Discussion of "Sword of the Berserk"'s depiction of Berserk

Discussion of "Sword of the Berserk"'s depiction of Berserk

I was curious what people thought of the "Sword of the Berserk" in the context as part of the Berserk universe. I know it's not "canon" per say but I was interested in people's opinions on whether or not it actually fit the nature of the storyline and universe as created by Miura. Here's my opinion on the "Sword of the Berserk" entry and its elements...

The Main Casters

Guts: My main complaint really is that Guts is honestly too nice to everyone around him. There's a reason only Puck and Caska are with him. No one else in the world would stay with him. The travelling actress girl he would have either belted or tossed to the Mandragora within the first five minutes I think. On the other hand, they managed to keep a good deal of the tragedy of Guts intact. The fact that when he slays the Mandragora that the villagers see all the dead people that were their families and friends is a fairly powerful moment.

Puck: I'm not inclined to think too much on Puck because I hate Puck no matter what his circumstances are. It's sad that I heard a voice similiar to the whiny little fairy (in the classical sense) from the start of reading the manga. I think I recognized the voice actor too. Did he ever do the old Legend of Zelda cartoons? In any case, he came off a lot more proactive than the worthless sprite that he normally was depicted as.

Casca: Crazy, not much else to say. The whole moment where she rocked the dead baby/Mandragora was well done though. I also thought that the moment of sanity was rather poignant.

Nosferatu Zodd: I'm honestly divided about Nosferatu Zodd's appearence here. Him fighting Guts to a standstill is something that isn't very easy to shrug off. Nosferatu's depiction here is extremely well done though since his Balor like appearence makes it clear there's a huge world of difference between him and monsters like the Baron and Mandragora Boy.

Skull Knight: I'm not really sure whether or not Skull Knight following Gut's rampages and cleaning up the occult behind him is something that fits his character but damn if it wasn't cool looking.

Griffith: Weirdly, my biggest objection is that I don't think Griffith would ever consider using the Mandragora as troops. They don't fit with his "beautiful on the outside, foul on the inside" like schemes.

The New Characters

Rita: The character was just annoying as Hell and made the worst mistake of any Berserk volume by living and LIKING Guts at the end. It seemed to be an extremely weak minded person whom would actually take the nun's advice seriously. On the other hand, she did serve as a reasonable outlet for the discovery humanity sucks in the context of the Berserk universe (the beating of the cured Mandrigora was weirdly satisfying to me).

Balzac: Balzac was a well done Berserk villain honestly. His speech about spilling blood may have been overly pompous but his comparison with Guts and Casca is actually rather well done. The fact that he ultimately killed his wife to become an Apostle is something that was surprisingly effective in the context of the game. It even left a feeling of foreshadowing.

Annette: Clearly she didn't do anything important but the writers made a good choice to have her laugh at Balzac while he was dying. That's a very good "berserk" moment.

The Nun: One of the few characters that I think fits directly into the Berserk universe with no tweaking. The mad nun Erisa is pretty much perfect within the context of the story as someone who can't deal with the horrors and instead has been driven totally insane by them. Eriza's suicide is also an excellent end to the character.

Niko: This kid is the biggest flaw to me honestly. Eriza's obviously not the best judge of character to the boy's motivations but beherits don't work without a sacrifice (we know that even in the context of the game) so who the hell DID he sacrifice to become the Plant Apostle? Also, if he died in the village then what the hell was that thing Guts killed in the castle before Balzac?

The rest were pretty much ciphers in the story and unimportant.

Music

Forces II is a definite worthy addition to Berserk music even as there's no particular equivalent to Tell me why or the Ending theme.

willowhugger said:

Discussion of "Sword of the Berserk"'s depiction of Berserk

I was curious what people thought of the "Sword of the Berserk" in the context as part of the Berserk universe. I know it's not "canon" per say but I was interested in people's opinions on whether or not it actually fit the nature of the storyline and universe as created by Miura. Here's my opinion on the "Sword of the Berserk" entry and its elements...

