Author Topic: How does Berserk incorporate Aristotle's the idea of Evil and the Klein Bottle?  (Read 4219 times)

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Offline Mugwump101

:???: How does Berserk incorporate Aristotle's the idea of Evil and the Klein Bottle? What exactly is Aristotle's idea of Evil, how can it be explained? Which book of Aristotle does it contain this information about the idea of Evil?

Whoever wrote this said: "Incoporating advanced concepts such as the Klein Bottle and Aristotle's Idea of Evil, Miura constantly flexes his scientific and philosophical muscles to his fans and researchers." under who created Berserk, series FAQs.

I'm rather curious about this subject and it's just interesting to know.... Yeah, I'm a clueless idiotic person who can't put two with two together sorry...
"If you're always worried about crushing the ants beneath you...you won't be able to walk."

Offline Walter

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It's good of you to ask, as I should have attached links to those two subjects.

The Klein bottle is "a certain genus-1 non-orientable surface, i.e. a surface (a two-dimensional topological space), for which there is no distinction between the "inside" and the "outside" of the surface." (wikipedia)  The form of the Klein Bottle is a four-dimensional object in three dimensional space.  So, when Void uses it to deflect Skully's attack at the eclipse, its use implies Void uses fourth-dimensional space to redirect the attack.  Of course, only math and Berserk nerds would catch the reference.

Aristotle and Plato both forwarded their own concepts of the Idea of 'Good'. Plato's fits the metaphysical realm of Forms, where Aristotle's sits more comfortably in rhetorical terms.  In relation to Berserk, Plato's definition actually is more applicable because of his Forms relation to the Ideal world (no doubt one of Miura's influences in mapping out the Berserk metaphysical universe):  "The supreme Idea is the Idea of the Good, whose function and place in the world of Ideas is analogous to that of the sun in the physical world. Plato saw his task as that of leading men to a vision of the Forms and to some sense of the highest good" (A summary of Plato's work).

The Idea of Good in Plato's terms would be the direct counterpart to the Idea of Evil; the Form of evil, which dominates and permeates the Ideal world of humanity in Berserk.

I'm sure someone more affluent in philosophy could give you a better explanation. I just dab my hand in the subject, personally.
:femto: :slan: :ubik:

Offline Mugwump101

Thank you so much for your informative reply! :guts: It's very interesting to note especially the way it also concerns The Idea of Good and Plato.

By the way, Do you perhaps know what are the titles of the books on the Idea of Evil? I know Plato's was The Republic, right? for the Idea of Good. But what about Aristotle?
"If you're always worried about crushing the ants beneath you...you won't be able to walk."

Offline Walter

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By the way, Do you perhaps know what are the titles of the books on the Idea of Evil? I know Plato's was The Republic, right? for the Idea of Good. But what about Aristotle?
Plato discusses his Forms and Ideas in The Republic and Phaedo.

As for Aristotle's, as I've said before, his interpretation is more directed at morals, and as such, is much less applicable to Berserk. But if you insist,  Aristotle outlines his Idea of Good in his 10-book series Nicomachean Ethics
:femto: :slan: :ubik:

Offline firewithin

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my first post.... so sad it took me this long. oh well, here are some other influences in BERSERK:

Nietzsche's "Beyond Good and Evil" & "Genealogy of Morals"
for those who need to brush up on their Nietzsche, he talks about such things as:

"good" and "bad" interpretations vs. "good" and "evil" interpretations
"aristocratic" vs. "part of the 'herd'"

thought it might help

Offline CnC

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hey firewithin, welcome to the boards.  Thanks.
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Offline Walter

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my first post.... so sad it took me this long. oh well, here are some other influences in BERSERK:

Nietzsche's "Beyond Good and Evil" & "Genealogy of Morals"
for those who need to brush up on their Nietzsche, he talks about such things as:

"good" and "bad" interpretations vs. "good" and "evil" interpretations
"aristocratic" vs. "part of the 'herd'"
Definitely a good call. But don't forget: "As you look into the Abyss, the abyss looks also into you."
:femto: :slan: :ubik:

Offline Mugwump101

I have another questions..... Does Plato speak of The Idea of 'Evil' or just Good? or Both? Sorry to bother you guys again...
"If you're always worried about crushing the ants beneath you...you won't be able to walk."

Offline Walter

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I have another questions..... Does Plato speak of The Idea of 'Evil' or just Good? or Both? Sorry to bother you guys again...
Nope, the Idea of Evil is Miura's creation.
:femto: :slan: :ubik:

Offline Tenro

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I think that it's also worth mentioning that in a Platonic mindset, the literal is merely a shade of the ideal form. This means that any table, for example, is simply an imperfect interpretation of the ideal table. The major difference that Miura-san brings in is almost an inverse of this relationship. Instead of the literal emulating the ideal, the ideal existances (mostly the Idea, but also the GH) are influencing the literal.

Therefore, under a Platonic philosiphy, anything and everything about the Idea is an abomination.
At the very least, I believe that was the Platonic theory. I'd hate it if I've gotten names mixed up.
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Offline JhizakYahr

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Like Walter said I'd just look into the Metaphysics by Aristotle, I am currently majoring in philosophy and I am fluent in both these ideas. Don't think to understand Berserk you need to understand these concepts, especially if your just a casual reader or even a HUGE fan, both these ideas are deep, yes, but also informative.
          Start with the Metaphysics and to get a good sense of EVIL in THAT sense(quadradimentional thoughts, really) check out existential philosophy, by Kant or look into Nietzsche's "The Antichrist". I hope that helps but remember these questions are WAY-TO-BROAD to be asked casually.
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