts is a maniac. But I can relate. Thats why I'm always Taking his POV.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »
Why is it so hard to be a good guy?

Offline puella

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Re: Guts = Griffith = Guts = Griffith etc. etc.
« Reply #7 on: December 22, 2001, 03:21:23 AM »
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so in short: †i agree, griffith

You've done again what I want to say.

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he only hates Griffith for personal reasons, not for moral ones.

good hit also!
then we'll see a man's revenge, not everybody's.
I mean Griffith is not everbody's enemy of course.
when Griffith reigns over Midland people quite well, Guts destroys Griffith blatantly- then Guts should be their enemy because he kills their beloved king who saved them from many things and brought peace.
so "methinks" it doesn't make sense that Griffith keeps good personality till the end.
there should be evil Griffith once again, who does many evil things to them even excluding Guts in order to get sorta justification for Guts' revenge.
but I want to say also that "justification" is not necessary for berserk.


Offline Chinmi

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Re: Guts = Griffith = Guts = Griffith etc. etc.
« Reply #8 on: December 22, 2001, 10:51:31 AM »
I totally agree with Ken-on-sama.  Any person with any decency should know that Griffith is a s.o.b.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »

Offline Griffith

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Re: Guts = Griffith = Guts = Griffith etc. etc.
« Reply #9 on: December 22, 2001, 01:18:27 PM »
Who said he wasnít?

-Griffith
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »

Offline eintrigga

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Re: Guts = Griffith = Guts = Griffith etc. etc.
« Reply #10 on: December 22, 2001, 04:21:40 PM »
aye, as a staunch supporter for guts=griffith theory, here's my two cents:

the only reason why guts is the "good guy" is because he  happens to be killing "the right kind of people/things"
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »
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Offline Faust

Re: Guts = Griffith = Guts = Griffith etc. etc.
« Reply #11 on: December 24, 2001, 12:17:06 AM »

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Guts has no right to call Griffith, ďvillainĒ, Griffith has never hidden who he is from Guts, and Guts always understood and accepted Griffith and his actions, he even admired him and desired similar accomplishments, untilÖGriffithís ďevilĒ actions actually affected him that is. †


Did Guts desire similar accomplishments as Griffith?  I never really picked up on that.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »

Offline The_Stick

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Re: Guts = Griffith = Guts = Griffith etc. etc.
« Reply #12 on: December 24, 2001, 12:44:50 AM »
Nice essay Griff, and good points but I more so agree with Kenoh-Sama. Even as intelligent and well argued you make your point to be on Guts being no different from Griffith, I still fail to see how Guts is just as bad as Griffith.  Sure he was his right-hand man for a time being, but Guts also regretted it sometimes.  Like take for example, the time he killed Adonis...didn't he regret that?  Guts did have remorse as to where Griffith didn't give a shit....he only cared about his dream.  
I also don't see how Guts has ambition as much as Griffith did either.  All Guts wanted basically was respect and Independence from Griffith.  Guts dream was really undefined..but whatever it was, he just wanted to achieve it on his own.  

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Guts has no right to call Griffith, ďvillainĒ, Griffith has never hidden who he is from Guts, and Guts always understood and accepted Griffith and his actions, he even admired him and desired similar accomplishments,


Being as observant and opened minded as you are, would you still say the above if what happened to Guts by Griffith happened to you?  Could you honestly defend a man, despite knowing how he was, who hurt you and others close to you? What if your family was killed by this guy?  How can you say anyone who does such a horrible things not a villain?
I don't see anyone with common sense and in the right mind who could.  

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I totally agree with Ken-on-sama.  Any person with any decency should know that Griffith is a s.o.b.


Amen to that.            
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »

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Re: Guts = Griffith = Guts = Griffith etc. etc.
« Reply #13 on: December 24, 2001, 04:16:17 PM »
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Sure he was his right-hand man for a time being, but Guts also regretted it sometimes. †Like take for example, the time he killed Adonis...didn't he regret that? †Guts did have remorse as to where Griffith didn't give a shit....he only cared about his dream. †

What about in volume seven when Griffith finds the dead boy on the battlefield, the one that wanted to be a knight, Griffith didnít even kill the child nor was he responsible for him, but he felt so awful that his dream resulted in the death of anotherís.
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I also don't see how Guts has ambition as much as Griffith did either. †All Guts wanted basically was respect and Independence from Griffith. †Guts dream was really undefined..but whatever it was, he just wanted to achieve it on his own. †