The Main Casters

Guts: My main complaint really is that Guts is honestly too nice to everyone around him. There's a reason only Puck and Casca are with him. No one else in the world would stay with him. The travelling actress girl he would have either belted or tossed to the Mandragora within the first five minutes I think.

Click to expand...

Too nice? You should look at this in the bigger scheme of things. This (supposedly) takes place right after Albion section, where Guts leaves Godo's place with Casca and Puck, and before they meet up again with Isidro, Serpico, and Farnese. Frankly, he's been 'too nice' ever since he met Isidro, whom he neither belted nor tossed to the monsters.

Griffith: Weirdly, my biggest objection is that I don't think Griffith would ever consider using the Mandragora as troops. They don't fit with his "beautiful on the outside, foul on the inside" like schemes.

Click to expand...

The only real reason Griffith is even inferred to is through Zodd, who (my opinion, of course) was looking for apostles to recruit into the new Hawk band. I don't think he had anything at all to do with the Mandoragora.


I'm sorry you don't like Puck so much, but that's preference I guess. He's the same Puck as he is in all the other volumes and episodes.

willowhugger said:

I know it's not "canon" per say but I was interested in people's opinions on whether or not it actually fit the nature of the storyline and universe as created by Miura.

Click to expand...

First, let's make it clear again that the story of the game was written by Miura.

willowhugger said:

My main complaint really is that Guts is honestly too nice to everyone around him. There's a reason only Puck and Casca are with him. No one else in the world would stay with him.

Click to expand...

The game takes place just before Isidro, Serpico and Farnese join Guts. So I don't think your comment holds much validity here. Also, as far as being nice, I don't find him to be especially nice, no more and no less than he was at that time. He killed Job without a second of hesitation, accepted Balzac's offer only because of Casca, and didn't care about Eriza's arguments concerning the gentle and peaceful mandragorans. Various deaths of characters didn't seem to affect him too much, and the last scene shows him relatively emotionless, with Puck commenting on it.

willowhugger said:

The travelling actress girl he would have either belted or tossed to the Mandragora within the first five minutes I think.

Click to expand...

I don't think so. He didn't toss Jill to Rochine's minions when they met, nor did he leave her in trouble when he could avoid it. His reactions seemed fitting to me.

willowhugger said:

I'm not inclined to think too much on Puck because I hate Puck no matter what his circumstances are.

Click to expand...

Unfortunately, that's a pretty bad start as a Berserk fan.

willowhugger said:

In any case, he came off a lot more proactive than the worthless sprite that he normally was depicted as.

Click to expand...

No offense, but the only thing I'd call worthless here is people hating Puck without any valid reason.

willowhugger said:

I'm honestly divided about Nosferatu Zodd's appearence here. Him fighting Guts to a standstill is something that isn't very easy to shrug off.

Click to expand...

Well, they fight and then Zodd goes away. It's happened before. Guts is obviously tired too, while Zodd seems unaffected.

willowhugger said:

I'm not really sure whether or not Skull Knight following Gut's rampages and cleaning up the occult behind him is something that fits his character but damn if it wasn't cool looking.

Click to expand...

He came to take the beherit, it's an important part of the story as a whole, that bore its fruits in volume 26.

willowhugger said:

Weirdly, my biggest objection is that I don't think Griffith would ever consider using the Mandragora as troops. They don't fit with his "beautiful on the outside, foul on the inside" like schemes.

Click to expand...

Many of his demon soldiers aren't beautiful at all, on any side. Mule and Sonia's little trip through the forest in volume 23 shows it well enough I think. And it's just Zodd looking for apostles to recruit, not Griffith personally wanting Niko in his army.

willowhugger said:

The character was just annoying as Hell and made the worst mistake of any Berserk volume by living and LIKING Guts at the end.

Click to expand...

I didn't find her annoying, and it's not rare for characters to live and like Guts in the end, like Jill or Luca, Nina, etc.

willowhugger said:

It seemed to be an extremely weak minded person

Click to expand...

Not really, she seemed rather strong willed for someone her age (IMO), and went off alone in the end.

willowhugger said:

The mad nun Erisa is pretty much perfect within the context of the story as someone who can't deal with the horrors and instead has been driven totally insane by them.

