Author Topic: Do you think Griffith saw Guts as a tool or a friend? (pre-eclipse)  (Read 16820 times)

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Offline Zoddiscute

Re: Do you think Griffith saw Guts as a tool or a friend? (pre-eclipse)
« Reply #50 on: July 26, 2013, 02:47:48 AM »
That's not what he thought, and details matter here. Anyway, you don't try to kill someone you love. That's not what love is. And people can be possessive without loving. You can decide to destroy an asset rather than have it fall into someone else's hands, though. It's the reasoning Griffith followed here. That's how he worded it to Guts and to himself too.

Like I said, there's an ambiguity about Griffith's feelings for Guts, and it's purposeful, but it's just that, an ambiguity.

You're not remembering things properly. Guts never found himself a dream. And really, you would be better off basing yourself on the manga when it comes to fine analysis of the story.

From what your saying it sounds like you think that Griffith viewed Guts a a valuable assent and nothing more? why then would Griffith be so broken when Guts leaves and act so irrationally by sleeping with Charlotte to try and heal his pain? He had pretty much achieved his dream at that point, he didn't really need Guts anymore to further his dream in any case.

The point im trying to make about Guts dream, is that the conversation at the fountain with Charlotte is very significant of Guts and Griffiths relationship, in that Griffith states that a true friend would pursue his own dream and stand up to even Griffith himself if he crushed his dream, which is what Guts is now doing, he may be the only one who can can save Griffith from the evil that he has become, and Griffiths true friend in that sense.

I see Griffith more as a tragic villain who was put in an impossible situation and has been tainted by Evil since, I liked Griffith pre Eclipse, so I find this kind of thing interesting. But I understand that other people may not see Griffith in that way.

I guess it depends on whether you think Griffith was always Evil, or corrupted, but I guess either way he was following what fate had set for him and was powerless to it.

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Do you think Griffith saw Guts as a tool or a friend? (pre-eclipse)
« Reply #51 on: July 26, 2013, 09:46:02 AM »
From what your saying it sounds like you think that Griffith viewed Guts a a valuable assent and nothing more?

No, I think it was more than that.

why then would Griffith be so broken when Guts leaves and act so irrationally by sleeping with Charlotte to try and heal his pain?

First off, it's an exaggeration to say Griffith was "broken". Second, see the other thread as to why he slept with Charlotte. It really isn't hard to understand.

He had pretty much achieved his dream at that point, he didn't really need Guts anymore to further his dream in any case.

He was a ways from achieving his dream, as the king still stood in his way, but it was within his grasp. Anyway, you have to understand that Guts had come to be more than a great fighter for Griffith. He was the ace in his sleeve, the one thing that never failed. Griffith relied on him not just as a trump card on the battlefield but as an emotional crutch as well. Casca tells Guts as much during their talk at the waterfall.

Griffith had huge goals, an ambition that was impossible and yet was managing to get there. But despite his confident facade, he had doubts (who wouldn't?). He needed reassurance, and Guts provided that. Guts didn't question him and took care of the dirty jobs that Griffith didn't even want the others to know about. So when he left, that dealt a blow to Griffith's confidence, doubly so because it hadn't occurred to him that he actually could lose. To him that day the options were either to defeat Guts and keep him in check, or to kill him trying to do so. But to lose?

Really, his reaction isn't very surprising.

The point im trying to make about Guts dream, is that the conversation at the fountain with Charlotte is very significant of Guts and Griffiths relationship, in that Griffith states that a true friend would pursue his own dream and stand up to even Griffith himself if he crushed his dream, which is what Guts is now doing, he may be the only one who can can save Griffith from the evil that he has become, and Griffiths true friend in that sense.

Let's just make it clear man: Guts did not have a "dream". He still does not have one. That whole "dream" thing was Griffith's philosophy and it just didn't fit Guts, despite his earnest attempt to find one for himself. Griffith's talk at the fountain is irrelevant here. His definition of what a friend would be to him (a most peculiar one, by the way) just doesn't matter anymore. Guts has been fighting to avenge the death of his friends and the rape of his girlfriend. That's it. No "dream" here, just vengeance.

And Guts does not want to "save Griffith from evil", he wants to kill him. The choice to sacrifice was not made by Femto, remember.

I see Griffith more as a tragic villain who was put in an impossible situation and has been tainted by Evil since, I liked Griffith pre Eclipse, so I find this kind of thing interesting. But I understand that other people may not see Griffith in that way.

