Author Topic: Do you think Griffith saw Guts as a tool or a friend? (pre-eclipse)  (Read 16807 times)

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Offline Ravenus

Re: Do you think Griffith saw Guts as a tool or a friend? (pre-eclipse)
« Reply #25 on: August 23, 2005, 05:19:22 PM »
Right... :schierke:

well i could try to send him an email lol.

LMAO yeah i have a problem with puncutation...and spelling. lol

But please dont get me wrong.  I DO NOT classify Berserk as Yaoi.

And thanx for the welcome
« Last Edit: August 23, 2005, 05:23:56 PM by Ravenus »

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Do you think Griffith saw Guts as a tool or a friend? (pre-eclipse)
« Reply #26 on: August 23, 2005, 05:27:35 PM »
well i could try to send him an email lol

You'd need to know his email address for that, and I don't think you do (I don't think anyone here does). As for the yaoi thing, don't worry, I was referring to the article you linked. :SK:

Offline Ravenus

Re: Do you think Griffith saw Guts as a tool or a friend? (pre-eclipse)
« Reply #27 on: August 23, 2005, 05:55:33 PM »
oh. well you might be able to find a contact email on a website or something. ill look into it if i do email him i will post his reply here if youd like..thats if i can find his email or at least a contact email.

Offline CnC

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Re: Do you think Griffith saw Guts as a tool or a friend? (pre-eclipse)
« Reply #28 on: August 23, 2005, 06:19:05 PM »
oh. well you might be able to find a contact email on a website or something. ill look into it if i do email him i will post his reply here if youd like..thats if i can find his email or at least a contact email.

wow, dude, wow...  having trouble formulating a response to that

don't expect to get anywhere.  I guess that pretty much sums it up.
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Offline TheSkyTraveller

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Re: Do you think Griffith saw Guts as a tool or a friend? (pre-eclipse)
« Reply #29 on: August 23, 2005, 08:04:43 PM »
Yeah, if you ever find his e-mail I hope you're fluent in Japanese.  I'm sure he'll write back, it's not like he's busy or anything.... :schierke:
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A voice said, Look me in the stars
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If all the soul-and-body scars
Were not too much to pay for birth.
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Offline Rhombaad

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Re: Do you think Griffith saw Guts as a tool or a friend? (pre-eclipse)
« Reply #30 on: August 23, 2005, 09:44:10 PM »
Yeah, you're never going to find his e-mail.  Miura keeps to himself and is insanely private.  I've only seen one picture of the guy (he was winning an award or something).  He didn't even allow himself to be filmed while being interviewed for that extra feature on one of the American DVD volumes. :miura:

Offline Ravenus

Re: Do you think Griffith saw Guts as a tool or a friend? (pre-eclipse)
« Reply #31 on: August 24, 2005, 01:35:47 PM »
hey i found his site with contact info

http://www.younganimal.com/berserk/

btw my brother speaks Japanese
« Last Edit: August 24, 2005, 01:48:58 PM by Ravenus »

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Do you think Griffith saw Guts as a tool or a friend? (pre-eclipse)
« Reply #32 on: August 24, 2005, 01:55:39 PM »
hey i found his site with contact info

http://www.younganimal.com/berserk/

No, you found nothing, or at least nothing new. Everybody knows about the Berserk Official Corner here, and many members speak Japanese. Now please stop posting about that in this thread, it's not leading anywhere.

Offline Ravenus

Re: Do you think Griffith saw Guts as a tool or a friend? (pre-eclipse)
« Reply #33 on: August 24, 2005, 01:56:51 PM »
lol you guys are kinda mean here huh. but ok ill stop the subject

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Do you think Griffith saw Guts as a tool or a friend? (pre-eclipse)
« Reply #34 on: August 24, 2005, 02:18:32 PM »
lol you guys are kinda mean here huh. but ok ill stop the subject

Just sparing you useless efforts buddy, you shouldn't see any mean intention behind that. The Berserk Official Corner is well known in the community, as a simple search would have informed you.

It has a "Your Voice" section where you can send feedback to some guy at Young Animal, but there's almost no chance your message would ever land in Miura's inbox. Feel free to try and contact him though, but keep in mind that others did and failed in the past, so don't be too confident if you don't want to be too disappointed.