Click to expand...

Well she was a mandragoran, so being mad shouldn't be surprising.

willowhugger said:

Eriza's obviously not the best judge of character to the boy's motivations but beherits don't work without a sacrifice (we know that even in the context of the game) so who the hell DID he sacrifice to become the Plant Apostle?

Click to expand...

First, Eriza's story about him can't be true, since he didn't die, so basing anything off it is tricky at best. Second, the being that was closest to him was his dog, it's my favorite theory.

willowhugger said:

Also, if he died in the village then what the hell was that thing Guts killed in the castle before Balzac?

Click to expand...

The part of his heart (mandragora heart) that Balzac had cut off when he went to get it years earlier. It's all explained in the game.

willowhugger said:

Forces II is a definite worthy addition to Berserk music even as there's no particular equivalent to Tell me why or the Ending theme.

Click to expand...

I liked all the music in the game, and they can't indeed be compared to the mediocre Tell Me Why and Waiting So Long.

yota821 said:

Frankly, he's been 'too nice' ever since he met Isidro, whom he neither belted nor tossed to the monsters.

Click to expand...

Or ever since he saved Theresia in volume 3 perhaps? He even cries after it, I guess he was already getting soft at the time.

yota821 said:

I'm sorry you don't like Puck so much, but that's preference I guess. He's the same Puck as he is in all the other volumes and episodes.

Click to expand...

The US voice actor sucks though IMHO. Puck in the game serves mostly to counterbalance Casca's lack of talk, however in general I don't see how he's "worthless" in the manga. I don't like that kind of gratuitous statement much.

Well you're right to like Puck and I fully respect your fondness for the sprite Mister Administrator man. For me though, I tend to think that he's a distraction from the serious of the tone.

*pulls out some Raid*

I do admit that quite a few of the scenes wouldn't be nearly so effective if they didn't have Puck in them. Puck provides a counterbalance to Post-Eclipse Gut's psychopathic fixation on revenge. If we didn't have Puck then we wouldn't know what Guts SHOULD be doing in a traditional fairy tale.

Still *sprays the fairy*

Next, awesome on the fact that the story was written by Mirua. That explains a great deal of what was confusing me. I just assumed that some really good fans of the work had written it. I'll check my figures next time a little better on that respect.

willowhugger said:

Well you're right to like Puck and I fully respect your fondness for the sprite Mister Administrator man. For me though, I tend to think that he's a distraction from the serious of the tone.

Click to expand...

A very good, comical, and much-needed distraction ever since the 1st volume. And he's the sole reason why Guts is still alive, and also why they're on this journey to begin with.

Long post,

The story of "Sword of the Berserk" was supposed to take place early on during the Millennium Falcon story arc, where Guts and Casca and Puck are headed towards Elfhelm before they were joined by Isidro, Farnese, and Serpico. It was the help that Guts needed with Casca that prompted him to open up a bit more.

Puck was voiced by Cam Clarke

Skull Knight was in the area shortly after Roshinu was defeated as well. He ate the beherit there, too. It's pretty likely for the sole purpose of creating his new sword.

Griffith enlists the aid of any and all apostles, regardless of how they look. If anything, the mandragora are "cute" by apostle standards.

Ritas reaction to guts was never dislike, since he saved her from the very beginning.

Niko seemed to sacrifice everything around him, as all the village seemed to turn plant. However my memory on the game is sketchy, someone step in if its something more specific.

In addition to Forces II, I liked Indra.

Keep in mind that the English version of the game is horribly translated, and contains many errors. So many of the errors to the original story you might think of are more than likely a direct result of this.


EDIT: Aw screw it, everyone beat me to it... damn. must learn to ....type...faster...

willowhugger said:

For me though, I tend to think that he's a distraction from the serious of the tone.

Click to expand...

Besides being a vital part of the manga, he's actually serious at times too, although not that often and less than before these days. And like yota821 said, the distraction he provides isn't useless, it's part of the whole that makes the manga what it is. Now you have your opinion, nothing wrong with that.

willowhugger said:

*sprays the fairy*

Click to expand...

