Author Topic: Do you think Griffith saw Guts as a tool or a friend? (pre-eclipse)  (Read 16877 times)

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Offline Tell Me Why

It's kind of hard to tell, really. I just finished buying reading volume 8 and it had a lot of comments about how Guts was sort of just a tool, but moments where him and Griffith really seemed like pals. But the one that stood out the most was Griffith's line before the 2nd battle. It went something like.. "If I can't have him.. I don't care!" just before having thoughts of killing Guts.

What do you guys think?

Offline Alucalb

Re: Do you think Griffith saw Guts as a tool or a friend? (pre-eclipse)
« Reply #1 on: August 06, 2005, 01:27:11 AM »
Actually, the line went "I don't care! If I can't have him..." 'Cause you made it sound like Griffith wouldn't care if he can't have Guts. :P

For me, it is kind of hard to determine exactly what's going through Griffith's mind in that scene (even with the thought bubbles). Is he that possessive of the things he's won? Does he feel he can't go any further without Guts at his side, yet is also willing kill him so no one can use Guts against him? Or maybe Guts means a lot more to him than just an irreplacable asset.

« Last Edit: August 06, 2005, 01:37:46 AM by Alucalb »

Offline Walter

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Re: Do you think Griffith saw Guts as a tool or a friend? (pre-eclipse)
« Reply #2 on: August 06, 2005, 02:29:27 AM »
If Guts was just a tool to him, then why all the drama about "You're the only one who made me forget my dream" or "I came here to stand before you in my new body... to see if my heart would waver upon seeing you"

Doesn't sound like the sort of thing I say to my hammer.

Anyway, how can you have that opinion after reading volume 8, and how Griffith reacts to Guts leaving?  It's spelled out rather concretely.
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Offline CnC

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Re: Do you think Griffith saw Guts as a tool or a friend? (pre-eclipse)
« Reply #3 on: August 06, 2005, 04:28:05 AM »
I don't think theres really much debate here.  Of course Griffith saw Guts as more than a tool.  The real question is how much he's changed now.  We've gotten indication theres still lingering emotion (the demon-child).  We'll see.

Doesn't sound like the sort of thing I say to my hammer.

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Offline Opie

Re: Do you think Griffith saw Guts as a tool or a friend? (pre-eclipse)
« Reply #4 on: August 07, 2005, 08:21:42 AM »
He lost that fight because of how much he cared about Guts, Judos comments give how Griffith(along with his own) felt away perfectly. He didn't have the same intesity that he usually had and he didn't have the patients to let Guts walk into his duel plan.
My school was the open road. Pain and suffering, my textbooks. My teachers, the gypsies and rapscallions I met along the way. The only constant in my life was art. For you see boys and girls I, Manny Coon, am enslaved to the harshest mistress of all, my muse... That bitch rode the right side of my brain for all she was worth. Always driving me on to find that shade of blue that makes you cry, that red that makes you hot. And always... always, to paint bigger, and better, tits. - Manny Coon

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Do you think Griffith saw Guts as a tool or a friend? (pre-eclipse)
« Reply #5 on: August 07, 2005, 11:18:58 AM »
He lost that fight because of how much he cared about Guts

He lost because Guts was stronger than him.

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Re: Do you think Griffith saw Guts as a tool or a friend? (pre-eclipse)
« Reply #6 on: August 07, 2005, 12:03:09 PM »
Griffith treated Guts as his "equal/friend". But it seemed like Guts didn't see it (Reason he left the Hawks I believe).

He lost because Guts was stronger than him.

Damn right! :guts:

Offline Tell Me Why

Re: Do you think Griffith saw Guts as a tool or a friend? (pre-eclipse)
« Reply #7 on: August 07, 2005, 03:25:26 PM »
Griffith treated Guts as his "equal/friend". But it seemed like Guts didn't see it (Reason he left the Hawks I believe).

I thought the reason Guts left was because Griffith only thought someone was his equal if they followed their own dream and didn't blend into another's. And so, Guts wanted to be equal or surpass Griffith by following his own dream.. which is why he left. Don't know.. just my interpretation.

Offline EndlessSky

Re: Do you think Griffith saw Guts as a tool or a friend? (pre-eclipse)
« Reply #8 on: August 07, 2005, 06:17:10 PM »
Well, I defiantly think Griffith considered him a friend, since he would risk his own life for him, and treated him like no other, and he says "Out of the thousands and thousands of comrades only you made me forget my dream" As for Guts leaving the Hawks when he did, It think it was a lot of different reasons instead just one, one being he wanted Griffith to consider him as a friend, but he over heard him talking to princess and saying something like "the man that would be my friend, must be equal to me in all regards, and something about having his own dream to follow, that and Guts wanted to make something for himself, and everything, Also I think it is insane to believe that Griffith let him win, since he valued Guts so much and considered him a friend, and if he let him win he wouldn't have been so depressed and irrational like he was that led him to seduce the princess.