If you ever get any serious result, make a triomphant thread about it in the Berserk Miscellaneous section. :beast:

Offline CnC

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Re: Do you think Griffith saw Guts as a tool or a friend? (pre-eclipse)
« Reply #35 on: August 24, 2005, 02:21:27 PM »
lol you guys are kinda mean here huh. but ok ill stop the subject

Not trying to be "mean" or display any real form of emotion when I state that you're going to have no luck trying to contact miura.  I'm just trying to level with you on the subject.

damn, Aaz. Everytime I get that warning that someone has posted a new reply since I started typing I shake my fist in the air and shout "AAAAAAAAAAAZ!"  And i'm usually right about who it was.
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Offline Aazealh

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Re: Do you think Griffith saw Guts as a tool or a friend? (pre-eclipse)
« Reply #36 on: August 24, 2005, 02:42:40 PM »
damn, Aaz. Everytime I get that warning that someone has posted a new reply since I started typing I shake my fist in the air and shout "AAAAAAAAAAAZ!"  And i'm usually right about who it was.

Not my fault if you're always late. :badbone:

Offline Ravenus

Re: Do you think Griffith saw Guts as a tool or a friend? (pre-eclipse)
« Reply #37 on: August 24, 2005, 08:28:25 PM »
i was kidding about the mean thing lol. 

Offline xbigvmanx

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Re: Do you think Griffith saw Guts as a tool or a friend? (pre-eclipse)
« Reply #38 on: August 24, 2005, 09:01:46 PM »
Well you know how Guts admires Griffith soo much as this great light of glory and hope during the golden age story?  Well it kind of reveals that when Griffith's was captured by the King of Midland he also saw Guts as this great light of hope and glory as well.  Griffith definition of someones friend is someone who has a dream and willing to defend that dream even against his own. What seperates Guts from the other Hawks was Guts initially defended his own dream against Griffith in their first dual. Griffith sees Guts as his equal and Guts never realized it.  And its proven time and again why Griffith continues to stick his neck out for Guts and doesn't even order him when Griffith asked him to do his work.  I don't think Griffith sees Guts as his equal at all. I think he sees Guts something higher then him at least that was before everything turned to crap.

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Do you think Griffith saw Guts as a tool or a friend? (pre-eclipse)
« Reply #39 on: August 25, 2005, 12:16:30 AM »
Guts initially defended his own dream against Griffith in their first dual.

Guts just defended himself, his freedom and his pride. He had no dream.

doesn't even order him when Griffith asked him to do his work.

Well, Guts did dirty jobs for Griffith and never complained nor objected... He even never told anybody about it, kept the secret because he was asked to.

I don't think Griffith sees Guts as his equal at all. I think he sees Guts something higher then him at least that was before everything turned to crap.

Though Guts was definitely very precious to Griffith, I don't think he saw him as "higher" than himself...

Offline xbigvmanx

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Re: Do you think Griffith saw Guts as a tool or a friend? (pre-eclipse)
« Reply #40 on: August 25, 2005, 01:36:19 AM »
Guts just defended himself, his freedom and his pride. He had no dream.

It may not be a dream per se but it was something that Guts valued the most in his younger years and that he had no intentions of joining Griffith band in the first place.  Griffith admired that in Guts on the fact he was defending something precious to him which was as you said his freedom and pride regardless of whether Guts had a dream or not.

Quote
Well, Guts did dirty jobs for Griffith and never complained nor objected... He even never told anybody about it, kept the secret because he was asked to.

But that's the point i am trying to make. Griffith didn't treat Guts like a soldier. He didn't order him like he would to a normal soldier. Read again how Griffith was trying to persuade Guts to assassinate the King's brother. He talks about conspiracies and such but Guts just told him, "its not like you why don't you just order me"

Quote
Though Guts was definitely very precious to Griffith, I don't think he saw him as "higher" than himself...

I think he does and that it was proven when Guts went down to Windham to free Griffith. Griffith was talking to himself that he sees a blind light and that blinding light was Guts. It's proven time and again that he stuck his neck out for guts countless times. And you have to question why does someone like Griffith position saves a soldier like Guts even when they were young?  Another fact was when Griffith encounters Guts in the field of swords and Griff mentions how he was worried that encounter Guts might cause some kind of impact.

Offline asmer

Re: Do you think Griffith saw Guts as a tool or a friend? (pre-eclipse)
« Reply #41 on: August 25, 2005, 07:15:09 AM »
And you have to question why does someone like Griffith position saves a soldier like Guts even when they were young?
He saved him because he realized that Guts could be useful in achieving HIS (Griffith's) Dream. He knew that WITH Guts, all what he had always wanted to happen, finally could! In that sense, at that time, Guts was only a tool for him to use, IMHO.