Puck isn't a fairy actually, he's referred to as an elf and a pisky (variation for pixie). Nothing big but it's worth pointing it out I think.

willowhugger said:

Next, awesome on the fact that the story was written by Miura. That explains a great deal of what was confusing me. I just assumed that some really good fans of the work had written it. I'll check my figures next time a little better on that respect.

Click to expand...

If you buy the Berserk Visual & Story File (Dreamcast game artbook) you can actually see the original character designs he created for the game as well as the cutscenes artwork, and a lot of stuff like that. It's pretty cool and relatively cheap so if you're interested I recommend it to you.

PS: It's ok CnC, your post is complementary to the others, don't cry.

I admit that part of my problem is that Puck isn't yet a huge part of my Berserk experience. I only just finished Manga 10 and watched the series. The majority of my Berserk fandom is devoted to Griffith, Casca, and their relationship to Guts rather than the after-adventures.

However, I soon will be reading the rest of the adventures and probably (maybe) gain a bigger appreciation of the flying Elrond.

Gut's appearence in the volumes up to his flashbacks with Griffith was a near-psychotic (if not outright one) though and it seemed that he'd genuinely been driven totally insane by his experience with the Eclipse.

It's difficult for me to attach much in the way of morality to the man remaining other than "see Griffith, see Apostle, kill."

Back to Sword of the Berserk...

1. Re: The Sacrifice of the Boy

I tend to think it's the dog as well (wonderful idea). The villagers weren't branded and technically all of them would have escaped (making Guts that much rarer) when the Heart was destroyed and they were freed. We don't know if animals have souls in Berserk but it seems more emotionally poignant if he killed his only friend in the world for the power.

2. Re: Ezira

I would have honestly preferred if she was actually a human being (a demented one but human) because it lessens the importance of her line that she wants to be a Mandrigora. It also would explain her seeming cognisance. If the boy spared her life also because she was nice to him, it'd fit with Berserk's weird sense of irony too.

3. Beherit

I'm surprised to discover that beherits can be used more than once. I'd been wondering that for some time. It's a pity that we can't fast forward 250 years....maybe Guts could use the egg of the King to become a Godhand.

(kidding)

4. Rita

Well she DID call Guts a murderer for killing Job. I was actually wondering if she'd turned over Caska to the Baron when she claimed they'd been attacked. It would have been a interesting storyline choice.

willowhugger said:

I only just finished Manga 10 and watched the series. The majority of my Berserk fandom is devoted to Griffith, Casca, and their relationship to Guts rather than the after-adventures.

Click to expand...

Golden Age stuff basically. Well, wait to see what comes after.

willowhugger said:

It's difficult for me to attach much in the way of morality to the man remaining other than "see Griffith, see Apostle, kill."

Click to expand...

Yeah well, I really think you need to read more of the manga before pronouncing yourself on that matter.

willowhugger said:

it lessens the importance of her line that she wants to be a Mandrigora. It also would explain her seeming cognisance. If the boy spared her life also because she was nice to him, it'd fit with Berserk's weird sense of irony too.

Click to expand...

Well, she could have been willing to become a mandragoran and accepted it from Niko, thus retaining her consciousness in a way or another. That would tie it together.

willowhugger said:

I'm surprised to discover that beherits can be used more than once.

Click to expand...

The Snail Count used his beherit twice though, it's not really a secret. How many crimson beherits do you think there are? It's most commonly assumed that there's only one.

willowhugger said:

It's a pity that we can't fast forward 250 years....maybe Guts could use the egg of the King to become a Godhand. (kidding)

Click to expand...

Even if we fast forwarded the story to 216 years later after the Occultation, since the God Hand was completed with Femto, no new member would be needed.

willowhugger said:

Well she DID call Guts a murderer for killing Job.

Click to expand...

Yeah, and threw a dart at him. But she excused herself later on, it was just because she liked the big guy a lot.

Aazealh said:

Yeah well, I really think you need to read more of the manga before pronouncing yourself on that matter.

Click to expand...

I imagine you're right.

Good point on the nun accepting it though.