True, Guts dream was never made clear, because he didnít even know what it was, but just the possibility was enough to make him leave his friends behind. †The point is, Guts admired and wanted to be like Griffith, they both wanted to achieve something that proveed their existence made a difference. †Guts couldnít do this without destroying the dreams of others (ironically, just his leaving to get his dream immediately destroyed Griffith and his dream, interesting?). †Neither man could put himself aside for someone else (like Casca could for example), Guts proved it again when he left Casca to go hunt Femto. †The only reason Guts could leave Griffith is because he is like Griffith; Griffith had no power over him, Griffith was his friend (someone like him, on his level), but to the other Hawks, Griffith was worshipped.
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Being as observant and opened minded as you are, would you still say the above if what happened to Guts by Griffith happened to you? †Could you honestly defend a man, despite knowing how he was, who hurt you and others close to you? What if your family was killed by this guy? †How can you say anyone who does such a horrible things not a villain? I don't see anyone with common sense and in the right mind who could. †

Iím so observant in fact, that I noticed Iíve already answered that question in an above post I assume you read. Moving on, by your own definition, Guts is just as much a villain as Griffith is. †So, unless you agree with me, you have no common sense and you are not in the right state of mind (your words, not mine ;D). †The argument I seem to be getting on this (and Iím not even trying to say Griffith is a good person, just that he and Guts are very much the same man under different circumstances) is that itís okay for Guts to help Griffith do horrible things to people, or to do them on his own, but itís wrong for Griffith to do them, especially to Guts. Sympathizing with Guts is easy, we look at the entire series through his eyes and thoughts, if he hates Griffith then it's natural we should empathize and hate him too, but take an objective look at both Gutsí and Griffithís character without thinking of one as the bad guy and the other as the good guy and I think youíll find that Guts isnít good, and Griffith isnít bad, they are just two complicated, confused, and conflicted individuals caught in a power struggle between the proverbial sides of "good" and "evil", and thatís why they are great characters. †Thatís all Iím trying to say.

-Griffith

Offline Kenoh-Sama

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Re: Guts = Griffith = Guts = Griffith etc. etc.
« Reply #14 on: December 27, 2001, 10:44:37 AM »
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What about in volume seven when Griffith finds the dead boy on the battlefield, the one that wanted to be a knight, Griffith didnít even kill the child nor was he responsible for him, but he felt so awful that his dream resulted in the death of anotherís.
True, Guts dream was never made clear, because he didnít even know what it was, but just the possibility was enough to make him leave his friends behind. †The point is, Guts admired and wanted to be like Griffith, they both wanted to achieve something that proveed their existence made a difference. †Guts couldnít do this without destroying the dreams of others (ironically, just his leaving to get his dream immediately destroyed Griffith and his dream, interesting?). †Neither man could put himself aside for someone else (like Casca could for example), Guts proved it again when he left Casca to go hunt Femto. †The only reason Guts could leave Griffith is because he is like Griffith; Griffith had no power over him, Griffith was his friend (someone like him, on his level), but to the other Hawks, Griffith was worshipped.
Iím so observant in fact, that I noticed Iíve already answered that question in an above post I assume you read. Moving on, by your own definition, Guts is just as much a villain as Griffith is. †So, unless you agree with me, you have no common sense and you are not in the right state of mind (your words, not mine ;D). †The argument I seem to be getting on this (and Iím not even trying to say Griffith is a good person, just that he and Guts are very much the same man under different circumstances) is that itís okay for Guts to help Griffith do horrible things to people, or to do them on his own, but itís wrong for Griffith to do them, especially to Guts. Sympathizing with Guts is easy, we look at the entire series through his eyes and thoughts, if he hates Griffith then it's natural we should empathize and hate him too, but take an objective look at both Gutsí and Griffithís character without thinking of one as the bad guy and the other as the good guy and I think youíll find that Guts isnít good, and Griffith isnít bad, they are just two complicated, confused, and conflicted individuals caught in a power struggle between the proverbial sides of "good" and "evil", and thatís why they are great characters. †Thatís all Iím trying to say.