Another fact was when Griffith encounters Guts in the field of swords and Griff mentions how he was worried that encounter Guts might cause some kind of impact.
I am not sure that's what he said, it is more like he wanted to verify if he had the slightest "culpability" feeling, and it seems he hadn't. I don't think he was worried at all?!...

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Do you think Griffith saw Guts as a tool or a friend? (pre-eclipse)
« Reply #42 on: August 25, 2005, 12:22:49 PM »
Please be careful when quoting, I had to rectify your quotes twice already.

It may not be a dream per se

No, it's not a dream at all, no need to elaborate I think. Guts has been saying that he had no dream quite a number of times in the series, it's not really open to speculation.

Griffith admired that in Guts on the fact he was defending something precious to him

He didn't admire the defense of something precious, just his fighting spirit and the way he'd do anything to win a fight... I'd like you to quote parts of the manga if you were to insist about that.

Griffith didn't treat Guts like a soldier. He didn't order him like he would to a normal soldier.

Because Guts wasn't a normal soldier, but the best soldier of the Band of the Hawks, the one that Griffith couldn't do without?

I think he does and that it was proven when Guts went down to Windham to free Griffith. Griffith was talking to himself that he sees a blind light and that blinding light was Guts. It's proven time and again that he stuck his neck out for guts countless times.

That's not a proof of what you're saying, you know. While he was tortured, Griffith became even more obsessed with Guts than he already was, seeing him as the cause of his demise. At that time Griffith was in a position of inferiority, obviously, and the memory of Guts obnubilated him. But that still doesn't back up what you said, since his state of mind resulted from his situation. During their last duel, Griffith saw himself killing Guts, he didn't imagine he could lose like he did, not the attitude you'd have against someone "superior"...

And you have to question why does someone like Griffith position saves a soldier like Guts even when they were young?

Because he knew his incredible potential? That's the reason he fought him, that's the reason he gave him the hardest missions from the beginning, and that's the reason he went to rescue him twice. Guts saved Casca, did he think she was superior to him? Judo saved Rickert, did he think so too?

Another fact was when Griffith encounters Guts in the field of swords and Griff mentions how he was worried that encounter Guts might cause some kind of impact.

Griffith wanted to see if he had any kind of emotion now that he was incarnated, he certainly didn't consider Guts as superior then, or wasn't worried that he might. Like I said, Guts was precious to Griffith, a lot of scenes show it, but that's really not proving your point at all.

Offline Zoddiscute

Re: Do you think Griffith saw Guts as a tool or a friend? (pre-eclipse)
« Reply #43 on: July 24, 2013, 10:18:19 PM »
My personal take on this is that Guts was the only person that Griffith acknowledged as being a friend, and that speech at the fountain with Charlotte was misinterpreted by Guts. Griff was basically saying I don't view my comrades as being friends (except for Guts).

This is what makes the following events so tragic, Griffith Saw Guts as a friend all along, and it makes Guts and Griffith's relationship so fascinating because through Guts opposing Griffith because Griff destroyed Guts dream, Guts is in fact living up to what Griffith himself qualified to be a true equal and friend.   :isidro:

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Do you think Griffith saw Guts as a tool or a friend? (pre-eclipse)
« Reply #44 on: July 24, 2013, 10:30:23 PM »
My personal take on this is that Guts was the only person that Griffith acknowledged as being a friend, and that speech at the fountain with Charlotte was misinterpreted by Guts. Griff was basically saying I don't view my comrades as being friends (except for Guts).

This is what makes the following events so tragic, Griffith Saw Guts as a friend all along

But Griffith never actually acknowledged Guts as a friend. He stopped short of doing that. He never said "except for Guts", and when push came to shove he decided that it would be preferable for Guts to die than to leave. That's not how you treat a friend.

through Guts opposing Griffith because Griff destroyed Guts dream, Guts is in fact living up to what Griffith himself qualified to be a true equal and friend.

Guts is seeking revenge for the deaths of his comrades and the rape of his lover. He never had a dream.

Offline Zoddiscute

Re: Do you think Griffith saw Guts as a tool or a friend? (pre-eclipse)
« Reply #45 on: July 24, 2013, 11:19:54 PM »
But Griffith never actually acknowledged Guts as a friend. He stopped short of doing that. He never said "except for Guts", and when push came to shove he decided that it would be preferable for Guts to die than to leave. That's not how you treat a friend.