Another note that I forgot to put in earlier...

5. Griffith and the comeliness of his servants

It's noteworthy to me that there doesn't seem to be much in the way of a "spike" in Apostle numbers. Actually, it seems there's no more or less number of Apostles than there ever were but we're seeing that the majority of them had adopted comely or at least human seeming appearences.

Even Nosferatu Zodd had his disguise on.

The Mandrigora were an exception to this rule really, is what I'm saying. Basically, they appeared to be nasty the entire way through. Griffith would be hard pressed to use them without the point "Monster" and all that.

willowhugger said:

Actually, it seems there's no more or less number of Apostles than there ever were but we're seeing that the majority of them had adopted comely or at least human seeming appearences.

Click to expand...

Well, they all have a "human form" and an "apostle form" (there are a few exceptions, but they're exceptions).

willowhugger said:

Even Nosferatu Zodd had his disguise on.

Click to expand...

It's not really a disguise... He was in his human form when Guts first met him, he usually doesn't transform if he has no reason to.

willowhugger said:

The Mandrigora were an exception to this rule really, is what I'm saying. Basically, they appeared to be nasty the entire way through. Griffith would be hard pressed to use them without the point "Monster" and all that.

Click to expand...

No, mandragorans could pass for humans, albeit retarded humans. Remember when Guts and the others arrive in their village at first, they're all peaceful and human-like. It's only after a mandragora sapling is pulled out that they get aggressive and "transform". They were just "contaminated", and actually regressed back to their normal selves once the apostle was killed.

Anyway, the mandragorans weren't apostles themselves, the real apostle was Niko, it's him that Zodd wanted to "test". We only see him in his apostle form, so we don't know whether or not he could reverse back to a human form. He was definitely a special apostle anyway, and his power could have been very useful in an army (something not unlike the Daka). And really, the apostles in Griffith's army don't look normal besides Locus and Irvine, and even so, people aren't fooled by these two, see Mule's reaction to the perfectly human looking Locus in volume 23.

I don't mean to sound in any way offensive but I think you should read the manga before commenting on the parts you haven't read yet. All will be revealed then.

CnC said:

I don't mean to sound in any way offensive but I think you should read the manga before commenting on the parts you haven't read yet. All will be revealed then.

Click to expand...

With all due respect right back at you, I'm only commenting on what I've already seen and read (including this one). Even if Puck becomes Snake Plisken in the future manga, I still didn't like him earlier during the volumes that he appeared.

However, I am taking your advice. I was initially hesitant about downloading manga (a friend gave me a japanese 10 with translations). Nevertheless, I should be done within a week or so. I intend to participate on far more topics after I feel myself ready to contribute.

Good point on the Mandrigora being able to pass for human Aazealh

willowhugger said:

I was initially hesitant about downloading manga

Click to expand...

And there shouldn't be any reason for it to change, really. Scanlations aren't very reliable to be truthful, and they're of course illegal. If you don't want to wait for Dark Horse to publish the manga, you can always buy the original edition and use translations like you did for the one your friend gave you.

Anyway, don't hesitate to search the board for older topics, they should prove enlightening.

Illegalities aside (I've alerted the feds to all of your mp3s! you're ALL going down!!), the scanlations are at times HORRIBLY inaccurate. So if anything there would be even more confusion from reading them. I'd recommend doing what aaz suggested and getting the originals. I can understand a certain impatience with DH's releases.

I really am not willing to wait 5 or so years to catch up to the current rank everyone else is at this point. I will, of course, buy the manga as they come out. I just don't want to have my opinions dismissed out of hand until I am finished at this point ;-)

I will confess that I do think the Guts in the Berserk game isn't necessarily that off from the real guts. Even at his worst in the "Golden Age intro" manga, Guts wasn't a pure psychopath. He was never a particularly 'good' guy but he oddly seemed to be getting better even as it progressed....and I think it's also possible the author decided to change a few things about the character along the way.

This is a tad off topic though.

I am curious though...