Offline Triggormortis

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Re: Do you think Griffith saw Guts as a tool or a friend? (pre-eclipse)
« Reply #9 on: August 07, 2005, 07:51:46 PM »
It's strange that a post is made about this now, since I recently found out that I didnt read all of book 8 for some strange reason. Seeing the Guts leaving scene certainly answers a few questions I've had.
But since we've already seemed to have answered the main question this topic poses, I'd like to know something: Have a missed anything else that has happend around this time? Like, where does Guts go when he leaves on his quest from his journey? Pretty much, what happend from the time Guts leaves, to the time Griffith makes a move on Charlotte and is imprisoned?
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Offline Opie

Re: Do you think Griffith saw Guts as a tool or a friend? (pre-eclipse)
« Reply #10 on: August 07, 2005, 08:22:37 PM »
I thought Judeau said they were equals right before the duel? It was a long drawn out confrontation with everyone throwing in there comments and the general consensus was that they were equals with Guts being the more versatile fighter because of his large sword and his emotional one up on Griffith at the moment.
My school was the open road. Pain and suffering, my textbooks. My teachers, the gypsies and rapscallions I met along the way. The only constant in my life was art. For you see boys and girls I, Manny Coon, am enslaved to the harshest mistress of all, my muse... That bitch rode the right side of my brain for all she was worth. Always driving me on to find that shade of blue that makes you cry, that red that makes you hot. And always... always, to paint bigger, and better, tits. - Manny Coon

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Do you think Griffith saw Guts as a tool or a friend? (pre-eclipse)
« Reply #11 on: August 07, 2005, 09:05:56 PM »
I thought the reason Guts left was because Griffith only thought someone was his equal if they followed their own dream and didn't blend into another's.

Most importantly, he said that to be his friend, you'd have to be his equal, and follow your own dream.

Well, I defiantly think Griffith considered him a friend, since he would risk his own life for him, and treated him like no other

Whatever Guts really meant for him, he never admitted it, and certainly not to Guts himself. To elaborate a bit over what people already said, I believe Griffith's feelings for Guts to have evolved over time. I think that he always "forced" himself to consider his men as "tools" for the sake of his dream, because he couldn't possibly allow any empathy if he were to get what he wanted.

Now, from the beginning he was struck by something in Guts, and if I can believe that at first he saw him as "just" a valuable advantage on the battlefield, I think that eventually what was there at first grew bigger, in spite of Griffith not acknowledging it, or refusing to. In the end, Guts made him forget his dream, and that's all the proof you need about Griffith's true feelings. He just never admitted it, probably not even to himself.

As for Guts leaving the Hawks when he did, It think it was a lot of different reasons instead just one, one being he wanted Griffith to consider him as a friend, but he over heard him talking to princess and saying something like "the man that would be my friend, must be equal to me in all regards, and something about having his own dream to follow, that and Guts wanted to make something for himself, and everything

That doesn't amount to "a lot" of reasons, you know. :beast: And what you say is correct, but pretty much everyone agrees about about this anyway, there isn't much mystery in Guts leaving the Hawks.

Have a missed anything else that has happend around this time? Like, where does Guts go when he leaves on his quest from his journey? Pretty much, what happend from the time Guts leaves, to the time Griffith makes a move on Charlotte and is imprisoned?

Well, if you haven't read that part of the manga at all, you'll be in for a few nice moments. Beginning of volume 9 is SK time. :SK: Then Griffith is imprisoned, but things are much more detailed and complicated that in the anime if that's your only reference. After that the Hawks get ambushed, and it fades to Guts fighting at the tournament, and later the Hawks' camp being attacked. Only then again, things are different and much more interesting.

If you want to know if Guts had a specific goal when he left, he didn't, he just travelled erratically, searching to improve his fighting skill. That's when he met Godot, among other things. All of the small details are in the manga, the parts about Godot and Erica are shown in short flashbacks, etc. Basically from volume 8 until the Occultation, a lot of things were cut in the anime, so you're really missing something if you don't read that part of the manga.

I thought Judeau said they were equals right before the duel?

He thinks to himself at one moment that "their powers are equal/equivalent", but that's really just a character speculating to himself using what he knows, not the definite truth... Griffith lost spectacularly, and that's not because he cared about Guts or hadn't as much "intensity" as in his other fights, the comments you mention in that scene all say that he's dead serious and concentrated. Guts was just better by then, and is that really surprising? Griffith was a general, not a front line soldier.

It was a long drawn out confrontation with everyone throwing in there comments and the general consensus was that they were equals with Guts being the more versatile fighter because of his large sword and his emotional one up on Griffith at the moment.