-Griffith


However if one were to be dubbed more of a "bad guy" then the other it would be Griffith. Is it easy to sympathize with Guts? Yeah sure. He was betrayed by his leader and lost everything. How can you not? Again it's downplaying what Griffith did. Betrayal is a big thing. It's huge. Betrayal is biblical in it's destruction and condemnation. It can not be stressed enough what he did. What Griffith did on that day is by far worse than anything Guts has ever done. So stating that Guts is as bad as Griffith makes no sense because he's not. Guts never sacrificed anybody let alone his friends. He never raped anybody let alone someone who loved him. Griffith is in his own league. Is Guts somewhat insane and disturbed? Yes. But why? Because of what Griffith did to him. Guts was as doing OK mentally before the festival occurred. He found love with Casca. He was happy. Then he lost Casca. What he wanted to do was go off with Casca and find a new life. I can say that could be seen as his dream. But Griffith destroyed that. He was a traitor who sold out the people who loved and remained completely loyal to him even after the Hawks themselves were on the run and under attack (Thanks to Griffith's own illogical †decisions)! POV this and POV that it doesn't matter because regardless of what POV you take in the end his actions can not be excused. †






Why is it so hard to be a good guy?

Offline Kenoh-Sama

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Re: Guts = Griffith = Guts = Griffith etc. etc.
« Reply #15 on: December 27, 2001, 10:52:01 AM »

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Hey ... I'm sort of new around here (and a big lurker) but I had to post to say, damn Griffith, that was an awesome essay/rant/whatever. †

I always enjoy reading your posts but I agree completely with you on this. †It's always bothered me when people trash Griffith and make him out to be the villan simply because it's easy. †

and again, great post ^_^


It's easy because it's true. Probably why people don't like it is because it's so obvious, that people refuse to take it at face value even tho' the answer is right in front of them. They expect more of an answer when there isn't any.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »
Why is it so hard to be a good guy?

Offline Griffith

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Re: Guts = Griffith = Guts = Griffith etc. etc.
« Reply #16 on: December 27, 2001, 05:51:15 PM »
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However if one were to be dubbed more of a "bad guy" then the other it would be Griffith.

Just when I thought it was over, too. =)
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He was betrayed by his leader and lost everything.

Griffith didnít betray Guts anymore than Guts betrayed Griffith, this is why point of view is important. †You said yourself you look at things from Gutsí point of view; so when he feels betrayed, to you, itís a fact that he was betrayed. Look beyond Guts point of view on this matter (for starters) and ask yourself, how did Griffith betray Guts without deceiving him? †Griffith only did what Guts TOLD him he should do only a year earlier; Guts lack of foresight doesnít constitute betrayal on Griffithís part. †Griffith felt betrayed after Guts left him, because he didnít see it coming, was he betrayed, though? No, and neither was Guts, but they both felt betrayed because they were blindsided, they were both too self-absorbed to see the desires and needs of others.
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Is Guts somewhat insane and disturbed? Yes. But why? Because of what Griffith did to him.

Griffith was insane and most definitely disturbed (physically, emotionally and psychologically) during the Eclipse, he was horribly tortured for over a year and his dream was smashed, not to mention he was being influenced and overwhelmed by God Hand, yet these circumstances donít excuse Griffith. Saying Griffith is responsible for Gutsí actions as the Black Swordsman is akin to saying Guts is responsible for the events of the Eclipse because he left Griffith.
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What he wanted to do was go off with Casca and find a new life. I can say that could be seen as his dream. But Griffith destroyed that.

If that was his dream, Griffith didnít destroy it, Guts did. †He chose to abandon Casca rather than take care of her; they could have lived safely and easily in the mine, an environment where Casca could recuperate and maybe even recover, eventually. But Guts didnít care to wait and see, instead, he abandoned her when she needed him most, and for what? †For Griffith, or more to the point, for himself and his selfish need for revenge, not revenge for her, thatís not what she needed then, revenge for himself. †When worse came to worse, did he not betray the love he swore to her?
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POV this and POV that it doesn't matter because regardless of what POV you take in the end his actions can not be excused. †

Actions alone mean absolutely nothing, here are some actions: *man A shoots man B with a gun*. Not much of story, huh? What happened? †Whoís the bad guy? Is there a bad guy? Would it help you if I named one of them Guts and the other Griffith? Circumstance and point of view do matter, very much; our whole reality is a point of view, and if you only look at the story of Berserk from the point of view of one character, you are looking at it with blinders on. †To you (and many other Griffith detractors out there) Griffith betrayed Guts and is a horrible person, the villain of the series, thatís a fact you always keep in the back of your mind when you look at Berserk; therefore, it is impossible for you to examine the characters and the story objectively and to understand it fully. †Unless, you stop thinking with that mentality; re-examine Berserk, look at it from the point of view of a different character, namely Griffith, make him the main character, the confused, misunderstood protagonist, interpret things from his point of view and attempt to understand him inside and out. Itís fine if you still dislike Griffith afterwards, if thatís the opinion you form; just make sure you form that opinion as a result of re-examining the story, and not because you re-examined the story with the intention of forming that opinon; go in without expectations. †Combine that with everything you know and understand about Guts, and then repeat the process with Casca if you like. Trust me, it makes for a much fuller, richer, and more dynamic story; a very rewarding experience for anyone that truly enjoys Berserk.
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It's easy because it's true. Probably why people don't like it is because it's so obvious, that people refuse to take it at face value even tho' the answer is right in front of them. They expect more of an answer when there isn't any.