1. What sort of mistakes were made in the English translation?

2. Do you think that at this point the people are getting more used to monsters around them? (As opposed to previously them being completely absent save in legend)

The townsfolk hated and persecuted the Mandrigora (and presumably the people cured of it---which I find curiously satisfying), but they weren't particularly in shock over it's existence. It seems people are getting more and more used to the demons acting more publically where even the White Hawks totally freaked out in Nosferatu Zodd's first appearence.

willowhugger said:

Even at his worst in the "Golden Age intro" manga

Click to expand...

That's the Black Swordsman arc, it's a different part, not the Golden Age.

willowhugger said:

1. What sort of mistakes were made in the English translation?

Click to expand...

It includes modifying the story to make it simpler (that was in the game anyway), using incorrect designations and spellings, Zodd's dialogue being wrong, etc. For more information, go ahead and use the forum's search engine.

willowhugger said:

2. Do you think that at this point the people are getting more used to monsters around them?

Click to expand...

Not normal people, no. But with the way things are going, it might be the case later on in the story. Ganishka sure is giving it a try.

willowhugger said:

The townsfolk hated and persecuted the Mandrigora (and presumably the people cured of it---which I find curiously satisfying), but they weren't particularly in shock over it's existence.

Click to expand...

It wasn't anything new to them, they had had time to get used to it.

Aazealh said:

That's the Black Swordsman arc, it's a different part, not the Golden Age.

Click to expand...

That was a typo on my part and not a mistake of facts.

In any case, thanks everyone and I'm up to volume 20 at this point.

I should be finished by the end of monday.

And I will have more perspective to give.

While we're on the topic of this game Aazealh have you seen the "Baron Balzac" "Disciple Balzac" thing I was talking about yet?

willowhugger said:

I should be finished by the end of monday.

And I will have more perspective to give.

Click to expand...

First you'll read a maximum of threads so that you don't post redundant things.

-rob- said:

While we're on the topic of this game Aazealh have you seen the "Baron Balzac" "Disciple Balzac" thing I was talking about yet?

Click to expand...

No, I had long since forgotten about it. I'm just taking your word on it, I don't have enough motivation to plug my Dreamcast just to check.

willowhugger said:

That was a typo on my part and not a mistake of facts.

In any case, thanks everyone and I'm up to volume 20 at this point.

I should be finished by the end of monday.

And I will have more perspective to give.

Click to expand...

I can't reiterate enough that you should probably give the series a deep reading rather than a brisk skimming through. Otherwise you'll just get corrected and flamed by less restrainable personalities on the board... like me.

Walter said:

I can't reiterate enough that you should probably give the series a deep reading rather than a brisk skimming through. Otherwise you'll just get corrected and flamed by less restrainable personalities on the board... like me.

Click to expand...

I'm not giving it a brisk read.

And don't worry, if you're wrong. You're wrong.

;-)

willowhugger said:

I'm not giving it a brisk read.

And don't worry, if you're wrong. You're wrong.

;-)

Click to expand...

Back at ya, Winky

willowhugger said:

Well you're right to like Puck and I fully respect your fondness for the sprite Mister Administrator man. For me though, I tend to think that he's a distraction from the serious of the tone.

Click to expand...

Well that's a shakesperean (is that a word ) trait. The idea of having hints of comedy in a tragedy. It opens people up and when tragedy strikes it makes them feel greater sorrow.

Hell yeah community college creative writting.

One "t" in writing, Maiku
He doesn't like puck. Thats his problem. No point in my reiterating whats already been said..

willowhugger said:

I really am not willing to wait 5 or so years to catch up to the current rank everyone else is at this point. I will, of course, buy the manga as they come out. I just don't want to have my opinions dismissed out of hand until I am finished at this point ;-)

Click to expand...

Make sure your opinions are informed, and there won't be a problem...

willowhugger said:

I will confess that I do think the Guts in the Berserk game isn't necessarily that off from the real guts.

Click to expand...

That is the "real" Guts. I don't think anything he does is off character in the game.

willowhugger said:

1. What sort of mistakes were made in the English translation?

Click to expand...

The biggest area of confusion is the conversation between Zodd and Guts. Heres a post Walter did which discussed it.