Not really, they all say one thing or another (except Pippin), Rickert yells at Guts and asks him why he wants to leave, Casca wants someone to stop the fight, Carcus wants to see Guts defeated of course, but Judo thinks that things might be different, since Guts has become so impossibly strong over the years. Casca thinks to herself that Griffith will stop Guts from leaving and that they'll all stay together. Other than that it's Guts and Griffith's own thoughts.

Offline Opie

Re: Do you think Griffith saw Guts as a tool or a friend? (pre-eclipse)
« Reply #12 on: August 07, 2005, 09:41:01 PM »
Then what was the point of him saying anything at all? Pippin wasn't givin anything to say because there was nothing the audience needed to know anymore, Griffith and Guts were equeals until Griffith shoots off before he should and got himself beat.
My school was the open road. Pain and suffering, my textbooks. My teachers, the gypsies and rapscallions I met along the way. The only constant in my life was art. For you see boys and girls I, Manny Coon, am enslaved to the harshest mistress of all, my muse... That bitch rode the right side of my brain for all she was worth. Always driving me on to find that shade of blue that makes you cry, that red that makes you hot. And always... always, to paint bigger, and better, tits. - Manny Coon

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Do you think Griffith saw Guts as a tool or a friend? (pre-eclipse)
« Reply #13 on: August 07, 2005, 09:46:00 PM »
Then what was the point of him saying anything at all?

What's the point of Rickert commenting about Zodd and SK's duel? Or Zodd and Guts? Or any side character during any fight? What's the point of Carcus saying that he hopes Guts gets beaten? :schierke:

Pippin wasn't givin anything to say because there was nothing the audience needed to know anymore

No, he didn't say anything because he's the silent type. :schierke:

Griffith shoots off before he should and got himself beat.

Griffith followed his plan to the letter, he didn't "shoot off before he should". He even says "alright" or "good" (depending on how you'd translate it) during the attack, just before the swords clash. His plan was to counterstrike, to deviate Guts' attack and wound him (that's what he always did against him in the past), but it failed because Guts was more skilled and slowed down his own attack so as to strike Griffith's sword from "behind", therefore preventing any kind of riposte.

Griffith was weaker than Guts. He lost.

Offline Triggormortis

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Re: Do you think Griffith saw Guts as a tool or a friend? (pre-eclipse)
« Reply #14 on: August 08, 2005, 12:36:16 AM »
Well, if you haven't read that part of the manga at all, you'll be in for a few nice moments. Beginning of volume 9 is SK time. :SK: Then Griffith is imprisoned, but things are much more detailed and complicated that in the anime if that's your only reference. After that the Hawks get ambushed, and it fades to Guts fighting at the tournament, and later the Hawks' camp being attacked. Only then again, things are different and much more interesting.
If you want to know if Guts had a specific goal when he left, he didn't, he just travelled erratically, searching to improve his fighting skill. That's when he met Godot, among other things. All of the small details are in the manga, the parts about Godot and Erica are shown in short flashbacks, etc. Basically from volume 8 until the Occultation, a lot of things were cut in the anime, so you're really missing something if you don't read that part of the manga.

kk thnx. Yeah, I read all of that. I think there was just something wrong with my copy of my #8. But since it just came out in English, I got it and read it again. Kind  of a bummer though that we don't get to see Guts on his adventures away from the Hawks (or the newly knighted White Phoenix). I guess the only real important thing Guts finds is Goddo.
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Offline Aazealh

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Re: Do you think Griffith saw Guts as a tool or a friend? (pre-eclipse)
« Reply #15 on: August 08, 2005, 12:38:37 AM »
I guess the only real important thing Guts finds is Goddo.

Well, I find Skull Knight and Silat important, too. :SK:

Offline Ravenus

Re: Do you think Griffith saw Guts as a tool or a friend? (pre-eclipse)
« Reply #16 on: August 22, 2005, 04:13:07 PM »
Well i think Griffith was in love with Guts. So i htink he saw him as more than either of those things. think about it griffith wanted guts as his lover. thats why guts was the only one who could make griffith lose his cool.

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Do you think Griffith saw Guts as a tool or a friend? (pre-eclipse)
« Reply #17 on: August 22, 2005, 04:44:57 PM »
think about it griffith wanted guts as his lover.

What elements lead you to this conclusion?