Maybe so, but you have look to find out.

-Griffith

Offline Fishbomb

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Re: Guts = Griffith = Guts = Griffith etc. etc.
« Reply #17 on: December 28, 2001, 03:13:23 AM »
*grins* Damnit Griffith, now I know why we've missed your presence here so much. You argue this much better than I ever could. *sits back and enjoys* I agree completely.

However there are one thing which really separates Griffith and Guts. And that is the sheer scale of everything. Griffith is as monumental in his 'good' acts, as he is in his 'bad' acts. Guts on the other hand is just a very personal man, where matters of 'good and 'evil' does not stray far from his personal sphere.

Take Griffith for example. Like any other great ruler he wants to do great things. For himself? He is not afraid to make himself suffer and sacrifice as much as what he asks for his allies. He wants the dream, that magnificent thing which will prove that he can make a difference. In the process everything else is insignificant. His allies. His followers. The common soldier. His own happiness. Griffith is ready to betray everyone to reach that goal, even himself and his own feelings. He betrayed his own heart when he sacrificed Guts, and I think he was hurt as badly by it as anyone else. Just like when he llowed himself to be used by that count, it might have been for a good cause, but that didn't stop him from feeling dirty and like shit afterwards. Of course... in this case there was no aftermath since he got transformed to Femto, but what now? How much is he able to feel now? More than he shows I'll bet. Anyway... my point is that Griffith performed many evil acts. He also performed many good acts, brought peace to a country at war, probably saved lots and lots of lives. We don't see enough of that, but the extent of his worship among Midland should testify to that. It was not just because he had good hair... Does this make him good? Does this make him evil? No, it just makes him a damn politician. Look at every man or woman which have done great deeds. You will find their paths riddled with betrayed alliances, sordid secrets, adultery, misuse of their positions, rumours of murder, lost friendships... Great conquerors, generals, presidents... it is a difference in scale, but really... if we had lived in Midland and had read their newspapers, watched their television, then Griffith would be a hero just like Kennedy. Young, popular, and with lots of hidden skeletons in the closet. Griffith is a bastard. He had done terrible things. And mostly because he did not consider anything but his goal, his dream, important. And most people would agree, since his dream would mean stability and prosperity for the country and for them, while they would not be affected by his treacheries.

Does this make him different from Guts? In scale only. Guts is the guy who have never seen beyond his own horizons, who would rather leave the affairs of others alone. Why? Because he does not care. People can kill each other all they like, as long as it does not affect him and his loved ones it is fine with him. I think this is one reason why people like him so much. They can see himself in him, his dreams, his search for a direction in life. And he uses a really big sword of course. Guts is closer to the reader in a way Griffith can never be, not just because Guts is the main character who we gets to see the inside of, but because his dreams and hopes are similar to most people. Finding a few friends, having a loving woman, perfect himself at his chosen craft. Few have the drive of Griffith, to go after something so insanely large just to prove that they exist. Very few people can understand what drives him, and as such he is alien, and becomes the villain. Well, of course he is the villain, since Guts is the hero of the story. But as Griffith (not the fictional one) †said... it could just as easily have been the other way around. Guts is different from Griffith, but not neccesarily a good man.

They are both selfish bastards, who can do 'good' as well as they can do 'evil'. It is a matter of scale only. None of them lets other people and their feelings interfere with what they want to do. And the same went for Casca when she was still sane. So, two sides of the same coin, with Casca as the edge between them.

*grins* oh dear, I do ramble.

---

I find matters like these immensly interesting. And for anyone that do I can really recommend the manga series "Strain" by Buronson/Ryoichi Ikegami. It is five volumes, and tells the tale of Mayo the assassin. I won't tell anything of the plot and spoil it, but in every volume a villain is introduced, we get to know the effect he had on people, how loathsome he is, and then... suddenly matters turn around in the next volume, so that out view of the villain is changed, we get to understand why they did what they did, what drove them to it, the good sides they have. It is a very interesting series in the way it used the hero/villain myths to its own advantage. A very interesting read!
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Offline Griffith

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Re: Guts = Griffith = Guts = Griffith etc. etc.
« Reply #18 on: December 28, 2001, 04:26:59 AM »
Beautiful, it never fails to amaze me the way you express the feelings I fail to put into words so honestly and eloquently; the understanding and passion for the characters is so apparent in your words!