I guess it depends on whether you think Griffith was always Evil, or corrupted, but I guess either way he was following what fate had set for him and was powerless to it.

Always Evil with a capital E? Corrupted? That doesn't really mean anything.

Griffith was a man, a very ambitious man. Not necessarily a good man, but he wasn't all bad either. His life had been planned since before his birth by a superior entity (the Idea of Evil) so that it would lead to him sacrificing what was most precious to him, his men, in order to become Femto. The choice was his to make, and he made it. Was he manipulated into it? Absolutely. Does that absolve him? Not as far as I'm concerned, but he has extenuating circumstances.

Offline Metal_Bear_Rex

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Re: Do you think Griffith saw Guts as a tool or a friend? (pre-eclipse)
« Reply #52 on: July 26, 2013, 01:17:11 PM »
Griffith was his only friend and greatest asset. There was a lot of emotional baggage attached to Guts.

Offline Zoddiscute

Re: Do you think Griffith saw Guts as a tool or a friend? (pre-eclipse)
« Reply #53 on: July 26, 2013, 01:46:30 PM »
Evil with a capital E, hahaha lol. yeah just mentioned it as seen a lot of discussions on whether Griffith was always evil.

But yeah evil is too simple a definition for Griffith.

I mean corrupted as in through being tortured and then manipulated by the God hand to make the decision to sacrifice. They fucked him up real good, poor Griff.

Yeah maybe i'm reading to much into Griffiths fountain speech, the original Anime kind of emphasises the romantic side of the story, and ive seen the Anime more times than ive read the Manga, I'm currently rereading the Manga though. 

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Do you think Griffith saw Guts as a tool or a friend? (pre-eclipse)
« Reply #54 on: July 26, 2013, 02:14:02 PM »
Griffith was his only friend and greatest asset.

You mean Guts was Griffith's only friend and greatest asset, right?

I mean corrupted as in through being tortured and then manipulated by the God hand to make the decision to sacrifice. They fucked him up real good, poor Griff.

Well corrupted might not be the proper word for it, but yeah he certainly was led to the decision he took. Both his spectacular rise and his quick fall served that purpose.

Yeah maybe i'm reading to much into Griffiths fountain speech, the original Anime kind of emphasises the romantic side of the story, and ive seen the Anime more times than ive read the Manga, I'm currently rereading the Manga though.

Don't be mistaken, that speech is important. But it's important because of the effect it has on Guts at the time. It's the main drive for him to leave the Band of the Falcon. And I do agree that Guts was the closest thing to a friend that Griffith had, but like I said, Griffith himself probably didn't realize it then.

Offline Zoddiscute

Re: Do you think Griffith saw Guts as a tool or a friend? (pre-eclipse)
« Reply #55 on: July 26, 2013, 02:54:28 PM »
Yes it's tragic because Griffith is unaware that Guts overheard and Griffith doesn't understand Guts decision to leave and later takes it as an offence to him.

Can I go off topic a bit and ask a question, There's the line that Griffith says to Guts before the Beherit activates, 'something along the lines of 'if you touch me now, then I will never forgive you' I this the correct translation of what he is saying?

This line has always confused me as to what it is supposed to mean and why Griffith would say it at this point.


Offline Metal_Bear_Rex

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Re: Do you think Griffith saw Guts as a tool or a friend? (pre-eclipse)
« Reply #56 on: July 26, 2013, 03:36:16 PM »
You mean Guts was Griffith's only friend and greatest asset, right?

Ah, my bad. Yes that's exactly what I meant.

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Do you think Griffith saw Guts as a tool or a friend? (pre-eclipse)
« Reply #57 on: July 26, 2013, 06:40:47 PM »
Can I go off topic a bit and ask a question, There's the line that Griffith says to Guts before the Beherit activates, 'something along the lines of 'if you touch me now, then I will never forgive you' I this the correct translation of what he is saying?

In the manga, it's: "I will never again be able to..."

It was cut short from the original version, prepublished in Young Animal. It was: "I will never be able to forgive you again."

The canon version is the one in the manga. What the knowledge of the original version implies is that at that moment of utter despair, Griffith didn't want Guts' pity and helpfulness. It would have been, was, too much for him to bear, since he irrationally blamed him for what had happened to him.

Offline Zoddiscute

Re: Do you think Griffith saw Guts as a tool or a friend? (pre-eclipse)
« Reply #58 on: July 26, 2013, 10:24:54 PM »
In the manga, it's: "I will never again be able to..."