Guts is seeking revenge for the deaths of his comrades and the rape of his lover. He never had a dream.

Yes Griffith never explicitly states that he see's guts as a friend, but surely it is implied through his various actions towards guts? but their relationship is more complicated than being just friends, I think Griffith had mixed feelings for Guts, seeing him as a tool to suit his needs, but also as a friend, and some kind of romantic attraction as well.

Yes but Griffith says that a true friend would stand up to whoever tried to crush his dream, even if that was himself.

Didn't Guts realise his dream of being the leader of the hawks before the eclipse? and then Griffith crushed his dream.

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Do you think Griffith saw Guts as a tool or a friend? (pre-eclipse)
« Reply #46 on: July 25, 2013, 11:08:21 AM »
Yes Griffith never explicitly states that he see's guts as a friend, but surely it is implied through his various actions towards guts?

That he acted in a way that showed the reader that Guts mattered to him doesn't mean he acknowledged Guts as a friend. He didn't.

and some kind of romantic attraction as well.

There's a deliberate ambiguity in that regard, but again, nothing explicit.

Yes but Griffith says that a true friend would stand up to whoever tried to crush his dream, even if that was himself.

And? What is this responding to? My comment about how "it's not how you treat a friend"? Because if so, it's not like Guts was trying to crush Griffith's dream. He was just leaving after having done all he needed to. Griffith had no excuse for his behavior.

Didn't Guts realise his dream of being the leader of the hawks before the eclipse? and then Griffith crushed his dream.

Uhhh no. Definitely not. I don't know where you got that from.

Offline Zoddiscute

Re: Do you think Griffith saw Guts as a tool or a friend? (pre-eclipse)
« Reply #47 on: July 25, 2013, 11:38:33 AM »
That he acted in a way that showed the reader that Guts mattered to him doesn't mean he acknowledged Guts as a friend. He didn't.

There's a deliberate ambiguity in that regard, but again, nothing explicit.

And? What is this responding to? My comment about how "it's not how you treat a friend"? Because if so, it's not like Guts was trying to crush Griffith's dream. He was just leaving after having done all he needed to. Griffith had no excuse for his behavior.

Uhhh no. Definitely not. I don't know where you got that from.

No I wasn't responding to that comment, just that is an interesting statement in regard to the overall relationship between Guts and Griffith.

I think that Griffith's behaviour when Guts decides to leave shows that he valued him as more than a friend, saying something along the lines of ' if I can't have you, then no one will' is the kind of thing a possessive lover would say if their partner tried to leave them, so it goes deeper than Griffith regarding him as a friend, its closer to a lover, not in a sexual sense, more an emotional sense.

I remember in the Anime how the Hawks want to Guts to lead them, and Guts reflects on how maybe this is what he's been searching for all along, and that he had found his place in the world, thus realising his dream.

Online Walter

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Re: Do you think Griffith saw Guts as a tool or a friend? (pre-eclipse)
« Reply #48 on: July 25, 2013, 11:52:18 AM »
I remember in the Anime how the Hawks want to Guts to lead them, and Guts reflects on how maybe this is what he's been searching for all along, and that he had found his place in the world, thus realising his dream.
That's not what Guts says. He talks about finding a place to belong, and lamented that he didn't realize he had a place there until it was gone.
:femto: :slan: :ubik:

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Do you think Griffith saw Guts as a tool or a friend? (pre-eclipse)
« Reply #49 on: July 25, 2013, 11:55:32 AM »
I think that Griffith's behaviour when Guts decides to leave shows that he valued him as more than a friend, saying something along the lines of ' if I can't have you, then no one will' is the kind of thing a possessive lover would say if their partner tried to leave them, so it goes deeper than Griffith regarding him as a friend, its closer to a lover, not in a sexual sense, more an emotional sense.

That's not what he thought, and details matter here. Anyway, you don't try to kill someone you love. That's not what love is. And people can be possessive without loving. You can decide to destroy an asset rather than have it fall into someone else's hands, though. It's the reasoning Griffith followed here. That's how he worded it to Guts and to himself too.

Like I said, there's an ambiguity about Griffith's feelings for Guts, and it's purposeful, but it's just that, an ambiguity.

I remember in the Anime how the Hawks want to Guts to lead them, and Guts reflects on how maybe this is what he's been searching for all along, and that he had found his place in the world, thus realising his dream.

You're not remembering things properly. Guts never found himself a dream. And really, you would be better off basing yourself on the manga when it comes to fine analysis of the story.