When I describe them, it sounds like stereo instructions. :-/

Bottom line: Iím jealous! ;D

-Griffith
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »

Offline puella

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Re: Guts = Griffith = Guts = Griffith etc. etc.
« Reply #19 on: December 28, 2001, 05:27:47 AM »
Even though the following repeated about 1,567times before, I dare to make it 1,568 by adding once.

Guts doesn't represent Good part.
Griffith doesn't represent Bad part.

as you all know. :P
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »

Offline Ckrisz

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Re: Guts = Griffith = Guts = Griffith etc. etc.
« Reply #20 on: December 28, 2001, 05:42:00 AM »
My take is that Griffith is WORSE than Guts, most definitely. One could argue about Guts being self-absorbed throughout most of the anime series (I haven't read the manga beyond what I can scrape up on the Web, and I don't read Japanese), but by the end he has found his "dream" ... that is the Band of the Hawk and his love for Casca. At the end he is fighting for his friends, Griffith among them, and his love. He grows and matures, and finds his purpose. I would argue that fighting for one's friends and lover is MUCH better than fighting for one's own hubristic dream.

Of course, leaving Casca is very bad. Like Griffith, Guts is horribly scarred (Griffith by torture, Guts by the Eclipse), and goes out to seek revenge. But he didn't exactly just ditch Casca alone in the world; he left her with a caring, responsible adult who is raiisng a child and with one of his own comrades, Rickert. Also, Guts is not slaughtering innocents or his own friends. He is killing those who actively sought his own destruction, who murdered his friends and drove his lover insane. I don't see a heckuva lot wrong with this. While he seems to be going more insanely brutal over time, he still holds the moral high ground, and not just because we see the story through his eyes.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »

Offline Kenoh-Sama

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Re: Guts = Griffith = Guts = Griffith etc. etc.
« Reply #21 on: December 28, 2001, 08:50:26 AM »

I've already looked beyond Guts' point of view and acknowledge Griffith perspective along with a couple of other characters but I CHOOSE Guts perspective because in the end it is the only one that matters. I have made up my mind. I see all shades of Gray but I also see things in black and white as well. Seeing things in gray while opens your mind but doesn't help matters because inevitably a black and white view point will come in. For the most part people who see things in black in white get things done. My job alone demands that I see things from other peoples POV. I've had luncheons with middle east press people who claim bin-laden did not do the Sept 11 attacks. I had no choice but to see their point of view. It's their stupid fucking point of view. They master the art of not giving a straight answer which is all I'm looking for. That's their choice. However it's not going to stop me from my believing in my views. So enough with the blinders comment because your judgement of me is woefully inaccurate.  
It's as if no one can comprehend that even though I can see all the different angles and perspectives that in the end I can choose the view that's right in front of me.
BACK to berserk. It's not fair to say Guts is to blame for Griffithís fall. Guts never told Griffith to go seduce the princess. Griffith did that on his own. But lets say you do. Then when does responsibility come in? Or is this another one of your "actions mean nothing" answers? Griffith is responsible for his own actions.
What heinous act has Guts ever done that is equal to what Griffith has done? How are they equal in that respect?  

Justify what Griffith did. Justify why he raped Casca and Killed his men. A flat out answer. No cheerleading character shrine type hazy answer. Like I typed up there all Iím looking for is a straight answer.
Berserk has a shonen set up. Shonen comics themselves are not complicated. Griffith's new army is a shonen army. Each guy has a technique different from each other (The strong guy, fast guy, weapons expert and so on. It is getting that Hokuto No Ken feel)  In that shonen set up Griffith is the villain of the series. If raping the main character's woman and killing his friends is not enough to warrant naming Griffith the villain of the series than I don't know what will. Guts is the main character of the series. Berserk is Guts' series. Griffith is Guts' villain. Griffith is the villain of Berserk.  

P.S. Man this is fun. Arguing with you over fiction is much more exciting than arguing with fucking policy analyst.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »
Why is it so hard to be a good guy?