It was cut short from the original version, prepublished in Young Animal. It was: "I will never be able to forgive you again."

The canon version is the one in the manga. What the knowledge of the original version implies is that at that moment of utter despair, Griffith didn't want Guts' pity and helpfulness. It would have been, was, too much for him to bear, since he irrationally blamed him for what had happened to him.

Cool thanks that makes more sense, ''I will  never again be able to...'' could be followed with, pursue my dream. So he is feeling more pitiful than vengeful at this point.

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Do you think Griffith saw Guts as a tool or a friend? (pre-eclipse)
« Reply #59 on: July 26, 2013, 11:13:29 PM »
Cool thanks that makes more sense, ''I will  never again be able to...'' could be followed with, pursue my dream. So he is feeling more pitiful than vengeful at this point.

Eh... I don't think that would make much sense.

Offline Zoddiscute

Re: Do you think Griffith saw Guts as a tool or a friend? (pre-eclipse)
« Reply #60 on: July 26, 2013, 11:43:38 PM »
I don't mean literally like he would have said that, but he was feeling hopeless and didn't want Guts pity as he blamed Guts for what he'd become.

I will never again to be able to achieve my dream because of you.

Offline Walter

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Re: Do you think Griffith saw Guts as a tool or a friend? (pre-eclipse)
« Reply #61 on: July 27, 2013, 12:09:42 AM »
I don't mean literally like he would have said that, but he was feeling hopeless and didn't want Guts pity as he blamed Guts for what he'd become.

I will never again to be able to achieve my dream because of you.
That moment of despair was not about Griffith's dream though. That was already over, he tried to kill himself and failed. No, this moment was all about Griffith feeling powerless, and it's tied closely to his feelings of hatred and friendship for Guts. To be pitied by him, after all that happened, it would have been rock bottom.

That's as simply as I can put it, but it's very difficult to explain better than how Miura did it on the page. Needless to say, it doesn't need amending.
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Offline Doc

Re: Do you think Griffith saw Guts as a tool or a friend? (pre-eclipse)
« Reply #62 on: July 28, 2013, 01:33:57 PM »
The irony is that Guts was a "friend" to Griffith, he just didn't know it until Guts bested him and left the Hawks. By then it was too late because it coincided in his ego falling apart and the comfort sex with Charlotte to make himself feel empowered again. And the rest, as they say, is history...

Offline Zoddiscute

Re: Do you think Griffith saw Guts as a tool or a friend? (pre-eclipse)
« Reply #63 on: July 28, 2013, 02:23:47 PM »
Let's just make it clear man: Guts did not have a "dream". He still does not have one. That whole "dream" thing was Griffith's philosophy and it just didn't fit Guts, despite his earnest attempt to find one for himself. Griffith's talk at the fountain is irrelevant here. His definition of what a friend would be to him (a most peculiar one, by the way) just doesn't matter anymore. Guts has been fighting to avenge the death of his friends and the rape of his girlfriend. That's it. No "dream" here, just vengeance.

Maybe the term 'dream' doesn't really apply to Guts, his version of a dream is just to swing his sword for himself and no one else, to find his own battles, the line from Griff's fountain speech 'If anyone where to trample that dream, he would fight them body and soul, even if that person was myself' It is reinstated on many occasions in the Manga though, like when Guts makes his war declaration after the eclipse, that's why I find it kind of ironic that by Guts fighting against Griffith and getting revenge he is in a way living up to Griffiths ideal of a friend that he mentions at the fountain speech. Not that Griff or Femto would care or realize though. 

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Do you think Griffith saw Guts as a tool or a friend? (pre-eclipse)
« Reply #64 on: July 28, 2013, 03:44:26 PM »
The irony is that Guts was a "friend" to Griffith, he just didn't know it until Guts bested him and left the Hawks.

Griffith didn't acknowledge Guts as a friend even after he bested him in combat. By that time it seems he had stopped reasoning in such terms.

Maybe the term 'dream' doesn't really apply to Guts, his version of a dream is just to swing his sword for himself and no one else, to find his own battles

Not really. You should probably re-read those scenes, as there's more to them than you make it out to be.

Offline Zoddiscute

Re: Do you think Griffith saw Guts as a tool or a friend? (pre-eclipse)
« Reply #65 on: July 28, 2013, 06:58:47 PM »
Griffith didn't acknowledge Guts as a friend even after he bested him in combat. By that time it seems he had stopped reasoning in such terms.