Offline Ravenus

Re: Do you think Griffith saw Guts as a tool or a friend? (pre-eclipse)
« Reply #18 on: August 22, 2005, 07:45:10 PM »
Well if you really think about it its obvious the way griffith rushed into danger when ever guts was in trouble the way he looked at and talked to guts. like i had said before guts was the only one who could make him lose his cool when guts left it broke griffith completely made him go insain like he was dumped by his lover inwhich he loved dearly. the way griffith realized he was under guts' "spell" when they were saving him from the dungeon. it all makes sense...Griffith loved guts and wanted him as his lover, also cant forget the Mayor, Griffith slept with for funds which shows that the fact guts is a guy wouldn't play a factor in him loving him.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2005, 07:47:04 PM by Ravenus »

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Do you think Griffith saw Guts as a tool or a friend? (pre-eclipse)
« Reply #19 on: August 22, 2005, 08:15:09 PM »
Well if you really think about it its obvious the way griffith rushed into danger when ever guts was in trouble the way he looked at and talked to guts. like i had said before guts was the only one who could make him lose his cool when guts left it broke griffith completely made him go insain like he was dumped by his lover inwhich he loved dearly.

Nothing obvious in that, just your interpretation of the story, which doesn't take a lot of things into consideration.

cant forget the Mayor, Griffith slept with for funds which shows that the fact guts is a guy wouldn't play a factor in him loving him.

Gennon wasn't a mayor, and I think you missed the point of that scene.

Offline Ravenus

Re: Do you think Griffith saw Guts as a tool or a friend? (pre-eclipse)
« Reply #20 on: August 22, 2005, 08:47:35 PM »

Gennon wasn't a mayor, and I think you missed the point of that scene.

well what ever he was.... i know the point of the scene is that griffith would have done what ever it took to achieve his goal, but ,he did sleep with a man to get what he wanted and i still think he was in love with guts. but you see i dont think they were lovers...guts is to macho for that sort of thing lol besides in the end guts realized he loved casca.....i think you need to watch the whole box set again and really pay attention to how griffith looks at nd speaks to guts and i think you will see what im talking about.  :guts:

of course this is all a little less obvious in the mangas sinse no voice overs and stuff lol but really

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Do you think Griffith saw Guts as a tool or a friend? (pre-eclipse)
« Reply #21 on: August 22, 2005, 10:45:40 PM »
i know the point of the scene is that griffith would have done what ever it took to achieve his goal, but ,he did sleep with a man to get what he wanted

Yeah, he slept with Charlotte to get what he wanted too, that's not exactly proving your point. And the morning following his business with Gennon, he didn't look like he was unaffected.


you see i dont think they were lovers...

There's really no doubt about that you know...

i think you need to watch the whole box set again and really pay attention to how griffith looks at nd speaks to guts and i think you will see what im talking about. of course this is all a little less obvious in the mangas sinse no voice overs and stuff lol but really

Well, no offense buddy, but I don't think I need to watch the anime again. I wouldn't recommend you to base yourself on the anime to deduce anything concerning Berserk either. :SK:

Offline Ravenus

Re: Do you think Griffith saw Guts as a tool or a friend? (pre-eclipse)
« Reply #22 on: August 23, 2005, 03:11:29 PM »
well if you still dont believe me i found a site that explains it better check this out and you might rethink the situation lol

http://leuchtfeuer.piranho.at/yaoi_engl.html

dont get me wrong i love berserk its my favorite but thats just my opinion on Griffith and Guts "relationship" lol maybe ill send an email to kentaro and ask him

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Do you think Griffith saw Guts as a tool or a friend? (pre-eclipse)
« Reply #23 on: August 23, 2005, 03:41:07 PM »
Could you stop double posting please? If you want to add something to your posts, edit them.

well if you still dont believe me i found a site that explains it better check this out and you might rethink the situation

Long winded demonstration filled with incorrect facts and biased interpretations, comically so at times. The author says so himself beforehand and thus I'm not going to waste my time disproving him or anything like that. Sadly I think it might denote a misunderstanding of some important parts of the story, but it mostly just shows nothing apart from the desperate will of presenting Berserk as legitimately "yaoi".

There have been a lot of discussions about Guts and Griffith's relationship here, with good and pertinent points coming from both parts, and each can have his opinion on the question, but don't go affirming things if you can't back them up with more than a link. Try to run a search about it here if you want a variety of points of view.

thats just my opinion on Griffith and Guts "relationship"

Well that's perfectly fine, as long as you realize it's just that.

lol maybe ill send an email to kentaro and ask him

Right... :schierke:

Offline CnC

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Re: Do you think Griffith saw Guts as a tool or a friend? (pre-eclipse)
« Reply #24 on: August 23, 2005, 03:48:04 PM »
well if you still dont believe me i found a site that explains it better check this out and you might rethink the situation lol

http://leuchtfeuer.piranho.at/yaoi_engl.html

dont get me wrong i love berserk its my favorite but thats just my opinion on Griffith and Guts "relationship" lol maybe ill send an email to kentaro and ask him

Wow, what sub-par translations lol

Oh, Aaz beat me to this post lol He pretty much summed up what I was going to say lol

Ravenus, welcome to the board, but please use a period to end your sentences lol  :troll:
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