Offline eintrigga

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Re: Guts = Griffith = Guts = Griffith etc. etc.
« Reply #22 on: December 28, 2001, 12:06:05 PM »
hmm..just curoius, why don't we have a poll or something like that?

huh, methinks all of these "ethic talks" make my post look stupid
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »
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Offline Kenoh-Sama

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Re: Guts = Griffith = Guts = Griffith etc. etc.
« Reply #23 on: December 28, 2001, 01:54:55 PM »

Quote

hmm..just curoius, why don't we have a poll or something like that?

huh, methinks all of these "ethic talks" make my post look stupid


Heh. Don't sweat it. Besides there would be arguments over what the poll question would be. One word can change the whole dynamic of the poll. This argument will be picked up again later on. ;D

To bad there is no laughing icon.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »
Why is it so hard to be a good guy?

Offline Griffith

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Re: Guts = Griffith = Guts = Griffith etc. etc.
« Reply #24 on: December 28, 2001, 02:02:48 PM »
First let me clear something up (if anything needs to be cleared), Iím not trying say that Griffith isnít the story's antagonist, that is as clear to me an everyone else, Iím not arguing against the basic mechanics of pretty much any story here. †But he isnít a villain, and thatís what makes him such a good antagonist, the perspective could easily be flipped to make him the good guy.
Quote

So enough with the blinders comment because your judgement of me is woefully inaccurate. †
It's as if no one can comprehend that even though I can see all the different angles and perspectives that in the end I can choose the view that's right in front of me.

Sorry if I offended you there, it was comment that could easily be taken the wrong way, it was in response to what you said about seeing things from Guts viewpoint and that thereís no need to look for anything deeper, I disagree wholly, but I meant no disrespect, I was being sincere with my suggestion at the time.
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It's not fair to say Guts is to blame for Griffithís fall. Guts never told Griffith to go seduce the princess. Griffith did that on his own. But lets say you do. Then when does responsibility come in? Or is this another one of your "actions mean nothing" answers? Griffith is responsible for his own actions.

That was my point, so is Guts, he not just Griffithís victim. †And I said actions ALONE mean nothing, and Iím talking mostly about the concept of betrayal. You say Griffith betrayed and murdered his friends, well, thatís open to interpretation. †I say, Griffith didnít betray anybody; he killed a couple of hundred people at the worst, the fact that they were the Band of the Hawk, our beloved heroes, does not make him evil. †He was already sacrificing them for his dream the whole time, day by day, the Eclipse was simply a different, albeit more direct, way of doing it. †The Hawks were never, ever his friends, if they thought so, too bad. †They betrayed themselves for following him and his dream, and for not living their own lives and suffering gor their own dreams (they were using him too, even Judeau admitted so, he also said nobody was really close to Griffith, he couldn't even desribe what kind of person he was to Guts). †Guts echoed this sentiment as the Black Swordsman, if youíre fighting for someone elseís dream; you deserve whatever ill fate you get. †He said it to justify the death of innocent people because of him (Iím pretty sure he laughed at them too); the irony seemed lost on him though.
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What heinous act has Guts ever done that is equal to what Griffith has done? How are they equal in that respect? †

Easy, he killed thousands of people in the name of self-preservation.
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Justify what Griffith did. Justify why he raped Casca and Killed his men. A flat out answer. No cheerleading character shrine type hazy answer. Like I typed up there all Iím looking for is a straight answer.

Give me a G!!! Give me an R!!! Give me aÖBLARRGH!!!

Flat out, no fluff? He followed Gutsí advice.
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If raping the main character's woman and killing his friends is not enough to warrant naming Griffith the villain of the series than I don't know what will.

This is why I added the disclaimer at the top, Iím not saying Griffith isnít the, ďvillain if the storyĒ, just that he and Guts are remarkably similar people, heís only the villain because the story is from Guts point of view, but heís no more wicked than Guts. †And like I said above, Griffith didn't murder any friends of his, Guts wasn't even his friend, only someone on his level could be his friend, someone willing to kill him for his dream. About raping Casca, donít even get started on the Griffith/Femto dynamic, Iíll never argue that again, lets just say Griffith did it so he could be reborn, yet another selfish act.
Quote

P.S. Man this is fun. Arguing with you over fiction is much more exciting than arguing with fucking policy analyst.

You said it, man. †Itís great to have an interesting debate with an intelligent individual on a worthwhile subject. †The last big debate I had on Berserk was about "Elf-Men" with paradiselost. †And people wonder why I have to get away sometimes. =)

-Griffith

P.S. w00t! My 22ís just arrived (could be guns, yaí know). ;D