Not really. You should probably re-read those scenes, as there's more to them than you make it out to be.

I read them in the last couple of days, I have just finished volume 13 for the second time. what exactly do you think I'm missing here?

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Do you think Griffith saw Guts as a tool or a friend? (pre-eclipse)
« Reply #66 on: July 28, 2013, 07:25:06 PM »
I read them in the last couple of days, I have just finished volume 13 for the second time. what exactly do you think I'm missing here?

The subtlety. You summarize things in ways that don't do them justice at all. In the episode "Sparks", Guts reflects precisely on how he doesn't have a dream, and what should be taken from it is not that his "dream" is to not be controlled by somebody else, but that he doesn't want to be controlled by somebody in order to find himself a higher purpose in life.

Offline Doc

Re: Do you think Griffith saw Guts as a tool or a friend? (pre-eclipse)
« Reply #67 on: July 29, 2013, 03:58:14 PM »
Griffith didn't acknowledge Guts as a friend even after he bested him in combat. By that time it seems he had stopped reasoning in such terms.

I see what you mean. Griffith's fall from grace is such a spectacular one that he didn't really have a chance to take stock of what Guts meant to him. By the time he did, he was a tortured husk and resented Guts for what he had become.

Offline Zoddiscute

Re: Do you think Griffith saw Guts as a tool or a friend? (pre-eclipse)
« Reply #68 on: July 29, 2013, 08:55:51 PM »
So what your saying Aaz is that Griffith never saw Guts as a friend, so what he said at the fountain with Charlotte was true to how he feels about Guts as well? 

Offline Metal_Bear_Rex

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Re: Do you think Griffith saw Guts as a tool or a friend? (pre-eclipse)
« Reply #69 on: July 29, 2013, 09:48:26 PM »
I don't believe Griffith recognized how important Guts was to him and that they were truly friends until right before Griffith agreed to sacrifice him and the Hawks.

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Do you think Griffith saw Guts as a tool or a friend? (pre-eclipse)
« Reply #70 on: July 29, 2013, 11:06:06 PM »
So what your saying Aaz is that Griffith never saw Guts as a friend, so what he said at the fountain with Charlotte was true to how he feels about Guts as well?

Yeah. He didn't murmur to himself "except Guts" as he told her those words.

Offline Oburi

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Re: Do you think Griffith saw Guts as a tool or a friend? (pre-eclipse)
« Reply #71 on: July 30, 2013, 01:58:18 AM »
Yeah. He didn't murmur to himself "except Guts" as he told her those words.

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Offline Zoddiscute

Re: Do you think Griffith saw Guts as a tool or a friend? (pre-eclipse)
« Reply #72 on: July 30, 2013, 11:43:33 AM »
Yeah. He didn't murmur to himself "except Guts" as he told her those words.

Maybe he was just showing off in front of Charlotte so she would think he was cool and icy like a boss, 'I'm so badass I don't need no friends!'  :griffnotevil:

Guts was more than friend its obvious Griffith loves Guts. He didn't want Charlotte to know he actually has a crush on Guts.

Do you think Guts leaving was just about overhearing that conversation, or did he start to resent what Griffith made him do after a awhile?  :sad:

Offline Walter

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Re: Do you think Griffith saw Guts as a tool or a friend? (pre-eclipse)
« Reply #73 on: July 30, 2013, 11:48:40 AM »
Maybe he was just showing off in front of Charlotte so she would think he was cool and icy like a boss, 'I'm so badass I don't need no friends!'  :griffnotevil:

Guts was more than friend its obvious Griffith loves Guts. He didn't want Charlotte to know he actually has a crush on Guts.

Do you think Guts leaving was just about overhearing that conversation, or did he start to resent what Griffith made him do after a awhile?  :sad:
Just.... stop.
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Offline Aazealh

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Re: Do you think Griffith saw Guts as a tool or a friend? (pre-eclipse)
« Reply #74 on: July 30, 2013, 12:38:32 PM »
Maybe he was just showing off in front of Charlotte so she would think he was cool and icy like a boss, 'I'm so badass I don't need no friends!'

...No.

Guts was more than friend its obvious Griffith loves Guts. He didn't want Charlotte to know he actually has a crush on Guts.

...No.

Do you think Guts leaving was just about overhearing that conversation, or did he start to resent what Griffith made him do after a awhile?

Was likely a mix of both. What happened with Adonis certainly didn't leave Guts unscathed. Anyway, I think I've answered enough questions of yours on that topic.